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this episode is brought to you by knowing hospitality a full-service hotel management company that has developed a simple and straightforward management fee based on profit not revenue if you're a hotel owner that believes in a new way of doing business and want to learn more about the benefits of a profit-based management agreement visit knowinghospitality.com now let's get to the podcast when you're working with a customer you want to have a good solid relationship with them by the time you get to contract stage they know that you are looking out for their best their best interest and you have uncovered everything there is to know about why they're booking with you welcome to the proven principles podcast the show that deconstructs the inner workings of the hospitality industry breaking down the tools tips and tricks that the world's best run hotels use every day here's your host adam knight we haven't spent much time on hotel sales marketing on the show so we decided to dedicate a four-part series to all of the intricate phases of these critical disciplines we're talking with experts on how to get found by potential clients prospecting and signing contracts the changes to the booking landscape and getting your story out there this is the first episode of our sales marketing series my guests today are robin moncrief and nicki wade both robin and nikki bring 25 plus years of hotel sales experience across multiple brands and management companies they're also the hosts of the don't look under the bed hospitality podcast where they speak with industry leaders about the future of hospitality and promote the industry to the next generation of professionals this episode is all about contracts and negotiations we discuss the prospecting and qualifying process getting to the contract phase negotiation myths about hotel sales and marketing and much much more so let's get to it this is episode 76 of the proven principles podcast robin moncrief and nikki wade on hotel contracts and negotiations enjoy robin and nikki thank you so much for being on the show it's great to have you it's great to be here thank you don't look under the bed the podcast thank you both of you are the hosts i'd love to know how this show came to be for those uh that are listening right now that that haven't heard the show uh what's it about but also you know tell us a little bit about both of you what's been your your career arc to date i guess i'll start um don't look under the bed a hospitality podcast started with nikki and i just having conversations while we were furloughed from work so we talked about our job search what we were doing what we could do better things like that and then one day i was like you know what we should record this because i'm sure there are other people out there going through a similar situation so we started recording and then you know we just came up with more ideas well let's talk to some industry leaders let's talk to some hr folks to make sure that we're doing this right and uh and that's kind of like how it was born um we've been in the hospitality industry for me it's been 30 plus years and so i've dedicated my career to this industry and i want it to survive so that was my way of giving back and just promoting the industry and um and keeping keeping it alive so that people would still uh be interested in um you know enjoying the hospitality industry nikki how about you how was how's your career been to date uh how did you get to where you're at i i actually came into the industry on a different path i came in as an intern in college and i was able to work at a couple different types of properties and really figured out where i wanted to be and so it's been in the full service world is where most of my time has been spent and i'm about almost 25 years in this industry i love service i love the experience you know whenever you walk into a hotel it should definitely be an experience and just as robin said um while we were both had a little break while we were on our little away time uh during the pandemic we would just talk and just talk about all these different things in our industry and how you know how much we enjoyed it how much we missed it and something that i've realized is you don't really know how much you know until you start talking about it and so it's it's you know it just became something of let's share that that's a gift we can give to this industry let's try to um encourage people you know i'm not an expert on anything but if we can make people feel good let's do it yeah and you have a perspective on things that you've you've honed over many years and i think like probably a lot like you guys like when i i started the show in a very similar way got furloughed and eventually laid off from a corporate hotel position and wanted to just have those conversations wanted to have a seat at the table still and help people going through the same thing and it felt funny talking about my experience and and like who am i coming to putting out a show right and i don't know if you had that imposter syndrome feeling too at the beginning but over time you kind of realize like oh we're all going through the same stuff and you know it kind of helps to to maybe wallow a little bit in the experience that we all went through but at the same time you're just everyone's trying to find a path how do i deal with this and just getting more information helps you um figure it out yes you're absolutely right so i you guys are doing great work thank keep it up keep please keep going with the podcast because i love it but thank you what i wanted to to really dive into today this is the first in in four episodes of a sales and marketing series for hospitality and i was talking with nikki before we started recording i haven't had a lot of sales and marketing people on the show and that's not by design that's just my brain is so hyper wired towards operations that that the sales and marketing piece throughout my career and on