Unlock the power of the challenger sales model for Manufacturing

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welcome back everyone this is Craig Rosenberg the funnelholic I'll let Matt and Brent laugh about that later um that's my blogger handle and I am a student of sales and marketing which means I like to write about it I like to read about and I especially like to have conversations like the one we're about to have so I can learn more about it I uh as everyone knows now that I'm in working with lattice engines here to really study what it takes to be a modern sales leader today and what the best practices are what folks are seeing and I have some of the top thought leaders in the space coming on and talking about particular topics when you're talking about modern sales and modern sales leadership today you can't avoid not talking about the Challenger sales model and so it's with great pleasure to me at least and eventually to you guys as you see this that we were able to get Matt Dixon and Brent Adamson to come on and talk about the Challenger sales model and what that means to the modern sales leader so today is uh this is going to be a great session if um I was just telling you know Matt and Brent how I uh it's like there's this growth chart of mentions on the Challenger sales model it's like now if I'm around a sales leader I'm going to hear about it and I was just telling these guys that now marketing folks are starting to talk about it because conceptually um well actually there's tactics that they recommend for sales folks that are just perfect fits for the marketing folks so this is just a great topic and I'm very excited to talk about it so before I go so I don't uh mess everything up I'd love for you guys to introduce yourself so Matt why don't you go first and then Brent if you could follow with a minute or two about yourselves sure thank Craig thank you very much for inviting us to participate um it's a great project and we're thrilled to be here um so everyone my name is Matt Dixon um co-author of the Challenger sale along with my colleague Brent Adamson um who video wise I don't know if he thinks my right or my left but one of the other uh but I serve as executive director uh here at CED which was formerly the corporate executive board which is a global business research and advisory company based uh in Washington DC I run the sales practice here where Brett and I work together and in the sales practice in CB we serve about 700 B2B sales leaders and their teams providing them with data and insights around how to get after pressing problems um the ones that Vex B2B sales leaders um year over year uh and we present that content out to our our Global membership so I've been at our company for about 14 years now and and the Challenger sale was one of our most recent kind of public pieces of research but we've been in this business for a very long time right great thanks Matt uh hi Craig and thanks for the opportunity again my name is Brent Adamson I am a managing director here in the sales and marketing practice at ceb and specifically I sit on what we call our executive advisory team which largely means I spent a lot of time in Planes I fly around the world uh taking the the products that Matt's team produces in the research side and and Building stories around them and conveying them back to companies and helping them think in a very practical way how to apply those lessons in in their companies and the one thing I'd say just to kind of add on the mass point that we can dig in is that uh what what really excites us about all the work that we do here at ceb is that it's all data driven it's all research driven so so people ask us are you a consulting company what are you what we really are more than anything else is a research organization we go out we study the world of sales and marketing particularly B2B sales marketing which at least for Matt and I said in as much depth as we possibly can with as much qualitative and quantitative research uh and then what we could do is we could take all that research and just give it to the world say here's a bunch of research what we found in the past is if you if you present the world with a bunch of research you don't want to listen to you so what you got to do is got to build a story around that research you got to build a story that's compelling and interesting and captures that research in a way that will drive people to action very much like the way we've got to sell effectively you gotta whatever you're selling you got to capture that in the story too and so that's where the Challenger sale really came from it came from a whole lot of research a massive amount of data-driven research around which we built what turned out to be a pretty compelling story so happy to talk about it terrific all right well I uh you know I spent a lot of time trying to find a way that I could look really smart in asking you this question and I just couldn't get around it and we have to I mean it's the core of why we're here which is you know what is the Challenger sales model and so I wrote all these different ways to ask it and I guess the best way is to just say what is the challenge of sales well I'll throw that to you guys and let you guys run go ahead Matt sure I'll take a take a crack at that and then Brent uh feel free to jump in um so at the highest level the Challenger sales model is a a selling approach that's about leading with Insight um and what we mean by that is it's about coming to the customer's office showing up uh to the customer conversation with new ideas uh usually ideas the customer hasn't thought about before that reframe the way the customer thinks about managing their own business so new ideas for making money for saving money for avoiding risk engaging employees grabbing market share whatever the objective is but again in a sort of a provocative way in a way that reshapes the way the customer had previously thought they were to get after these objectives and we distinguish that from other selling approaches that we've seen kind of come and go in the past of course product selling which is about showing up effectively showing up and throwing up pardon the expression but leading with the features and benefits of a product in solution selling which we would characterize as a selling approach primarily uh driven by uh leading with questions so what are