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Receipt design for Quality Assurance

hello everybody and welcome to this month's construction contract administration practice session before we get started with today's topic which is a continuation of our series that we've been doing for the better part of 2017 I just wanted to remind everyone a couple housekeeping issues so today's session will be recorded and posted to that channel at youtube.com forward slash CSI construction and check for that recording probably later on this week additionally if you've missed any other this of the I guess the previous seven or eight in this series those have all been posted and are available to view on the website as well with that again reminder everybody feel free to answer your questions and comments directly into that question box and I'll hand it over to Doug and Jim to get started with today's topic so Doug knew Jim over to you I am tickled to have Doug Freeman on the call with us to talk about quality control and quality assurance and wanted to give Doug a minute to shout out to everybody hello hello to everyone good to be back on the call as I have been busy at work and haven't been able to participate when I'm glad to have the opportunity to be back again it's always better when one does in the pilots chair I'll tell you that we're going to talk about quality assurance and quality control today and Matthew you can go to the next slide one of the things that I use in this series of conversations is to just get people to stop and think for a second the last time you went clothes shopping and you put on a pair of new pants and stuck your hand in the pocket what did you find well you found a little sliver of paper that said inspected by number six I don't know who number six is this is a busy human being all over the earth inspecting clothes and my point in bringing that up is you think about the exposure of company manufacturing clothing has or a pair of pants or a shirt blouse or a jacket and think about the quality control and quality assurance procedures that they have in place for just that one pair of pants yet many of you have worked in large engineering large construction large architectural firms or four big owners and find that your firm your office does not have a process for quality assurance and control and think about the exposure difference for an architectural firm and what might occur versus that simple pair of trousers so let's go to the next slide Matthew and Doug I'll say a few things to introduce this slide and then I'll hush and they give you a chance to jump in here but we're we're talking about assurance and control well what what are these things and how do we differentiate quality assurance in a firm is a program of procedures to discover the deficiencies or defects that may exist and that can occur before or that can occur during the execution of the work so there are tools to provide quality assurance like submittals certifications any kind of actions that are assuring that products are proper and that the services are being provided as they should be where quality control are procedures for evaluating completed activities or elements of the work itself overall conformance quality control can include testing and inspections and it is potentially the finding and correcting of issues unsatisfactory work or performance that has occurred we often think of Quality Assurance as something that the owner and the consultant do with early in the project and during construction where the control may be more kind tractor centered and so the contractor is managing the control process the owner is monitoring the assurance process or the owners consulted but it's not it's not totally defined in that in that way and Doug and Matthew and I were just talking about that before we got on the call because one of our participants sent in a question and an item for us to discuss about this very item of quality assurance and quality controls so as we go through the slides I hope that some of that will become more clear as we look at them but Doug I'll hush for a second and let you jump in often times I hear Quality Assurance and quality control being used interchangeably I really don't get to a particular amount the terminology I think the end result or the goal is what should be the main focus I'm hearing about a bunch of static I don't know this meter or someone else I'm not thinking it up okay well I'll keep going in so again I think the is the end result that is the key and I don't get too hung up on the terminology of someone saying it's assurance versus control I don't know that that really matters that much when what you're trying to do is to get a good quality product in the end one way of thinking of the two different terms and and something that I've used in the past as the Quality Assurance is a way of preventing mistakes and quality control is a way of catching mistakes so I don't know if that helps anybody in their understanding of the difference between the two Matthew doesn't say that to say that one more time Matthew you can go to the next slide but Douglas will you say that one more time control is the caching quality assurance is a way of preventing mistakes and quality control is a way of catching mistakes so are you I talking about testing being something that's done during quality control if you have poured concrete or spray fireproofing and you go back and you're doing a test that's the way of catching something that's already been done and finding out you've got an issue and dealing with it Quality Assurance is the way of preventing mistakes and construction let's say that you give us the middle and you're reviewing us the middle you're looking at something before it's in place so you're trying to catch or you're trying to prevent the mistake before it's actually been put in