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we did issue some very strong statements about this legislation they were always along the lines of it's very burdensome and we want you to fix and reduce the burden we never said we hereby oppose the bill and everyone that clear but at the champion Congress do that well since we're not members of the Chamber of Commerce may speak for themselves for independent and a lot of people were exercising their rights under the First Amendment during the pendency of this bill my broth what a lot of complaints about that but in any case that the question was whether whether there's a unique burden and I think in working with my colleagues in the financial services industry who prefer to work behind the scenes we we good work prefer to work behind scenes and sometimes that was to our benefit and sometimes toward our detriment but in any case I think we had some good success but I think our interests were really identical because our members issue credit cards and the primary burden on the credit card companies really is at the Visa and MasterCard level because it's really up to them to process the pain is regardless of whether the cards issued by bank of america or whether it's you know the first national bank or podunk or wherever and in terms of checking and these electronic transactions the process is at the small venison and the large banks are pretty similar everybody had you have to automate these systems of course the electronic systems are by definition automated and they it again run through through systems that are really outside the bank and I don't think a big bank would have any easier time going through individual checks to see if someone was foolish enough to write payable to Joe's illegal internet gambling site no no banks small or large could possibly do that it's just just beyond comprehension so I don't think there's any any particular difference between small banks I think we may have presented a little more sympathetic case congressman good lad was was good enough to not only be listener witnesses testimony at the House Judiciary Committee to come back and address are our concern that then worked with us on our concerns and of course mr. leash lon you know a longtime supporter of community banks Iowa is probably get more community banks for first we're counting that than anybody else so we had good support and politically set pendant that's a little more effective Bank of America comes in you don't get committee file ends at B of A when they come in and ask yourself no matter how a meritorious ok anybody has questions that I think this like not where that's that's the one for people that have questions does anybody have anything at this particular moment here if you can speak loud enough I make sure we run smitten actually we knew I'd be downloaded on iTunes well just in full disclosure for my solo poker players Alliance and and your boss has been great we were able to sit down and meet with him and we hurt our views and we really appreciate the opportunity to meet with competition we've been very vocal and opposing this legislation looking for regulation who said of prohibition and a couple of issues that you raised it's a problem with internet gambling money laundering problem gambling etc the issues that were raised by the mom was that that the third party banks are going to kind of come out of spring up over overseas with people in front of them when you do that vote that create a larger problem for money laundering then what is currently going on through going through US banks or us debits or if we actually regulate the system and have a more transparent or US banks were actively engage and it was more as an oh I was pretty stunned to hear the suggestion somehow these third-party payment systems Morgan vision for our members bill is they were absolutely clear that you're stepping away and have been questioned absolutely our attempt we believe absolutely effective the girl that the credit card company in a bank will be under the regulations of the people survive every we hope we both July 13 there will be forced to identify and block a restricted trance actually to any internet casino or facilitator Internet that would include the third party payment system is fun funny moments we always do this process use the example of mental and teller is an offshore payment site that derives proximately very much of all heart eighty percent of their revenue and twenty percent it's just what we get the net Tyler to continue to use to continue to have the US customers aren't we envisioned that what that tell it would likely have to do is essentially create an Aunt Eller one and that teller to that teller Walton would be used for internet gambling and then tell her to for everything else and that teller one would be would be blah the US a u.s. senator US bank healthy block directing that other one but not intelligible as you continue to buy one hour to be or whatever else through net Teletoon but the perp certainly the admission reveals the Federals are the Treasury when they prescribe regulations include is there this one's from I'll also mentioned that the pornography a lot of that comes from that teller you mentioned also that this law had moral underpinnings supposedly wasn't justification for prohibiting rather than regulating gambling but regulating grounds as pornography simply has the same potential to ruin families and certainly feel like that was beyond the scope of what we were trying to do that was never intend to deal with pornography of anyone but then it's a really good question where do you draw the line can you and that gets to a question that we dealt with a lot through this process people a lot of people suggested that the Internet is just too big you'll never be able it will never be able to prevent some internet casino from popping up and never be able and I would suggest that that's not necessarily taste I don't I think the problem here is really one where you have to make a choice if you're able to regularly that means you also still have to be able to block those other casinos that aren't regular so you have to have a mechanism to prevent trans actually the go to those casinos that are somehow going to be outside the scope wall and if you're going to regulate that means all of the interesting this half-term system behind estate is if the only way that we the jurisdiction of the US stuff justice so you have these casinos a CO MGM grand and harrah's operating a casino an Internet to see in the United States and its regulated problem gamblers is don't allow credit card popups on the website to come up after you maxed out your credit card all those but when you do about the bodog that exists it had vote on this just an example that exists offshore that allows 16 year old to somehow get online that their parent's credit cards how do you do so you have to have one you have to have a mechanism that blocks out these transactions to some so I would guess i would suggest the issue you're you're asking that isn't one really