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hello welcome to criterion's presentation on measuring performance in non-profit organizations i'm steve kuhn chief sales officer with criterion we're a leading publisher of human capital management or hcm software for non-profits joining me is beverly brooks thompson of carter global and beverly please introduce yourself hi steve thank you so much for having me today i'm managing director of carter global we're at international fundraising consulting firm i think we're in 15 countries now we have over 41 consultants worldwide and we work in every vertical of fundraising whether that's education religion sports human services all across the board so delighted to be here with you and excited to get deep into that deep into the work all right well well thank you so much uh really happy to have you with us uh if you'd like to get in touch uh with beverly and carter global there's going to be her contact information at the end of this presentation so that you can quick jot it down or or take a screenshot or whatever you need to do today's conversation is being recorded and you can request a link to the recording after the presentation and we want to invite you to participate in the conversation as well but during our initial part of the conversation please use the chat feature to submit questions that you have and we will answer as many as possible at the end i would also urge you to do that kind of like in the moment because i think it it if you wait to the end you may forget exactly what you were trying to get the point you were trying to get across so it's always a little bit greater value if you quickly jot down the question and shoot it into the chat so here's our agenda uh for today i'm just gonna give you a minute to to just kind of briefly review that before we get started and we're gonna take each one of these four items and dig a little bit deeper into them as we go through okay so this may seem like an obvious question to a lot of folks that are already on this call but beverly can you just share you know your view on what sets non-profits apart from you know private business organizations sure well besides the obvious which is the irs designation between corporations and non-profits um you know they're all different types of non-private organizations but i think that the biggest issue or the biggest differentiator is corporations really are in the business to be in business they uh have a return on investment agreement either with whoever owns the organization or the shareholders that sort of thing now nonprofits are a little bit different um they're really set up by the government as the public trust so what is the change that you are trying to solve in the world is is what we ask nonprofits very frequently and that really goes to the heart of the message what what change do they want to see what problem are they trying to solve and the us government gives us some tax opportunities um to make sure that people can invest in those a little bit different so as opposed to a return on investment i like to say that non-profits are mostly concerned with the return on impact how are they making an impact towards the change that they want to see in the world and you can do that in a variety of ways a lot of those include fundraising and since i usually have the lens of fundraising uh with the work that we do at carter i'll talk a little bit more about that in detail but really the the biggest difference um across the board is that return on investment versus return on impact and that doesn't mean that corporations can't have an impact but we measure those a little bit differently especially in regards to what i would again consider the public trust so uh that public trust sometimes goes back to the people that you serve we hope um sometimes that goes to the donors who invest in the nonprofit organization um for the the change that they want to see and the mission alignment that they value but what is the promise and what is the what is your ability to keep that promise is how i define the nonprofit world okay i should point out here too and maybe you can give a little bit of insight here too you have an hr background um it's a little bit dated but um my my undergraduate degree is in human resource management i have a phd in human resource and leadership development which is not the management side with the organizational development side of the universe and um i feel like i put that degree to use every single day whether it's working for a for-profit corporation working with a board of directors or is working with a non-profit organization um helping them make their people or their processes faster or stronger to serve the world so i do have a guitar background um we're gonna tap into that all right all right so because the next real question i want to get out to you is really is you know let's define metrics those things that you know that are measurable quantitative you know things that you can look at for your people in an organization and especially in a non-profit organization you know as an org for the people how do you define these things how can you identify these things that's a great question i started out my career actually as a recruiter for a regional bank and um when i recruited talent for a bank all the way to running a hospital foundation i've had multiple multiple uh iterations in my career so i'm speaking as a recruiter recruiting for organizations for other management positions for other people to manage as well as running my own organization and and i would even say at carter is we work with organizations that are strategically trying to identify either the ceos or executive directors of the nonprofit organizations to the people who are doing the boots on the ground work of serving those organizations to fundraising i don't think it's much different i think when you hire people you want to make sure first and foremost that people are mission aligned with you and values aligned i think that is exponentially um more important and has a much greater force in nonprofits because if someone is not mission aligned and doesn't want to serve the people that you're serving and or help solve the problem that you're trying to solve they're probably not going to be a great fit regardless of how talented they are so if someone's not mission aligned and they're a social worker um