place does that make sense makes great sense to me and is sort of what is spelled out here on this next slide and and and also is an example of maybe how these are used interchangeably so often but let's perhaps Matthew s stop right there and see if there are any hands raised for any questions at this point so far we're quiet except for Warren pointing out my typos on the the title of the last slide good job nice catch there well I I don't want to share because I didn't ask before we started about the communication earlier before we got started today but perhaps that participant will raise his hand and have a chance to go into some conversation about his perspective on control and assuring because I think it's really important to hear and I thought it was really good comment so that we got before we got started but while we're doing that math you go ahead to the next slide and I hope that those of you that have participated with me don't find this too corny but I just continue to to be focused on examples of where there are quality control hole or quality assurance programs out there and the magnitude of the exposure of the magnitude of the costs yes sure there are maybe hundreds of thousands of pairs of these shoes but you see right there on the box that they've checked it in various phases of manufacture and and there it is quality control passed these and they're in good shape to sell so I just I can't say enough about finding a program that fits in your organization in your practice and your company on your sites where you're working and get that program in place and as Doug has often said in the past when you find that right program and you do implement it then you need to be sure that you follow it and maybe we want to add more in detail about that but this is just a reminder slide of how simple a program can be and how pervasive they are in other industries well if you if you have identified a program or a system did you say that you're going to use in your office and you've got that documented and then you don't follow it I'll certainly wouldn't want to have to be the one that goes in front of the jury to try to explain why we didn't follow our own program so as Jim just mentioned if you have one make sure you follow it on every project because you don't want to be the one who has to sit in that witness box and get grilled by that attorney on the other side and you haven't done what you have committed said you were going to do within your own office to mxy we actually have a couple of comments and questions that have popped in here quick so we have a comment of coming here from dean board saying to me QC is often QA for the next step another key for me it's observed versus inspect especially as it affects continual cont contractual obligations and liability issues and then we have a question here from luffy asking do QA and QC overlap at some cases well i'll jump in with something quick and say yes i think so i think that for example once work moves into the field there are possibilities of you finding control things that are pointed out as a designer and engineer that are pointed out to the construction community maybe not your obligation or requirement for assurance but certainly through communication of a jobsite observation you might share that information as has been pointed out in in previous calls you know we're on the design side not responsible for means and methods and quality control is very much connected to means and methods so I think that's one of those places where it's fuzzy and and there isn't a clear start and stop that they do bleed over Doug Lowy thing I agree I think they lean over again I don't get too hung up on the terms garlic control versus Quality Assurance I think the end objective is what everyone should be focused on and whether I'm doing quality control or doing Quality Assurance as long as I'm doing what I need to do to make sure that we're going to end up with a quality project that's how focused but I do think they make an overlap the the middle example I think is a example of where they kind of overlap when you review in this the middle you're checking to make sure it complies with the documents that's what procedure to help prevent mistakes before they happen in the field but it's also a way of catching something that someone may have mistaken or made a mistake on when they were submitting or putting this the middle together so I think there's overlap between the two and that's a good point Matthew as you go to the next slide and check for questions I'll just say what you know both of those start with quality and I think that's what Doug is saying that that that that's what your focus is and it's a good go ahead man cause it's gonna follow we had a similar line of question that I think we're starting to talk about just wanted to clarify and get it out there I'm saying can Quality Assurance occur during physical construction or is this activity always answered quality control at that point I think it occurs during construction as well I think just because it's being done by the contractor Jim has mentioned we've had a brief conversation before we got on the call I don't think that Quality Assurance is done just by the designer and quite a controller system by the contractor I think we both do quantity control and quality assurance and there are procedures that contractors have in place when they're building a building to make sure or to help them improve any mistakes being made you can be having a second set of eyes review the formwork they have a carpenter grout and he does homework and have the project superintendent he goes behind him and he looks at the formwork to make sure it's at compliance that's the Quality Assurance process is done during construction that's right in it so if we Matthew you interrupt me as I look ahead here at this slide but it also it