Can I Sign Vermont Electrical Services Contract

Can i document type sign electrical services contract vermont

today's webinar presentation is titled Vermont's revised acceptable management practices our presenter today is Dave Wilcox dave is the watershed Forester for the Department of forests parks and recreation yes bentota Department for 19 years previously as a state land forester managing land out of the berry district office in his new role as a watershed forester he administers the amt program for FB are working with loggers foresters and landowners to protect water quality in Vermont please join me in welcoming Dave Wilcox Dave I'll go ahead and turn it over to you alright thanks Kate so this webinar scenarios a little bit different for me is my first one I've done but bear with me out I'd like to save questions for the end like Kate said although if I'm moving pretty quickly through some of this we may stop somewhere along the way and pause for some questions so send those questions indicate and chill when we have a minute you know ask me over the over the headphone so what we're going to cover today before i get into the media handpiece i'll talk a bit about the role the forests provide for water quality address how logging can affect water quality if not done correctly and how the EMPs can protect water quality when they're correctly implemented from there i'll provide some background on the MPs and share the results of the hamp you monitoring program working with loggers and landowners and obviously the biggest part will be going over the revised the empty rules and attached to your webinar I'm not sure what it's like on that end but you'll have two lengths to two documents one is the actual rule the new rules just like you would get off the website and that's the best place to find the the new rule there isn't a manual yet but something we'll talk about today and then the other resource is a link or it's actually a document that has a bunch of links on it to supporting information that I'll talk about in a little bit as well so we'll get started and talk about real quickly the forest watershed functions in water and values for sirs wide variety of critical ecosystem services to protect watershed functions and water quality they're not only sponges for water allowing recharge of groundwater and slow release a heavy precipitation to the stream but are also well many treatment plants for for the pollutants and and things that enter the forest before it gets into the water bodies forest retained nearly all the nitrogen deposited on them from the atmosphere and can filter and process up to ninety percent of nitrate and groundwater and ground waters that flow through them on the way to streams and rivers so they're very important and you know it's critical to keep them intact and to protect them as we all know so you know the basics on how that happens you know that it all happens on the forest floor and keeping those from being compacted and channelizing water is very important it helps filter sediment and other pollutants from surface runoff they're highly porous and permeable and rainwater can infiltrate into the soil freely and the litter and hummus protect the mineral soil from rain drops by absorbing the impact of the energy of the of the raindrops and headwater streams eighty percent of the total stream miles in a watershed er headwater streams we have the intermittent streams that we we all see and then we have the perennial streams that are in the areas that we work and the impact of timber harvesting on water quality we can you know history tells us that degradation of water resources remains a public concern you see the two photos here you can tell which was which was a long time ago on which one was was not so long ago practices have changed states have adopted and p.s to protect water quality and forster and lager training is an important part of implementing those practices and protecting water quality we're taking part in that today and how logging can affect water quality listed here reducing soil permeability increasing soil erosion by diverting water or changing the water flow on a hillside and concentrating water flow so instead of having a dispersed flow across the surface we have channelization and focusing and that energy and that excess water all into one location that typically is not experienced doesn't experience that and it causes you know negative impacts and the amts in a nutshell our preventive measures that help control soil erosion and protect water quality proper implementation of the MPS help absorb and disperse runoff retain soil nutrients filter sediments and prevent fluctuations of water temperature by leaving adequate shade around around streams so you know it's all of us all the things the impacts that we saw on the previous slide the NPS are designed to mitigate that by all of these things listed and the goal obviously is to present to prevent discharge of sediment and logging flash and control chemical pollutants and and prevent their discharge to water bodies as well so now I'd like to talk about the specific antes the revised am PS and i'm not i'm going to stop calling them revised amts because they're the MPS the little orange book as we know is no longer valid and the revised antes are what the link that you saw and and like i said i call them a revised antes again I would didn't mean to but there are the am PS and I will in the course of this webinar talk about some of the changes that have been expedientes have had made or incorporated but long story short is you know when we're done that the aim teams are the amts now and and and obviously we need to to talk about and and and bring people up to speed on the revisions but I'm just going to try not to say revised antes as much so I'm going to I'm going to talk about the amts in the while covering the main principles of water resource protection and you can see them listed here and planning the operation is I think the first and most important aspect of conducting a timber sale and event implementing the NPS need to be thought about during that process and included into that planning process starting from that point a better result will be attained for sure so and that's something that in the new am p manual which will replace the orange book we will have more on that planning aspect of the of anp implementation so the actual entities will be broken down into the remaining four principles controlling water flow minimizing biological impacts to stream corridors stabilizing disturbed soil and managing chemical pollutants so real briefly what you'll see in the planning information that gets added to the manual are the you know these planning practices that will help protect water quality and and first and foremost identifying streams wetlands and other surface waters that are within the harvest area or and not only the harvest area but between on your access route a corridor to the harvest area a lot of times it could be just a main kruk road that has a bridge that is where those the the biggest impact could potentially be on a timber sale and of course that needs to be addressed just as if it were inside the sale so so that's important as well clearly designating once you have the streams wetlands and walk other surface waters clearly designate the buffers in the field and that's according to Table four and we'll see that in a little bit and then based on audit ography and the streams determining will kick the location of truck road skid trails and log landings based on all sorts of these things we know are important topography pinch points with with slope and ground conditions that sort of thing and then and then decide on appropriate a MPS that will address all of the aspects that they need to in the in the harvest and then and also it's important to consider long-term needs and future logging operations on the property as far as building your roads properly putting them to bed properly so that that that infrastructure