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- That long form webinar is still the one that really converts the highest. - We see it work extremely well. And when you look at all these people's webinars you don't have to copy them, just look at the format. (bright music) - The average person, an entrepreneur who's got that business that's, you know, from startup to let's say $10 million a year in revenue, right? It's like so many people are in that range. Do you think it's best to master marketing, like try to become your own expert in the whole Facebook game? Or does it make more sense to outsource that to someone that's an agency, like one of these smaller agencies? Like is it really, because like I've been, and the reason I ask you almost my own selfish interest here is that, you know, I've play, I've been back and forth with this so many times already. Should I do it myself? Should I outsource it to an agency? And I have my own internal marketing department. I have three or four people in that department right now. And I guess, you know, we always want to believe in Santa Claus, there's someone else that has some magic bullet that is going to be even better, right? It's human nature. But what do you think in general? Do you think it's better off for the entrepreneur to try to, you know what, it's such a crucial aspect of your business that you really ought to master this, and really focus in it yourself or just outsource it? - So I'm a little bit, I wouldn't say biased, actually probably I'm going to give people the answer they want to hear or the answer they probably don't think I'm going to say. But I myself have tons of agencies. We have seven offices around the world at this point. I don't know how many hundreds and hundreds of employees work for me, but it's a lot where I've only even seen two of my offices. And when you think about it, I would tell people when they're starting off, because we get a lot of inbound leads. We get right now around 60 to 70,000 inbound leads that we follow up with. We have over 200,000 that we don't even follow up with. So we get a lot of leads on a monthly basis. I always tell people when you're starting off, just trying to figure things out, hire cheap, hire contractors, try to do as much in-house. It's not worth hiring an agency. If you're trying to scale though, that's when I think it's worth it. If you already have something that's working, you already have an internal team, they're doing well but you want to try to figure out how to double, triple, I think it's worth hiring an agency. But I never recommend people to go with agencies when they're trying to figure things out. because the agency has too much overhead, too high expenses. You just don't get a great ROI. But when you already are at scale, in many cases they have better relationships with the platforms. They're seeing what other people are doing. They can bring you fuel to the fire and help you grow faster and increase your margins and profitability. But when you're starting off, they're just going to eat away at your cost and it's not worth it. - In that agency model, there are are many different compensation structures I've seen. You know, they want to retainer someone, a percentage of the ad spend, some I've seen want a percentage of the profits, right? What do you think is the one that makes sense for the most people? Or does it really, is it depends on the situation? - I look at it as profitability. If they can end up breaking down to you how much it's going to cost and what results they're going to provide and how much money you can make, and if the numbers pencil out, do it. And sometimes you have to get creative whether that's a percentage of ad spend or a retainer or a performance base. There is no right or wrong answer on the model. It's more so the right or wrong answers based on the profitability and how it can scale. When it's related to ads, usually people end up just doing a percentage of spend but you should expect that percentage of spend to go down as a campaign spends more and more money. - Right. - because if someone's spending a hundred grand a month and someone's spending a million, cost-wise you don't have to put in 10 times more people to manage a million a month than you do for a hundred grand a month. - No doubt. - Yeah, and the same goes if you're spending 80 mil, like we have some clients that we work with, and some of these guys are spending 80, a hundred million dollars a year literally just on like Google ads. So it's like, it has to be efficient. But the way I look at it is purely based on ROI. If you can provide a better ROI than the company can get themselves and they're happy with it, it's a win-win. If you can't, then you shouldn't be taking their money. - Let's start at the beginning and create like almost a hypothetical company, right? On the online space, and you're selling X, Y, Z. Let's say information product in something, right? So it's not a deliverable. What would be the first thing that you would do if it was your company? You're starting a new company, you're selling some sort of information product. Not a biz op, not a business opportunity, but an actual, some sort of training course or some, you know how to, okay? How would you go, what would be the first thing that you would do in terms from the marketing perspective? - So I would go to YouTube. I would search for Russel Brunson webinar formula. I would also then go check out Russ Ruffino and Russ Ruffino has a webinar and I