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hello you're on their downhill slope towards cocktail hour very exciting I'm excited anyway so my name is Ross and a founder and CEO of a company called Valley wires so I'll introduce in a in a second and we're going to go pretty deep into a couple of concepts here this isn't gonna be a overly we're gonna have talks in tactics but it's not gonna be overly tactical it's more gonna be fairly scientific almost looking at getting deep into some revenue model theory and how this there maps to how we can optimize the design of our customer success strategies just so I can tailor to an extent and make this as valuable as possible to all of you three questions who works for a b2b company anyone PDC or b2b to see no does anyone not have a recurring revenue model ie do you still maybe sell perpetual licensing or just services every one is recurring revenue excellent all the questions have been answered correctly so far and a third question is does your company or within maybe your actual team do you have any sort of pre sales function in what you might call them solution engineers sales engineers pre-sales consultants anyone not have it I'm sort of quasi okay perfect that's that's good that's good this will all become clear as to why I'm asking these questions I think going through this stop me challenged me ask me questions we can kind of I can tap dance my way through this so if you want to get it I would like this to be interactive so there are questions as we go feel free no questions from Bob though that's not allowed and certainly will have questions at the end as well quickly to introduce value-wise very briefly what we do is help b2b software companies mostly enterprise companies expand and retain their customers and revenue at scale so we do that by helping build and design their what we define as their customer success strategies which I'll get into in a second and then we help them actually operationalize the execution of those customer success strategies and scale it through autumn and this is where the technology piece comes in so we're very much kind of strategy Plus technology we're a team of experienced CS leaders and CS professionals there's we have 15 consulting people in the team right now growing very very fast and we've worked with Alexa GE Digital Splunk work working with those companies what is clear data bricks so a lot of sort of companies who are both on the cutting edge of their associated domains but also come from a long legacy I have a long history waters Clure or something like one hundred and something years old and so they've gone through a lot of transition or going through a lot of transition from a revenue model perspective as well as a customer life cycle perspective we're headquartered in beautiful Vancouver Canada that is where I'm based now my funny accent is from London which we'll get into in a second we have a base in Denver as well but largely we run decentralized so onto the our focus for obviously in these next two days which is customer success and value eyes when we think customer success and customer success strategy and drill into those concepts for example onboarding which is one of the focus today we think within a customer lifecycle context which isn't particularly a revelation I think most companies now are looking at their revenue strategy their business model their CS strategy within the context of customer lifecycle phases we talk acquisition adoption retention and expansion very much based on the TSI a layer model land adopt expand renew if you're familiar familiar with that this COG concept is is important to us in terms of recognizing that there is no retention and expansion without nailing adoption and we'll talk about well what does adoption mean in a second and of course they can no be there cannot be any adoption retention or retention and expansion without any customers who he must acquire but we don't only look this is one one-half of one side of the dimension of customer success strategy for us the other side is thinking about value and so we talk about a value cycle and that too if we all and I'm sure someone agree with me if you do but I think we would all agree that delivering measurable value is the nucleus of a successful customer success strategy because if we're not doing that we can't truly be achieving adoption but to enable us to scale ibly efficiently and repeatedly deliver measurable value we believe as value wise that there is a cycle we must go through with each customer around diagnosing quantifying prescribing and getting the customer to agree what that value will be and then we can move forward and deliver it and we believe that this value cycle fuels a successful customer lifecycle in a b2b software company and that we need to have the value cycle overlaid the customer lifecycle so we look at that and why does this relate to the theme of kick-starting onboarding during the sales process if again again anyone challenged me but if we agree that the retention and expansion of our customers and revenue is the ultimate outcome of our customer success strategy and it's ultimately the lifeblood of any company with a recurring revenue model subscription revenue model then we need to nail the equation of adoption and for us nailing adoption achieving adoption is enabling our customers to realize recurring measurable values so we need to deliver that measurement that value and and measure it for onboarding our definition of onboarding which to us is a component a very key component and arguably the most important component of the overall health as