is is there and usable and protected and not only the water is protected but your infrastructure is safe and can withstand the 10 15 20 years of sitting idle until the next operation and proper planning will avoid this there's some examples of you know what can happen when you don't plan ahead you know we haven't rode on the right that didn't see enough water bars maybe if maybe a culvert wasn't in I'm not sure any of the specific instances of here but something wasn't wasn't done enough to protect this road and and it washed out and will either need to be well it needs will need to be rebuilt and and hopefully you know water bars installed and whatever drainage structures are necessary it looks like maybe there's a stream that jumped and came down the road to but whatever needed to happen didn't and that's that's part of planning and then of course we have a bridge that isn't even close to being long enough and you know that that was a place actually wear a simple Ford was suitable and this bridge didn't even need to be constructed because the summer logging was was suitable and this turned out to be a very good Ford and they didn't even need the bridge so that was a case where they tried to go above and beyond but they didn't really look at the situation and understand what the what the the best situation was her best solution was so the purpose in the applicability of the amp is a little bit of background on what they're for and where they apply their their measures to minimize the potential impacts and vlogging discharge and that sort of thing and they apply to all logging operations on public and private lands in Vermont and and they include even if it's logging for the purposes of land clearing or construction it includes that right up until the point i'd like to say up until the point where the equipment changes and it's no longer logging equipment its construction equipment an example in A&P is as logging may be conducted for force management purposes or logging may be conducted for the purpose of clearing land for some other type of land use such as commercial residential or electrical or electric utility development so that is considered logging and the MPS need to be in place so getting started on the first principle of controlling water flow we'll talk about the specifics of skid trails and truck roads and I'm going to go through the amts here and it covers what I would say is if ninety percent of what's in the rule but this does not just warn people this does not in probably does not include every single nuance that's in the rule you want to be very familiar with the specific rule itself and when I caught talk about the tables the tables are included but you want to pay very close attention to them and make sure you understand them correctly so I'm going to cover like I said but nine hopefully at least ninety percent of the of the EMPs and the little nuances you know they're minor in my opinion put so I've got the the nuts and bolts of it basically so but i guess a just so you know make sure you're familiar with the rule itself because it takes a few times to read it before it really sinks in and and all of a sudden clicks in your head so keep truck roads less than ten percent grade and skid trails less than twenty percent grade steeper sections are allowed up to 300 feet but shall be the minimum number of sections grades and lengths necessary due to physical constraints so basically lay your roads out where you can keep keep the lowest minimal slopes possible and and being compliance with that with that statement water bars broad-based dips and itch relief culverts she'll be installed correctly in according to table one and we'll see table 1 in a minute and had it the revised am peas table 1 or the new am page table 1 is is different than the old table 1 and we'll talk about that and ruts on skid trail shall be smooth where soil slopes or depth or length of rutting result in a likelihood of erosion and that's more specific and it talks about where in cases where it's likely that these ruts are going to get worse over time they need to be smoothed out based on on on those things listed so here's table 1 it is different then in the old one includes a different check for water bar spacing on skid trails during logging and for after logging or closed out it also includes different charts for broad-based it rly broad-based dips ditch release culverts and water bars for permanent and temporary truck roads the spacing is not so much different but it's more explicit on Wow the type of road that you're either we're using or closing out and the spacing and it also one new thing is it it has a different spacing for skid trail water bars and turnips during logging and that's good too good to look at and then after logging is done for close out that they need to be beefed up basically and more numerous water bars installed and be careful where you terminate drainage structures they drainage structures shall not terminate into streams or other waters uh approaches to stream crossings permanent and temporary truck Road ditches shall be turned out into a filter area a minimum of 25 feet away from the top of bank and that underline wording is is new same is true for approaches to stream crossings water bars turn-ups broad-based it shall divert the surface water runoff as close to 25 feet away from the top of banquettes existing soil rock legend ground conditions allow so the goal is to let that water give that water 25 feet of absorption before it could mix it into the into the stream channel and then many minimizing impacts to stream crossings so that the biological impacts aspect of corridors auntie's are designed to maintain the natural flow of water in streams and the way they do that is properly installing incising temporary stream crossing structures according to table 2 and we'll see that shortly and and we talked about two types of structures here temporary structures and permanent structures now the amts now state that for any permanent structure on a perennial stream a stream alteration permit needs to be received a gotten that that structure needs to be permitted for temporary structures which which the MPS deal with they we have a definition of what temporary means and 44 pulled in towards or brushed forwards brushed in fords in the winter they have to be removed immediately after the job closes out or within 12 months of installation whichever is sooner and then for bridges and culverts for temporary bridges and culverts they have to be removed as you know as soon as closeout happens or within 18 months of installation again whichever is sooner so that's that time period is new it was never stated it just a term temporary before and the reason for that is as they with our sister agency Department environmental conservation the crossing sighs if we want it any longer than that basically our car crossing sighs structure structure size would have to be a lot bigger so in order to keep those sizes down to a to what we're feasible and and economically made sense we needed to keep them short and and not leave them in for very long that makes any sense so that was kind of a give-and-take there so here's table 2 and you see it's got it's a little different than the old table to it yield table who had two different columns for a drainage area one was for well-drained soils and one was for shallow and legislate and and we kind of ended up somewhere in the middle whether with our drainage area and are in our minimum culvert diameter size and and we also have a minimum size opening required for bridges and culverts in square feet corresponding to the appropriate size with the culvert and and it there's a little asterisk there that says for truck Road across victory leaf culverts they have to be at least 15 inches even though you could have a 4 inch or I'm sorry 4 acre drainage area which says 12 inches you need at least a 15 inch for drainage ditches on truck roads yeah I'm used to asking question but now we're going