quality whether we're talking about the assurance or the control is affected by the particular participants that are involved with the project so again we Doug and I focus on predominantly design-bid-build as a basis for these webinars and in in that process you don't get to pick who your team members are so being aware that there is an effect on this depending on the individual participants is something that is a part of what I think you have to consider while you're on the job on the site or within the portion of the project that is the submittals coming through your hands these items are really defined in Division one in the general requirements as far as how we are associated with quality but you know our our role as designers as engineers and architects is to verify that the the required quality of the work is what the owner is receiving and that should we see any deviation or departure from that that we inform the owner and that we are also there to answer questions about what the intent was that should be clear in the documents but may be requested by the contractor from start to finish what was the intent here and and it's also affected by the amount of time that we are involved on the site in the construction administration phase so there are projects and clients that perhaps don't have the designer as involved as others and then of course there are those cases where there is someone selected to be there full time through some sort of enhanced service where there may be you may be represented on the job site every day during construction so participants can also affect the program that you put in place for your phone and and this list continues on the next slide and you can go there Matthew and then let me pause and see if there any questions so far or Doug if you want to add anything there nothing to add here but please the audience have any yeah we we had two Commons / questions come in here one from as a specifier isn't QC relying upon information from manufacturers to be clear concise complete and correct so I'll stop with that question first well rated as a specifier isn't QC relying upon information from the manufacturers to be clear concise complete and correct I wanted to jump in Doug and say first I think that much of what we do relies on the men factors and I certainly I want to let Doug address that but I would just like to share a really brief story of an engineer that I worked with on a project who I guess this is one of those chapters that isn't in the practice guide called trust your gut he was working in an area that was a high wind zone and just didn't feel like the information provided in the manufacturers printed material and I'll say that I bet you 90% of the people on this call would recognize the name of the product if I said it he just didn't trust it he completely redid their calculations and found that they were wrong and that there was a part of their requirements that were under estimated contacted the manufacturer went through the due diligence process of describing what he had done and what they had done and in fact they changed their data for the the all of the information they put out after that project so I've never heard of that before I've never thought about going through the manufacturers data but he just didn't feel like it was right and he had no other he had no other thing to quote except it just it just didn't feel right so but about - and let you jump in there well we do rely on the information that we get from manufacturers as well as the information we get from other sources but I think as Jim's example that he just gave I think that you do have to go by your gut a lot your gut feel your experience things that you've learned over the course of your career so I don't think it's just a complaint get you get something from when there's a manufacturer or an engineer or whoever and you just trust always finally trust that it's going to be correct because people do make that date it was a quick comment here from John regarding her story saying hopefully he sent them an invoice and was paid for his time I love the way you think John that's right I don't think he did but you should have you're right and then we had another follow-up question asking isn't an effective qa/qc the ability of the AE to disallow subcontractor with a poor record of performance that's an excellent question and I would think that is that is a part of this Quality Assurance quality control quality management process a documents do in the general conditions permit the designer or the owner to object to some contractors and if as contractor is proposed that has a bad track record for not doing good work then I think that if the designer or the owner were to object and say no you can't use them that is a part of that whole quality process that quality management system really is and there may be examples that a piece of the project is so important that owners might designate which is a whole different kind of bidding process but they may have requirements for certain subs or require the contractors to list those subs in an effort to not have to go through that but it's a great point in and often we say they have to have this kind of experience and they have to have done these kinds of jobs or at least this scale or scope of project and they've got to document that and prove it and that comes in as Doug was describing in a submitted so it does seem to me - it would be a part of that process any others Matthew oh this is succumbing to come in here and said usually the owners decision though right depending on the type of projects and the type of delivery methods is certainly can be but you know this continuing how individual participants may affect the quality the general contractor and the people that they assigned to the site whether that be project managers foremen superintendents whoever