would go check- - Russ who? - Russ Ruffino. - R-U, Ruffino? - Yeah, F-F-I-N-O, I believe. - Okay. - And then I would then check out Sam Evans who also has a webinar. Some of them are in biz op, and I'm not saying you should do biz op, but their formula on how they create their webinar and take you from the journey all the way to educating you, getting you excited and then selling to you, I think is, works for pretty much any product, whether it's e-commerce, B2B, B2C, info, doesn't matter, right? And I know this, we're specifically talking about info, but you can talk about info for training, you can talk about info for coaching, whatever it may be, right? - The only reason I didn't say biz op is, I get a bit like negative on that space because there's so many charlatans in that space that it disturbs me. So I just want, I didn't want to like, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it, there's some very good biz ops out there, but not that many, you know? But- - No, I'm not a fan of most. - You understand what I mean, yeah? - Yeah, the like, they're like no, you're not really going to teach me how to make a hundred million dollars. If that was the case, you'd just go do it yourself and not teach anyone, like let's just be honest. - Exactly. Exactly. - Once you have the webinar formula down, then what I would do is you create your own webinar, you have your own offering and there's a lot of softwares that can help you do it, like Webinar Jam. So you get that up and going and literally you just do a PowerPoint and you record over it using QuickTime or any free software out there. And then from there what I would do, is I would go to Facebook's ad library. That's a library that Facebook has that shows you everyone's ads. Literally everyone's ads and you can see which ones are working well, which ones aren't. And then from there just go to your competitors, look at their ads, create something that's similar and start throwing it up. That's how I'd start from day one, because you're starting off of something that works for someone else in your space. - Okay. So basically develop a model, right? So in those, you're saying, so you believe that the best way to sell information is still through a webinar? - Sadly, yes. And the reason I say sadly is because it takes more time to create a webinar than it does to throw up a landing page. But sadly it is. - And yeah, I mean I guess some of those, you know, it's interesting because I went through this process many years ago when I was, first decided to get back into this industry and I'd been out of it for a few years and I said, okay, let's see what everyone's doing. And I heard some of these webinars and one of them was Sam Ovens. I was like, oh my god. I was like, to me I found it offensive because of all the nonsense in there and I, you know, I knew that the offer itself was wasn't legitimate and he ended up going out of business. You know, he disappeared. But I understand what you're saying in terms of the actual formula itself, of how they go out and explain something and condition the market and is that, so you're talking about in terms of sort of this overarching philosophy of like an hour and a half. because I was like wow, it's an hour and a half long. It's, it just seemed to me, and again, because I, it's hard because I'm not the average person watching, I'm looking at it from a discerning eye of someone looking to learn something about duplicating it. So you're saying that for the person that's actually out there potentially buying a product, that hour in that long form webinar is still the one that really converts the highest? - We see it work extremely well. And when you look at all these people's webinars you don't have to copy them, just look at the format and then you can adapt it to your industry, your product that you're selling. And you don't have to sell as hard. You can sell based on stats and real data, whatever it may be that you're going after. - Right. - It just works. See, selling an info product to cold traffic without a webinar, they don't get to know you as well. And unless you have salespeople, which is fine too and I think that's great, but most people suck at hiring salespeople and they suck at selling. Hopefully with you they learn those two things. But if you don't know those things and you don't have the money to hire people and you don't, you can't do sale yourself or you don't have the time and you don't want to learn it, webinar is the easiest approach because then you're building that rapport, that connection. And funny enough, if you take a lot of your sales strategies and your tactics and you include them in a webinar, probably convert even better. - It, there are a lot more, it's interesting when I, you know, a lot of this stuff is baked in there essentially and is really, you know to me, marketing that sort of, you know that online marketing, it's really a straight line sale. It's just that it's a one-sided conversation. You're anticipating objections and looping and sort of like you know, having these, the reason it's so long is because you're imagining, you know there's all these different calls to action along the way, so there's like almost people said, you know, if you ask for the order at the one hour mark and then you go another 45 minutes, well guess what? That's objection handling. You've asked for the order, they didn't buy. You keep talking and you try a different approach and you ask for the order again and again and again. So there might