to wait until they get to the end sorry about that so in addition to what i said already about stream crossings we have additional things in the na mps pertaining to crossings and streams in all water she'll be kept free of logging flash stream crossing shall be made perpendicular to the stream channel shall be located where the st eam channel is narrow and well-defined banks are stable and approaches are ten percent grade or less and after removal of the structure water bar she'll be installed as close to 25 feet back from the top of bank as ground conditions a while so a little bit more just Pacific on the location of the stream crossings not only the sizing but also the location catch up to myself here so protecting stream buffers is also an important aspect of water quality about require special management considerations to protect water quality in these areas the MPS call for leaving forested buffers along streams where only light cutting should be conducted to maintain shade no long equipment the lab within 25 feet streams to minimize the potential soil disturbance and and one thing that I should mention then the empties now have a lot of definitions in the beginning which which were not part of the old am peas and one thing one of the definitions is we now define continuous source cover as beeline stocking and I think that's a benefit it gives people a place to start as far as you know what that means and how much of the buffer needs to be retained and then table for didn't change at all it's that's still the buffer distance from the stream top of bank and the and the road trail or landing based on percent slope and and the new amts take into account the fact that some existing infrastructure did not meet the amts and the empty state that these roads trails and landings can only be used when they are stable with all recommended am peas in place and discharge is unlikely in many cases JMP practices will include the use of addition sediment control practices like silk pants and check dams and to make them meet this am p it's probably going to take a little bit extra in some cases and you're going to want to be make sure that your n peas are bulletproof to use those skid trails truck roads and landings that are better with in the in the forest buffer and new truck roads skid trails and landing shall not be located in the buffer unless there's no feasible alternative due to existing soil rock ledge or other ground conditions and the same goes for the new truck roads if this or the case and you had really nowhere else to put it based on bounding lines or you know slopes or other other physical conditions that limit your your access again those vampaneze need to be bulletproof and you're going to need probably more silt fence in hey bill check dams and more numerous water bars and that sort of thing to make to make that so erosion and discharge is unlikely that needs to be the to meet that standard and then you know soil stable Asian soil soil stabilization very important as far as preventing discharge and soil movement and another change in the new amts which is underlined here instead of 50 feet or I'm sorry instead of 25 feet from the edge of the stream see the mulch exposed soil within 50 feet of the stream and this is both after the installation of the crossing structure and and that is it except for travel portion you don't need to mulch the seed mulch the skid trail because that's going to be skidded on but the edge around the what you just installed where there's exposed soil needs to be seeding and mulched and then during closeout seen in mulch exposed soil within 50 feet of stream channel where structures were removed and that does include this kid trail because it's not going to be used as a skid trail for the near future so again it's gone from 25 feet to 50 feet and on the slide on the Left shows essentially it shows what you can do if you have brush or logging flash on the ground that kind of acts as as soil stabilization and that's fine you don't need to remove that you can you can leave that it will protect the soil the graphs and things will eventually grow up through but you just have to keep in mind that that can't be left anywhere where there's a stream crossing installed if that is a cold four-door brushtown for that all has to come out but it can stay where where it's not a stream or water body and then landings during logging Phil fence check dams and Dre instructor shall be correctly installed on log laying endings to prevent sediment from entering streams and other waters fairly simple it needs you need to keep track of what's happening down slope of those landings and implement them and apply whatever you need to to prevent soil movement and then after logging long log landing shall be stabilized and drainage structures shall be correctly installed to prevent sediment from entering streams and other waters it does not say mulch like it did so the landing on the right obviously was mulched that was a decision well I was under the old am piece but going forward it's not mandatory to put hay down on a landing as long as it meets the standard that all drainage structures are correctly installed to prevent sediment from entering streams in other waters and and on the picture picture on the left shows you know a good water bar put in and that could be you know across the top of the landing to catch any runoff from a trail or road going out into the landing you can imagine where where something like that would be very helpful to divert water and then managing managing chemical pollutants a new recommendation is a rule is that the current products and other hazardous material shall be stored only outside of forest buffers and shall be removed immediately after completion of logging and obviously you know we want to keep we want to make sure that our our equipment is not leaking fluid things are well maintained and it's not a an active discharge wherever it goes and that we practice good clean landings you know keep our landings clean keep a trash barrel or best thing is just to take it away every day and have a spill kit on landings on every landing really because well no hydraulically to happen and we need to be able to deal with them without you know or in a good manner and get them get remove that stuff as quickly as possible so we're doing pretty good on time I'm gonna see if Kate Kate do you have any any questions yet that came through yes if there's a question here from Patrick and open it up okay Oh am I going to see that cake um I'm sorry I I thought I had opened it up it disappeared behind the window okay let's hear so the question is I recently watched a bit long so bear with me here I personally watched a show on public television Vermont outdoors program involving track trout habitat it focused on dropping and pooling trees into streams for trout cover they had good evidence that this was working and that trout numbers were up in the streams that the timber had been put into the streams Vermont Department of Fish game was involved and was doing the fish surveys my question is does Vermont Forest Park agree with this project how does it relate to the amts and do you foresee Forrester and loggers be able being able to do trout stream restoration work on our logging jobs if landowners wish to improve habitat well that's a that's a good question and that that practice comes up occasionally when I do workshops with loggers and they've heard about that and they they start samuels if they're leavin brush and streams why can't we are why is it such a big deal and and I you know I guess my my answer to that is it's it's it's apples and oranges the material that that fish and wildlife is putting into streams and I think the Forest Service has done a bunch of this on Forest Service property it's it's big stuff it's the bowl of the tree a lot of times and it's to create Eddie's and well and fish habitat where branches and brush really just won't won't do it and I'll it's not to mention the fact that