this show has just been a bit of a blind spot uh and so there's a bit of a selfish nature to putting the series out to educate myself but i know there's a lot of operations folks who are in the same position uh where their only involvement is a site visit or dealing with a problem after the fact there's obviously a lot more to it so what i wanted to get you guys on to talk about today specifically was the the contracts and negotiation part um of the hotel sales part sales piece department um and it's probably a good place to start is are you guys waiting for the phone to ring or are you actively going out looking for people to book rooms with you how does maybe take us through explain it to us as if we're five-year-olds what is the start of this sales process so for me i am in a uh suburban neighborhood uh extended stay property so yes i am having to go back to sales 101 and actually um look for business i am a hunter so i am actively prospecting and looking for business for my particular hotel um so that's the sales process for me um [Music] it starts with preparation research um and just trying to figure out where the business is who has it and how you can get some of it so uh for me it is totally um i'm totally always in investigative mode i drive around the comp set to take a look and see what's going on in everybody's uh parking lot to see what what people are doing at breakfast and um to see you know just what's happening in the market so i am totally on the hunt okay checking checking checking reader boards yes yeah yeah yes um nikki is it similar in your world on my my world is a little bit of the opposite i'm at a downtown property actually properties in downtown and with us we are surrounded by corporations but a lot of people have not gone back to work so there may be you know a handful of business travelers here and there there are other things happening nearby that has kind of um has allowed us to have different opportunities uh we're surrounded by a lot of music venues and live music has come back so i'm slowly becoming this all things tour buses and crew person you know and you know which is very different i had a strong corporate business background but and leisure travelers we're starting to see them coming in and it's um it's really interesting how the landscape of our business has changed even just the other day i was talking to someone that their family member was graduating from college but the college had limited four tickets per graduate to attend so they wanted to book a meeting room where they could live stream this graduation and have their own watch party with the family members that couldn't attend that's nice that's a different angle totally you know that's i was like wow you know that's different that that's a that's a new um that's a new prospecting stream that i really had not considered right that with all these events coming on uh live or on you know virtual events that maybe there are people that want to get together and see them and all be in one place together so i think even though yes my phone does ring i still have to be hunting because i mean it's it's never going to be enough yeah you know our industry we had hotels close for months on end or opening back up with very limited staff so you're you're constantly in the looking mode hunting trying to figure out you know what's going on over here oh uh you know even dealing with restaurants will restaurants send managers out to train at restaurants there's a there's a long-term stay opportunity in that so it's it's constantly moving and thinking and trying to figure out how do we reinvent this thing so very different very different and the the prospecting side of what you do is is completely different gone are the days of of i assume right now that you know your your typical uh guest mix was very predictable very um you know and you you kind of knew how to layer in business and that's all just been completely blown out of the water now does that color how you look at potential business now or are you sort of like you know we there's a big hole now monday through thursday because business travels not what it used to be so we're willing to take a different type of guest mix in the hotel now are you still is it still a little more like regimented um for me it is uh there there's still some business out there there's just a matter of uh of uncovering it you know obviously and finding it um i work in an area that is primarily oil gas petroleum and energy um and obviously most of those folks are still working from home so i've had to go and look for other types of business so um training with insurance is still happening um there's uh the restaurants are booming now so restaurants are still opening and they're doing training um there's still lots of uh construction going on so i'm looking for um projects and construction crews so for me the business is a little bit uh is a little bit different um now just based on the area where i am but there are some out there you just have to find it uncover it what's the what's the process of getting from uh inquiry to contract what is the has that process or conversation with the client changed over the last couple of years i don't think it's changed um the phone doesn't ring like you said but if you do get an inquiry or a request for a proposal um the important thing is to be able to totally qualify it um to make sure that one it fits you know your product fits their needs and two you know they fit your needs so um you have to go through the entire sales process of you know qualifying it um totally and you know producing a proposal for them and you know getting the buy-in that your product actually works for them and then moving on to um you know negotiation and contract phase so you you still have to take all those steps i definitely agree with you there and what i find is uh those persons who were maybe the meeting planner or the travel person they may or may not be there anymore so now you're really taking it from you know the basic levels