be four or five different closes in that long webinar. So they are very similar at the end of the day. I guess, you know, for me though, what do you think it is though that causes some people to just break out like online? When you see, so just occasionally you see a new breakout winner online, is there anything you could look at with some of these younger people in their twenties and thirties that have just, you know they come in and they do something. Is it typically, is it the quality of their product or just more their marketing tactics that make them break out? - It's usually the quality of their product or something unique about them that you can't replicate. And what I mean by that is, this is an extreme example. You can't really replicate Kylie Jenner with her, you know, makeup line. You can't really replicate Logan and Jake Paul, who you know, they had a great formula for doing well but they did it early enough. It was just the right time, right place. If I go copy Logan and Jake Paul and I created a replica, literally right now they wouldn't do as well, just because it was wrong timing. They got in early enough where it was like cool, sexy, where everyone wanted to end up doing it, you know? Sure, a good product, good service helps, but I think a lot of it is just luck and timing. - So timing is a critical factor here? - Yes. - Do you think that it pays for someone to look at it like that, like those, on some level it seems like a bit disingenuous when someone's like being extreme and wild for the sake of being extreme and wild just because they want to somehow capture views and you know, the zeitgeist of the moment. But is that true or not true? In other words, is it sour grapes more on people's parts? Oh, look at them, they're not for real, they're not authentic, it's all. Or does it matter? You know what I'm getting at here? - Yeah. - There's like a lot of resentment towards like, I know some of these young TikTok boys, right? And people like just hate them. They hate them. Like they just like, they just think it's not real, it's not authentic, it's garbage. They'll be flashes in the pan. I don't really buy that. Like I think that, you know, if you look, okay, it's easy for someone to get famous for a moment, but those that can maintain that fame, like the Kardashians, how could you say that they're not talented at this point? I mean, anyone that could capture the public attention for that long, that's brilliance in my mind as a marketer and a business person, it's not like just a nonsense, it's real. So, but a lot of people don't think that. And what do you, what is your stand on that? - Yeah, I look at it as if you can maintain and you can keep going, you're doing something right. The Kardashians not only have maintained it, but they continually monetize it in many, many different ways and literally almost every single one in their family, it's a formula that works for them. But there's a lot of opportunities that you're going to get out there to just you know, have your 10 seconds of fame and just capture that audience and you're going to get some hate. Usually when you do those things, it's not going to be, oh, you're going to get all the fame and business that goes with it. No one's going to hate on you. You have to end up deciding where if it's worth it for you or not, and usually if you can maintain it, and you feel it's ethical and you can keep generating revenue on it, go for it. You can't please everyone in business. But a lot of it, seriously, like, when you think about like the TikTok and all that, it doesn't matter what content you create on TikTok. If you just go on TikTok right now, you'll do well just because the platform's so new that they want everyone to be popular and login. because they know what feeds their ego. The more followers you have, the more it feeds your ego, the more likely you are to keep using TikTok. Then eventually when they have to make a lot of money as a business, things will change and then less people start jumping on. - Do you think there's a formula though, that you could, that could be taught? Like how to become famous or let's say you know, not just famous, but how do you become like an influencer so to speak? Is it formulaic at this point or more, is it more hit and miss? You know what I'm driving at here? Like, is there a way you could actually, you know, someone's 21, all right, I want to do this and like, you know, I live in middle of X, Y, Z nowheresville and I'm though still going to come famous. What's my first step? I open up an account obviously, but what do I do? Is there's some sort of formula for this that you know of? - I don't think there's a formula. Anyone who tells you their formula, I really do, because I've seen it enough. It genuinely is hit or miss. And then on top of that, they need a lot of luck and timing. What I mean by that is you can copy the formula but if Facebook's or Instagram's algorithm has changed where they're not going to give you the reach and likes, good luck doing what Logan and Jake Paul or some of those people who posted half naked pictures did to get all their followers. It's not going to work these days because everyone's already doing that stuff. So you got to be at the right time, right place, create the right content and what worked, you know, for Dan Bilzerian isn't going to work for you or I, right? It's old, been there, done that, not going to work anymore because you know, Dan Bilzerian wasn't the first person or maybe if he was