you now it might not just be one it might be two or three value moments that you might define makes up your onboarding stage but it's at least one there has to be first value delivered and measured in our mind from boarding to be a successful stage of your customer lifecycle and for us to be able to deem onboarding complete on a per customer basis to achieve that first value delivery and make it measurable we believe this value cycle must be performed and it must be performed across all our customer segments it must be performed on a per customer basis what I'm going to talk about today is why and how important it is for that part of the value cycle around diagnosis quantification prescription and agreement to happen during customer acquisition to enable onboarding to be successfully performed and to mitigate a number of risks that exist for our goal of retention and expansion if we don't nail that onboarding step and what we at value I especially when we work with enterprise companies sort of talk about and label this concept as is this is what pre-sales strategy should be now I don't care we don't care as value wise whether our clients and the companies we're talking with call it free sales strategy or not and I don't care whether they deem that to be the role of a pre-sales consultant a sales engineer or an account executive well we're very excited to be seeing is a trend in the industry and certainly in the clients we work with of this evolution of a customer success architect replacing this pre-sales traditional pre-sales function but again what what it's called what you call the strategy who is doing it is a secondary consideration for me and certainly for this session today it's someone needs to be doing these steps to enable us to really nail onboarding and I think if we can complete these steps and integrate these steps into our acquisition motion into our pre-sales strategy then we get to kick start onboarding because if we get to complete these we get to hit day one of the customer lifecycle with a plan to get them to that first value which we know it's going to be measurable it's going to be accepted by the customer and we get to complete onboarding very quickly and and and move on so today what we're gonna do I say I'm going to explain why how we've why we have this belief why we have this methodology based on that value cycle how some of my history my career kind of letter led us that really adopting this as a as a as a methodology in value wise we'll quickly look at what we see as the current state of pre sale strategy in a lot of b2b software companies we is amusing if nothing else and then we'll talk about how could be evolved reset the pre-sale strategy to own that value lifecycle and really execute on it to allow us to achieve this goal of kick-starting onboarding during the sales cycle any questions anything super unclear yet I'm sure they still we're good so far okay let's carry on so gain share wouldn't earth do I mean by gain share why am I talking about gain share anyone know where this is my accent is a clue so this is London this is Canary Wharf and this is where I spent far too many late nights not doing fun stuff like partying but actually in that Barclays building and in that building there which was Lehman Brothers at the time so this is kind of early to mid 2000s and I was working for a very very large software managed services IT services company and leading what we at the time we defined as pre cells as well as implementation for the software business unit and closed and architected kind of the pre-sales side of the of the strategy were nine figure contracts with both Barclays lowest ESB NHS and these were worth in for 150 300 million US dollars in terms of translating it from pounds and these contracts were gained share contracts and this was a very very instrumental time of my career and really and I was I was just in my mid-20s doing this it was an incredible opportunity I had and it really laid the foundation for what we've built in value eyes and the methodologies we have and it just so happened to become extremely relevant once this subscription economy exploded in the last five to seven years and this emergence of of SAS companies with the subscription revenue models so what I was doing with these nine figure contracts and what we were closing was putting in gain share models and quickly for anyone not familiar with this concept of a gain share contract it's ultimately the it is the van navona contract if you want to have and require a complete alignment between a vendor and a customer around delivering value in that again share contract requires the service provider in which case this was my company or the company I was working for to deliver value to the customer and that value is being represented in the form of dollar savings or pound savings of the case was and so for every every pound we saved them through the services and products we were providing them and delivering to them we shared that money and so if we were able to say save the customer a million pounds or a million dollars a year we would have a typically a 50-50 split and we would take 500k so if we didn't successfully deliver our service the customer didn't realize any game and we didn't make any money so we had to deliver value from a commercial risk profile these gains share contracts were extremely higher for the company I worked for because there was no major upfront payment there was no Oh buy this and trust us it will work but pay for it now it was partnered with us on this journey let us come in and deliver our services and we're so confident that