Uncover a Sales lead opportunity for product management

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hey everyone my name is Evan Lewis and this is both sides of the product perspectives from a Sales Leader turn product manager let's dig in so I want to start off with three core reasons why you should care and why you should listen to this conversation we may have never met before but I wanted to give you a little bit of background on a little bit of my experience and hopefully why this talk will be worth your time today number one is I've been working in early-stage startups non-stop since 2012 so going on seven years I guess and I've had a ton of battle scars from trying to build companies I started a company right out of school and then I got into another stuff startup and another one and that leads me to point number two which is I failed a lot I've had a ton of failures throughout my career but I wouldn't trade any of those for the world because that's led to a tremendous amount of great lessons learned and it's helped me figure out you know signal from the noise in terms of how to actually go about building good companies and the third one is that I've played a number of different roles in my startup career that I think give me some pretty unique perspectives so I started out as a founder then I turned into a sales individual contributor than a Sales Leader and then I'm now working full-time as a product manager at post beyond so I think that mix of you know within that sort of seven eight year time frame having done a lot of different roles gives me some fairly unique perspectives on top SAS growth which I hope you find interesting in this talk today so the three main things that we're going to cover in this conversation number one I'm going to dig into why I believe product lead growth is the future of SAS obviously if you're tuning into the product lead summit you've got some idea of product led growth being an important topic but I'm going to share some of my ideas for what I've seen in terms of patterns and SAS and why I believe product like growth is the future number two is I'm going to try to prove to you why I think product managers have more impact on revenue than Account Executives so get excited for that and number three is if you are thinking about transitioning from sales to product which is traditionally fairly the fairly nonlinear path and something that you know if you are in a sales role you wouldn't often think that salespeople could be successful in product that's a transition that I've made and I've seen some patterns for what makes salespeople successful product managers and so I'm going to share some of those patterns that I've seen and how salespeople can really excel in a product goal so I won't spend too much time on this because it's boring you want to you don't want to know too much about me but essentially I've had an a rollercoaster of a SAS career so far started with a business degree then Doven to code had first learned Ruby on Rails front-end web design and development but into my first startup at you know 22 and was doing mostly product that company failed got into post beyond as the first sales hire sold for about three and a half years then had a bit of an identity crisis where I wasn't exactly sure what type of work I wanted to be doing and now I'm posting on first product managers so if you want to boil that down and put it into emoji terms which is kind of fun essentially I went from you know choosing entrepreneurship over investment banking to falling in love with building products on the web to being extremely code happy thinking that I knew everything when really I didn't build a lot of product which led to my startup failing miserably built a bunch of stuff that people didn't exactly want then you know towards the bottom here I thought my first company failed because we didn't sell so I wanted to learn how to sell and that is why I got into post Beyond learned to sell in a lot of different capacities for three and a half years and then about six to eight months ago had a bit of a crossroads where I said you know sales is fun I've learned a tremendous amount the money is great but I really started to see these patterns emerging and I started to you know itch for more creativity for more impact on revenue and just to do you know something to help the company scale and ultimately that led me to product so again it's been a winding road both sides of the product and that you know happy to be back on the product management side currently and yeah like I said the sales journey was amazing I wouldn't trade it for the world but I made the switch back to product and there's really two core reasons or two trends in sass that I've seen emerge over the past specifically the past three or four years that have led me to want to switch back to product the first one is the emergence of these hyper growth models from product led SAS companies so you think about the slacks the vidyard the drifts of the world these are companies that reduce friction they let anyone in to the top of their funnel they have you know get started or try it out buttons on their website and ultimately the more that they reduce friction the more they light users in to get value from their product without having to pay a dime the more that they grow faster right so product led companies are customer obsessed they want to let the user realize value without needing to talk to a salesperson or put in their credit card and you know they let the product speak for itself and that's how they drive growth amongst other things so you know as I've seen these companies grow incredibly quickly I've seen you know the power of product LED growth first hand the other key trend that I saw is the change in buyer expectations so when you think about what I was selling it would be a constant battle to you know to be talking to prospects who said do you have a free trial can I get an account you have a you know some sort of freemium experience I want to try before I buy and that's a trend that I really I believe is not going away buyers want to try before they buy they want experience first and advice second so that's a very different model for you know maybe five six years ago where people were very used to you know requesting a demo getting on an intrical getting on a discovery call that's still a model that works today lots of companies have the request a demo on their site we do I post beyond you know we're working towards a product like growth model but the reality is products need to