Streamline Your Society Maintenance Bill Format for Product Quality

Society maintenance bill format for Product quality

well good morning and for some of us good afternoon welcome once again to beyond compliance um my name is aaron bolshaw i'm the moderator of beyond compliance um for those that may be joining us for the first time you've not been around beyond compliance yet it's a periodic industry update for process manufacturers our goal pretty simple just to bring you insights from around the market that you know shape the way we grow our businesses deliver quality products to customers mitigate some supply chain risks and also safeguard our brands all while of course improving yields maximizing productivity because that's what's uh that's what it really counts and this is going to be a fun one today so we're getting into the real cost of quality understanding that it is it's probably a little bit more than what you think it is now uh and most of us are probably doing something to measure cost of quality but we're going to go through some methods models and tips today so really quick before we go further safety chain is the number one plant management platform uniting compliance safety quality and production um and so uh with that i just want to get into uh very quickly setting the table we aren't able to hear you as the speakers and moderators however we do want to hear from you so as we go through our presentation if you have any questions use the webinar console on the right side of your screen or should be on the right side of your screen anyway to submit questions and we'll save time at the end to get as many uh to get through as many of those as we can um we are scheduled uh for about an hour today we're going to be flexible with our time if we can wrap up early we're going to give you some time back and we'll go on our merry ways however the answer to most people's favorite question is this yes you will get the slides you will get the recording after this um uh webinar concludes so okay well with that i do want to introduce our speaker today dennis uh devos and he has probably been in a few of your plans i'm just guessing but uh he's a fellow for the american society for quality asq as we affectionately call it of course and he's a leading authority on quality management lead methods auditing and of course cost of quality uh he's authored and contributed to books on auditing uh i think it's asq certified quality auditor handbook and the sq certified quality manager handbook so both very enlightening and he's bringing all that to us today also engineer at general motors and the automotive industry very exp has deep expertise there as well and of course training advisory services for many many many other manufacturing sectors welcome dennis thank you very much aaron i hope everyone can hear me welcome welcome it's and thank you for coming to our presentation today it's wonderful to be back and i'm so excited to be able to talk to you a little bit today about our uh true cost for quality yes yes and i do hear with a little bit of audio connection issues if i keep hearing them dennis we'll we'll uh we'll let you know but we do hear you loud and clear and we're we're happy you joined us i i you know we've talked about this uh ourselves dennis the way that people actually measure the cost of quality is uh it can vary a lot and for a lot of different reasons right there's going to be some facilities that sort of say hey i want to measure this one particular way because of this one particular situation or scenario because of our product process or customers but we're here to kind of open up i think the blinds a little bit to some other bigger pieces that go into the cost of quality so um before we get into that um can you tell us a little bit about your practice and what you um what you bring to the table for your clients well thank you i i as you said i have a background in the automotive industry but uh of course if you're familiar with lean manufacturing a lot of these other concepts they had their origins in the automotive industry so so that's what we do and and we have a lot of clients across different sectors for example a lot of packaging is really just you know plastics uh blow molding a lot of folks want you know want us to talk to them and and help them implement some of the leading practices that we use in in the automotive industry yeah yeah it is true the automotive industry has led the way the way for a lot of discreet manufacturing but now we see a lot of process manufacturers take up those same practices especially around lean six sigma uh kaizen events things like this that really do help overall productivity because that's kind of what we're in the game right so well let's uh i'm going to hand this over to you wanted to take us through what we're trying to accomplish with our time today with our great thank you so we're going to take you through the cost of quality model a lot of you have probably already seen this and have a familiarity with it but we're going to remind you about the traditional cost of quality model we're going to talk a little bit more about capturing the true costs of poor quality and i'll talk to you about opportunity cost a lot of times people make the mistake of of thinking that the cost for example if they if they have a bad batch and they have to scrap some product they they often make the mistake of thinking that the value of that material is is the scrap value or maybe even the cost of making that material but i'm going to talk to you about how a more realistic picture is to consider the cost of the the cost of what you are uh scrapping at the retail sale price we're going to talk about opportunity cost if you are making bad product you're not making good product and you have an opportunity right for every every pound of bad product you make to have made a pound of good product we'll talk about uh failures eroding production capacity and the cost of quality is a great aggregate measure for uh for an operation uh like oee for