that's going to be a problem if you're working with your people if somebody is not mission aligned and and they are on your fundraising or development team um working every day towards mentors and goals is not going to be as exciting um unless you really believe in the cause and and the work that you're doing every day so i i tell people frequently when they say what's the difference between somebody who is in a corporation versus a non-profit doing doing the work and it's really what motivates that person generally folks and non-profits are very very goal-oriented people they like metrics i say pretty frequently in my own work i like to get get a pluses i just want to know um how to get those a pluses so um what that typically looks like is what it looks like in a major corporation as well what are the expectations of my position how am i going to be successful how am i going to be rewarded for that success and how am i going to be measured now i'm going to put a fundraising lens on this since uh we're talking nonprofits i'm gonna presume that a lot of people on the call are hiring folks that um are part of the mission advancement of the organization and when i say that i mean that they are part of the fundraising team they're part of the development team they're part of the folks that are going out and asking others to invest in the organization and i would say you know we can put metrics around those people that aren't necessarily dollars raised all the dollars raised is very important for a fundraiser and that's part of the a pluses that we like is if i need to raise a million dollars in my uh yearly matrix that's great um for ethical reasons we typically don't put bonuses around those things but i want to know what those numbers are and i want to know how to get there how do you typically get there and how do you measure that well i believe if you do the work then the money will come it won't always come on your timeline it's not like sales but the process in many ways is very similar how many visits are you having did you visit with identified people did you then visit with donors who are qualified you're not just visiting the visit for example are you cultivating those folks in meaningful tactical ways are you making asks of those folks are you putting proposals on the table so number of proposals uh given in a in a year can be one of the men's rights and how are you stewarding those owners and fundraising in the pipeline uh of the donor continuum if you will from identification to gifts made and stewardship the reality is we don't want to be transactional we want to be in a relationship with folks for a very long period of time so where are they the donor in that stage how do we measure those stages how many people in that pipeline do we have in particular stages and are we getting them from one stage to the next not just on the organizational timeline but on the donor's timeline and to know what a donor's timeline is we have to be in relationship with them so visit visit visit um i frequently have conversations um with boards and boards of directors and they always want to wrap bonuses around money if if the money doesn't come in then um we want to you know we want to pay somebody a bonus or we we don't want to pay them until you know they hit certain markers and metrics if you if you do the work and you put put the benchmarks around those metrics and around those um stages and visits then the money will come and sometimes it comes bigger than you expected but if if you measure the visit some years are really great and some years might be a little bit lower or higher because somebody surprises you but again just like anything else mission alignment set the goals measure those goals and watch watch for success um so folks that are in non-profit sometimes getting that bad rap see if i find people think oh gosh they're not as motivated that is absolutely not my experience the most motivated people i've ever met and the most heart aligned people i've ever met work at non-profit organizations and they are they are just as motivated as those investment bankers they're just not necessarily motivated by money they are motivated by wins just like um just like in corporate america so i hope that answers your question is that your experience it does and i i i'll have to take exception though because it does sound in a lot of cases like sales uh you know when you're talking about fundraising and keeping alignment with your goals and and building relationships it certainly is the same things we strive for as a sales organization as well but uh i get the point yeah the process is very similar it's just um people are investing in organizations because they're mission aligned not because they get something in return um the return is much more altruistic if you will from a donor perspective i i would suggest that if you are very mission aligned and you work really hard to stay in relationship with people um those relationships stay for a long period of time and it's not much different than folks that are in high volume sales organizations and or i would suggest business to business relationship organizations sure sure so so you you've got these you know you've got talent in your organization and you know and it seems like in a lot of organizations uh private or not you know in nonprofit or private practice is that you know so many times your top performer you know is like ah they must be the right manager or you know that how do you help people figure that conundrum out that your best coach is not necessarily your best player oh that's a great question you know um i spent a lot of time uh growing up my father was in in professional sports so on baseball fields and you know i i always go back to baseball analogies it's very rare that you have somebody that can run really fast that can hit really hard and can feel the ball generally you're good at two out of three well i don't think that's much different um in the world of work you have very frequently and we find this a lot in fundraising and we find this a lot in just across across just about any field somebody who's really really great at the work as hitting their metrics and knocking down goals might be really great at that particular role but managing people is not really their forte in fact one of the best bosses i ever had said my job is to give you all the tools to do your job eliminate