we can deliver gain in the form of savings that we're going to pay ourselves out of that gain and ultimately we were able to do this then our commercial risk within the contract went down because we were earning gain and paying paying ourselves if you look at it the other way around in terms of the contract value on the x-axis with a gain share model the more value we delivered the more we got paid eventually we'd be able to get our customer acquisition costs back which were a factor for this type of business way before cat and cat payback was even a part of the dialect in business these these uneconomic surround while we're paying to acquire this customer we need to get that money back and now there's a time period within which we need to at least be able to deliver some value to get that customer acquisition cost back which is a concept I think most of us will be familiar with and very important to software businesses today with recurring revenue models it was absolutely a feature here and so our contract success in this success of our business depended on delivering value ie gained through the delivery of our services to make sure that on day one we had this trend in the game share model in terms of us being able to make money and obviously the customer realizing value we instituted this process around we were compelled to have this process around defining what the value was and defining what the gain was if we didn't have a watertight agreement with Barclays for example Barclays Bank around what is the definition of gain how are we going to measure it how are we going to value it and get them to agree that contractually and this is why I wasn't in Canary Wharf so often it's Who I am because I was with lawyers just hashing this stuff out all pre-sell because if we didn't get that clearly defined then there was huge risk that my company wasn't going to get paid so we had to do that during the sales motion during the acquisition motion and this was our pre-sale strategy and we had to get all of this done before day one of the contract before day one of the customer lifetime because from day one we had to start delivering value achieving that gain because my company needs to get paid so we fast forward now to 2019 subscription economy has exploded ing to Zora and it seems to be true everyone here I think has an employer was working with a company in a company that has a recurring revenue model it might not be subscription per se maybe it's consumption if we break those models down it's extremely similar to what I was doing with gain share in the early to mid-2000s in that with gain share we need to deliver a successful service generate gain to pay ourselves with subscription licensing and subscription revenue in software it's the same concept we need to drive successful product adoption to get value realized by the customer if we can do that what we win through success what we get through successful adoption is retention and expansion which if you look at the unit economics which we're about to do in a subscription revenue model it's the lifeblood of our business and so that is how important and I think as customer success leaders and professionals here there's no question mark around the importance of adoption what's what is kind of what I'm trying to highlight here is the importance of nailing that concept around adoption as soon as possible and getting that ball rolling on day one because again our contract value in terms of the lifetime value LTV pretty popular metric arguably useless but it's a it's a good it's a good conceptual way at least to think about this problem that our lifetime value of our customer is driven by the ability to retain and expand the customer we retain and expand the customer by driving product adoption so our ability to drive product adoption mirrors lifetime value and if we can an AOL adoption we can nail a lifetime value we can make sure we get our customer acquisition cost paid back to us we can make sure we get that done as quickly as possible in terms of balancing the acquisition the ARR and and the and the the the subscription terms but we still need to retain them let's say cap payback for an enterprise company averages while good a good average is a year some get into eighteen months to two years but we need to be able to keep that custom and we need to be able to renew that customer at least for that time period to get that cap payback and we do that through adoption so you're not gonna be surprised where this is going in software today in 2019 in companies with a recurring revenue model we need to nail adoption we need to nailed value delivery and measurement and as we will again I think know CF professionals onboarding is critical it's the most important phase in our opinion certainly at value-wise of the overall adoption process to achieve adoption we need to get the customer to first value per the economics of the subscription revenue model that first value delivery and measurement needs to start as soon as possible what we at value-wise believe is to be error effectively the liver and measure that first value we have to complete these steps first and we have not got time in a b2b software subscription revenue model to do those four steps post sale it's just it's too risky from a time perspective it's too risky from a just an execution perspective in terms of do you still have executive stakeholder commitment and buy-in an interest etc etcetera etcetera to help you go through these steps once they've signed the PIO and they've sailed off to their next strategic venture so we believe that has to happen during the acquisition