assistant superintendents and assistant project managers their course affecting quality by becoming assured of what is not assured aware of the site what what particular components of the site and how work is connected to those components their supervising everything so they are performing quality control in all parts and all phases of all activities of the construction of course as we Justin talk about the manufacturers and suppliers affect the quality by the initial product that they send from the source and also through their preparation of documents and what the submittal process reveals as you go through it and if the contractor goes through it and then there are the testing agencies that are there verifying compliance through particular inspections like spray on fire proofing etc works they are enforcing a code and as well as our specified requirements within the contract documents so the the summation about this is there are participants involved in they too are a part of our team on a project and part of the team that we should be aware of and what their abilities and what their facts will be on quality so Matthew let's go to the next slide wall hug ads anything or you have any questions no other questions at this time okay well so in reference particularly to the practice guide on page 136 there is an explanation a list of items of examples of what what might mean quality assurance and as Doug pointed out some of these words relate right back to what he said where you're verifying site conditions reviewing documents correlating solutions to certain contract requirements scheduling which would be the contractor's responsibility for implementation of the construction itself but maybe the architecture engineer's responsibility for processing submittals and paperwork within the office assurance measures are meeting to resolve conflicting matters perhaps submitting evidence of quality products where something may not be right within the site itself or what was installed in obtaining the manufacturer certifications in perhaps the closeout phase of the project so here is a reference to what we sort of started talking about in the very beginning where the designer may do quality assurance and design phase the general contractor and the planning scheduling and the meeting of standard space there is an example of the separation of design versus construction and designer versus contractor and then yet the designer performs quality control in the construction phase as well as Doug pointed out and as we began the conversation looking at the completed work and certainly in the rejection of work that's not in compliance as is a part of the service that we provide in the CFA's now we can go right to the next slide and it'll be a slide of quality control and perhaps we want to do that and then Doug I'll be quiet and maybe we can flip back and forth between these Matthew and catch any questions or raise hands all at once and in the quality control processes on the next page in the practice guide and examples with comparing items to acceptable standards being sure the work is within a range of Tolerance and monitoring the contract requirements and whether they've been met anything that is instantiating those requirements monitoring that and that would include the testing and inspecting and that would be generally what the general contractors role in quality control would be testing agencies are also a part of that and you know their inspection and verification in their testing of course their shares measuring against a known standard for manufacturers information they distribute their results widely across the team including those authorities having jurisdiction while they don't have authority to act their reporting and it of course does not relieve the responsibility from the general contractor of doing their part and quality control the contractor has to force meet the contract documents requirements and and we know that should pieces parts products components not be at the standard they're supposed to be then correcting that and repairing that falls as a cost to the contractor before something is removed and redone often there may be a back check and certainly the contractor has opportunities to go to go back and look before taking some corrective measure but these are examples of what quality control may be versus quality assurance owl hush any questions oh we have a comment and we have a comment in the question here so I'll do the comment first here one area I have found GC have fallen short is qa/qc of submittals from subs before signing off on them I would agree that I've seen that and it seems as though and gets worse and worse on each project I can recall getting some middles that had nothing to do with the project that they were submitted on and having just yes in the back ing to the general conditions the contractor is required to review and approve and I'm using a contract language in power to review and approve the Middle's prior to submitting them to the architect and oftentimes I have returned them because it was obvious that they were not reviewed by the contractor before they sent them to me so that so it is an issue that we we have to deal with before we move off that because that's a really good point and if we have had various webinars centered around some middles and one of the there are a few things that that Doug has shared before that I think are bear repeating in a really really good advice for example if you receive as he just described submittals that have nothing to do to project for yes say they do relate to the project but they aren't as the middle that you have asked for nor that you require bogus that wrap them up and send them back don't keep a copy send the whole package back and on your transmittal so you've returned to all of the copies you've retained none because they are