example the cost poor quality and really i'm going to talk about how it really starts to matter when you're full if you're not running at capacity and you have to do a little bit of rework or you have to remake a batch that's not the end of the world because you have room to do that but if your plant is running at full capacity every little hiccup every little bit now that you have to rework a remake really hurts because it cuts into the capacity for real product that you would sell at retail price we're going to be talking about that and and making sure that we understand those costs and can factor those in for the true cops cost of quality we'll talk a little bit about some tips and then i have a couple of examples at the end real world examples to get through as we go so we can get started the definition of or one definition of the cost of quality is a method for determining the cost incurred to ensure quality now you may know that there are two halves if you will to the cost of quality model there's the cost of poor quality the internal failure costs such as scrap and rework the external failure costs warranty etc and then we have costs sort of uh cost of good quality the money we spend sort of as an investment for quality assurance so we have costs to prevent non-conformance and we have costs of inspection and test appraisal costs so we spend money think of it like insurance to assure quality that's an investment we hope then on the other side we have the cost of failure customer complaints etc etc so examples of non-conformance costs again external failure warranty sorting material at your customers etc internal failures right we haven't shipped bad product but maybe we identified some scrap rework etc inside of our own plant and those costs are costs of failure costs of poor quality if you will on the other side the conformance costs the money we spend to assure quality routine inspection testing auditing money we spend to catch problems before they get out prevention costs we really want to invest everything we can in preventing non-conformance tools like hassep fmea etc help us with that investments we make in worker training automation you know myriad different ways of investing in our processes to assure good quality the first time you've probably seen this before the the iceberg you know a lot of us look at costs that are maybe just above the water line the part of the iceberg that we see most people who get involved in tracking the cost of quality are good at tracking those visible costs recalls returns reworks rejects waste in various forms and those could make up you know five percent thirty percent of sales depending where you're at but i wanna talk to you today about some of those hidden costs look under the water line if you're busy and you have to remake an order you're probably doing it on overtime that's an added cost paperwork excess inventory premium freight expediting you know remade batches to your customers unused capacity customer allowances giving your customers rebates or concessions to get them to buy your product that's a little bit off spec billing errors complaint handling overdue receivables because they're not going to pay you right away customer dissatisfaction some of these costs can be elusive but they're really the right things to try to track again some examples of external failure costs warranty sorting remaking an order that was rejected by a customer how about breaking into the schedule to remake if you set a schedule for several days and you suddenly have to break in to remake an order that's hugely disruptive what's the impact of that in your organization you may have travel costs to the customer to the field those costs become a cost of external failure customer grief loss of reputation hard to quantify but very very important internal failure costs of course scrap and rework repair remakes breaking into the schedule to remake the very same thing whether we catch a problem inside the walls or outside changing your schedule retooling setups cleaning out your vessels to change over right when you're breaking in like that hugely disruptive downtime is sometimes considered a cost of poor quality taking a markdown for concession expediting raw materials because you used everything up and you need more et cetera the conformance costs are those investments that we make to assure product quality prevention costs some examples could be our design choices designed for manufacturability the bill of material for our product might be a little bit more expensive because we know that choosing those ingredients or those components make the product easier to make and leads to overall lower cost less risk of manufacturing et cetera fmea analysis hassip is an investment in prevention of non-conformance error proofing and automation training a lot of people don't think of training as an investment in quality but it certainly can be quality management systems auditing at all levels so these are costs absolutely they're not free but we hope that those investments help us to assure good quality appraisal costs on the right inspection and test at all levels receiving inspection purchasing inspection measuring and test equipment maintenance and calibration labor etcetera etcetera so the full cost of quality model does include both the prevention costs and the appraisal costs a lot of us though now nowadays tend to focus on the pro the cost of non-conformance the cost of poor quality but understand that the complete model includes those investments in prevention i don't have to tell you how expensive it can be when we when we screw up right one bad batch is too many depending on the sector you're in and depending on the customers you serve when your customers receive defective materials they may impose penalties on you they expect us to perform a full investigation of root cause and implement system level corrective action they expect us to spend whatever it takes to fix the problem to make sure it doesn't come back containment or in some industries it's called