be able to stand and sell on their own to some degree without sales and if you're not adapting to these changers changes and buyer expectations you're not growing as quickly that's the reality people want to get their hands on a product and then you know experience it get as much as they can out and then talk to someone to get advice just to illustrate the power of product lead growth I wanted to tell the story of the tale of three funnels and this is actually a true story from a purchase that I made very recently so when I started in the product role I post beyond I was charged with a number of different things but one is we needed to build out a Best of Breed product technology stack and as part of that we were looking to buy a number of different pieces of technology but for one in particular I you know we've identified that this is the highest priority for us and so I went in and started doing research I looked at a number of different players in the space and I ended up with sort of three top selections so the first election I went to their website I requested a demo we ended up getting on an intrical in a demo with a sales rep sales rep was good I went to the website looks at some of their content I went to g2 crowd and looked at their reviews everything was fairly ok right that led us to doing some sales back and forth and we had two phone calls with this company cool the next business took a fairly similar approach we requested a demo on their website the sales rep was quite knowledgeable and their product was pretty robust they had good content on their website and they had fairly strong jeetu crowd reviews that led us to a bunch of emails back and forth we had a number of phone calls I brought in some different folks from my team to evaluate and I also got deeper into some of their content downloads on their website now the third company took a very different approach and I really want to illustrate here this is the power of product LED growth in flipping the funnel and catering to how people want to buy today so rather than having me request a demo and create all this friction by talking to sales first step was tested out try the product get your hands dirty and really you know start building out some of the core flows and pieces of functionality that you would want if you would here were to actually purchase the product right away so I got my hands dirty you know started using the product downloaded the browser extension and after I had you know I've gotten the experience I was excited about the experience then I was able to reach out to sales for help and I really want to highlight that point because coming from the sales seat formerly as a sales person the most powerful position you can be in is if you're in a position of expertise if you're the one who is giving guidance you're you've got the expertise and you're teaching the prospect that's how you really know you're in a good situation is this the prospect is looking to you as a resource and this product LED growth model is perfect because I can get the experience first and then I reach out to sales second and it immediately puts them in a position of expertise and it just so happened that when I did reach out they were extremely helpful very knowledgeable the product experience I had was really good and their reviews were extremely strong so that led us to not only did we have the typical sales engagement we actually had less phone calls but we had the added benefit of building out several product flows that were shown hundreds and hundreds of times so I knew the product work and ultimately that's the purchase I want with so it just shows how flipping the funnel and focusing on a product lead go-to-market strategy can really help you drive revenue this is another thing that I like to sort of nerd out on I really believe that product LED growth is the future because you can understand true buying intent with product usage let me explain what I mean there because as a salesperson formerly it's incredibly difficult to tell the signal from the noise as a salesperson you're always trying to understand is this person real are they going to buy this week this month this quarter how do I know that and the typical data that you have is are they opening my emails are they responsive to my calls maybe they're reading some content on the website and the magic here of product lead growth is if you can get your product in the hands of the prospect during the sales process and you can understand if they're actually getting in and you know getting value from their product are they inviting people are they you know getting to those core metrics that you know are they investing their time and energy into the product that is such a more clear and true show of buying intent than downloading some content or spending some time on the website because you can be kicking tires and just educating yourself for months and months and months but if you're spending time to actually get into the product and get deep into it you're much more likely at least in my experience to be ready to buy and if you if sales is armed with that buying intent and usage intelligence it makes a sales team so much more productive because they can understand who's real and who's not quite ready so I have a secret I moved from sales to product full-time to get closer to revenue now before you freak out let me explain there's three core reasons why I fundamentally believe someone like a product manager is closer to revenue or has more impact on revenue than sales and again this is coming from a former salesperson the patterns that I've seen on both sides and really why I think you know product especially in today's world of sass is so much more impactful on revenue than meant sales and we're going to break this down into the core components of a sass bundle so number one is acquisition exactly like we just said with that product led growth approach in the tale of three funnels product can accelerate acquisition so in an age where buyers are extremely skeptical people are going to buy based on the product and if you can give your buyers a great free product experience during the sales cycle buyers are much more comfortable and motivated to move quickly so I really want to highlight the word comfortable there because you know having done lots of deals and SAS buying is difficult right ultimately you need as a buyer to rally a number of different stakeholders you need to build a business case the bigger the purchase you know the more decision makers that are going to be