completely explaining to the person is is this what you're asking for and as robin said really qualifying that piece of business because you you may not be working with that seasoned or skilled meeting planner person anymore it may be someone who they said hey you know we need five rooms you know go figure it out and so now we're we're working that's that's our client that's our customer yeah so you so you're able to qualify the business um and the client you get to you get to that part where they're like okay send me a contract let's let's get into this here um what's involved in the negotiation process when you're trying to get a contract signed and i'm thinking specifically about like i've seen some sales contracts in hotels that are you know they're that thick you know 20 30 pages and full of clauses and and you know there's protection for the hotel i mean there's a lot of demands on the client um when you when you get into that is it more there's more negotiation going on than just you know uh room rate right like how much they're going to pay right there there's a lot more here so can you maybe give us some perspective on how those conversations usually go i think um and this has been my experience if you qualify it properly and get everything out on the table um during the proposal stage your contract and your negotiation gonna go a lot smoother so when i say that uh you know obviously um when you're working with a customer you wanna have a good solid relationship with them by the time you get to contract stage they know that you are looking out for their best their best interest um and you have uncovered everything there is to know about why they're booking with you um i can use for example a group maybe like a medical um a medical supply group is coming to the hotel and so i want to i want to find out what their goals are i mean at the end of the day what is it that you want to achieve um i want them to know that i'm interested in their success so just the rfp will simply say i need a meeting room for 12 people from one to five and that's all you get well there's more to that it's like well why what's the purpose of the meeting um what is it that you hope to achieve you know by the time you have all of the conversations and you're able to extract what the end result is i end up finding out that the medical supply company is uh courting somebody to sell their product to so they're trying to impress someone so at the end of the day they need to look good okay and that's just kind of just on a surface level just an example of being able to find out and uncover what actually is the uh the end result that the client is looking for and so i think when they know that you're generally interested in what it is that they want to achieve and you know they know they know what their goal is they know what it's going to take for them to be successful you just need to get that out of them and i think that the negotiations um go a little smoother so yeah you do have people that will send you an rfp with 30 different things on it and it's an ask but you'll be able to to suss through that so that's that's kind of like my experience yeah nikki do you do you find that uh where we are today that you're dealing with less savvy uh clients or la maybe that's not a nice way to say it just make less experienced so they don't like you have to walk them through the process more so then they're sort of like they just sort of have a list of questions that they need to hammer out one thing for me is contracting with with anything whether it's a hotel or you're making a major purchase it should never be scary both sides should understand and even even for myself i i'm reading through the contracts making sure i understand and can fully explain every clause on that paper and then if there are questions about it you know okay well let's talk about this you know what and and getting feedback from the clients because sometimes people don't know and then i never want anybody to walk away uh from doing business with me feeling like i wasn't clear or they didn't understand and even the tough conversations you know sometimes i'll tell a client hey you know i understand you're saying this is what you want let me suggest this or let's let's let's let's do this instead because you know maybe it protects them and maybe they don't realize they they need that but i just feel like if you handle things the right way in the beginning you you will have a return customer people will follow you they'll come back to you they'll send other people to you so it's just really handling and it's that relationship it's totally about the relationship yeah i imagine that there's a um [Music] not that you're not on the client side but you have to make sure that they know that you're not being predatory in the contract phase in that negotiation phase you're not trying to lock them into something by pulling the wool over their eyes or you know that there's something buried in a deep deep in a contract that nobody's going to see sure it's really that when you talk about relationship building i i imagine a lot of that is just making sure that you're seen as a partner and a and a shepherd kind of through the process rather than just a transactional relationship yep that's actually the part about creating the value is being um yeah is being the partner and educating them um and just letting them being able to speak to every clause that's their contract another example i can use is you know how sometimes you get inquiries or um somebody will call like you said maybe somebody that is not as savvy and they'll say um i need to to do a dinner for a hundred people um during a date where it's not a catering free sale well the catering manager is going to say well we don't have it available and so this person is like calling every hotel in the area trying to find space well nobody has stopped to tell them hey let me tell you what's going on uh the catering functions without rooms they're booked within a 90-day period so call