controlled shipping your customer says you know you sent us this defect now we don't have confidence that you're going to keep providing us quality product we want 100 inspection until you can prove to us that we're no longer going to get defective product in some industries we have third party containment not only do you check your output 100 then an outside company does it again at your expense and the example i have on the screen is typical 30 an hour for a sorting company three people two shifts a day 20 days a month the cost of that containment activity can be thirty thousand dollars or more per month when we recognize that the cost of poor quality is very high in the way i've just described that compels us now to make investments investments in prevention appraisal to really make sure that nothing gets to the nothing bad gets to the customer because as we said one bad batch is too many now there are costs to investing in quality assurance there are costs associated with correcting mistakes but you may already be thinking that well how much is too much how much could one invest in preventing defects and and you might be overspending so i'm not going to take you through this curve but you can see that when i have poor quality i have a very high cost of non-conformance maybe when i have exceptional quality i have no defects but i've really made high dollar investments in that quality assurance so i've been spending money either to prevent non-conformance or to fix it so what we do is we encourage you to look at where these two curves cross and choose that optimal amount of spending when you invest in quality based on the cost of your non-conformance if the cost of your non-conformance is low and your customers aren't imposing crushing sanction on you it might make sense from a business perspective to spend less on prevention and just pay to fix the you know the mistakes and the bad and the bad product that gets to the field that's a business decision to make so again you heard me say that investments in appraisal and in prevention are like insurance right we invest appropriately in prevention and appraisal methods to mitigate the risk based on how high the cost of external failure is now if you look at your hassip and your control plan look at the cost of all of those controls and look at the cost of those inspections add that up what does it cost you every year to assure good quality that's your prevention cost that's really think of it like an insurance premium if you spend a million dollars a year on quality assurance well you hope that you're avoiding a million dollars a year in penalty if you're not you might be overspending on the prevention side if the cost of non-conformance is a hundred thousand dollars a year spending a million dollars to avoid that may not be the best business choice the cost of poor quality comes right off the bottom line it's free money so we have to think now about what is our annual cost of poor quality add up the cost of replacement orders remaking orders expedites sorting travel containment costs those cost support quality and now that becomes a bag of free money that you have to potentially save and you can use that money that you save on external failure to invest in prevention we think about it like free money to be used elsewhere like i started to say you can add up the cost of your automation controls and inspections and decide if those investments you've made in risk reduction cost or pay is the investment that you make through your fmea and your hassop an asset an asset or a liability what is the true cost of your controls and is it worth it we hope that it will cost less to avoid more so you have to first understand what those costs of external failure can be what is the cost of poor quality in your industry and at your customers that's the bogey and we invest up to that amount to avoid those costs in a hassip or an fmea we we talk about the probability of occurrence of a failure those occurrence rankings speak to how often or or our level of internal failure the detection scores speak to how well will we contain the problem in our own plant or will it get out the door to our customers resulting in an external failure and we know that the cost of external failure can be a lot more than the cost of internal failure so set those targets for yourself what do you want your cost of external failure to be and then use your control plan to drive that cost of poor quality down and meet those targets by making targeted investments in your appraisal and in your prevention i want to talk a little bit about opportunity costs and this is really i think where you'll be deriving the value from this morning's presentation the opportunity cost is the loss of some potential gain from other alternatives when one alternative is chosen right so what else could you have been doing with your people while you were doing rework well you probably could have been making good product how much profit could you have earned using that time using that machine capacity if you were building good products to sell instead of building stuff that you're throwing in the scrap bin opportunity using one hour of machine time to generate scrap is one hour of machine time you could have been making products to sell at full price that's the opportunity cost i call the cost of poor quality the capacity killer if you're not very busy and you have to remake an order you have to do a little bit of rework who cares you have lots of time and lots of machine capacity to do these things the impact on your organization is well it's not negligible but it's not a crisis you can have rework repair rerun and if you have time to do that you're never late to your customers but those those true costs and impacts get masked by all the free capacity you don't recognize how that is eroding your productive capacity because for all of those things you that you're doing wrong you could have been spending that time doing it right if you're full defects rework reruns will kill you the true cost of every