the business objectives that you Mr and this customer are trying to get after and let me see if there's a way that I can attach our company our Solutions value proposition to those business objectives right um it just kind of is a bit of background Craig's and some of your listeners will know this some won't but as I mentioned before it's about everything we do is is data driven and so that this story is no different so where the Challenger model really comes from is not sort of observations of the world per se or and my 30 years of selling what we've seen wins but rather we are not we study the world with a huge amount of data so in this case uh We've now gathered data on over 20 000 sales professionals B2B sales professionals all over the world across every major geography go to market model uh Industries in order what you sell where you sell how you sell it direct field phone uh indirect you name it uh but in in what we did is we tested those sales reps across a wide range of attributes skills behaviors attitudes knowledge trying to understand what truly sets the very best sales reps apart from everyone else now what's interesting is we got you got 55 attributes roughly and you've got 20 000 sales reps it gives you this huge database the first thing we tell people about that database is whatever you do don't print it but the second thing we tell you is uh that what's interesting is you got to make some sense out of it so you step back and you look at this database and what we did is we we tried it in our effort to make some sense out of it we ran what's called a factor analysis on that data and all a factor analysis does is it takes a large amount of data and boils it down to the smallest number of categories where everything in that category moves together in a statistically significant way and all that means is a fancy way of saying what's interesting is we look at the data you can derive from the data it's not assertion that's just an observation of what actually happens in the data you find that virtually every sales professional has this tendency to fall into one of five distinct profiles that we found in the research and and we're by no means saying that these profiles are mutually exclusive because they're not I mean reality is always more complex and messy than data is and in fact what you find when you look at the data is that virtually every sales rep has at least a baseline level of performance across all of the attributes which which could have allowed us to Simply say be good at everything but that's not very helpful any buddy right so but what you find nonetheless is that almost every single sales rep has this really interesting tendency to gravitate very dramatically to a very specific subset of those attributes in defining sort of their primary posture when facing off with a customer and there's sort of five different ways that that gravitational pull can happen sort of it's kind of like going to college right we all take the Core Curriculum and then we major in something sort of like there's five majors of of sales professionals there's a hard worker always willing to go the extra mile uh doesn't give up easily they do more calls an hour more visits per week they're always looking for feedback there's the Challenger that that's sort of a debater on the team they've got this deep knowledge of the customer's business but they use it to challenge their customers thinking the relationship Builder very much focused on building personal professional relationships Advocates across the customer organization their posture largely is whatever you need customer I am here for you you say the word I will get it done the Lone Wolf the Primadonna of your sales force always follows their own instincts instead of the rules that drive you nuts because you never know where they are and never know what they're doing and you'd fire them if you could but you can't because they're crushing their number and then the the problem solvers we say in the book The reactive problem solve very detail-oriented very focused on sort of post sales implementation make sure that all those promises that were made as part of the sale get kept the ones I get kept once the sale is done so the first thing that blew us away in all this research is the fact that there are these five profiles and they've remain consistent dramatically so statistically speaking across all the data and also when you go out and you compare it to the real world you find that most of us will find ourselves in one of those five profiles more than the other four but the thing that truly blew us away is when you take those five profiles you compare them to Performance and that's where the really the story comes from right because what you find is as many of your listeners will know is that by Far and Away the Challenger rep is more likely to be a star performer to outperform their colleagues than any other four that the the the rep that's more likely than any of the other four to to exceed to meet or exceed goal in a consistent basis year over year to drive growth for their company and then so that's the one sort of kicker of this lesson that the flip side is equally interesting is the the profile least likely to be a star performer which turns out to be the relationship Builder which is a really interesting thing in itself which we can talk about if you like but but at its core that is the Challenger Story the fact that you find these reps called Challengers who are so much more likely to be star performers than anyone else particularly relative to the strategy most of us been pursuing for years which is building better relationships through familiarity through needs uh through uh through the the the meeting of our customers needs whatever you need I'm here for you uh and so it's a very different model going forward versus sort of meeting customers needs versus challenging their needs is this a um and it might be both but is this something that a sales leader can change and it's is this trained is this hired you know so so you take on the Challenger model and you say so the a sales leader Embraces it says you know what I love it but now what like is this about hiring people who are Challengers or is this a mentality change across the organization how do you get to where you know where where you guys recommend yeah I think um uh it's a great question it's a it's probably