us back and uh you know if there's space available you know we can move forward but at this time there's not going to be a hotel that's going to offer you space without rooms outside of you know whatever the parameters are and people appreciate that you know just like oh well i had no idea i've called like 15 hotels and and nobody has space what's going on and it's like that's what's going on the the space the space comes with the rooms and some people don't know that and so it's it's just a matter of again educating um you know educating the client and people appreciate that and just like nikki said you know with with clauses and things like that it's just a matter of uh making them feel comfortable and that you are um that you are literally that you are on their side and it is a partnership is there something or situation that you've you found yourself in where the client you're dealing with somebody who's not that who's not who hasn't really done a lot of this and they're not asking enough or they're not asking the right questions um because and you're sort of intuitively know as you're talking to this person like if we don't cover this this could be a problem down the road so is what do you do when you find yourself in that situation do you do you really like do you lead them down a path or do you say like oh don't you want to know about this don't you want to know about that because you haven't asked yet that once for me where i really oh yeah i can take i was going to use an example of um attrition when you're dealing with rooms attrition that's something that people may not be aware what you know rooms attrition what like if i have 10 rooms and i only use five then you can just go sell the other five and we're like no that's not quite how that works so then that's and i always go back to rooms attrition and i explain it to them in detail and then also i put the dollar amount with it you know if you don't perform here you're going to owe me this much and and i've even told uh clients i don't want to have this tough conversation with you so let's talk about it right now you know maybe we can adjust your room's block see how it looks and if you need more we can give you more but you know it versus going down this path and then i have to call you and send you this letter and all these things that aren't very fun you know let me be up front and explain to you how this works and then you tell me and and nine times out of ten they totally appreciate it they get it and it's oh i didn't know and thank you so much that's what happens so i that's that's just being a good partner yeah it really is that's just being a good partner yeah yeah i'm glad you brought up the uh the attrition piece because i have a uh there's always been this this um narrative on the op side about uh contracted blocks versus pickup versus what actualizes um and how in some i don't want to put you on the spot but in some uh sales um uh uh incentive plans that it it sometimes it appears from those that don't work in the sales department that there's a um that the actual pickup doesn't matter it's just whatever gets gets contracted that the salesperson is um is incentivized to do is there are there any myths out there about that perspective that i'm guessing that that's a wrong perspective but um can you maybe shed a little bit of light on what that looks like from your world um in my experience adam i would say um what's contracted that's what we agreed to with the client okay um i have always cut it back by 20 25 so i allow for attrition um in the system so that's been my experience i mean yeah we're giving the client 25 rooms on paper but in the system you know i'm literally blocked yeah so i i cut my blocks just to allow for that that sort of thing and that's just me i don't know how others do it but i always want to be uh be a little conservative um a client will always come in and say oh i didn't you're like you're like no you know for five nights and you're like yeah we would we want to give you 80 rooms for five nights but we know it's going to be 20 you know and then 25 and then you may peak at 47 um and then go back down so just knowing that um you know and that's a part of the conversation once again uh when you know the history um if you need to uncover that that history so that you can know okay well when they were in san diego this is what they actually picked up when they were in nashville this is what they actually picked up so i'm not going to block 80 rooms for five nights you know because that may preclude uh some of my other team members from booking something so you know we want to make sure that it's accurate yeah that's a really good point is the the collaborative nature of of of the sales people in a hotel all working together right you don't want to just you don't want to take a you know a block that prevents to your point everybody else from being able to get business in there i think that opens you up probably to a lot of risk too i mean the whole point about layering layering in business is that it reduces the risk during the week if a block doesn't pick up then you're like well we're 48 hours out and we need to sell 100 rooms that's true i was just gonna say um to robin's point that um you do have to work together and then i've worked at places where they had we called them uh the re-valves so you'd put your group rooms in they'd come in and even if you wash the numbers down you know you did your cuts by 20 and then they picked they only picked up two rooms then it would go the other way yeah and you know you'd be getting these negative numbers so it it's i think it's just being a good steward of the hotel and your resources how much leeway do you have to negotiate the particulars of a contract i think everything is different every contract is different there are different markets so if if you're working in an association on an association group you typically know that goes through committee so that's a long booking cycle so that takes a long time to kind of get