it's scientifically you know they locate that stuff where it's lacking in streams so they're there they have a baseline of what's natural and what's beneficial to fish and if they see a reach of a stream that doesn't have that then they can implement a plan to do install it and they they go through great lengths of choosing the right trees and anchoring it in a way and turning it so that the currents hit it just right so it's very deliberate and very scientifically done and and in our department fish for some parks totally supports it because it is it is done in a manner that that you know it has good by nth by science i can either rip biologists and river engineers that are looking at this and other people who know it's not just leaving you know when I bloggers talk about what you leave in the tops that's the stuff that can cause the chemical makeup of water to change because it's that you know the leaves and the small stuff that that decay quickly and add nutrients and thanks to the stream that changed the chemical makeup so like I said it's apples and oranges and I think you know where that is necessary and where it's proven that there isn't enough down woody material and and or more fish habitat I guess in in streams I would support doing it more but again it's not just a willy nilly kind of thing it's very exact very scientifically laid out and deliberate so I that answers the question great thanks David and there was a note as well from a participant in Maine saying that they had a similar program and just a reminder that trees have to be anchored and angled correctly so sounds like there's there's a lot of sciences yeah yeah there is a lot of science and and and they you know that's a it's an expensive thing because it's it's it's not done with machinery it's all done by by hand and geyser and gals are out there cut the trees down with chainsaws and using grip poised to pull in the place and they're there anchoring it into the banks like resentments and and its really it's a lot of work it's not it really doesn't compare to simply relaxing our our standards for leaving logging debris and streams it's just not the same small acts get a sniff at if you don't mind me one more question there's a couple of questions around a temporary structure timelines your job lasts longer than that is there any is there a permit required or well that's a good question because you know that's a that's a different quite a different standard than we've had and and one of the reasons why it's 18 months of bridges and culverts and 12 months for pulled towards and brushed in fords is that if we have a culvert or a bridge that's that's free flow for the channel there it can stay in longer without having having you know a direct impact where we want to get those those pulled towards out as quick as possible so if you had a if you had a temporary bridge expand the channel and and you really were on from Joppa back to top of bank and.and you had good confidence that that was neat with sufficient but you wanted to leave in longer and I can't say how much longer is okay and how much too is too long but you would need to my recommendation and this this is new to us too as far as the enforcement aspect of it but Mike my suggestion to you is called the amt Forester haven't come out and take a look at it and come up with a plan and your plan can't be we're not done we need to leave it in its it we would hope it would be well we're going to be done in another two months we're going to be done as soon as this the conditions allow and I'll let you know when we pull it there's got to be a plan there's got to be some communication about when that's going to be pulled because they all what it comes down to is is the sizing chart does not meet a queue of much more than you know not as River engineer but I would say somewhere between two and ten years so the likelihood that the longer it's in the likelihood that it's it's going to see that flow that's bigger than what it can handle its greater and greater and greater so that's why they're temporary and that's why they need to be removed so I would say if you know hopefully this is a good enough answer but if you have something that's in seems to be working and you're just not quite done go have your auntie force to come and look at it if you know worst-case scenario is you it's winter logging only in this location and you have a pull cord or something that's already been in for a year and you're not going to use until the next winter yeah maybe you should pull it out and put it back in next fall that's not that big a deal in most cases but if it's a bridge or a cold asset culvert that that may be a little bit different situation but I'd say for now we're going to try to deal with it on a case-by-case basis with our auntie foresters and hopefully I don't get in trouble for for volunteer and their time to go and look at those sorts of things but that would be my answer great thanks and we do have a few more questions but I also recognize this yeah let me look I think I think I can I can get through the rest of slides in in not too long and then we'll have time for the rest of the questions at the end sound agree okay okay so so now I'm going to talk about samt monitoring and enforcement program and what you know what constitutes an EMP water quality violation and then a little bit more information so the empties are not correctly implemented and a discharge occurs there's a violation of the MPs and and therefore water quality violation and it's usually the discharge that is the that is the violation that when we go to enforcement that's what's cited the discharge rule if no discharge occurs a lot of our land our cannot be fined a prosecutor for not implementing the MPs and it's what that means is the discharge is is the point at which the penalty or the violation starts so so easily what we're saying is and if you don't have the a.m pees in and you have a discharge and it's too you know it's pretty obvious that you're not watching out for proper protecting water quality properly and and you're you're guilty of not following a MPs if you if you do put the EMPs in correctly and follow all the rules do your best at implementing them that's your best chance of preventing a discharge and and therefore a violation and if if there were a violation it's probably going to be because of a storm event or something like that out of your control at least it shows a commitment to protecting the water resource so so basically you know implement the empties properly and and that's that's your best way to protect from a discharge and to be in in accordance with the with the amt rule and as far as responsibility goes the landowner and lager are both responsible and sometimes a lot of times the landowner will in the contract put the amt responsibility onto the logger through the contract and I think that's a good situation because then then the landowner who's not typically not the person who knows about the a.m teens and has the means to implement them they shouldn't be it's harder for them to do that especially when the loggers went out doing the work so but both can be in trouble so the speaks are not implementing and pieces they're both they're both of their responsibilities and of course after logging is done so Lando's are landowners responsibility for maintaining a mp's after locking so if they have a log of that's just closed out and the landowner goes out with this tractor and starts running up the roads and knocking down the water bars and water gets in you know we have a discharge from that it's it's not the loggers responsibility he put the water bars in it's the landowner for knocking them down and not being careful and you know there's other reasons that we have the MPS and we try to be very professional and be good stewards because there's a public image out there that that loggers and foresters have and land managers and and careless vlogging practice creates reluctant landowners and it and it gives us all