any obstacles and then get out of your way really get out of your way and that was just such a gift as a manager especially in professions where they've got highly talented highly motivated people um give them the tools that they need for their job eliminate their obstacles and let them do their work now i had lunch with her recently and i asked her i said what are you doing now that you're retired and she said i can tell you what i'm not doing i'm not managing people and this is one of the best bosses i ever had and she was brilliant at managing people but managing people is actually a really really unique skill set making sure that people are motivated making sure that um not just the motivators for the organization but for that individual person are in place and really managers understanding how to cultivate and grow talent is really important and that's a very different skill set we um and again i'm going to put a fundraising lens on this um very frequently we're asked why somebody who's a really really great annual giving person um they're really good at making the calls having the conversations um isn't really performing say over here in major gifts well one is very transactional one is very relationship based you have to understand the skill set and so are we motivating and growing people within their particular skill set um in a way that makes a difference now very frequently those same people if they're really great at their job they get put in charge of people and you know the same things that motivate them to be highly successful is fundraisers being out of office having conversations with people being in a relationship made motivated by dollars when you're managing a group of people who are doing that your job is to manage those people you are not out there having relationships talking about the organization all day every day inspiring donors it's a very different skill set so um be watchful be careful be understanding and when people are excellent within an organization in their skill set whether it's that annual fund director for example do you have metrics and growth plans in place for them to stay where they are and feel like they're growing wide i.e they're getting um more professional development they're going in their skill set and to work to grow up in an organization in a way that makes sense for them and the organization so not everybody needs to grow up into management can they grow up into being senior and the best at what they do and maybe training some other people but not managing other people very frequently we find when you meet people your numbers go down that doesn't mean they're good teachers that doesn't mean that they're good motivators that means they're really great at doing it in this role can you expand that role and motivate them and grow them up in ways and reward them financially and or with other um opportunities that are meaningful for them long long answer short question not a problem i'm a great example of that i love consulting i have all of the authority and none of the responsibility i don't love managing people so when we put teams together we put teams together where i'm a motivator i'm a leader i get in front of folks but there's somebody else you're in the action plan managing the team um so that's not so different when you're in in different organizations if you don't love managing people in this role you're probably not going to love managing people in that role thank you thank you now so let's take the next step in this scenario so you you have a gap all right you need to bring somebody in okay so first of all to kind of take it maybe in a two-part question here is really how do you go out and find these people and then once you've made that offer they come on board how do you keep them there so those are two very different questions so how do you recruit top talent um i right this second that is the that's the golden ticket answer isn't it i believe that recruiting top talent still um goes to those traditional based places that professional organizations are the number one way to find and recruit talent so for example my personal professional organizations are the association of fundraising professionals and cfre one is a certifying organization and the other is a professional development organization if i am going to post folks uh post a position to get somebody who looks walks talks with the certifications that i need and or um going through the ranks of professional development i'm gonna go to those two organizations um because they've figured it out and the other reason i'm gonna go to those is because i've got to eliminate the noise i've got to get through the hundreds of thousands of people looking and go to the folks who are investing in their professional development that are participating in professional organizations in ways that are meaningful to them now across the board regardless i have not ever found this to be untrue so if you're looking for an hr person you're going to go to the society of human resource management of the association of training development period they've done the certifications they're doing the professional development that is not different in engineering that is not different if you are in the museum space that is not different if you are a chemical uh a biochemist those professional associations the other thing that i think from a recruitment perspective is extremely important is uh linkedin i'm i'm not a huge fan of you know some of the other great big recruiting organizations although i'm sure they're great but it produces more noise but linkedin is a great way to post positions and get networks and get highly targeted in specific in particular regions i'm also a big fan of chambers of commerce chambers of commerce and departments of economic development within particular states do a terrific job of posting positions and right this second um you know organizations that are over a certain size corporations and nonprofits for that matter are posting positions with their offices uh workforce development and offices of economic development because of the situation that we find ourselves in post-pandemic so if somebody is finding themselves unemployed or they're re-being um career changing those are fantastic places to post and by law many of those organizations have to post positions there so folks are looking there it would be the hoove organization