motion we believe it happens to happen through pre-sales pre-sales today though or what is happening pre-sales that we see in the b2b software companies we work with and talk to and a lot of my career was based in working in pre-sales and leading pre-sales functions and I did my best and succeeded mostly to move on from what we're about to look at but the reality today with pre-sales is that there are three core scenarios happening all of which certainly don't help execute that value lifecycle and often hinder it and therefore hinder our ability to successfully deliver onboarding let alone kickstart onboarding presale first one is that pre-sales are spending their time doing this all they do is turn up and they deliver dog and pony shows and again this could be the AE doing this or this could be someone with who's got the pre-sales title but they're out doing the dog and pony show they're saying hey my product has all these feature functions let me show you all these feature functions let me explain to you how they all magically combine to achieve this glorious high level value proposition or this big hairy audacious goal and try and differentiate on that basis this is not adding any value in terms of helping us understand how we can make this customer successful ie how can we get this customer to first value the other thing a lot of pre-sales teams and pre-sales functions people in the pre-sales world are doing is chasing geese in the form of working on RFPs and again very prevalent in the enterprise space and this kind of cycle of of just waving in the wind just achieving nothing of working on RFPs when they get when they are when the salesperson gets it in their spam folder and he's like oh my god oh my god and the fact that it's doing three days and has a million questions in it and they know nothing about the opportunity it's still Wow absolutely we've got to respond and so these people who are experts in your product and we'll get into the expertise concept in a second but these team members in your company who are experts in your solution your domain your product understanding your customers can have value based conversations and often perform this value cycle or wasting their time doing a lot of this now where they are able to engage with customers in a more meaningful conversation and use their expertise this is typically what happens in that scenario our company has a new strategic initiative to increase market penetration maximize brand loyalty and enhance intangible assets in pursuit of these objectives we start a new project for to require seven red lines I understand your company can help us in this matter of course water here will be the project manager water we can do this can't we yes of course Anderson here is our expert on all matters related to drawing red lines we've brought him along today to share his professional opinion nice to meet you well you all know me this is Justine our company's design specialist hello we need you to draw seven red lines all of them strictly perpendicular some with green ink and some of the transparent can you do that no I'm afraid let's not rush into any hasty answers Anderson the task has been set it needs to be carried out at the end of the day you are an expert the term red line implies to color of the line to be red to draw a red line with green ink is well if it's not exactly impossible it's pretty close to being impossible what does that even mean impossible it's possible there are some people say suffering from colorblindness for whom the color lines doesn't really make a difference but I'm quite sure that the target audience of your project doesn't consist solely of such people I'll simplify line as such can be drawn with absolutely any ink but if you want to get a red line you need to use red ink why don't we draw them with blue ink it still won't work if you use blue ink you'll get blue lines and what exactly did you mean when you talked about the transparent mm how does it explain I'm sure you know what transparent means yes and what a red line means I hope I don't need to explain to you you need to draw red line with transparent ink do you describe what you imagined the end result would look like come on Anderson where we got here kindergarten let's not waste our time with these unproductive quarrels the task has been set the task is plain and clear now if you have any specific questions then go ahead you're the expert here but that is unfortunately and again I mean any ones anyone feel their pre sales team doesn't spend most of their time doing one or some combination of those three things and it's a it's a missed opportunity lot of nodding heads and I think genuinely the team that we would regard as owning this pre-sales concept there's a lot of expertise in there there's a lot of value they can offer it in terms of helping execute our overall customer success strategy but they just need to be on a hand chain if you like from some of these traditional principles and I think some of these this framework I'm about to present and some of this sort of more actionable points in it maybes a way of at least starting the conversation with your team or pre-sales teams or your sales teams or if you're fortunate enough to be in an organization where you're already investing in this concept of customer success architects or whatever you're deciding to call them that you could start using this framework to optimize the role that they're performing and really again achieve this goal of kick-starting onboarding presale by focusing on how are we going to design and deliver this first value again as a reminder