kind of a black eye when we see things like this it's much better to see something like this that shows that we're you know we're following good practices where we're taking care of the resource and where we're not just you know making a mess and so the way the monitoring and enforcement program works we have an MoU with with the Department of Environmental Conservation and the amt foresters role and that is technical assistance so we go out and look at complaints we make recommendations based on the mp's that's argue no or foresters we're trained in t is sort of thing and when it comes to getting the job you know getting compliance that's what we're after is compliance if we don't get compliance then we have the compliance and enforcement division which can come in and proceed with a penalty and you get to get to work ultimately all all the work gets done one way or another even when the loggers don't do it the landowners responsible to do it and most cases ninety-nine percent of the time or say maybe is 99 but a lot of the time more than ninety percent of the time most cases are one or two site visits with recommendations being implemented and the case is closed you know sometimes it takes more than one visit but a very small percentage of cases are referred to enforcement one to two per year on average and this is a flowchart of how how when the complaint comes in the AAP florastor does the site visit and then there's a discharge or not a discharge and and then if there is a discharge or if there's a likelihood for it to start it doesn't have to be an actual discharge oh and obviously there's different degrees of discharge if you look at one little speck of dirt getting into the stream technically that's a discharge but we know we we make recommendations and peas are prescribed and and we make us follow up site visit compliance the case is closed once in a while it may be more than one site visit back but we try we try to work with loggers to try to build a relationship we try to educate education is a huge part of it and then if in the end we don't have compliance or the violation is so egregious that we think it's it meets the threshold for talking to enforcement then the environment enforcement officers brought in and and it goes from there historically the slide shows on the last well from 2005 2014 where the discharges have occurred you can see mostly crossings as you can imagine you know that's the biggest connection with logging and water is the crossings and then landings and skid trails I'm sorry not landing stream buffer I make that mistake lot those two colors but the stream buffer again it's the closest connection with the stream and the logging and then skid trails kind of wind their way through do all of that so that's what we focus on with our education and as you'll see we have you know an initiative to try to deal just with that stream crossings and skid trails historically our number of reported cases and investigated cases has declined since 2005 and so has our number of cases with a discharge which is good you know that's what we want to see some of these spikes and drops are weather-related but as a whole you know the trend is down and then we have a what we call a technical assistance call which is not a complaint it's it's when a logger Forester called us up called the MP Forester and says I have a crossing on such-and-such your property and we're not sure exactly the best method of crossing the stream or the skid trail that has an issue in it related to some type of water resour or something and they want assistance they want to basically get our advice before they start and and and do the best job they can based on you know our experience and and so that's a technical assistance we keep track of those and those have gone up significantly in the last 10 years or 2,000 52 2014 so that tells us that people are aware the program they know that there's auntie foresters out there that are helpful and in their ideas matter and they and and it's making a difference I think so and that initiative where we're trying to make a difference on stream crossings as far as discharges and skid trails is the portable scanner bridge initiative which is basically we have a rental program where you can call up all the listed down below here are the two NRCS foresters emily potter and hannah dallas won in the north and one of themselves and the way the program works is you can call up the nrcs forest your own they'll put you in touch with there's a couple other players involved but the NRC Natural Resource Conservation districts actually manage the bridges and owned the bridges and and the paperwork for the loan or the rental is done through the NRC d and their sites that that house the bridge is typically a la Garrett or a concentration yard or some sawmills have them and so the NRC d sets that up they take the hundred dollars a month fee and they fill out paperwork and then an RCS forrester one part of the program is not only to give folks bridges but also to to make sure that they're used properly and to give guidance and education to those loggers who are using those bridges so that one there implement there they're installed properly there and then to their use they know how do you know he's bridged pretty easy drive across it but there's little nuances of bumper logs and and you know brushing a quarter rowing up to the bridge to keep the stream banks stable so there's a lot of little things that we've learned along the way how to move them around how to put them in that sort of thing that we can share that with with the loggers and we have a really good little booklet pamphlet on best management practices for skidder bridges better that was was created by the watershed for Shuba watershed program and available to folks to take those bridges so it includes the site visit the nrcs forester it goes out and look at the bridges and and then obviously we need to get the bridges back we're figuring out a way to to try to make this program easier make the communication better and and and replace those bridges too because as we know those bridges get beat up they don't last forever and we've gotta replace them periodically and and that's a challenge to confine the funding for that and to you know sometimes they're done in leak workshops or with other workshops but so we're working actively to keep that program alive and and and supply bridges to people most logging contractors nowadays I think would rather have their own bridge and rent one be just because it's easier you have it when you need it and you know we certainly support loggers getting their own we have on our website we have the plans for building one the two different sizes so that's a that's an important initiative that we have out there and it makes a big difference based on what we've seen with crossings and skid trails and that sort of thing it helps and then some some other supporting information that that I have here of course we have the voluntary harvesting guidelines for landowners in Vermont just create completed in 2015 there's a couple wetlands publication one has been around the little book has been around for 20 years probably could use a few revisions but the logging activities and wetlands was created by the wetlands folks I think that was 2015 as well and that is a little more specific about about how you can work in wetlands silviculture isn't allowed to use in wetlands but then things have to be followed so that document covers a little bit more on what that means and then we have the timber harvesting summary of laws and regulations which is very helpful to navigate through the different things that you're required to do in Vermont in terms of harvesting and then there's that little best practices for portable scooter bridges that I talked about earlier so and then real quickly arriving in 2017 the next a MP manual which will replace the yellow the orange book and the new and it's under development we've got of course we've got the new