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[Music] and how do you think that vendors who perhaps create this consultative approach rather than perhaps we've just alluded today where you've got the salesperson getting them to sign that dotted line and do you think this is something that should be started from the outset and for example in our organization we run risk assessments and we do it free of charge because we feel that this is not something you should be paying for you and we give you a with things being aggressively balanced view on your situation do you think that helps to attract more of a consultative approach rather than perhaps just a I'm a sales person you're a customer some dotted line I think it comes down to authenticity mmm you know when people can people can detect that straightaway you know if you're authentic but if you go into a meeting if you're open about you are here to help them but if you can't help them you'll shake hands and walk away because your solution your service you're offering will not answer their use case and that comes down to a consultative approach that comes down to knowing the market that comes down to know and how your tool or service works inside out and it comes down to a bit of experience as well hmm you know it's um I'm I'm slightly annoyed at LinkedIn with the amount of life coaches who contact me who are not out to their twenties yet you know and I'm like how can you be a life coach when you're not out to your twenties absolutely you know you haven't seen anything of life you know and I'm nearly 50 I know that's difficult to believe a nearly 50 both you know when I think sometimes people don't get it audience - well mmm I think you're gonna go into it and do that type of stuff or cell SEO services or send me five emails on the bounce when I have an answered you first one asking me did I get the other emails I did I just haven't responded to you because it's not for me at this moment in time treat humans like human beings I think absolutely and a good good point there we mentioned LinkedIn do you think LinkedIn is a good medium for vendors to perhaps market their ways or do you think that LinkedIn really is is his ill-used by vendors at the moment it's good and bad it's like everything I think too many go in for the kill straight away too many his old next product is or next thing it's great it's brilliant buy and that's kind of okay you know it's but I think that people who make a difference on LinkedIn are the people who want value so the people who have value without asking for anything the people who give up their time and their knowledge in their experience to help with the people you then build the trust you then build a brand and then I think people will then come to you if they have a question or have an issue so people may still say well that's a bit Mac of alien that's a bit you know but actually if you if you're out there giving more value than you're getting in eventually somebody's gonna come to you somebody's gonna think you're worth asking an opinion of all and may go and check out your website or your services you know what one the biggest guys one of the guys I follow on LinkedIn is Gary Vaynerchuk yes great guy from from vaynermedia you know it's more value than Danny you know and he says quite often that some of the people who are charging for the LinkedIn type of gurus you know you can get everything you want from him for zero cost mmm absolutely right gritty but he's well-liked I love them I love them and you know his language is great as well I think he pulls no punches mmm I would imagine if you met him in real life that is how he would be yeah nothing is nothing's manufactured there hmm I think people who get a little bit wound up w drops the f-bomb every now just you know that's that's no problem isn't with their sales in our InfoSec industry really is that sometimes they don't know anything about the technology so that's the sort of customer facing arm of the company and really it's a sales engineer that actually knows what they're talking about but that doesn't tend to always be at the front it's mainly yeah this is the sales this is your point of contact he's the guy who's gonna see you from cradle to grave if you like yeah that's a problem it is a problem of about sales guys before will me into meetings tell me that they're gonna introduce me leave me alone to talk technical stuff and then come back afterwards to get the peel type of thing you know I think that's the that's the bad side of sales I think the the the real good side of it and you know I don't want this to come across as a Salesman bashing side of things I've caused from a an elementary point of view and being the VP you know that's where we are at the moment you know where will it grow in our company growing our sales go on our education of the customers grow on our exposure so obviously people need sales to survive but I think think the real good sales guys and the really good ones I've worked at before and gender a trust with their customers hmm almost almost before you get to any kind of discussion about what the product is or what the services the 14 to you as a person absolutely right I think also as well that it's not entirely up to the way that you go to market with your product but if you look at maps of Perpetual versus subscription licensing I think that's the subscription licensing can be favored because it makes the vendor maintain that relationship every year not-not-not what rather than perhaps selling of a petrol license sure sign the line and then that's it until renewal that's that's that's a problem that I think many vendors have you know they're focused on perpetual licenses and they're not interested in keeping that relationship with the customer long time yeah would you agree oh absolutely you know most most customers on the perpetual side of things get a call every April or whenever they yeah whenever the licenses okay how are you doing that we're gonna renew next year you know and I'm not sure whether you know if that was your own personal relationship you probably get out to that relationship slitty quickly right you know you don't you don't want to be you don't want to be spoken to once a year especially if you've had issues throughout the year you've raised those and nobody's dealt with those issues or you've had problems you know so from a subscription point of view and I think it does lend people to have that conversation however haven't been in manage services for a very long time you know that's second nature to me and and to what we do you should have those conversations all the time and the customers you'll feel free to be able to pick up the phone and say hey what about this and you should offer as I mentioned earlier on about the value you should be off a be able to offer that value you're not getting paid for you you're not getting anything extra hmm the customers derive and value from it absolutely that's really important yeah it makes sense know one of the questions I'd like to ask you is is around AI and AI technology within our enforcer cold do you think that the technology will ever be so good it will replace the need for a/c so in an organization I think we've got a long way to go until that happens you know Amazon still have issues detect and real reviews from reviews there was something recently on Amazon that there was a bunch of reviews there that they they couldn't detect will happen at some point in the future I think anything's possible right we'll Liverpool win the league in the future we're all hoping right so so so anything's possible are we anywhere near that I don't think so and we've got a long way to go I think we're really at the basics of AI Machine lens doing some really good stuff you know we've got people beaten chess champions and stuff like that because it's a logic based approach and you can do a lot of computations but I think when you come to the finer intricacies of the human mind there's we're only at the very beginning of that [Music] you you