part you throw away is not the cost of the materials in that product it's the full selling price you can never get that time back again if you're full now you're doing rework and reruns on overtime so what's the cost of bringing in labor at time and a half bringing in supervision planning for overtime maintenance support and probably worse even than that when you're making orders twice now your customer orders back up and lead times get longer leading to further customer dissatisfaction i have uh clients you know that that extrude aluminum or they they mold plastic and a very common thing that you hear is well scrap isn't a problem right we just re-melt the aluminum or the re-grind the plastic we reuse the material right we've lost almost nothing i hear this a lot and it makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up it's just not right or how about you know we pay our employees anyway so we just have them sort parts you know they're already on the payroll it doesn't cost us anything what could they have been doing instead here's a quick example from a little game that i play on my phone i in this little game i play on my phone i can bet one dollar to get three gems and i have a 100 percent success rate now i can also bet that same one dollar to get four gems but i may only win four gems half the time it makes more sense to constantly bet one dollar for three gems rather than risking trying to get four and getting zero so every time i bet on the four gems and it fails i could have had three now i have to win the four gem bet say that three times fast i have to win the four gem bet over the three three more times just to break even because now right the net gain is only one gem every time i lose i now have to bet again to get four to make up the one so i've got to play three more times i have to succeed three more times just to break even another one i was thinking about the other day there's a cheap gas station about 20 minutes out of town and you would ask yourself well does it cos is it worth driving 20 minutes to get some cheaper gas well i can save about six dollars a tank on gas so that's okay i can i drive 20 minutes back and forth so 40 minutes i invest so i can save 18 an hour getting cheap gas now that's not bad but in my line of work i need to be billable could i be doing client work if i could spend that hour doing client work while i earn more than 18 an hour it doesn't pay to spend my time running around for cheap gas when i could sell that time for more but i'm not that busy i'm not working on a saturday so i can drive for cheap gas on saturday all day long and save 18 an hour because the value of that time on a saturday that i can't sell is zero so there's lots of examples but we have to think in those terms the cost of poor quality includes what could i have been doing instead i'm not an accountant i'm an engineer when you say what's the value of a half-built house the accountants would say well there's a certain amount of lumber in there there's a certain amount of labor in there and they would give you some value now of course i can't hear you but i want all of you to say it with me together what is the value of a half-built house nothing the value of a half-built house is nothing the accountants can value the materials etc etc they're just simply wrong no one will buy a half-built house it's worth nothing it's worth negative because you have to pay somebody to tear it down and haul it away those sunk costs are gone a half-billed house has no value everything in it is spent you've thrown away whatever fifty thousand dollars and a half built house and as long as it's a half built house it's worth zero it's true not everyone thinks of that this way so if you use an old accounting model for your cost of poor quality that somehow gives you this voodoo value of a half-built house it's not true it's not real the value of a half-billed house is nothing it's worth nothing until you build it and sell it all right what else so a little bit on the approach to reducing your cost of poor quality so first identify those opportunities for cost reduction high scrap high rework quantify the true cost of the problem and that quantification should include opportunity cost in a few minutes i'm going to show you that most people really really underestimate the true cost of poor quality so where do you think you can make some gains what are the true costs of the problems and then you have that that target that that bucket of free money i talked about and that can help steer us in terms of how much we're willing to invest solve the problem then of course like any type of problem solving we prioritize those actions that we can take to improve the process to reduce the cost of poor quality prioritize the actions take the actions then evaluate your success as cost reduction maybe the cost of your problem was a hundred thousand dollars you invest ten thousand dollars to make some improvement go back now and reevaluate the cost of poor quality we hope it came down maybe it came down to 50. that's a huge gain you reduced the cost of poor quality from a hundred thousand dollars to fifty thousand dollars by spending ten thousand dollars that's a pretty wise investment so we evaluate that success in dollar terms and then of course sustain the new practice continuously improve work at knocking that cost down even further without getting too much into the weeds you know we can identify our problems we can identify those high cost problems based on some pareto chart or based on some prioritization matrix a two by two which would weigh you know effort and cost against benefit and value and and deciding which one or two projects are most important to begin first i have a couple of examples to share and although i've played with the numbers just a little bit for illustration purposes these are actually real examples i didn't make them up i had a client that was in plastic extrusion and they were sort of a job shop they weren't very big and they had many customers and they did a wide variety