not required or have nothing to do with your project no action taken so that you have a document a piece of proof that you've notified the contractor that and they are so unimportant that you didn't even keep a copy okay and the second piece of that we've often talked about what with incidentals are required by your contract documents that that propensity to just send us the Middle's who seems often to be tied to a statement like this my contract with my subcontractor is contingent on the signing awfulness of Mittal said the contractor so because I got it I turn it to you and you need to take action well that's not really necessarily so is it does no it's not just because the contractor has agreed in his contract that he's done a review this the Middle's from the civil contractor doesn't obligate the architect to if the architect has not asked for that's the middle obviously the architects should not review it and as Jim said wrap it up document it and send all of them back no action take it not a request not a request it's the middle in Jim as as you were talking I thought of another point and again the general conditions state that the contractor is to review and approve the submittals so I won't tell a brief story I had received the middle hon a project and the architect had it not the architect the contractor had his stamp on the submit all had checked off that he had reviewed it there was nothing on his stamp that said anything about approving it so I wrapped it up sent him back to the missus you have to reach you and improve it and he calls me almost as well my stamp doesn't say approved it just as reviewed what do you want me to do get another stamp and I said yeah even get another stamp or you can handwrite it on her so you need to do something to indicate that you have approved this little before you sent it to me so I was holding him to his contractual obligations of reviewing and improving the submittal that's what he signed the contract to do that's what I was holding them to do often times I've seen people trying to avoid liability even architects that will have odd language on their review stamps that tries to get around taking responsibility and liability for submittals but I would also say that if your contract says that you have to review and improve it if you have not rejected it or marked in no comments noted or if you give some kind of indication that you don't have any negative comments on it and you're sending them back through you may be implied or interpreted or deemed by the law to have reviewed and approved it because that's what your contract says you were supposed to do so all that language that folks try to put in these stamps to avert avoid liability may not and a court do them much good I've had other attorneys tell me the same thing if you are contractually obligated to review it and approve it and you send it back and you just say reviewed or you just say no exception take it that's gonna be deemed to have been an approval we happen to be planning another question yeah we have Tom first came in here again from John he's always bringing the humour saying pick him up and you should return it with prejudice so we did have a question I'm not sure if y'all are gonna be able to handle it I'm not sure what your expertise in this area is but could you address a government requirement for ISO 9001 compliance how and why do we comply and then specific secondary point is really to the Department of Energy I'm not familiar with that I think and I may be wrong but I think ISO 9000 is a quality assurance program that has been put together by some organization and it's you are in a contract where you're saying you're gonna do that then you need to do it and I don't know exactly what it is I would certainly wanna look it up and find out what it is that I'm just committing to before I sign on the on the line to do that but again if it's something that you have contracts me agreed to do then you're obligated to do it and if you don't you're at risk that's and probably both the negligence and a breach of contract claim and literally as you were saying that Douglas David also punched in here saying a good point about risk avoidance during the review approval process could be interpreted as a breach of contract by you to the architect or the GC and Dean pops in here is just indicating an ISO 9000 is a lot of paperwork probably is well let's look at the next slide Matthew's a quick one and then we'll move on also those involved in quality control involve the authorities having jurisdiction they're determining the laws or whatever ordinances requirements regulations that are involved with a particular location often the testing services send them distribution of their reports so that they can follow up with more detail and they are able to act on the orders of public authority to take action on projects to include stopping work if there is something that they deem is life-threatening and maybe there are other options that they can take as well but this slide is just to remind the group that quality control involves people that are outside our contract as a designer which is with the owner or outside the general contractor which is a contract with the owner you can take a look at the next slide and I'll stop after that one the point here is whatever the program is it is absolutely critical that you get that in place and that you take very serious action about quality insurance and quality control before during and after the project there is no reason to stop once it's bid or once it goes to construction but is something that can happen on a continuous basis and want to get to the next slide and then all stops which is just concurrent quality assurance and quality control and Matthew give you a chance to see if anything has been added or dug in you follow up any of that follow up on the authority