involved and if you're if as a prospect or a buyer if you're not comfortable bringing all these all those people in you're not going to move very quickly and the deal is not going to close you know half as fast so the getting your product into a prospect hands and getting them to feel you know this isn't vaporware this is a real thing it works it's easy to use that makes people much more likely to buy quickly rather than you know having to just go on a salespersons word that the product actually works so product accelerates acquisition you know top of funnel then once someone becomes an actual customer I've seen firsthand that product carries the weight of retention so we all know that in SAS any company wants to minimize churn and what's the most common reason that people churn you know is in a SAS business you have your platform you have services you have content etc ultimately you know your services can only go so far right you know we have you can have most amazing team but if the product is a letdown if the product doesn't automate usage and engagement if the product isn't sticky enough to bring people back for more ultimately you know people aren't going to they're not going to stay with you for years and years and years the product experience has to be able to stand up on its own and it has to be able to carry the weight of automating retention and engagement now number three is products has the power to automate expansion so if you think about you know the models like slack right for any of you who are listening here who have bought slack or been involved with purchasing that product when's the last time you talked to a slack sales person you probably never have right but pretty likely that you got a few people on you know maybe you've got one team onto slack and then they invited more teams and that the product automated the invite the expansion the additional Lices licenses and it automates the conversion of new users to habitual users to you know extremely loyal users right so that's something that ultimately sales can't do sales as much as they want to sell additional licenses you know they can they can sell the dream of expansion but product has the ability to actually fulfill and then automate that expansion I need to clear my throat sorry I just get so excited about this stuff school so those are three core reasons across the funnel why I think product is closer to revenue than sales here's another interesting take on it so if you think about purchasing decisions and you think about SMB purchasing decisions versus mid-market versus enterprise on the left here we've got an SMB so let's say this is up to $5,000 a year in terms of annual contract value if you're buying a product that's that that's that small how do you think about your purchasing decision my argument is and this is a disclaimer that the figures above are estimates and this is just based on my experience if you're making a smaller purchase eighty percent of that purchase is going to be because of the product and the experience you have with it likely you're not going to be talking to a sales rep very much so maybe five percent of that purchasing decision is based on your experience with a rep and you know some of it may be influenced by content so you know an SMB purchase you're probably spending more time with content than you are with sales and services probably aren't even a thing so you know in that case the smaller the purchase the more the onus is on product to actually sell itself then when you get into mid market it becomes a little bit more balanced so these I actually stole these figures from one of our sales reps he told me that he believes about 50% of the purchasing decision in the mid market is based on the product 20% is based on the services the company provides 20% is based on the interaction with the sales rep does the prospect like the rep are they knowledgeable etc and then maybe 10% is based on content again these are broad strokes generalizations but just trying to paint that picture then when you get into the enterprise it's a little bit more balanced the sales rep is you know there's more meetings there's more internal selling to be done so you know the product isn't everything but you know and services is obviously very important than the enterprise as well so that starts to balance out but if you break this down across all these types of purchases you could say that on average 60% of the buying decision that someone makes is based on the product let that sink in for a bit right 60 percent of the buying decisions is made based on the product if you take that number and apply it to a sales pipeline so in this case we've got a sales team and they've got five account executives right if we look at one Account Executive let's say on the top AEE at my company and we're trying to compare the revenue impact that I have versus the revenue impact that our product manager has so I'm the top rep I've got $375,000 in pipeline my close rate is 20% so you know within the year I'm gonna close seventy five thousand dollars worth of business that's obviously pretty small hopefully your pipelines are bigger than that but you know we'll just take that as an example so that sales rep is going to do $75,000 worth of deals if you look at a product manager the product manager you know the AES will go narrow and deep with their specific accounts the beauty of product is product has the ability to touch every single one of these AES deals obviously you know they're not product doesn't have full ownership over those deals the AEE owns the deal but product is going to influence every single deal in a SAS pipeline so if you're looking at the product leader there's 1.15 million in total pipelines for this company the total revenues that they're going to get at a 20 percent win rate is $230,000 products influence if we go back to the last slide is 60 percent of the overall revenue that a company will make therefore we could argue that products revenue impact in this case is 138 thousand dollars which is you know almost double what an AE would be able to bring to the table so obviously product isn't always getting you know those Commission checks but if you think about it in terms of a modern SAS business the impact that a product person is going to have on sales is you know as much at least as much if not significantly greater than what an individual rep can do now I want to be extremely clear that I am NOT on sales I am a former salesperson I will be a you know a salesperson at heart forever and I really