the question I would say but I don't know if you agree that we get asked probably more than any other is uh is this nature nurture how do I uh execute this how do I make this happen can this even happen given where we are right now given the makeup of our sales force and in the way we engage the customer um and what we say is we we know a few things one across all of the sales people in our database um as Brent said every one of them uh to a degree has a trace element of at least the Challenger Gene and so we try to focus our research not on things that are nature but rather things that are nurture so things that can be taught things that can be coached to uh skills that can be cultivated and developed with practice and coaching and the right kind of training we know this does well through experience so a few years after we did the Challenger research um we launched our sales Effectiveness solutions group which does Challenger training and so they've been out there for the past couple of years now with companies rolling out the Challenger model in their own experience in the field would suggest that companies um when committed to it again with the right training with the right coaching then yes to your point with uh adaptation to their current hiring approach and what they're looking for from uh external job candidates um with these right with these moves you can move the needle and you can move the dial and you're not going to flip-flop the sales organization where you've got 80 heart relationship pillars right now and now all of a sudden a year later you have 80 Challengers but you do see a a secular movement in terms of the proficiency and Challenger skills amongst your sales people that can be tied cleanly to improved sales results now one of the really important things though I think to point out um is that and we we go to Great Lengths to talk about this in the book and I think it was one of the sort of early misconceptions around Challenger is that Challenger is actually just a sales rep story it's about a story of a different set of skills required um in this new selling environment the new select four set of skills that the best sales people possess and that is certainly true but the other half of the story is a marketing story it's actually the story of messaging a story about the customer conversation and one of the things that Brent and I go to to Great length to tell people when we talked about Challenger is it's an organizational transformation it's not merely a flavor of the week training exercise um a the training and the coaching are different in a challenger world where you're trying to change tacit skills getting people comfortable attention pushing the customer outside of their comfort zone but it's a mistake to actually go out and tell your salespeople to go forth and teach the customer new things deliver Insight make them smarter go challenge people uh because what you get back in return can be quite scary you get sales reps who teach customers to Value many different things and oppose your organization to many different directions you get sales people to go out and teach customers about things you can't actually help them with and then thereby teach them willing into the arms of your uh willing and grateful competitors or maybe they teach them about problems that nobody can solve in by definition then give them something that will keep them up at night um perhaps unwittingly but the uh the key here is for the organization to figure out what is it that makes us unique what are the things that make us distinct in the market and you know we we always tell people this it's probably not because you're Innovative it's not because you're customer Centric it's not because you're employee Centric um it's not because you're entrepreneurial or green or any number of business platitudes it is the thing that really defines and answers the question why should your customers buy from you instead of from the competition what's the thing your customer your competition can't touch with the barge pool once you define that how do you create a conversation that leads to those things by Leading with Insight that's about the customer's world that reframes the way they think about managing their business that leads them to Value the things that make you really unique the job of getting all that right is not the job of the sales person typically it's the job of marketing in most organizations and and really of leadership to figure out what are those teachable messages what are those stories how do we package them align them to customer segments Etc and then teach our sales people to deliver them so if you're only focused on this from a skills perspective you're really only kind of scratching half the itch or getting half of the solution um out there is the but but um have we see like yeah I the thing when I read read your stuff that's really interesting to me is you say there's five types of sales reps and so um are and I know you kind of just answered it but I still I just wanted to so I get the researcher or not the research I mean the relationship Builder do I just avoid the relationship Builder or do I try to am I always going to have relationship builders in my organization well there's there's a couple ways to think about that Craig so let me let me back up and and take a running start at that question with uh with a little bit of your previous question which is you know can Challengers are they born or can they be made the uh yeah it's funny because I as I mentioned I spent a lot of my time traveling around the world presenting This research and other research to to companies and I've presented this to tens of thousands of sales reps and and in particular when you presented to sales reps the code of carrying the front line of your Salesforce the thing that we have to be really uh careful to do or to say is something we mean quite literally and and really uh it's really important to us to sort of iterate this or reiterate this which is as interesting as the profiles are and they are they really are interesting and they're really practical in terms of sort of managing your sales force at the end of the day despite the name of the book and everything else the story isn't about the profiles it's not really about the profiles at all what the story is truly about is the behaviors that make up the profile it's not the question