just very quickly the value cycle is value diagnosis quantification prescription and agreement the outcome of that is to allow us to start delivering value and measuring that value as quickly as possible as part of the onboarding phase and once we get that place of that values being delivered and the customer has seen a measurable results we designate onboarding as being complete so we need to think with the end in mind and we always kind of do this at value-wise we start with the end of mine and reverse engineer so how do we actually define the delivery of value and I bring this up not to be kind of have people sucking eggs or to be condescending but again in my professional experience across my career and then through the many organizations we help value-wise the question of what value does your product delivered and deliver and how do you measure it is shockingly not answered in a lot of companies and so we need to start there around how do how does my company how does my service how does my product deliver immeasurable value because if we can't define that we can't answer that question how can we possibly architect it how can we possibly prescribe it quantify it get agreement and diagnose it if we don't know what that value is and so some first principles to consider around that question of let's validate that we know what the value of our product and our service is that we can construct a first define a first value of make it measurable first of all defining adoption so value equals adoption value realization equals adoption defining adoption to us this is our definition of adoption adoption is the recurring achievement of measurable value which is realized by the customer through usage of the product it's not just simply the customers using the product they're using in such a way that they achieve measurable recurring value and within that definition sits the definition of onboarding and onboarding is the achievement of that first piece of measurable value through their usage of your product or products so that is kind of the first principle Weber and then we prescribe with that given to be able to deliver value we need to define the outcomes that are going to represent that value realization for the customer we believe those outcomes yes should be measurable we believe that they need to be prescriptive and this prescription is prescriptive prescriptive theme is again integral to what we do with the organization's we work because of the pressure of the unit economics of a recurring revenue model the fact that we can't spend whatever we like any more on customer acquisition cost unless we're selling like the biggest and most specialised of enterprise platforms but even there it's challenging to spend what we want on CAC these days and we certainly can't spend as much as we could possibly imagine we would will I've loved to spend post sale around retaining customers our customer retention cost because of that we can't go in with a blank canvas a blank sheet of paper to every customer and say tell me what outcomes you'd like to achieve and then work out how we're going to deliver those outcomes we need to go in and prescriptive we need to say these are the outcomes we achieve with our product or our service this is how we do it is that does that align with with what you're seeking to achieve so they've got to be prescriptive they've got to be detailed enough to serve as adoption milestones and outcome to us is not our product we'll help you make more money because I've never seen a product in my life that actually can measurably be accountable for making their client more money in b2b software they get a contribute to the achievement of making more money but there are so many variables that the software vendor can't control that relate to the making of more money that can't be their measurable outcome so we need to define what are the outcomes we call these things value-based outcomes in value eyes what are these outcomes that we like we can define that are measurable or prescriptive and that we as a vendor control the achievement of in conjunction with our customer and we can have accountability around and we as a vendor can be confident to sign up with the customer to achieve and put our subscription revenue model on the line for if we can define these outcomes we then needed to fire how we achieve those outcomes so we need to define what are the activities what are the roles what's the data we need what additional systems do we need to enable these outcomes to be achieved again in an efficient manner that efficiency drive again points back to the need for efficiency in our overall revenue model because of the pressure a subscription revenue model has around the efficiency side and again they should be prescriptive so why should they be prescriptive they should be prescriptive because again it gives you scalability and efficiency and that you've got a common set of player books that your CS team your PS team all the teams involved in delivering these outcomes they can follow it and you can drive efficiency economies of scale all that fun stuff it also needs to be prescriptive because it gives your customer and your prospects confidence that you know what you're doing and that you're not going in saying well I I've got this feature function collection here that resembles the software products you tell me what you want to achieve with it and how you want to achieve it customers don't want to buy like that anymore they want to be educated they want to be prescribed to you if you are familiar with say the challenge of sales methodology lots of data now where