rule now in October that was finalized and this the new auntie man will have enhanced supportive information and technical guidance it will have better diagrams and pictures and be more yeah a little bit allowed more up-to-date information in it than the old orange book more on planning for water quality protection like I talked about earlier and and it it will have more on logging in Vermont wetlands and managing hazardous materials if the old book didn't have and of course it'll have the definitions which are already in the rules but so look for that we're working on that as as quickly as we can it's a big it's a big process just because the design and and printing of that is you know we don't want to make a thousand copies and have it be wrong so I one told me no one no one will remember if it was late but everybody will remember if it's wrong so we're working on that as quickly as we can and that will again that will be another huge resource for for for loggers foresters so with that I'll open it up for questions if we have if we have time thank you yeah there's a few more minutes left and and there's quite a few questions so unfortunately folks I'm going to have to prioritize somebody there were quite a few questions that came in around non-conformance and I'll just sort of try to lump them maybe into one large question okay after a visit with the state Forester who identifies non-conformance of an AFP is there a grace period for mediation before enforcement is notified or the landowners held responsible there and then sort of a follow-up question for that if you could talk a little bit about how discharge is assessed I'd be great okay so in terms of a grace period we went when a complaint comes in the MP Forrester as quickly as they can respond gets more information we get out to the site hopefully with the logger and Forester if there's a forester involved sometimes the landowners they're oftentimes not it's the logger that we're working with we have to have permission from the landowner but and and then the logger is you know recommendations are made and we usually follow that up with with that in writing so that they know exactly what they need to do and the most important thing is a timeline and so I can see your question about a grace period so we you know based on the how big the discharge is how immediate the concerns are what the weather is like what the site is like we we try to base that timeline on on being practical and being but being being firm that we need to fix the bra that's the number one thing we need to fix the problem so if we have good cooperation and the logger can say yes I can do this in in two days or a week uh that's that's usually what we're looking for is if they're having it on and you know my machine is too far away and I can't get it here and they're coming up with all sorts of excuses that that doesn't help their case so to speak and then when it comes to assessing yeah so to finish that thought you know the grace period essentially is is is how quickly can you fix it and then depending on you know we have we have other factors that we look at two we have a we do keep an auntie database which which is tells us how many times we've been out to see longer X on logging jobs and what severity what their history is so to speak with the amt program and that plays into it as well and that and we you know so that keeps track of loggers and foresters and landowners and in that process and so you know we if we go out and the first time we set up a schedule things get half things get taken care of oftentimes that's it it's not that big a deal so to speak we hope for we go for education we hope that the next time that there isn't a next time and that we don't want to keep seeing the same thing over and over and over and we realized suddenly it's well they're not really trying they're just trying they're just hoping they don't get caught that's a difference so and as far as the determining the severity of of the the violation we're looking at obviously how much soil has is gone how long it was was happening you know things like how easy was it to fix it how what thought process they went in in locating that site in all of those the things that went into what made that go bad plays into it and and then we kind of go in there too hard to not have a specific site to look at it's hard to point out the things that that to explain it but we look at a lot of things together to come up with how bad it is and starting with first thing is is how much how much of a discharge there was a lot of times it's hard to tell but if you know that boy this looks like it's been here a while and it goes 200 feet up the trail and starts there and it ends up in the brook you know that's a significant discharge so I just say a lot of things go into that and we have lots of experience to kind of base that on and what we've seen in the past so it happens pretty it's not that hard once you've seen a few of them hold that suitable answer I know I have an T forces listening so go ahead that makes sense k hello what happened sorry Dave I is that I realized I had been on me so thank you so ever for answering those questions and there are quite a few other questions listed here but I realized that it is were we're at ten-thirty or a little past so you know I don't know if you want to address any more questions or I'm happy to address more quick more questions that I don't I think that's a that's a very important part of this and I guess I kind of wish i had left more time for it and I'm glad we did the questions before but I wanted to cover what I what I did so if we can take more questions that happy to do it okay before I throw any more questions your way it just so it's because I recognize it some folks may need to sign off I just wanted to put out a couple of quick reminders and just let people know David mentioned that their handouts available as part of this webinar if I wanted to direct people to this side panel if you haven't found it already there's should be a box that says handouts and in that you click on that there are two pdfs that are listed there one is on the the new am p adopted rules and the second one is a PDF around the resources for the webinar Dave took some time to put together a bunch of different links to the resources that he provided on the webinar today so please take a few minutes before you sign off to download those two documents again they can be found under handouts in the side panel also just a quick reminder for folks to complete the survey at the end of the webinar today that's how we'll know that you're interested in getting continuing education credits and then lastly just a quick plug for our next webinar the series continues on februari second with a webinar where we'll be going back to our civic cultural miniseries and we'll be talking about exploring civic cultural strategies around oak so we'll be joined by Mark Ashton who's I believe using with the Yale School of Forestry so there will be registration information online available on the website by the end of today so go ahead and register for that that upcoming workshops youzhny webinar if you're interested and again they at the end of the webinar today if you're looking for continuing education credits please complete the survey that survey should just pop up when you exit webinar okay so Dave just going back to some of the questions here there's a couple of questions around the difference between perennial and intermittent streams can you talk a little bit about hide finest okay the the definitions are helpful in that so so basically the biggest difference is perennial streams have a continuous flow and that doesn't mean that in years like last summer some perennial streams aren't going to dry up but most of the time they keep their flow all summer long and intermittent streams it does have a well-defined channel evidence of sediment transport but regularly experience periodic and interruption of surface flow throughout its length