so in other words we can't stand Nork at any other leader stand in front of their Salesforce say be a challenger go get them right it's like because the salesforter's gonna look you say what do you want me to actually do I mean they might agree with you say I'm gonna go be a challenger what does it mean what do I do what are the behaviors and so the the question that really is more interesting is not so much who is a challenger but rather what do Challengers do because if we can and we have and so once you sort of locate or identify those behaviors that truly make someone a challenge or make them unique then the question is for all of us how can the rest of us begin to adopt some of those same behaviors in our own sales approach irrespective of whatever profile we might have thought ourselves to be in and at that point when you when you get into this question behaviors you get into training and coaching and tools and and certainly hiring as well but it's something that people can replicate and emulate and and therefore it becomes really powerful and that then now takes us back to this question of the relationship building the fact that relationship Builders are so less likely to be star performers it's not because well I'm a relationship Builder but rather it is the the behaviors that those relationship Builders are largely focused on that leads them to land in this profile so so we're not saying emphatically not saying that relationships are unimportant or even bad in sales in fact we're saying he's just the opposite I think we'd all agree that relationships are hugely important in sales and if your customers you know if they are right just like you if they don't even know who you are fix all that first truly but if the behavior that largely defines your strategy for building relationships is largely based on building familiarity and identifying and meeting your customers no needs whatever you need I am here for you you say the word I will get it done oh don't need anything today all right I'll call back in a quarter we'll talk again and I'll see if you need anything then it turns out that that growing your business based purely out of familiarity is a horrible strategy for growing your business because what do you do in a world where the two things your customers need more than anything else or more time to decide at a bigger discount uh and and if you're in the business of providing your customers what you need what they need is to spend less money at least that's what they believe they need uh it can be a really tough recipe for growing your business and so what Challengers are doing is actually delivering to customers what we know from our research customers truly want which is not just a friendly relationship what they want is to be more competitive what they want is to understand how they can save money or make money in ways they themselves have yet despite all their research figured out on their own so if you can challenge me with new insights and do that by the way professionally and diplomatically don't be a jerk about it right but if you but if you can be in a friendly professional empathetic way show me new ways to think about my business that I myself have not thought of on my own that's a conversation I want to have and so and again we know that not just from experience but from from data that customers that's what they're looking for from A supplier is Insight new ideas to help them be more competitive so so the idea is what you find in the research and an experience is that over time what's really interesting is that Challenger reps wind up building better relationships with customers than relationship Builders because they're basing that relationship on something more than simply familiarity they're basing that relationship on challenging that customer's thinking which is exactly what customers tell us they're looking for in a supplier yeah that's right and just one one more thought there um Craig is that you know I'm asked this a lot I really think and Brent and I have talked about this at Great length with many of our our clients is that the currency of customer loyalty and the currency frankly to Brian's point of what is a good sales person to customer relationship has actually changed in a world where customers have ample amounts of information and ample amounts of advice uh with which to make decisions so the world the talking brochure the world of you know what keeps you up at night in your 20 Questions uh that world has passed now that customers uh can using the information we as suppliers put on the web using third-party Consultants using their own procurement departments can uh disintermediate the salesperson from the actual purchase decision so we know from our own data that by the time the average customer reaches out to a salesperson their purchase decision is actually 60 over so what do you do in that world what is the currency of the relationship in that world what's the currency of loyalty and it turns out it's actually stuff that the customer couldn't have found on their own it's Unique insights uh and that's what the customer is really looking for and so we really think this is something that you probably wouldn't have found and you I I or you almost certainly wouldn't have found back in days of information asymmetry where that's really what we relied on as a salesperson but in a world of information parity um that's why Challengers win I was about to say I was initially when I first asked the question as you guys started to answer I regretted it I'm like God these guys are so sick of these dumb guys who just can't get over the fact and then that I thank you so much for uh taking that and running with it uh before we run out of time I wonder if there's um you can help a sales leader think of an example of someone who's embraced this change and the things that they did to make their organization um you know sort of adhere to the Challenger sales model and really see success with it I I'd be really curious about that myself but I I you want me to tell the uh the RFP story I love that story and then you can um maybe you're thinking about more from a company perspective and I think there's different ways Craig to answer the question I think one is you know what is what does this look like for a rep who's who's embraced these kinds of behaviors and one of the things I think we we also go to