customers want to be prescribed to and this is a huge opportunity for customer success because we as customer success if we can build these prescriptions within our company we start to take control post sale because we know what's coming down the pipe we know that we're going to get customers who are looking for outcomes that we know we as a CS organization can deliver and they're looking to achieve those outcomes in a way that we can deliver so these are some of the principles we believe in and this these two here form the foundation of what we believe is the good-old customer journey map and customer journey mapping the existence of a customer journey map is yet massively overused term these days it's everyone's got a different definition within on a per company basis but to us this is the first layer this is the foundation of a customer journey map and from these principles and from their completion of these two design kind of exercises are born our playbooks for onboarding escalations excetera etc that our CS team can follow and out of those playbooks are born your success blocks and the other components that you need to have operationalized into tango to allow those playbooks to be executed so we see a three level hierarchy but we can't do level two which is the design of the play books we can't do level three which is the operationalization of those play books into tango and unless we do level one so this way we want to start so with that said if we've got those first principles in place we can now start architecting value pre-sale and again you can take this and start playing at post sale I mean this may be a oh my god I'm never going to get my sales organization my free sales organization or my own organization to start doing this pre sell in a month of Sundays which I get it's a it could be a political it could be a cultural thing it's not impossible we you can get there you can build a business case to get the change made but maybe this is something you just start applying in your onboarding process post sale but our prescription here from value-wise is to start doing this presale so value diagnosis out of our library out of our our medicine kit of prescriptions our prescriptive prescriptive outcomes we need to understand watch which of these will apply to the prospect so we need to do diagnosis we need to understand their current state again nothing particularly revolutionary here but the concept of discovery around what are the outcomes what's the value we as this we as a software vendor can deliver to our customer again it's done quite often in a very light-hearted way there's a lot of discovery done around how can these people buy my software but it's not much discovery often done around how can this company realize value for my solution but we need to do that diagnosis and we need to be able to understand their their current state at a quantified level so we need to be able to say okay we think we think these outcomes will get you to your overall strategic goals but for each outcome we want to understand how you're doing this today or not doing this today as the case may be so we can quantify a baseline and that enables us to start measuring and be measurable because it's all very well saying hey we now you've achieved this one outcome in onboarding you're this pro now he's now taking an hour a day great well an hour a day relative to what was it an hour and a half a day before or was it a week we need to better have that current state baseline to be able to provide the measurements which are meaningful for the customer to interpret the value that they've realized we've then going to prescribe this we've then going to prescribe this equation so we've diagnosed what the outcomes are we've got the due diligence done around what would the actual measurable gain be of achieving those outcomes and we need to prescribe that back to the prospect to say hey if you invest whatever it is this much AR are with us and subscribe to this product or platform this is the value you're going to realize and this is this is how we're going to measure it and again as I say this prescription prescription prescriptive motion is yes very powerful for an effective in almost in our opinion it's necessary to have an effective customer success strategy and specifically an onboarding process but it's a very very powerful sales motion and where we've helped a lot of companies change their sales motion to start accommodating this stuff that's the pitch we've used into the sales organizations to get them to change to say hey we've got a much better way for you to make sales and it's this the fact that it helps the CF strategy as well is is yeah is a nice a nice thing as well so we diagnose we put the fight we prescribed back we have to get a response back from the customer we have to get a response back from the prospect they have to agree to this why acquire a customer if then are either willing to achieve the value that you know you can deliver or Y&Y acquire a customer who is not willing to do the things that you know need to be done to realize that value or to achieve that value and I don't mean things just like you need to turn up to this enablement session you need to turn out to this onboarding session you need to make sure that you're your users who are are aware of what we're doing here and we need a communication plan in place it's more fundamental items like do we have your willingness to do what we need around data raishin for example and just prescribed this stuff out front and there's a typically a very strong hesitation within organization say well we we don't want