believe that sales teaches you the fundamental skills that can be applied to any role you have in the future it was such an amazing you know building block learning experience for me in my career and I think the magic in SAS is if you have an amazing product with product lead go to market so you know you're letting people try before they buy and that experience from freemium to conversion to upsell is product lead if you have those two things plus you have smart thoughtful salespeople that's how you achieve beautiful high growth scale in today's set and you know I would welcome any you know anyone's opinions but from what I've seen that's really the magic in in the world of SAS today why do I bring up my friend dr. evil here we're not so different you and I so as I have been thinking about you know as I made the transition from sales to product I've really started to I always love to look for patterns and I've consistently seen throughout you know the last six to eight months these patterns emerge for the things that I learned in sales how those can be applied to a role in product and ultimately how those can make you successful and so I wanted to highlight you know if you take an account executive and a product manager really they're not that different as dr. evil would say so Account Executives prioritize their accounts and opportunities based on the level of customer pain that exists Account Executives need to rally a committee of stakeholders to purchase their solution if you've if you've done deals you know rallying that buying committee is one of the difference one of the most difficult things you can do juggling stakeholders different personalities different priorities it's extremely difficult product managers on the other hand prioritize not accounts and opportunities for prioritized features and products updates also based on the level of customer pain so you know which deals should I focus on which features should I build it all depends on you know where is the pain the greatest and that's likely you know where you should focus veronik managers very similarly need to rally a group of developers rather than you know buying stakeholders product managers are rallying developer developers to effectively build and shift their solution so very similarly you know you're selling to you know your iOS engineer and your Android engineer and your back-end guy and your front-end guy you're trying to bring everyone together cohesively to build a great product so there's a lot of really interesting similarities between these two and I want to dive a little bit deeper on some of the core common threads that that make salespeople potentially great managers so I've tried to boil it down to 11 sales skills and again this is purely just based on my experience would welcome anyone's thoughts and feedback you know I'm not saying this is I know the be-all and end-all of great PMS and great salespeople but these are some of the patterns that I've seen that I think are pretty interesting want to call out you know why am I so passionate about this sort of the concept of common threads and how salespeople can transition to product the reason there is I found that these nonlinear career paths can carry a good amount of stigma all right so as I was selling and having success in sales I could really feel amongst my peers that I was branded as a salesperson and here if you're a salesperson especially if you're successful and the thought of you moving out of sales like whoa oh no like man you're a sales guy go sell like that's your thing so you know I really found that it was hard to sort of break that mold and to get people used to the fact that hey I'm actually passionate about this area and yes I had success in sales but you know I want to make this move and I want to make this change I'm lucky that my colleagues have been super supportive but the concept of nonlinear career paths I was director of sales I've now moved I'm now a product manager so I you know taking a step down in terms of seniority and that can have some you know the optics of that aren't always the best but I definitely want to encourage you if you're thinking about it it can be an extremely rewarding change the second thing is it's easy to get intimidated and you will heal them as the salesperson you know jumping into a product role working with developers you're gonna feel like a a lot of times but you just got to embrace that and and try not to get intimidated and hopefully you've got great folks around you to support you and the last reason here I wanted to talk about this specifically is it can be hard to find your bearings on do's and don'ts so really the goal here is if you're thinking about making a switch from sales to product these are sort of the anchors that you can have that made you successful in sales that you should carry I believe you should carry forward into a product goal to you know sort of have those do's and don'ts of the things that just from someone who's experienced it you know the things that you can sort of count on that made you successful in sales and bring those products so those 11 things are be passionate be curious be coordinated be likeable be self-aware be healthily skeptical they focused the analytical the understanding the prescriptive and be thorough that's spelled wrong but we're gonna roll with it cool so I've broken these down into three sections part one is around communication first one is deep passionate embrace the founder mentality so as a salesperson it's so so crucial to think like a founder and to really embrace the why of the company if you can clearly articulate why your company exists which is generally speaking you know the founders can do very well if you can have that founder mindset as a salesperson you know that rubs off on people and people want to buy into the vision very similar in a product role if you are able to clearly articulate you know why the company exists what we stand for what we're trying to do in the market to your developers that's something that people really buy into and they can get behind because it's clear that you stand for something number two is be curious softball questions are the key any good salesperson knows that questions you know open-ended and threaded questions are the key to getting deeper to building relationships to understanding pain points and understanding different stakeholder perspectives very similar from a you know working with your developers working with your customers and the more that you can structure your questions to be open-ended