before this moment we don't change with the law is the law is silly the problem was the wall wasn't being enforced and so how do you enforce the law we had to cut off you couldn't do it through Justice Department you couldn't do it through injunctive remedies see how they form of different methods and we came up with a system to cut off the money when I deal with the regulations cut off the pipeline you're going to have to do it something if you're going to regulate it allows some online casinos to exist I just if you have my application to prevent some other casinos rigged system as we just want the mechanism to prevent all internet business and someone down the road just early from certain or something something down the road might try to do something I don't think that's a judgment call to make but they're still going against this department like I'd like to put a similar question to the other two panelists and that it's a question of infirmity enforcement sure you could possibly there's a way to different near meaty Ares but as we saw from the immediate effect of the bill there were some sites that boss dramatic mountain market share or TVs stock fell because of the bill's passage and it is that not a good result in the sense that this wasn't illegal activity raised a question of course these companies had prospectus has had said and in month on London's a majority of our our profits on the United States where it is illegal it isn't that a good result in incidents sufficient to justify sort of enforcement perspective of the drafters statue that mr. that would be the case at least initially but I think there still is a big problem with not so much the net because can be bought with the patient's come down until her the big target we all know about that how about the next metzeler next company that's smaller it's private it's Underground and there I still haven't in my mind satisfactory answer how are you going to prescribe you know several organizations so the fact here is a detective prohibitions getting consequences to that you try right effective now in this day that will soon arise and responsive feel very large market i justit just at one point in time period gamblers actually not been found to be illegal under United States law that interpretation of Department of Justice actually in 2001 in remaster hard international museum expressly found through my opinion quite solid legal reason the only internet boards campaigns for spending fuel for a company interview and that internet poker in those types of games are not possible every case is certainly reasonable is not no one that's been courted by a lot of problems we have you sure we sure don't want to have to decide bank what's legal the illegal in terms of internet gambling that's way beyond our expertise i think the the immediate effect or enforcement be a publicity that's as some publicly traded companies that just didn't want to be seen to be attempting to circumvent US law and so they they shut down our concern really looking if every internet gambling site went out of business they finally saw the light to realize how powerful witch their activity was then be fine with us it's certainly not an activity our bankers you courage among their customers our only concern really is that the payment system the check and electronic system just isn't configured and really can't in a practical sense be configured to effectively track and want these transactions it sounds easy it's easy to say those words but oh well you know they can just track a lot but it just doesn't just can't handle and so if there's some other way that this effective either moral suasion publicity or you just scared the hell out of people best time start with us we were cautioned frankly we were urged by the incoming chairman of the House Financial Services Committee don't go on with this bill because you're going to be the you're going to be the enforcement that monkey is going to be on your and we did not oppose the bill usually a good idea to take mr. price advice but in this case we did not I think we can I think we can live with the bill is it because it handout and whether it whether it's effective or not we can't judge we're not going to draw a roadmap for people from one applauded try to try to get around it we just don't want to burden payment system we want people to be able to make those payments they can pay their electric bill by the reason and all the rest of things that have to go on through the payment system that's that's our interest that's the beginning of our interest in the end of our in this particular legislate there any other other questions out there I mean how are we looking on time I'm a first-year lost in here having to be a member of the poker player supplies let's see there I my question is what's the next step will the groups that are behind this bill whether it's genuinely effective in stemming internet gambling or whether it ends up being rather toothless reconquered both sides mean will the groups are behind this be satisfied in the moral victory of getting a bill passed or is there is there going to be an attempt to maybe bring enforcement down the level of people are actually playing is there is there going to be a effort for the banks to maybe put restrictions on people's accounts who are exercising or were making these transactions if they're having trouble determining where these transactions are going just curious about what the next steps otay there is absolutely no appetite no interest from any member of kind of other or a couple of members times the big vast vast overwhelming majority of members of Congress no interest in going individuals so should rest easy that the government's not going after you if you aggressively try to evade the law get a follow-up ensure boy I'm not saying I can't rest easy some people can't recipes in them because I'm concerns are currently net talent for example is a very reliable and safe and you know payment service so i'm told you no major poker websites i advertised on TV they pay out you know they pay out what people are owed people depend on there you know depend on their you know their honesty and in so there's a concern that you know well there's mettler one at far too well maybe those won't work coming year your example at that time that till it's going to deal with this presumes that net teller is going to want to comply with you now if they start making hundreds of variations that the banks can't track it just opens it up for fraud if other people step in that teller steps out of the industry they may happy is trusted you know the websites now that are overseas they have protections you know you can't you can't deposit the whole lot of money if you've lost a bunch recently they do these things voluntarily and if they were in the country regulated you know they can be asked anymore but by driving us underground you know players have not rest easy you know it probably will has heard some people from playing which I guess is is the goal but but many of them don't really think it's such a bad