length and and for perennial streams you can have a perennial stream that go can go underground and then come back up periods of dry weather so it doesn't have to be constant flow but like I said it's going to be most of the time and another another kind of a benchmark is this half square mile walk EDD sighs I wouldn't say that's that's the only thing we look at it's not the only thing we look at but that's a place to start if you have a quarter you know point 25 square mile stream it's likely that it's that it's not a perennial stream if you have a one that's much a lot larger than a half square miles 11 likely you do so you know that that's a tough one but but at least you know we're trying to define them we're trying to make it a little more clear and if you sorry g ahead cake yes a rose can say just to clarify to I think there's sort of a follow up on that is about the standards between the two I don't know if that is something that you can address or so and it's especially around buffer management okay the buffer is when we talk about streams in the MPS we're talking about both intermittent and perennial streams so where there is no differentiation in buffering of the two but when it gets down to be less than an intermittent stream that's when I guess when you're when you're looking at well do I need to buffer it or not so deck that's where it gets tricky and honestly out in the field you know we have to use the intermittent stream defined channel may not have water in it but it's got a gravelly bottom sediment transport it's got a defined channel and then eventually you can go up up up the drainage it's if that's going to stop and and that's where that intermittent stream in my opinion would stop and we all know there's cases where it's hard to put a finger on where that is but it does not include drainage ditches and yeah that's a tough one that there's some judgment in there for sure but but as far as the the buffering of between perennial and intermittent it includes both okay exactly yeah great thank you how about approaches to stream crossing shall be kept below ten percent for what distance also what if there is a less than ten percent slope um what what distance I'm not sure what the I'm not sure exactly what that question is it must be referring to that are stable and approaches are ten percent grade or less I would say I would there isn't really a distance distance mentioned in the ANP but you know my estimation that distance should be at least 25 feet because because that's where we have um that last water bar is that 25 feet away from the stream so if we can if we can put a water bar good water bar 25 feet it's less important what the slope is f is farther away from the stream because we've caught it with that water bar that makes any sense and then one from that water bar to the stream if we can keep that below ten percent then work then we're not at risk of a lot of transport on that section of trail so so my answer is 25 feet okay side so there's a few more questions here here one around the seasonal limitations to pull forward yeah if not can they is there some seasonal limitation and if not can they be left up for a year well there is a well for strictly pulled forwards there is not a seasonal limitation there's a there's a condition limitation where the streams should be hard bottom and stable banks it should be just a mushy flat section of extreme channel so you need to have a good define stream channel and with with good hard banks in a hard bottom you put those poles in and you can travel that without distorting the banks and causing causing rutting and that sort of thing my recommendation and what a lot of people are doing now are putting installing what winter turned as vented forwards or vented pulled towards where one of those poles is replaced by a steel pipe or a culvert and and that allows the water to work to flow through there more freely and not have to fight its way around the logs and employ higher flow situations you don't have the water coming up as high and so a vented Ford it you and the other thing is you don't have to size that vent to the to the table to in my opinion because it's not a buried culvert it's not a covert installation it's temporary but it's really a pulled forward it's a it's a it's better than a pull toward not as good as a as a full oversized I guess is what I would say there and then and then in brushed in fords in the wintertime which are which are seasonally conditioned only to winter you can vent those as well and that works better because a lot of times that will give the water a place to flow and and the water doesn't spread out as much and and when water spreads out in the winter and keeps flowing it causes it makes it harder to freeze in so if you have a vented forward you can kind of keep the water in the middle it flows through that pipe and you can freeze in up to that pipe and on both sides of it quicker and easier so that I did I cover the questions with that answer I think they did I think so another question around is there any written rule that states that people must come back and remove fabric silt fences just a comment here about healthy persons using any projects and just wandering around if there any rules around that that that's a good that's an excellent question because to my not to my knowledge there isn't any requirement to go back and remove silt fence and then the other question is how long do you have to maintain it for I think that Mike my answer would be maintained it until the site is stabilized hopefully that areas also may be seated and mulched because it's at risk of being unstable and then if you go back and the seat and mulch is there then you can take that silt fence down without worry of another discharge but a lot of times the silt fence doesn't get taken down and it's it doesn't look great a lot of times it gets knocked down after a few number of years but the goal is to stabilize that that site and silt fence can can can catch the sediment until hopefully what's causing that sediment to move is stabilizing there and then there's no more movement of sediment and you can take the silt fence out and it won't continue so short answer I there's no requirement of time that that needs to be get out and my little addition to that question would be how long do you have to maintain it and i would say until that site is stabilized which shouldn't be more than you know a season or two at the most if it's if it's seated and mulched so okay great another question here around we talked about intermittent and dry mountain streams and purses perennial streams can you talk a little about the practice of using crushed stone Fords yeah I i I've seen crushed stone Ford's on on more recreational trails I apps we're starting to see them as a practice in NRCS we're in the right situation where those streams are again solid and you can't have this stuff disappearing into the muck where those crushed stones Ford's will support the weight better without you know letting the the tires sink or knock the bank down or cause a change in the shape of the stream channel but I think a lot of it is based on the you know it's a good place for a Ford anyways and the stone is really just replacing the natural material which may not be a large enough size to be as rugged or be as armored it just adds to that armoring and adds to the fact that you know it's going to support the weight better in terms of logging I think that you'd really have to limit their logging there to frozen ground where you can freeze that in and and not disturb it I think if you were there logging in the summer you would you would drag dig that stuff up unless you were 22 maybe cover it with a skidder bridge panel or something like that so I you know most of my experience with that isn't is on recreation trails or again in that NRCS practice but if it's a good place for afford that stuff will work it will it will improve it and you know it's a little expensive to do because you