to get people talking and to really you know not close off the conversation not throw out yes-or-no things that you know make people feel heard and make them you know very clear make it very clear that you're interested in what they have to say and then listen very intently thoughtful questions are so so important and you learn that in sales and they're so applicable in a product perspective we already talked about this a little bit get coordinated so stakeholder alignment drives velocity I'll give an example from a sales perspective here so it's so easy in sales to be talking to different people and to be getting different answers and then when you bring everyone together the perspectives are not aligned and ultimately people aren't going to buy right so the faster that you can get everyone in a room get everyone on the same page get them agreeing to you know why this is the right direction you can address concerns people can you know have their banter that is how you get a deal done quickly right you have to have alignment across your stakeholders it's so so similar to when you're building products because if you're trying to find a solution to a product problem you could have to talk to a back-end developer and they can tell you one thing a front-end person might have a different perspective your designer is likely to have a different perspective your customers are likely to have a different perspective so really making sure that when you're trying to find a solution to a problem get everyone in the same room get them to debate because you'll always uncover things that you didn't know and it's very hard to understand you know whose perspective is the right one or maybe there's a solution you know that no one ever thought about so get everyone in the same room get coordinated it's going to lead to less confusion and more action for your team next one here is make friends sounds simple but I always talked about from a sales perspective if you don't know you know the person you're selling to if you don't know their girlfriend or boyfriend's name if you don't know where they grew up if you don't know what they like to do you're probably not gonna win a deal because ultimately people like to buy from people they're friends with or you know people they like very similar in a product perspective you have to really go out of your way to take genuine interest in your teammates your customers and your developers lives and so take genuine interest both personally and professionally second is be humble but know when to stand your ground and back it up with research so you know as a salesperson it's so you need to have your anchors you know what what do you know or what what's your company's take on the market that no one else knows right so making sure that you can stand your ground you can stand up to executives you can challenge them same sort of thing right if you're in conversations with your development team you have to be able to stand your ground and because people will try to push you around you have to have the have done the research you have to know you know here's the facts here's how I can stand my ground here's why I'm taking I'm taking this approach you still want to be humble and you know again be open to all perspectives but you know pick your marks and no one to stand your ground and then the last one is tell customer stories to make it relatable as a salesperson you would know that any you know customer story if you can put your prospect in the shoes of one of your customers who is already successful that helps them feel more comfortable behind same sort of thing working with your development team you know to a developer customers you know without a face it's hard for them to relate right so the more that you can say you know Mary at X company felt this pain point and it stopped her from achieving this goal the more that you can surface those stories that helps your your dev team relate and ultimately it just helps them buy into what you're trying to do as a business and helps you build your relationship with them this is a fun one as you can see I've got a lot of energy and this is something that I struggle with being self aware so energy and enthusiasm are very important in both sales and product management you need to be high energy you want to be getting people inspired getting them excited for the work that you're doing but you want to be aware of tone and timing so you're if you're working with your development team they may not you know there's a time to be high energy and there's a time to shut up and put your headphones on same sort of thing if you're in sales if you're selling to an executive your approach who's you know extremely serious your approach to them might be very different you know much more cut-and-dry much more numbers oriented then if you're selling to a champion who's you know more your age younger more casual it set up so be self-aware understand who you're talking to and then you know judge your energy your tone and your timing based on that part to prioritization got to give a shout out to Dilbert I love this let me know which group I should stop working on essential critical or must-have in both sales and product it's so hard as we talked about to get the signal from the noise and figure out which things should I work on first which deal should I work on first which feature should I build so one of the best ways to get the signal from the noise is to be healthily skeptical it sounds it sounds a little bit cynical but don't take everything at face value if someone tells you you know hey I think this deal is going to close tomorrow because this isn't this ask why right if someone tells you oh we need to build this feature and you know that's can you you know that's going to close this many deals and all that stuff you know we need this now I need to solve this pain point ask why peel back layers avoid the happy years you know don't take everything at face value because a lot of times that if you do it'll lead you to a rash decision and that'll end up you know you'll build something build a feature or without getting this whole input and maybe it's not actually the solution that you would have come up with if you would ask a few more questions so avoid happy years at all cost the next one is be focused seems easy because we're saying that in the prioritization section but the thing I think about here and the parallel between sales and products in sales having your North Star oftentimes is your ideal customer right so what does my ideal customer