of plastic products some automotive and some of their parts were painted in house and and they had a level of customer rejections and internal rejections which meant that they had to remake uh batches of their plastic products you know three times a month or four times a month they had a rework of molding defects and paint defects at a level of about two and a half percent and i remember this this case because i was going through with them you know their management review etc and they were showing me their cost poor quality and they thought it was 300 a month and just sort of in my head i knew that given the scenario i just shared with you it's impossible for it to be that low and of course the plant was at full capacity with a customer backlog so i worked with this client just did a little bit of back of the envelope calculation with them and we you know we can use this example if if i made 720 pieces of this plastic extrusion now i have to re-run an order for 720 pieces the cycle time is three parts per minute over four hours etc now there's a machine charge time our machine charge out time is six hundred dollars an hour we need to add an hour for setup so that's five hours labor of course the rerun had to be done on the weekend we needed one and a half operators at thirty dollars an hour we had cost of additional inspection and packaging the parts sell for two dollars and ten cents so that's the value that we lost by re-running this order you know not the 20 cents or whatever with the plastic that's in it so the true cost of poor quality for one run is five hours at six hundred dollars per machine hour three thousand dollars labor inspection and packaging 180 plus 250 and then the cost of the loss sales and some people will disagree that that value belongs whether or not that value belongs in there i think it does for the reasons i just described to you opportunity cost i'm throwing away all of the value of the good parts i could have made when i made that order so when you add it up it's a it's of the order of four thousand eight hundred and seventy dollars per run that's already a lot more than three hundred dollars a month that doesn't include even some indirect labor like weekend supervision support other sort of administrative penalties that are imposed by the customer you know we had to probably do some type of you know corrective action form with them maybe be on the phone with them those are all costs maybe there's travel to the customer our salesman or our quality folks had to go out and visit the customer to try to placate them all of the associated indirect staff time credits rma the cost of cutting into an already full schedule the cost of customer annoyance and then again just as this is just back of the envelope sort of stuff if 4870 dollars is sort of an average cost for a rerun if you're going to do four a month maybe three or four a month that's about 48 per year add all that up 230 000 a year not 3 600. and i don't remember where they got that 300 a month value from this is the true true error cost of quality in that organization so of course when i did this with them just just quick and you know of course the the president of the company who's in the room his jaw dropped and as well it should when you calculate the true cost of poor quality rolling in opportunity costs you're often very surprised and very shocked and that then creates the the impetus for us to improve it's not a few thousand dollars a year 200 grand is starting to be real money another quick example maybe i make 5 000 orders a year maybe i have two percent rework and that's conservative but that's a realistic number that's a hundred reworks per year right two percent of five thousand i have to inspect and reject the original lot maybe that's thirty dollars worth of labor i prepare a rework ticket i rework the product two people on a weekend again when you're full all of this is done on overtime if you have the luxury of just bringing in some folks on overtime for for various reasons you can't even always do that moving material repackaging the parts re-inspecting the lot so in this quick example two percent rework which is conservative a hundred rework activities a year starts to cost you now seventy three thousand dollars right off the bottom line free money every single time that you can avoid rework make one less defective batch you're putting more money in the bank how bad can it get you've heard of these two companies i'm sure takata is a recent example just from a few years ago they were the world's largest automotive airbag manufacturer and they had a recall across something like 42 million cars because they made seat belts for everyone by the time the fines and the payouts were made the company went bankrupt and it was sold off in pieces to its competitors the value of that company used to be 400 billion yen it's a japanese company when they sold it off in pieces it was worth what's that one cent on the dollar four billion yen that's the cost of poor quality a leading a leading global automotive supplier driven out of business union carbide this one goes back a ways i i can't remember i want to say 20 years ago union carbide had a plant in bhopal india and the plant exploded and it it it was i think was a fertilizer plant so when the plant exploded had this fire there were massive toxic clouds and something like 10 000 people died from breathing in this toxic gas it might have been chlorine i don't remember 407 million dollars u.s in damages and the ceo he ran away i don't remember if they caught him or not but he ran and the ceo because he faced such personal liability and jail time of course these are thankfully special and rare examples but this this is how bad it can get so understand the cost of poor quality the true cost of poor quality understand the investments that we can make to avoid those costs and you will avoid these penalties um i think this is the last slide i wanted to just share with you there um a textbook written by my good friend doug wood at asq and uh there's