having jurisdiction they do play a role in quality assurance and quality control my preference would be for it just to be a demonstration to them that all of those actions have been taking place before they got there here in North Carolina we have our local code officials we have on state projects the state construction office and on some projects we have DHS our that comes out and does their reviews of projects and it really should be a demonstration of them that the systems are working properly that everything has been installed the way it's it's was supposed to me it should not meet another it shouldn't be considered a a quantity control process as part of the construction progress for the contractor and for the architect it really should be more a demonstration to the authority having jurisdiction that the work has been done properly powerful oftentimes we'll add a previous version conference remind the contractors that the design team is not there to conduct quality control and quality assurance for the general contractor they need to do that themselves where there is more of a safety net to help protect the owner but the contractor who's a licensed professional should be responsible to make assured work is proceeding in a quality manner just wanted to comment on that factor do we have anything okay any follow-up to comments that came in here one question from John asking in the legal realm who is ultimately held responsible for QC is it the general contractor or is this clear as mud response it depends and often the case it does depend on the facts and circumstances of the issue we have the slide up here of someone pumping concrete so what happens when the pump up the chute where the concrete is coming out of on the pump is 10 feet above the placement point and so you've got it falling and as its falling and separating and so you're not getting the mix at the point of installation where is supposed to be and the architects out there and he's looking at it and the GC is out there he's looking at it so doing it so whose responsibility is it and I would think legally it's gonna be all I'm his responsibility and hollom are gonna be liable for if the architects not there and he doesn't see it and it wasn't obligated to be on-site then it's not gonna be the architects responsibility or liability so it can it depends on again on the facts and circumstances of the situation but it could could fall to any one or all Matthews or another yeah there was another question here came in from Brian says doesn't responsibility falter whatever is established in the contract but I don't think it just stops at the contract as licensed professionals designers architects engineers are obligated to protect the public health safety and welfare and it can go beyond just what is in the bounds of the contract if they've lied I know Jim remembers a story of the architect would ride by a construction site daily this is an interesting project and he's looking it might stop and get out and talk to us folks and go on behold something happens on the project right and it wasn't even his project he gets pulled into the lawsuit because as a licensed professional he has a legal duty and was involved enough not necessarily involved in the work but involved in enough and hit with his curiosity and stopping by and looking that he should have seen something and noticed that it was an error or a safety issue and as an architect he had a duty to do something about it and didn't do it so it's not just the balance of the contract and again as professionals that Duty goes beyond just your relationship with your owner and your relationship with the contractor it reaches out to the general public [Music] and as this slide indicates and as we've been talking about that that line being fuzzy when you're doing quality control in one step that might become quality assurance for a following step so here they are this example of manufacturing procedures that require checking the material into an assembly so that's reviewing the contract requirements and then once it's assembled it may be tested in another way to see how it performs so if you go to the next slide within the practice guide there's an example of what that photograph indicates which is a concurrent quality assurance and quality control process and it uses that placement of concrete as an example so here assemblies may cross over several different specification sections and if independent testing is involved in those then you know that is important to think about with all the assurance and control particularly in keeping your specifications current because many assemblies are updated annually so you may need to go into your documents and changing and those quality assurance provisions may in part be in part one of your general conditions where the quality control provisions may in be in part two of your authority your specifications so call the assurance in part one in the general portions of the specifications quality control in part two within the particular products within your specifications so that's just an example of that Twizy line again between those two slides and an example that's in the practice guide um let's jump to the next slide and then Matthew all pause and see if there are questions or see Doug if you've got anything to add any question I'm after you yeah we actually had a comment that came in from Dean and then a question that came in from David that's actually similar in tone so Dean states that he endeavors to set the tone for qa/qc especially submittals at the pre-construction meeting as to what others can expect from me as the timeliness anst stringency and then immediately thereafter we got a question from David asking how can the QA process be used to set the tone and expectations for the project team to work in a collaborative matter in a pre con meeting contract