through all the different authorizations and approvals that it needs to go through um for corporate so if you have an oil and gas company it's like okay they can call you friday and they could be here on monday uh same with the pharma or you know a local medical technology um group so i would say it's all um it's it's all relative to to the specific market nikki same experience yeah it it really is and yes and um i mean i've done like sports and so negotiating with teams is far different from probably anything i've ever done uh it's just the ask with them it it looks different there's certain things they absolutely have to have and you know you have to okay well you know let me see if i can get you 200 pounds of ice or you know you just you just have to do it so it does the the different uh the different industries they they lead you into what that negotiation is gonna look like that's a really good point and i'm wondering if there's uh if you've got an eye on uh especially if it's a new client how much future business you're able to get from somebody like what is is there a lifetime value of this client that has to be part of the consideration when you're in the negotiating process because it'd be really easy to just say no this is the clock this is what it is this is what it is but if you can establish a long-term relationship with with a new client maybe you'd be willing to be more flexible absolutely again it goes back to uh qualifying it that's going to be one of the first things on the table when you're talking to them where have you been in the past um what has worked well uh what's the what's the repeat value of it who's the decision maker what's the decision-making process um you know what are the factors to make the decision who else are you considering so all of these things are are items that need to be on the table before there's a proposal even presented so um you asked about clients asking questions before it's it's not them asking questions it's us asking questions and being able to uncover everything and that's been my my experience no i think that's that's absolutely actually really interesting perspective i think it's uh um i i like that it keeps coming back to to you leading the conversation you're always trying to figure out if this is the right client for you and it's through those lengthy discussions um and you might be i imagine you're working sometimes on a client for weeks until you get to the contract phase oh sometimes months yeah years yeah for sure that is so true it's well just depending on the the markets that you have oh true yeah good point uh nikki i'm sure that you've found yourself in a position yeah because if you're in an association yeah uh i i'm sure nikki you've found yourself in a position where uh a talk has fallen apart and you thought you were there and they're just like no we're pulling back for whatever reason um what are what are some of the most common reasons for this that you've you've found in your discussions what i when that happens like i immediately start wondering what did i miss you know especially when it's something that i felt like i had it you know it was within reach and i usually am able and again it's the relationship able to go back and say has anything changed what has changed and sometimes it's just they really prefer this brand i was trying to get them to go somewhere different but the decision maker really prefers this i more or less look at that as that's the time to um kind of kind of look at how i'm selling did i ask all the right questions or you know had i thoroughly checked out who the competition was to be able to say okay well why are you looking over there you know what are those guys doing um so it's and and sometimes you you do lose business you work hard on business and you lose it and it and it could have nothing to do with you but it could just be that you know what so-and-so got married there and they just wanted to go back you know things that are totally beyond your control um and that just comes with doing your due diligence and and knowing having everything out there and in front of you is it uh robert is it possible to get things back on track have you had any are there any tips or things that you've done that that can kind of bring them back to the table i think so um in my case i would say negotiations typically will fall apart again it goes back to that qualifying phase if you didn't find out who the decision maker was so all this time i've been talking to adam and adam is merely collecting information and i sent adam the proposal well adam can't say yes or no so i should have found out that he wasn't a decision maker but i need to talk to adam's supervisor so you can start over again and get back on track by just merely stating hey you know adam is it possible that i can speak with uh your supervisor um nikki and kind of discuss you know what what she's looking to get out of this uh meeting or whatever and so you can get it back on track um you know that way sometimes the negotiations fall apart because uh the customer had no intention of buying from you you know they just wanted to get a bid so that they can get a lower price perhaps at their current vendor you know so that happens you know sadly but i mean that's the reality but you can absolutely get back on track you can't you just have to go back to those qualifying questions and and make sure that um that you ask again and and uncover whatever it is whatever the obstacle is that is i love that that advice about finding out who the decision maker is that was when i started doing consulting that was the first lesson that i learned because you go through that whole process and you think you're there and at the end of the day you're relying on a third party who's not really interested either way to relay your story information um and you know you i mean play that game and telephone you know how that goes yeah yeah so just go straight to the top that's right even though the your direct contact may not be the decision