Great Lengths to uh emphasize we get you know criticized by all kinds of Talking Heads out there who will say yeah there's nothing new here and you know by definition that's true because if it hasn't already been being practiced by top performing sales people we wouldn't have found it in the data so we're simply documenting what top sales people are doing right now now um it's untrue to claim that that's actually the same thing that's being taught in the sales classroom right now because it's I think most people would agree it's not um but it is uh fair to say that's what top sales people are doing um uh and all we did was document that that is 100 True when we talk to these top sales people and we try to understand you know what makes them tick and how they go about challenging what's that look like in nature not the data and what the research says but what's it look like in practice we find all kinds of fascinating things um and really get a sense of what it means to teach the customer to tailor the message to take control of the sales process and the sales conversation so I'll tell you the story at a sort of sales rep level and then Brent you know I don't know if you want to provide more of an organizational leadership perspective because it is a big change and I think that's a big part of the story um quick story um uh and we love this one it was actually in an article we wrote in Harvard Business review this summer um which we think is a it really epitomizes what it means to challenge a customer's thinking um in a world and as I said before in a world where the customer can push us farther and farther out in the purchase decision and We Know by the time the average customer reaches out to a supplier their purchase decision is nearly 60 complete in some companies that plays out um uh to you know uh in time after time and we're seeing a lot of our business go down uh the Trap of the sort of RFP trap uh one company Specialty Chemicals company that we were working with we're actually interviewing one of their Challenger reps who we'd identified in our survey went out we're talking to them you know what does it mean to take control of the sale and we're kicking around different ideas and this person this guy was sharing different stories with us and the one that really hit home with us because we said is you know what you guys have to understand is our business has gone down the road of RFP um to the extent that you know 80 90 of our business is being driven through RFP right now and every single time I show up it's us in our two biggest competitors we're in this one of three situation um and we we show up and the customer knows everything about our solutions they know everything about what we make and what we do they know what makes us different and all all they want is the further supplier who's going to bend on price or terms and conditions the most at that point that's really what they're looking for um and what this what the salesperson said is you know I got a call from a customer I'd been chasing for a number of years and never really done any business uh together never was the right time to switch suppliers all of a sudden I get this phone call on a Monday and they they say you know shocked me and said um you know we've actually made the decision as a company to reevaluate our supplier for this certain specialty chemical that's critical to their manufacturing process we it's you guys and your two biggest competitors want you to come in on Friday you've got an hour with our buying committee everybody's going to be there everyone from um the the CEO to the head of procurement all the critical general managers all the people who are the technical experts who make who use this product day in and day out in the manufacturing process everyone who needs a way in the decision is going to be in that room here is the RFP come on in give us the best shot I think it's going to be great I think you guys be a great match for this business and what the rep actually knew at this point it usually this challenge your mindset where most reps would say hey this is great it's like deal t-ball it's like deal deals ringing from the sky I'm gonna forecast this thing on Friday uh and we know what happened we know what's going to happen right they're going to forecast it this Friday and next Friday and the Friday after that is going to go on forever what this rep do uh with this Challenger mindset was um I'm being called in this late in the sales process probably because this customer's already made a decision and they're not going to buy from us but we're being called in as a benchmarking exercise to provide leverage against the people they really want to buy from and so in order to win this deal I've got to completely reframe the way they're thinking about answering or addressing this business objective they're trying to get after so what the rep did was really powerful um he said he walks into the RFP session walks in Friday morning 9 A.M got his response RFP and actually tells the committee I've got my response to RFP but I'm going to let you guys read that on your own time I've only got an hour with you and would have rather spend my hour with you doing is not going through this RFP because frankly it's exactly what you asked for it's no different from what the other two guys are going to walk in and present um it's everything you ask for you can read it on your own time not a lot of difference there it's kind of commoditized what I'd rather spend my hour talking to you about is the three things that should have been in your RFP but weren't and why they're so critical to your business why they're so critical to getting after the objective that you're trying to get after and addressing the business opportunity and challenge you're trying to resolve and so what this rep proceeds to do is over the next hour completely reframe the objective this company was even trying to get after in the first place such that at the end of this cell day or this pitch day the CEO sent all three sales people packing said we're going to blow up this RFP process start from the beginning ended up redrawing it redrew the RFP around the criteria that that one Challenger sales rep had taught them to Value taught them more important in a way that that company ended up winning the business when you know initially they were called in merely for providing leverage