it's or for-profit to person and those um the other reason i like linkedin is the ask your networks to share and generally people are connected to people that they have worked with and for that do the work and are mission aligned with the work that they do so that that's my long answer on uh recruitment it's uh nothing magical i i will tell you that i do have um two millennials and two generations z uh folks in my family that are are currently going into the job market so they are highly highly motivated young professionals that are coming out of the workforce and it's been fascinating to watch how they are looking at the universe and where they are looking old school career services offices and universities for both undergraduates and graduates and their alumni are still terrific places to look um and terrific places to post because we go back to what we know now retaining talent i'm going to take a sip of water because that's a whole different ball games don't you think that's fine because it you know i got to thinking about this and we've got another slide coming up and it's and it's part of that recruiting process too um but it's the articulation of you know the the organization how do you get that value across to people who are looking but then also the people who are there that may have lost sight of what the vision is right so absolutely and steve i i believe this to be true anecdotally um i've seen research on it i can't cite any and as an academic i'm curious what your thoughts are on this but um just like we look at being in relationship with folks in the uh nonprofit world and in the fundraising business i feel as if anecdotally it is still true that the number one reason that people leave an organization is because of the person they report to not necessarily that they're not mission aligned with the organization but they they generally cite reasons and i i always say if you can't grow up are like if somebody is motivated to grow up in an organization and not everybody by the way is motivated to grow up in an organization right that career path they may be perfectly happy where they are and that's awesome are we meeting them where they are by growing them wide are we giving them professional development opportunities are they still mission aligned with the organization are we checking in with them both personally and professionally about what their personal goals are and what they would like to see next in the organization when they offer feedback are we listening to that feedback are we giving responses to that feedback um so how are our how are our managers doing and stewarding that mission and vision for the organization and are we keeping the promise of what we said we were going to do when we hired these folks um i i talk to people all the time and particularly in nonprofit organizations and bigger organizations that use services like yours do a whole lot better job of this but it's not unusual to talk to even executive directors and ceos of organizations who haven't had a review in years they haven't had a check-in with either the board of directors because the ceos or executive directors are reporting to the board in years so from a non-private perspective starting at the very top is the board evaluating themselves do they have a board matrix are they is the board mission aligned with what they what they uh who they are as a person and what they want to do and are they evaluating themselves as a board and are they are they really taking seriously the professional development of either that executive director president ceo whatever that top level title is because that is their role to uh make sure that they manage only that person but are they giving that person professional development are they giving them feedback on how they are doing are they putting metrics in place and goals in place and not just strategic planning but executive compensation do you have an executive compensation policy in your organization and are you following that have you looked at your bylaws lately that trickles all the way down so what is our senior level management doing how are they doing and evaluating their people are they doing check-ins um i'm a firm huge believer and this absolutely goes back to my hr days if somebody is not performing in your organization and you have gotten to the point where you need to release them and they are surprised shame on you you have not done your job as an organization or as a manager providing proper feedback setting mission values goals making sure that that is in a line on a yearly basis making sure that they have the tools that they need to do their job and if they don't um that you're offering alternatives if possible so people will stick with an organization particularly mission aligned organizations if they feel as if they're heard if they feel as if they have the opportunity to not just grow tall growing tall if they want to being promoted and having a career path knowing what that trajectory is but also growing why are you getting them their certifications if you have the opportunity for um education is that there are you able to give them some of those benefits of travel or um you know the wellness things all of all of those are important but are they important to the people that work with you and for you and and do you know it's very important for managers to check information oh okay well great hey i was remiss i'm too too much engaged in this and uh you know i just was like going like oh this is what we should have been talking on this slide right here and so uh so but uh i think you know to kind of to to to to push back obviously it's you know it's very important that leadership isn't you know involved in building that effective team from the board down um and then making sure that that message you know that this is our goal this is our our our mantra you know this is what we do why we do it is shared with everyone on a consistent basis so that people are always connecting with you know what the organization does so and did you survive the person that you hired and asked them what was the decision maker what was important to them in that decision making and are you checking with them year after year to see how your how you're doing on that value proposition that you offered upon their hire so so part of this you know you have your mission but you know some of this mission is is all