thing to play so I mean but anyway I digress i mean back to the next steps well sylvan except is are the regulations that i've been promulgated and then it's harder pretty exactly what's going to happen I always assume that the bigger pumpkin that guitar did we stop a system transactions from Americans American banks just to be on the safe side and not to be blog that one along yeah I also don't see anybody in prosecuting special federal government the problem is the soulless fulfilling up every reality I'm serious internet gambling divorce else for that matter gambling & state auguries state lawyers or three notorious worst sort of social facts which actually in fact online gambling sites because they have lower over like poker sites and because if you have some level of skill for a lot to actually tend to have higher in addition to the fact that if you are a professional poker player it is a zero-sum game it is your something pretty for any winners it wasit members and other side however if you play for example professional every day consistently and some casual whatever they lose to you what you're doing a dictator looking for yourself while casual players are least a little bit of money my patience o message Oh dad it's possible from reading this particular statute that in fact state lawyer is also a man named four times they might all underneath the certain regulations way the statute pretty as it's a possibility at least just just one next steps another thing is addition to the regulations watch your papers to see whether some prosecutor tries to find tries to get an injunction for some reason outside of the statute against other providers we're hoping that doesn't happen but that's something watched this actually is an interesting one raised questions of hip-hop Aaron waters this is this was central truly we won of no partners no exceptions to betting ana lottery a state lottery offer their aqua lottery tickets legislative history it's excuse that shot on crew it was something I was interested with some a friend prisoners involved in this process this legislative process Memorial Day food and Todd someone asked her up but o we've been working on and you know you can buy a lottery ticket shop how state of a dream with sufficient as long as Virginia driver's license and sending over a tune you wouldn't apply a lottery ticket online Virginia only merchant however something's very precise has to be sufficient age and location Virginia's ball is about age and residence in their location currently to technology you know you can't with certainty marathoners or age or your location what computer you I would be sitting my desk in Martian the wall nest it doesn't know where is and so even though at least at this point the online research i do think as a practical matter you're kind of forecast is correct you probably will see a lot of new larger corporations take significant hits and you'll probably will end up with maybe a number of smaller groups and organizations that are shadowy or they're they're much it's much more difficult to target i think the overall effect of that we've been better to drive out a lot of the casual because who unless you're a very serious loser I it'd be very hard at least my perspective to go inside on my credit card number some unknown organization i've never heard it from the state of estonia or anywhere else so I think that is I think that could be a legitimate and effect on the bill the girls affected if you are determined probably will be able to get access but again it's a question of have you ever caught all the fish eNOS for all its doing advocacy effect will be to do a long certainly with standard it's not fair of course but if you're only going to drive away the casual user the real issue here was a hardcore addicted gambler that will do anything and open up a counting-house of stuff thanks again alright Oh unless there's any other really pressed questions I thought I ended on it my target question okay you you brought the suggestion that there's some games out there that could consider getting the skill rather than a chance and so I just like to put the question view texas holdem poker is your opinion is that is that sufficiently a game of skill or is there some chance at all i would just say unless you have a royal flush it would seem that there's always that you could lose anything and therefore is a chance there's certainly a chance of all in yet include me in any sports act but there's also i do believe that there's quite a bit of smaller ball and there's reason to target some reason people persist in their performance and win over successive periods skill as a post o'clock luck is by definition and we distributed throughout the universe I was all right I think final word for her personal experience I don't play poker but my father was a police court grand rapids michigan and what's throughout a case against poker players sit around somebody's living room on the grounds that it was a game of skill shands the good burghers the Grand Rapids Michigan were not pleased with this decision it was his decision I was I ran track in college every time I got the track is probably the sport where there's the least bit of she has four lovely especially your second see people didn't lose on any given day you're faster you're slower it's it's not a lawless dead call extra time out other factors are computationally and the question of texas holdem this the game's killers in chance is a tricky one but I said people who argue them is a game of skill are going are taking this down in very dark fruit they shouldn't probably want to take it we generally think of sports games of skill all in basketball game skill at all these games are fine not as their game games with their gain some skill are generally considered sport I think the poker players the more they continue to suggest the texas holdem is a game of skill the closer they get to creating a definition of poker as a sport and a sport that all people have said are covered by dimensional system in Iraq texas holdem is going to be included in the wire as well so i think it's a pretty dangerous argument tonight yeah i think the bill is pretty pretty broad terms covering poker in anything else so I mean that's it that's an interesting distinction to a different ball lyssa must have any other pile boards or any final questions we appropriated clothes just as a file aside in case you're interested in reviewing any or looking at it as yourself the particular law were talking about is is public law 109 nationally 47 and the wire act that is referred to here in part is encapsulated in 18 you see today before and I'd also suggest going to do national gambling impact study commission website I think in time 10 and it's fairly easy five and they have a very voluminous report on buying out a lot of details galvin as our moderator and all distinguished analyst from the estimate and thank everyone as I said this will be available online pot swings in a week from our website so thank you for the journal of law and policy problem you