a book called the principles of quality costs it goes into a lot of this type of type of topic if you're interested so in summary the true cost of poor quality can be shocking and it should be it really should hit you're right between the eyes if the cost of poor quality is too low you're not going to do anything about it let's face it the real cost is using productive assets to make scrap and to make orders twice loss of profit loss of reputation the customers now aren't happy because they can't use what you gave them and now they've got to wait until you can give them more identify those high cost areas select a project with high payoff and work on process improvement and then evaluate your success by using the same cost equality model and see what you save in terms of your external failure costs by making those investments and the cost of quality or the cost of poor quality is and and should be an important key performance indicators for all organizations and if you're not already tracking cost of poor quality as an important kpi we certainly do encourage you to do so time is money and with that i think we'll conclude our presentation thank you for listening and now i will invite aaron to share questions with me and i will do my best to answer those for you oh very good time is indeed money i think everyone on this phone call knows that very well it's the ability to translate that into real financial terms and then sharing it with finance so that you get resources that you need so you get the attention and uh the the you know the wherewithal actually make improvements i think um i speak some of safety chain clients where we say you know there's there's a real gap in uh some plants ability to move from you know i got this data i understand there's like there may be a problem or there could be a opportunity to improve but i don't know how to get people uh in a better understanding of it right and that's that's indeed the trick so absolutely i've got a couple of questions uh encourage anyone if you haven't if you have any questions please uh use that console to your right uh send them in we've got just a couple of minutes here to go but uh uh francis asks you know well it's kind of a bit of a story i'll kind of work my way through it dennis and give you this as a as a bit of a synopsis so there can be a lot to track to get full accurate coq what are the one or two best practices to produce to produce this and he kind of so it was two numbers sort of two questions but the other question was do i want to produce a good quality number and a poor quality number separate and then look at them that way let me answer the last question first the answer to that is yes you do want to track appraisal costs or prevention and appraisal or the cost of good quality separately from the cost of failure and and and here's why of course you can't see me because i'm not on video but i i'm talking with my hands you're going to have two you're going to have two curves and the two it's it's it's not really the one in the presentation well it could be that one but if you think about it if i have um if i if i have a high cost of poor quality and i'm making improvements i want to track that over time and i want to watch it decline i may have a cost of of internal quality or cost of good quality if you will that line should stay constant or maybe increase just a little bit once you see the two lines cross then maybe you're spending too much on the good quality right the other reason you track them separately is because the um how do i want to say this the initiatives if you will or the ways of addressing and reducing the cost of of internal quality assurance and external failure are different right so there's sort of different metrics that mean sort of different things and your approach when you try to to to work on one or the other are a little bit different so i would encourage you to split them up if you think about it if you have them as an aggregate together your cost of quality line could be dead flat but underneath of that what you might not see is that your your external failure costs are going down your internal prevention costs are going up so that the net value looks like it's the same right the components the two halves that contribute to that change and you could say oh well our cost of quality number hasn't moved in years that might be true when it when you add them together but it could be that you've really made a great increase in reducing the cost of external failure by making internal investment if you keep the numbers together you won't see that so hopefully that makes sense the first part of the sorry aaron were you going to say something no i said that's awesome that's exactly right so the the key is separate them both and and know hey you know if that line that you're talking about for poor quality hits that good quality then you have it you have a you know a moment to think and say wait a second maybe we need to readjust yeah and the first part of that question uh is about like best practice how do you how do you choose the numbers that go in there and and i'm just going to point back to the example i had it could be either one of these they're similar but think of something like this right so if the question was you know what you include in the cost of poor quality it would be something like what i have on the screen it would be the cost of rerunning the product thinking about labor about machine time it would be the cost of the material that you scrapped at full retail price that's the opportunity cost so some of what i have here on the screen i i would i would use as the answer to that question that's great now let me say at this point because i didn't say it in the presentation how you measure the cost of poor quality is less important than always doing it the same way create a model and the model will be imperfect that's fine the key would then be to measure cost of poor quality consistently so that if you have an imperfect model but it's repeatable you'll be able to compare