look like what's the size of business what industries makes sense what stakeholder groups do I normally have success selling to and if I have ten deals I should probably be focused on the ones that look most like our other customers that are successful it's so easy to chase deals people who are telling you the right things deals that sound great maybe it's a bit of a stretch you know that your ideal customer profile is your North Star in product your product vision is your North Star right so if you don't know where you're going how are you going to say you know okay if you have five features that you can build today you're going to scrap these ones and focus on this one having the product vision of where your business is trying to go is extremely important for prioritization and focus prioritize data and I will be the first to admit that this is something that I am constantly trying to get better at but without a foundational data layer you're driving blind there's a reason that salesforce.com is one of the biggest most successful fast businesses because Salesforce data is gold right it helps you understand which deals are moving quickly you know which deals have the most activity etc and if you don't if you're not using that data to inform your prioritization then you're driving blind right so you know we definitely encourage you to look at things like insight squared and funnel-cake these companies that help you look at your salesforce data and figure out you know which which actions you need to take at which times same sort of thing in product you know we're looking at installing segments and amplitude and a fuse and all these things to get that sort of foundational data layer because the longer you go making decisions based on instinct the more risk you run of making wrong decisions and going around down the wrong path it is so so easy no matter what role you're in to make assumptions and to justify those assumptions and to skip over the data so prioritize the data and get that foundational data layer in as soon as you we can part three is problem-solving so first one here is be understanding listen closely in a sales perspective you always want to be listening be the sounding board if someone's going to buy from you it's because they've got a pain point that they want to address if they don't have a pain point then you're probably not going to have a deal right so listen closely and diagnose pain and ask questions to get to the root of the issue that's what you know ultimately the best salespeople are listening 90% of the time and they're talking 10% of the time right same sort of thing from a from a product perspective exactly like we were just saying the more you make assumptions about people's problems or the more you jump to conclusions about what the problem is and how you can potentially solve it you could run the risk of missing what the actual problem is because they could tell you one thing but you ask is that I've had a lot of different scenarios where they say I really want this I really want this solution to solve this problem I have and then you ask okay well why do you think that's the right solution can you help me understand your problem a little bit better and the more that you peel back those layers and listen and ask thoughtful questions the more that you can get to the root of the issue and then clearly diagnose the pain once you've got your finger on the pain then you can come up with the solution and problem solve now once you clearly understand the pain it's so so important in both sales and product to be prescriptive right so design a solution you're not going to win a deal unless you can put together a compelling business case especially the bigger the deal gets if you can't talk about the ROI talk about the benefits that the business is going to get good is better than perfect and the important thing there is you want to put you want to build a potential sort of solution and a business case and then you want to put it in front of the prospect and ask for feedback right you want to build the with them the best business cases are built not just by the salesperson but collaboratively with the prospect same sort of thing in product in product your solution is your wireframes your mock ups your sketches you don't don't rush to high fidelity designs right away but once you understand clearly the pain put some ideas out there and be prescriptive of here's some potential solutions and then work with your users as much as possible and user testing to refine that solution to get from good to perfect and the last one here is be thorough make sure you're talking to all the right stakeholders not just the ones who will take your call and in sales it's so easy to spend time with people who you know they're telling you all the right things right oftentimes those are the people who don't have the influence or the authority but they've got the time so they'll spend it with you right so it's so important to understand you know who makes that buying decision can we get some time on their calendar what are their priorities if you're not talking to all the people involved in a decision you're likely not going to win the deal in product it's so so similar except here you need to be talking to all your different types of users so I was guilty of this in the early days I was only having conversations with our power users right and what your power users will tell you is going to be very different from what you're sort of mid to your users will tell you from what you're very infrequent users will tell you right so make sure you're getting you know when you're trying to come up with ideas you're getting a cross-section of perspectives you're not just focused on focusing on getting input from the power users who will take your call because you really need to understand you know a lot of times you don't want to cater to the power users so they're going to use your product regardless you want to cater to the people if you need to drive adoption with you need to drive more stickiness and you need to make sure that you're being thorough and talking to a nice mix of your different users very similar to how you would talk to sales stakeholders so that's it I really hope this helpful would love for for you to connect with me hit me up on Twitter Evan Lewis please add me on LinkedIn send me an email if any of this was interesting if you just want to connect I really hope you enjoy the rest of the conversations of the product bud summit and yeah thanks so much again for listening take care