maker you still have to find a way to keep them involved so it's it's usually like this person might be the influencer whereas uh their supervisor may be the decision maker so we wanna you know let's keep everybody close you know because usually you do end up back with the uh influencer after the decision has been made so it's it's important to uh build those relationships on both sides yeah that's that's actually a really good point um and which is it just brings this whole conversation full circle uh that it's all about relationships and cultivating that connection with people which is what we're trying to do every day regardless of your position in a hotel right you're just you're your audience is different depending on your position but it's the same goal um i uh i'm just curious to get from both of you before we wrap the show here any um anything actionable that that in your experience that you've you've seen that that either a salesperson maybe someone junior coming in or that a company you've worked for in the past or hotel you were from the past maybe could have done things a little bit differently is there some piece of actionable advice that you could give to that that new salesperson or that hotel company that's struggling that could help propel them to the next level gosh i would say for any hotel salesperson the sales training is absolutely key take advantage of those two weeks that you're on boarding and really get to know obviously your product but your market um and take advantage of all of the online learning there's so much now um you know whether it's marriott or hilton or even linkedin where you can get different perspectives hotel sales is a lot different from say for instance um um [Music] car sales um because you've never met that person before you know you're walking in and you're walking out you don't know that person but hotel sales you're gonna meet somebody they're going to send you an rfp or you're going to talk to the phone with them and that's your opportunity to start building that rapport and building that relationship um so i would just say you know take advantage of of all the training and and that that person deserves the proper onboarding nikki how about you that's yeah that's absolutely correct in uh the training portion i mean i think about there's things that i do 25 years into it that i learned at my very first hotel job and it's funny because we laugh about it but it always works and and i i think that's that says a lot to the um the strength of that training and the conviction of that you know we and and learn how to deal with conflict if you're a new salesperson learn how to deal with conflict and negotiation it will save you if you're able to really become strong with it and and confident in what you're doing you know it's just hospitality cells it's changed it's changed a lot but some of it is still very much the same the fundamentals are the same just uh you know it's uh that maybe the clients are changing and their needs are changing but that's um one one last question then we'll wrap uh it just came to me here what do you want the operations people to know about what it is that you guys do day to day or uh maybe bust a myth that you think might be out there i come know we'll have to come back because the perception is we live up there in the crystal castle and we're having lunch and and cocktails with clients every day but i mean just know that we are working we are working for y'all we're working for operations so that there are you know that there's business that there's revenue that there's you know hours for housekeeping and for banquets we that's that's what we're doing i mean our names are on those contracts so we are uh you know there's an expectation there and so we're we're working for you guys yeah absolutely that's yeah we're we're on the same team you know just we just play a different role but we're all in the same team and that sales we're we're not just doing things or uh promising things to oh let's see if they can make this work no that's not the case we're all on the same team and the communication i feel like i i always let my operations team know i'm available if there's a question i i never want to throw someone out there and i'm not standing there next to them and we're holding hands so let's you know let's work together we're on the same team yeah i i love that i i remember telling um people if if it wasn't for what you do every day we wouldn't have hours we wouldn't be able to send our kids to school we wouldn't be able to put food on the table because you know up until maybe this is going to change but staffing and scheduling was always occupancy based we we need those rooms so people can get ours um and so it is all everybody's connected it's right it's symbiotic for sure yeah um if anybody wants to learn more about either of you or your podcast what's a good place for them to go uh we're both on linkedin and they can find us on instagram and facebook at don't look under the bed uh pod and um where else nikki that's yeah i think that's it that's it that's it okay well i'll link to everything in the show notes if people want to just uh scroll down and you'll find it on your podcast player there uh robert nikki i appreciate you being on uh i appreciate you being the first episode of the sales marketing series i hope it provides value for people out there but either way i appreciate you guys bringing your expertise on and keep up the great work with the podcast thank you so much we appreciate the opportunity thank you this was my episode with robin moncrief and nikki wade you can learn more about their podcast on instagram at don't look under the bed pod to hear past episodes or check out our other content go to theprovenprinciplespodcast.com thank you so much for listening to the show you can subscribe wherever you get your podcast and while you're there please leave us a rating in a review i'm adam knight and you've been listening to the proven principles podcast until next time [Music]