negotiations etc see Doug they don't even need us on the call urges answering this in between themselves it's perfect yes and yes and then there's a more specific statement here Dean just wants everybody to know that you should note the increased ascendancy for silica exposure parotia 29 CFR 1926 in 1910 Jen industry as the qa/qc so I'll copy that coming into the the chat box for everybody Jim and I have talked often about establishing the tone early on in the project at that pre-construction conference and building those relationships a lot of times at least has been my experience and June's as well is that we are dealing with many of the same contractors many of the same engineers many of the same authorities having jurisdictions and many the same owners in fact and those relationships get established and by establishing those relationships and having defined what the expectations are people will know and also by word of mouth people all know what your expectations are how strict you're going to be and I think that even helps in this whole quality management process this when you go into a project and you know this architect he's gonna be real strict on muscle metals I've got to get them right so this owner is a real stickler for schedule all of that knowledge that information those relationships are built in to I think this whole quality management process if you're going into it of a situation and one of the parties is not known and I think you really do need to upfront establish what those expectations are and get everybody on the same page so that everybody can come together as a team to produce a good project it's exactly right we're going to end basically with that as a slide a few slides away from here this the title of this one actually should be quality assurance and I apologize for that it quality insurance is in the conditions of the contract and we've talked about all this and we've talked about examples of assurance and how the designer and or how the contractor or involved with each of those and Matthew to go to the next slide it should say quality control and and we've talked about where those conditions are described in the contract with the owner and what the contractor is responsible for and their role in that but also how the designer becomes involved with that quality control piece through periodic visits application certifications for example and monitoring of the work itself and whether we reject it as non-conforming so again that that line remains fuzzy but I wanted to get really to the next two slides and I'll pause there Matthew to see if there's anything else that we should touch on before I go any further yeah there was just a question and a slice clarification asking the contractor should have a quality control program submitted during the beginning of a project correct I don't know that I've ever seen any quality controls the middle but I think it's a is certainly a great idea perhaps for them to be able to describe what their plan is in their organization how they how they provide that portion of their contract requirement I don't know have you ever seen anything like that but I haven't ever seen it in terms of a Sanel coming through but I have certainly had contractors discuss it during interview processes when you're going through the selection process I think that's a great idea well what does start talking about there a second ago is how teamwork makes all of this a undertake a little task being sure that your whole team understands as as you folks have said and setting the tone at the pre-construction conference for how you move forward and how you're going to interact with the team that's there and continuing that process through the project coordinating documents and all of the things that you learn to do as a good designer no reason that it has to stop when you go to construction if you have the ability and the time and the personnel to continue to do that and our experience both of us is more involved your owner is the happier they are the better inform they are the better owner they become of the facility once it transfers over to their use and so let's look at the next five matthew which is the final one of the presentation and i'll just say this and then hush but you know your doug and i also talked a lot about expectation management your owner needs to have realistic goals and this quality control and assurance process becomes much more reasonable good budgets and good schedules we've got to be qualified as designers for the project and the program type to deliver the service we're supposed to provide and the thing for the contract so when you have that right team of owner and designer contractor and you've got the right team on the site agreeing how they proceed from step one you've set yourself up best you can to have a good quality product in [Music] from all aspects I think that pretty much covers it any I have comments or questions Matthew no I think we have covered it and we are pretty much right at the hour so I will throw it back to you to introduce next month and we can close up the session I'll just jump in quick with this and let's go to close this out the next month will be December the 19th a week earlier so that we finish up this year before the holidays really get in full swing and we'll be looking at chapter 8 in the practice guide which is interpretations and modifications so I look forward to all of you being back together with us and wish you a great first part of December before we talk again and druggist over to you I just want to say it's good to be able to participate again and I hope to be able to join in on these course cause more often going forward all right well thank you Jim and Douglas for today's session and as Jim said we look forward to seeing you next month that invite will be going up probably within the next week or so