against the chosen supplier it was a benchmarking exercise reframed the way that they were thinking about this business challenge that's what it means to challenge that's what it means to take control that's what it means to be to deliver provocative Insight uh in a way that gets you out of this death spiral of the customer contacting you later and later in the sales process because they've got all the information they need to make their decision so that's an individual sales rep story Brent any perspective from the organizational um uh a little with um with a view towards time I would simply say this the um we love that story first of all it's a great story when you tell that story to sales leaders it's really fun because their eyes get all things like yeah score one for sales I mean it's like that classic moment we all live for but the I think we'd all agree with is uh while that is a dramatic story and a fantastic story because there's a great win at the end of the story it is not necessarily a story that you want to base your entire sales strategy on right which is because you can imagine that story could have easily gone the other way the customer could have looked at that sales rep but he said you know here's the response to our opinion table for the next hour since you have a limited amount of time I'd rather talk about something else and you can imagine client saying no we're gonna talk about this and if you're not gonna talk about get out right so so it is a dramatic story and it works and and what you do for that next hour is crucially important if you can methodically dismantle that customer's thinking and show them a very systematic way that essentially they're wrong that they got it wrong that they missed something and again do that diplomatically do it professionally do it empathetically but do it but that said The more interesting thing from a systemic perspective is how do I avoid getting into that situation in the first place so they don't have to go in and completely blow up the customer thinking and this is no different what Bob Miller was writing about 20 30 years ago in strategic selling which is how do I get ahead of the RFP how do I how do I crack open that early part of the of the purchase and the answer there is imagine a world in which you are not just challenging at that late stage but challenging very early on in the customer's learning process you are there with content uh that challenges our thing he shows them it's not these things you should be concerned about but those things you should be concerned about and and the reason why this is interesting and particularly interesting in the context of a sales methodology is that again as Matt mentioned we know from our data that most cases in most cases sales no longer have access to the customer at those very early stages customers are shutting us out but you still have to be there with that kind of insight which leaves arguably only one channel through what to do it which is arguably your your marketing channel and and unless you are building a commercial organization that challenges and not just the sales team the challenges you could wind up still helping you know having to base your entire strategy on the very story that mentioned which we think is a pretty dangerous place to be so much of our work and this is this actually is not in the book we hint at it in the book but our thinking has I would say evolved but it is uh We've expanded on it pretty significantly to look very deeply on the marketing side and the content marketing side and the all the stuff that we do in the name of thought leadership people tell us all the time on the marketing side we do this Insight thing we've got it nailed we're thought leaders in our industry and then we look at what they call Insight and indeed it is thought leadership the difference is we would say fought leadership and insight are two radically different things that insight has at its heart this very interesting moment where it's not just teaching an idea of what you could be doing but I'm teaching you an idea that you're already doing and yes I just made up a word we called on teaching but the uh the challenge your customers thinking on on what they're doing and you can do that not just through your sales force but through your white papers your blogs your your posts your your tweets and your infographics and so what we're particularly interested in today is not so much building the challenge or Salesforce which is still crucial today as it was three years ago when we first saw the data but we're so much more interested in building a challenger commercial organization that challenges customers through every access point that we have to them in a consistent way so we're not just pouring out content into the world that's about anything but we're relieving breadcrumbs that's in the marketplace of ideas that lead customers along this path of disruptive ideas that ultimately leads them to a place where they're willing and interested in actually asking for a conversation with our sales team around that very disruptive insight and the so that's that's a lot of where our thinking is now because we strongly believe that your star performers can probably do exactly what Matt's talking about and the rest of your sales force with respect can't because it's hard it's really really hard and it's risky and the only way that you win in this world where your customer can learn on their own is if the entire organization is aligned around not just thought leadership not just content but insight and insight specifically designed to challenge customers thinking so that gives you a sense Craig of where our thinking is evolved since the book came out hopefully it's a little bit helpful and then more watch the space because there's a lot more on this to come in the future excellent well guys I appreciate you squeezing in the time with me and um we uh we did it I mean I in that short amount of time I learned a lot but I do wish I had four hours with you so you know on behalf of lattice engines and behalf of the modern sales leader um study and research and content although I suffice to say I'm not sure I want to say that around you guys considering all the work you've done um I appreciate you guys coming out and talking to us I think this is going to be great for our audience thank you fantastic thanks Craig thanks guys thank you