around you know being self-supportive and being funded and and so forth so there is money involved but how do you you know how do you evaluate you know that nonprofits impact you know without that dollar stigma if you will attached to it ah well you know how you evaluate a non-profit is probably not much different than how you evaluate a for-profit organization however we don't necessarily do it and just how how much money came in the door and what did our shareholders did instead of that return on investment what is a return on impact and we say that a lot but i do think it goes to um evaluating across from the top down and it goes to is the board aligned with the mission vision strategic direction are you recruiting board members that really have a heart for your mission first and then are they hitting all of those other demographics that you potentially need to do the work that you do is your leadership team being evaluated and are they looking at mission alignment and i think that actually does go towards what we're talking about here with measuring the nonprofit now those are things that perhaps you might not ever see in any report however if the leadership is not mission aligned you can be certain that sooner or later that organization is going to come off the rails no matter how much money that they're they're raising how much impact um they're having that organization is going to come out of alignment in some way shape or form if that leadership is not aligned with the heart of the mission now that being said there are amazing organizations like candid and guide star in the foundation center who do a really good job of putting certifications and badges and things like that to see how an organization is doing but i do think um the media has portrayed nonprofits in a really negative way with a very singular measure and that singular measure that we hear a lot that i want to dispel the rumor and i'm probably preaching to the choir given who's on the on the call here but here's your shout out is you know how much money did we raise versus how much money meant actually to what we're saying that we're doing and um we hear a lot about overhead projections and things like that well you know working for example with the um organization that's in human services that um let's say they're raising five million dollars a year in their overhead and i'm an air quote overhead is you know 4.8 million dollars and they're serving children with special needs well the overhead is physical therapist an occupational therapist an aba specialist and folks who are doing the work to serve and get provide services to children with special needs so the measure of how much money gets paid in overhead to an organization is really dependent on the organization so um a blank rubber stamp on you know what's the overhead of an organization let's look at their 990 how much money did they raise and how much money went to salaries for example is a terrible measure if you're in the medical space or if you're in a space with huge human capital like education with where the brain trusts of your teachers and professors is where the money is so dollars raised versus um overhead is a terrible metrics what are they doing so what i'd really like to see is you know how many kids had an occupational therapy appointment and how many kids who come from underserved populations you wouldn't have the ability to pay for that got served by your organization for example so it goes down to what is that mission of your organization and literally what are you telling in your bylaws your articles of incorporation and bylaws about the work that you do what is the public trust of the problem that you're trying to solve and what are the numbers around the problem that you're trying to solve so for example i used to work for a hospital foundation and we raised money and gave it to the hospital in order for them to do the work well how many cancer patients got a free mammogram of women who couldn't afford it how many sexual assault victims were able to be provided um clothes and had screenings and therapy that they needed how many babies in the nicu were able to get human dinner breast milk and had a life projection that was um better because of the work that we did how many dot dot dot how many people did you serve based on the mission division values and what we call in nonprofits of the case for support what is um the problem that you're trying to solve that private philanthropy could help you and solve um in a much more meaningful way put numbers around those um what are you doing what is the actual work that you're doing and uh what is the impact and the return on that i want to hear donor stories i want to hear um stories from the populations that you serve and i want to hear from that physical therapist doing the work and the highlight moment that they had so you can you can tell stories in a hundred different ways and it's not just about the money it's about what that money does to serve the people that that you're trying to serve and the public trust that you're entrusted with as a nonprofit very good very good and i think that kind of leads into to this last component here is since you you you've got your background and experience working you know in the nonprofits you know what are some of the really those cultures i know you mentioned a couple organizations earlier on and i i kind of lost i'm sorry i didn't make a note but um that they do badges and they do recognitions and things like that what are some of those things that you found that have maybe there are maybe minor things but they make a big impact to the people that's a great question you know one of the themes particularly in smaller and mid-level non-profits that we find is that particularly in fundraising so again i'm gonna put the the lens over on the fundraising piece but um just like human resource management 30 years ago when i gosh i said that about 30 years ago when i was coming out of college they used to call it personnel and that they were just wrapping their hands around they the the public was just wrapping their hands around gosh this is an actual profession this is a profession that you can be a specialist in whether that's compensation or whether that's um payroll or whether that's uh employee engagement you know all the different facets and we thought it was a fantastic idea to start putting professional