your performance over time if you if you are constantly changing your cost to quality calculations there's no way to compare your performance right it also becomes less believable by those in finance right so i like your your thought there dennis about the model models are made to be broken they're made to learn from what's actually going on on the floor right uh and and adjust as needed because things change right so i like that model building and and then what you can do is you can kind of shake a stick at the math and go well this is what it's saying this leads us to a really a great question dennis the next question here from amir was thanks for the presentation great stuff uh to gather those costs where is it better to start is it accounting department or doing some time studies on the floor and actually gathering the data yourself that's a really great way it is a good question and of course as an engineer i used to discount the value of the accounting and financial folks but the the answer is it's sort of both but engage the financial people now recognize that they still believe there's some value to a half-billed house but that's okay we can we love them anyway that's all right um but i found it useful to take the models that i can and every time i work with a client on this the models are slightly different and that's okay again consistency matters but anyway then reality check your model with the financial people that's always worth doing make sure that because we're not financial experts but say hey mr finance we think this is kind of the cost of poor quality and walk them through your model and see what they think and they'll usually have something maybe to contribute but they'll they'll they'll always agree if you do this properly they're never going to disagree and that's good it helps to get their feedback to reality check your model it helps engage them and a lot of the information that you need for your model you will probably need to get from that department so you want to make them your friend yes yes you do the la the last thing i'll say about this too is let's say it's uh premium freight you know what's the cost of expediting your materials all over the country now you know we'd be tempted to say to accounting hey i need every invoice for every extra truck that went all over the country now that's a lot of work you want to use simplifying assumptions wherever you can so if you have countries all over the united story customers all over the united states and you're transporting all of this material around yes each of those the shipping to each of those cities will have a slightly different cost but it would be hugely painful to try to get to it you know accurate costing to within a few dollars for every city in the united states so for for the example of of shipping expedite i tell my clients choose a nominal value say it's 500 the average cost of sending a truckload of stuff to my customer is 500 bucks or it's a thousand dollars pick a number and then just apply that number as a factor right every time i have to you know ship something twice it cost me a grand i just throw the number at it it's simple it's reasonable it's simple it's reasonable and it helps to make sure that you're not underestimating those costs i would add that dennis just one one um thought process which is you and you you mentioned it you you have to get finance to say yes i believe in that number okay so if if to start out a mirror i would say go to them first do you have this number okay how do you derive it ask them for their model understand what they're using and how they're using it then take that to the floor and balance that against maybe what the reality is okay there's going you will almost certainly find some gaps those gaps are where you can help provide value in their model and then you can start to work with finance to say hey let's adjust the way that we look at these to reflect a more fuller picture the accurate true cost of quality and um gain consensus along along the way bring your finance person to the floor show them this is what i'm talking about when i'm saying this this is what's actually happening because a lot of times when you live your life in a spreadsheet as many finance financial uh folks can do right they lack the context for that data and so bull pulling down to the floor builds that teamwork that you guys can both sort of be on the same side of the table working uh proactively on on increasing productivity decreasing these wastes and so forth so well thank you bring us to the end any any final words no thank you for adding that aaron i don't think i could have said it that better myself are there any more questions or are we sort of finished that's it yeah we got a couple minutes off so i was just going to mention a couple of things coming up here safetychain.com of course you can go we do have uh the uh understand spc fundamentals of course we don't have the right date on there today is april 5th i think that's still accurate but uh we do also have um the spc uh uh uh coming up as well so um dennis i wanted to flash up on your screen really quick um if you have any questions this is really been super helpful um dennis is the expert uh here and uh you know sometimes tackling these projects whether you started or or you're looking at going into this or something like this sometimes you really just need a partner to help you along and this is where dennis uh specializes you need someone like dennis to help guide you through this process so i very much recommend reaching out to dennis uh contacting him for more for more information and then uh we will be following up with everyone on the line today with the uh slides and the video and all that good stuff to uh consume at your leisure after this so with that i do want to wrap it up for today i appreciate um uh everyone's time again it's busy so appreciate everyone taking some time today to spend with us and that will uh that will end it for us on beyond compliance i appreciate everyone and uh go take care you