to scare them off we don't want to say well this is what everything we're gonna have to do to get you to this value because they're gonna get scared off they're gonna sound it make it big and I think it's too complicated it's going to take too much time etc etc nonsense customers want to hear this and they're gonna buy from you because you tell them this and this is where the tango is we think in is very powerful as a vendor in this equation with their own customer success strategy and that they lead with this is what we're gonna do to get you to value in the sales cycle as opposed to trust us by these feature functions we'll get you to this big hairy audacious goal that's all you need to know doesn't work anymore and again but you need this from a risk mitigation perspective to say for onboarding onboarding is going to achieve this piece of value for you here's how you're going to measure it here's what it's going to be worth and here's what we're going to have to do to get you there and get the customer to agree that pre-sale we then hit day one with a plan to start getting them to value so in conclusion I'm about to get the hook everything leads back to the unit economics of your recurring revenue model that is how your business works this is how we build business cases for investments in customer success strategy customer success technology and so on the lifeblood of your revenue model is retention and expansion as we know onboarding as we know is critical to that overall customer lifecycle onboarding in our opinion is about achieving that first value and that first value needs to be measurable to achieve measurable value and and and deliver that to your customers we believe we need to follow this value cycle and we believe that within especially organizations where I think a lot of you are from enterprising organizations where you have some sort of pre-sales function made up of people who are experts in your products your domain your customers these steps can should happen pre sale and it's a amazing bridge to put in place that will connect your CS organization with your sales organization it's not about not about who's accountable for actually winning the deal or any of that stuff it's do we have these cons concepts defined because if we can we can then plug these into your success blocks we can have these define your goals for your success blocks and we nail onboarding as efficiently and effectively as possible I will pause there I could keep going for hours but appreciate your time any questions questions so taking a look at the pre sale strategy do you have any familiarity around medic yes and how does that fit in to the methodology that you're putting up here today I don't know a medic in in detail medic as an example of the I guess the the sales qualification discovery frameworks that are out there they all the like all these types of frameworks they they have their strengths in terms of certain objectives that they achieve for the organization whether it be a more efficient sales cycle or a more effective sales cycle from a win rate perspective what we look at even things like the more overall sales methodologies like challenger is that they're still focused ultimately and weighted towards acquire anyone at any cost and a lot of them are doing better now at removing the any cost element because they know it doesn't fly from a subscription revenue model cro sales leaders are getting measured on CAC so they need to be efficient there but the concept around acquiring the right customer acquiring the ideal customer profile that with where we see it with medic and the overall sales sales methodologies out there we still think is very very light and we still think customer success as a strategy as an organization has to come to the table demand a seat at the table in the acquisition motion to make sure this stuff is being done and we believe that trend is happening we believe that all we're seeing with the data exists that pre-sales as a function as a strategy as a as a team is increasingly coming under the CCO which is fantastic and they're becoming these customer success architects and doing this work as opposed to just turning up and demoing and doing dog and pony shows so the short answer is it has yes it goes to some to some degree it it will help with this but the framework I presented we believe is still it's it's lacking in most of these methodologies and that is not a case of one or the other it's just making sure we've got these key principle yeah I was gonna say Ross I've worked with the medic methodology before I don't think it's an either/or I think what Ross described actually complements it it just it goes a little bit heavier and some of that discovery you're doing but I think you can certainly work it into that framework or challenger or pick your solution selling methodology yeah and again it's there's especially in that framework there's a lot going on in there and if none of it's happening in your organization to today but you have at least completed the first milestone which is the definition of measurable value outcomes then just start with this step reverse-engineer it and just say right well we we can't just roll this entire thing in at least I hear at least I as a milestone in your sales process as a milestone in your transition process from sales to post sale do that customer agreement piece because it it's going to help your sales team win more deals apart from anything else but it's also going to give you that head start and that risk mitigation around onboarding any other questions okay look you right on time thank you [Applause]