development certifications about that and now uh phr and sbhr are some of the most recognized credentials in the country well that's not much different in nonprofit organizations so for example i am a cfre that is a certified fundraising executive and with all due respect it does sometimes fundraising sound like sales it is not sales so there's just like everybody back in the day said ah he can be he can be in personnel you know let's put the boss's kid over here in personnel somebody's got to do it this week um we as a profession and the world of nonprofits have really done a tremendous amount of due diligence to make sure that um people are highly skilled and professional and in there within their chosen field so the association of fundraising professionals um you have the council of the accounts council for advancement in education which is case you've got a ahp um all of those organizations do professional development and they have certifications around the particular area so i would say if you're hiring somebody in a non-profit organization you're hiring uh somebody for example to be a cfo and to do uh cost accounting you probably are gonna go with somebody who has credentials in that field you're absolutely going to go hire the cpa if you're hiring somebody in hr you're absolutely going to look first for the person with the phr or the sphr if you're hiring a social worker same credentialing well it's not any different in the nonprofit space the cfre is a highly valued and important credential in our field and it says that we are experts in these particular areas now you can be a specialist in a particular area but i'm hiring people that are credentialed in the work that they do again back to those professional organizations i think are really important so high performing nonprofits don't forget the way i'm gonna say this dumb down their stuffing they don't say gosh um well this person has this so we'll just put them over here in fundraising we find very frequently that people think marketing is fundraising or they think communications is fundraising and although they are adjacent and although they are important they are very different in many cases skill sets so are you hiring people that are credentialed to do the work in the work that you need them to do so that being said absolutely lots of career changers in any one of those fields and do people have again that mission for the organization do they have transferable skills and or are they willing to get credentialed and move towards that so if you are hiring somebody say for example and by the way um school teachers make amazing um degree transfers excuse me um career transfers it over into fundraising we find um if somebody is transferring their their degree why because you know they know how to write a plan they know how to work a plan they know how to adjust the plan based on who they're sitting in front of so i'm not saying don't hire a career changer what i am saying is if you hire a career changer put the credential of the person that you would have hired in front of them and say i am willing to invest to make sure that you have this professional development in these areas and here are some of the professional development organizations that i would suggest you get some of that training in front of so um i i believe that the work that we do is in strengthening people strengthening processes strengthening organizations um and that really starts from the top down and from the inside out so in the top down is the board being mission aligned the board setting that um that tone and holding people accountable to that tone starting with the ceo and then the ceo and our executive director doing that with the management team giving people the tools to do their job professional development is a big piece of that and letting them understand what those metrics are um around what that professional development should look like and what that end goal should be whether it's a person in hr whether it's a cpa whether it's somebody um in that accounting team whether it's the social worker doing the work front line whether it's fundraiser make sure that they understand what those um those standards are and invest in them give them the tools to do their job and then get out of their way remove their obstacles oh well thank you so much i appreciate all the information and we do have some questions so um i'm gonna go ahead and i think i'm supposed to open these up i'm not sure i forgot the process here but we'll go ahead and and see if we can get to these questions and um let's just see here um just a couple things oh here's a question i i see one can i just read it out see oh absolutely go right ahead how do you recommend i use software to track non-numeric performance well in fund-raising specifically we very frequently track the stages for example of the general continuum so um how many visits how many calls how many emails how many trips that sort of how many proposals how many grants written those types of things are written overlaid around the dinner continuum so how many prospects do you have in donor prospects you have that are identified versus qualified versus being cultivated versus those with asks or proposals on the table versus those in the stewardship phase so how are your fundraisers doing around those particular metrics now that looks a little bit different in different areas of an organization so if i'm a hr a recruiting person for a non-profit i would i would suggest that you would do the same with the stages that are important there um if you're in the accounting team how are folks doing hitting the benchmarks that are naturally occurring within a calendar so for example um did we get our financial reports done in time for the board check did we um did we hit that particular calendar goal did we get the 990 set did we do an audit so you can you can put attributes into software to make sure that those benchmarks and goals are are being met and i know c would be more than happy to tell you exactly how you can do that at criterion which is just an incredible system to use thank you beverly so um do we have other questions um and let me just pop this up here um i think before we before there's other questions let me just flip this over so you have beverly's contact information as well as a carter global and you can go out and either research uh the organization or send beverly an