the first, he wasn't the last. And there's probably another thousand people who are doing the exact same thing as him. - Well I was doing that before it was even on, there was an internet. (he laughs) There was no internet back then. Thank God, by the way. Thank the Lord. I'll tell you what, I'll also thank God there was no cameras on every phone because God knows what I've filmed, oh my God. Who even knows, right? It's a different world. What, I guess my question though is, here's the parallel. When I first started getting into the online education world, it was 2009 and back then there was a group of people you probably remember them, they called themselves The Syndicate. Do you remember that? It was like Frank Kern and Evans, all those guys, right? And who, Andy Jenkins, may he rest in peace. I loved Andy Jenkins, right? And a bunch of guys, very smart guys, all of them, right? And they made their livings or they built their business based on constant cross promotions. It was almost like they had this little launch collusion strategy. I don't mean collusion in a bad way, it's probably the wrong word, but they had this sort of symbiotic relationship, where they would each mail to each other's things and endorse and co-endorse to create social proof. And they built their, all their businesses around this sort of mutually understood pact. They wouldn't, you know, cannibalize each other's launches and so forth. And that probably lasted for a few years, right? And then it just sort of dissipated as other people just you know, poured into the market. And that's even before Facebook was even, even, there was no ads back then at the point, as crazy as that sounds, it was all email marketing and stuff like that, right? So, but that strategy of, you know, using someone else's followers to build your followers, then was that big thing that seemed like a few years ago in Instagram and Facebook, that was a big deal. Is that still the best way to- - Shout outs and stuff like that, people are doing that. - Is that still in the way or are they, or has Facebook and Instagram just cut that off where they don't really allow, they don't give you the reach anymore. So it's like almost, unless you're paying to have it, I might have a million and some odd followers, but unless I'm going to pay, they won't let me hit my followers. You know what I'm saying? How's that working these days? - Yeah, so they're a publicly traded company, so they got to hit their quarterly earnings and they know that if you're going to do all those shout out for shouts and they make it easy for you to grow your profile, what's going to happen to the ad revenue? Going to go down, you don't need to pay them. So what did they do? They tightened it up and said yeah, you know, shout outs for shout outs, leveraging other influencers, it worked. We'll still make it work but it may work only one 10th of what it worked before. And if you want that extra 90%, give us money, cough it up. - Right. What's the best way if you want to build your followers, what do you think, let's talk about Instagram first. What's the best way to build your followers? Is it through that, those giveaways they're doing now? Those swaps that you see where, you know, just if you follow these 99 people and win a prize, do you, what do you think of that whole business? - So I think it's a terrible thing to do and here's why. The way these algorithms work is based on engagement more than anything else. So what percent of your audience, your followers engage with you? So I'm not talking about, see, when you do that giveaway, you'll get a ton of follows and those people will even engage on your first few photos. But after a week or two or a month, what's going to happen? Those people are barely going to engage in your content. So then Instagram will look at it as being like, huh, got a hundred thousand followers now, you went from 1000 to a hundred thousand, but on average you're only getting 200 or 300 likes per photo. They're going to be like, something's wrong here. No one cares for your content. That's a signal that it sends them. So then what they do is they say there's nothing wrong with the followers, there's something wrong with your content. So now when you create some amazing piece of content, whether it's a video, an image or story, they're like, we're barely going to show it to people, because no one cares to engage with you. So it actually hurts you in the long run. The best way to grow is to get the right type of followers. You don't need the most amount of followers, you need the most engaged followers. because then that causes your content to spread virally within their social network, which then creates a snowball effect and gets you to have more and more followers. So the best way on Instagram to do this is, you go live, and not just live, but think of this podcast. You and I are recording right now, okay? We're live, we can see each other on camera. Why not go live on Instagram, have the same thing where we're talking to each other? because what happens is my followers will get to know you, your followers will get to know me, Instagram and all these social networks push that really hard because they're trying to compete with live TV and take their market share. And you'll notice that your follower counts go up, and it's with the right people, they get to know you. You've warmed them up, you've built that rapport. They're going to engage in the future and they're going to convert when you sell them stuff.