got to get that material out there but it does work I think there are limitations to to using it strictly for logging especially in the summertime if that helps sure and then just to follow up on that is this participants Oh am I correct in that an at-grade Ford will allow the Skinner and skidded logs to travel through the water of a stream yes it will and again that that's a situation where you have to have ledge or you have to have really bony hard-packed compacted stream banks for that to not have a discharge and a lot of times that's that's you know winter helps too we had a Ford in roxbury State Forest where it was literally a Ledge waterfall on the skid trail and and we didn't need to put in a crossing because we just basically went across the ledge and we did it in winter too but there was no there was no loose soil there was no it was also oil it was just ledge so that was a inaccurate Ford that worked really well you could actually see from years ago where they had taken bulldozers across that forward and you could actually see the cleat marks the where that trip after trip they made marks net rock and and it was rugged enough for that you know who knows how long ago 40 50 60 years ago so yeah but you do end up going right through the water on an at-grade forward just a few more questions for you here David I'm deaf there's one that John asked them it's around a particular situation but I think he's interested in a possum first and along the stream and curious what a partial cut has been done and they are more susceptible to ending up in the streams are their recommendations for this type of situation and then the kind of the follow up to that was is a log or a landowner liable for the results of a partial cut in this situation that good question that's a that's a complicated complicated question and it's talking about silviculture as much as it is water quality so i think i think that there you know you'd have to make a decision on your on your on your overall goals there of what what you're really looking for are you trying to have partial cut involves them i can understand why you're where your concern about that is and then if you have all that stuff falling apart and end up across the stream then then is that you've lost your trees and you've got it in the stream so you know I think I would it's hard to it's hard to pinpoint an answer for that right now I think that in in in my opinion I would rather see that Bufferin left intact and let nature kind of take its course again if we if we're logging honest and there's a stream and there's a buffer and there's natural debris that lands across the stream we don't have to remove that that's not that's natural that's part of you know the regular biological processes and and the ecosystem that's happening out there if we start you know if we start cutting some and then the rest of all is in well is it our pup is it our fault there is it nature still my sense is that we would just leave the buffer intact and let kind of nature take its course obviously there's other instance that you know other concerns in a stand where you may have some disease you might have some some you know other wildlife habitat or other things but you know not knowing that my off-the-cuff answer would be well it in my opinion I'd leave that buffer like just to do with it what it's going to do and maybe maybe not cut it anything in there and let it give it a better chance of standing up again I don't know the degree of tree helps and that sort of thing in that situation so okay great thanks even if you don't mind there's looks like there's three more questions and I think they're they seem simple to me but I could be wrong yes the federal lands are they required to follow state and peace absolutely yes okay and if there's a MP in place and a discharge occurs is that a violation well there's a when an aunty is in place there's a presumptive you know compliance of the MP rules so there would have to be an additional water quality sampling gun to prove a discharge which you know it's not a you know it could happen it hasn't happened to this point and so I wouldn't say you know it's definitely not all you have to do is put in the a.m PS and it doesn't matter what happens in the stream that's not the case we need to do we need to implement the mp's properly you can do our best to to protect water quality and and hopefully if there is a discharge beyond that it's going to be outside of the control of the landowner a storm event or something like that and it's going to be reasonable any reasonable person would say you know this is this sort of thing happens this is this is not caused by negligence and and and there's not going to be a inquiry so to speak but you know I can't every case is different i can't guarantee that but i would say your best bet is to implement the a.m PS keep in mind that you know whenever we're working around strains or you know that we can't we can't ignore the EPA laws and the water quality laws we have to prevent discharges so beyond that you know it is still a discharge we need to keep that in mind but your best bet your safest bet and you're in your most protection is by implementing the MPS okay great that's credible question i preciate you fielding all these questions I know that all know prod know this that I'm happy to it happy today one last one just around snow bridges in deep sigh auditions are they allowed today there they work I mean I've seen them I've used them on my own land and not so much stream crossings but but innocence is where you can fill anything with snow any of the right conditions you can go right across it I would say that if if you have that much snow and you can prevent you know and you can be sure that you're not disturbing anything and I would say they're allowed I would be very cautious that you you only use them when when you have the right conditions that's the thing where you know it could be here today and gone tomorrow and and you got to realize that when it's gone you got to stop because you don't have anything else under there I guess a better situation would be to put those poles or that brush or something in underneath the snow so that if the conditions disappeared you could still use that crossing and still be sure that you can get the wood out without having to all of a sudden now put the crossing in but put a different type of crossing in so but if you're only going for a little bit and you have confidence that snow is going to stay you know it's a risk that you're going to take because you're you're you're basically there's very unlikely that you're going to have a discharge when you have that much snow and you're not even touching the ground at least in the picture I have it in my mind but I would say your best bet is to put the poles in first and then cover it with snow that way you're covered both you know over covered so that makes sense feel great well good that's why we got through am also thank you that's also my fav one yeah preciate you taking and fielding all those questions it up yeah it seems like there is a lot of interest out there and appreciate your efforts and trying to catch me Lily when we have the ANP manual completed we will be having I i'm going to say don't hold me to this but a meeting in the south and a meeting in the north where we'll invite folks and will well it will be an in-person kind of thing and we'll hand out the books and we'll kind of roll out the manual at that point so stay tuned but you know take take the information you have and and let me know if there's any questions you can also contact any of the MP foresters in the districts and best of luck to you great thank you so much they appreciate your time today and again just write up your folks please go ahead and complete that survey at the end of the webinar today and I hope you'll consider joining us on thursday februari second for the next webinar focused on oak so thank you get everybody have a great day out there and take care thank you