email and certainly i'm sure she'll respond and let you know how they might be able to assist you not only in fundraising but other aspects of your nonprofit absolutely we we really specialize in fundraising we do a lot in governance just like uh you have corporate governance we have non-profit governance we do a whole lot of that work and that strategic visioning that we talked about a lot of work around the board we the one thing that we don't do is searches in the nonprofit space however we work with a whole lot of firms that do them and help them shape what those job descriptions and what those values metrics need to be okay well certainly if you think of something else why you know after we disconnect from this presentation feel free to either you know send me an a note or send beverly a note if you want some more information on either criterion or on carter global so uh beverly thanks again for your time we it's a pleasure to be with you it's uh wonderful to exchange the information and oh just wait just a second uh we might have something else coming uh up and uh just bear with me so how has coved impacted the way we're measuring performance is there anything great question yeah there's more to it is there anything i should know for the rest of the year as we transition to a new way of work so one of the big things that we're seeing in nonprofits a couple of things particularly the way in which we engage donors this the way in which nonprofit organizations are working with their donor population so what we have found to be true is that relationship continues even if the the vehicle or the venue of relationship changes and so what that means is there's a whole lot of people that don't want to visit in person um and that's okay so if you're in a relationship with somebody whether it's a friend or whether it's a colleague or whether it's a a child or that sort of thing you ask them what would be the best way to work with you what would be the best way to engage with you um and people will tell you if you have some a direct question so um rather than face-to-face visits in person at a home or an office or in a coffee shop and we're in full believe now that you can do that in this venue we're seeing a lot of um donor visits face-to-face we're seeing a lot of board meetings that are um still being conducted virtually we're also seeing a whole lot of hunger for people to be back in person uh and those things and engagement opportunities but doing that in really safe ways and or blended environments so if you can't be in person can do that in a in a blended way and our folks running this call do that all all day every day and do a great job of doing that um the other the other thing that we're seeing pretty serious changes in is events so people those big scale galas and events that nonprofits have done historically we're not seeing a lot of um events coming back in full scale and part of that is people just got really used to being home and having their circles tighter we also are finding that um that mission alignment that we have always talked about is proven to be true people aren't just going to an event to go to an event because their buddy invited them to go um if they're not if it is not in a donor's top one or two philanthropic priorities um and they're not really mission aligned and have a significant heart for the mission they're not going so i think that is a real important piece and a change that we're seeing so we've been preaching mission and vision of values alignment for years at carter and um it's proven to be true so if you're in relationship with those folks that not just that you work with from a donor perspective but those that you're in relationship work with because of the work that you do meet them where they are and that includes your employees making sure that um you're setting up spaces that are safe and inclusive so excellent we got one more question and then we'll let you go um how do entry-level or mid-career individuals influence leadership to take reviews or check-ins with their staff more seriously essentially how do i influence them without holding that power you know to easily do so i've had a lot of leadership members go on go an entire year without ever meeting new hires and a relatively small organization because they didn't prioritize it um i would suggest as mid level managers need some teeth in their metrics so do they have benchmarks that um flag their manager if they don't meet with somebody within six six weeks for example if they don't do a um why why were you hired and how can i best support you in your job conversation um is are there teeth in that for example am i going to get a negative performance review if i don't miss those benchmarks are there teeth around how many evaluations that you have um completed and are you compensated based on that do you get um do you get your evaluations you get promoted do you get um that that merit-based increase yes or no and um it should be reflected in your evaluation manager's job is to manage so it should be a core um value in the feedback that that is represented um and those should be meaningful engagements with um not just um performance metrics but measurable outcomes well and i think that goes back to your original conversation or your comments around you know the board has to be aligned with the executive director who has to be aligned with middle management who has to be aligned and and without and i'm a huge again believer in boards having their own board evaluation and individual board member evaluations are are they um are they themselves signing up and understanding what they're signing up for as they take physical mobile responsibility for this non-profit and are they holding themselves accountable are they then turning around and doing the same thing for this ceo and not from a punitive perspective but to make sure that all the wheels are turning in the right direction so that you can have the impact on the world that you want to have and that the public has put their trust in well thank you i'm going to go back one more slide here i think i can if i can i will do it but um there we go just so you have your contact information up and i'll leave it there for now uh until we sign off but again thank you beverly we appreciate your time and also your information thank you what a pleasure to be with you and thank you all for your questions today