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welcome everybody i'm john hegg and i am the co-director of the most of our armani center for business government uh i am incredibly pleased that uh tonight we have a terrific discussion it um is on the book the dragon the eagle and the private sector public private collaboration in china in the united states it is truly a collaboration in and of itself across harvard stanford and china fudong university so we're incredibly fortunate to have just a terrific group of people here to talk about the book i want to introduce them just very briefly and we have carol karen um eagleston from um stanford uh the freedman spogli institute then we have jack donahue who is at the kennedy school as a faculty member uh richard zuckhauser who is a faculty member at the kennedy school and we're also joined by professor um ija jing from fudan university who is china's leading expert scholar on collaborative governance and will also be speaking with us uh today for as part of the discussion panel it is um also the situation we have larry summers uh speaking virtually and speaking through a video he couldn't make it this evening but we are going to provide he he had a fairly lengthy discussion of the book that we're going to introduce i think everybody knows who larry is he's charles elliott university professor uh former secretary of the treasury and and um uh former president of harvard uh we will start with that and then we will come back to the panel um with that scott if you could play the uh the comments from larry i'm really glad to have this opportunity to reflect on the book by eggleston donahue and zack hauser on collaborative governance in the united states and china i want to say why i think this kind of research is so very important and then raise a few questions about their approach we live in many ways in a world of juxtapositions and oppositions state versus market planning versus the invisible hand china versus uh the united states and yet so much of what actual life is about is what game theorists call positive some uh games what business theorists call coopetition situations involving both cooperation and competition and what practical people call getting along and what this book is ultimately about in its emphasis on collaborative governance is exactly that between the market and control and between the public and the private sector and that has got to be right as a way of thinking about almost any complex problem and yet it is a aspect that is rarely too rarely considered by economists we discuss probably too often how much and too little how there are an infinite number of discussions of the size of the public sector versus the size of uh the market sector but there's too little on how the boundaries should be managed in the wide range of activities that involve both sectors i think of this kind of work as micro micro economics if macroeconomics is concerned with the overall allocation macro was concerned with questions of stabilizing the economy the economy's overall rate of growth and microeconomics is concerned with the allocation of resources and is concerned with the identification and even the correction of market failure collaborative governance is concerned with how particular tasks and particular commitments of resources once decided on are going to be best accomplished ultimately i would rather live in a society that doesn't make precisely the right resource allocation uh choices but that pursues its objectives efficiently and effectively than a society that makes the right resource allocation choices but can't actually do anything with any effectiveness and so i think this kind of thinking about collaborative governance is of profound importance i think this kind of research is very valuable because on the one hand it brings some rigor and some analysis to mushy ideas about uh cooperation in the context of michael dutacus's presidential campaign 30 some years ago i coined the phrase the government the governor doesn't believe in a simple invisible hand and doesn't believe in the heavy hand of government but believes in a helping hand of uh government i think that was not a bad way of evoking a kind of moderate progressive uh philosophy but what i wasn't able to do and frankly what he wasn't able to do was take it much beyond that to distill principles of what kinds of arrangements were likely to work and what kinds of arrangements were less likely to work and so this book brings analysis and rigor to experience and perhaps even more rarely for economists brings experience to analysis and rigor with its thoughtful case studies much of what i've said could have been said about the earlier donahue and zeckhauser work on collaborative governance what i found especially interesting here was the treatment of the united states and china in parallel the uh eagle and uh the uh dragon uh if you uh if you like nowadays we are increasingly seeing the united states and china in terms of polarities what about uh taiwan what about human rights what about democracy what about south china sea what about intellectual property protection what about export uh subsidies but that is probably not the only prism through which we should uh think about warning from the separate experiences of the united states and china people in both countries want to be more prosperous people in both countries want to enjoy better parks people in both countries want to have a functioning infrastructure that enables grandparents to visit their grandchildren and businesses to uh visit their customers and so forth and so by pointing out commonalities of problem and even more by pointing out commonalities of solution albeit middle ground solution reached from opposite goal lines towards the neighborhood of the 50-yard line i think this pain this book makes an important contribution and provides a basis for continuing dialogues between american practitioners american theorists and chinese practitioners and chinese theorists i think the place where a great deal more work is needed is in the set of issues around technology and in the set of issues around the environment what is the right role for government in these sectors where self-evidently there are huge externalities negative externalities in the case of environmental issues positive information externalities in the case of technology issues and yet where it's very clear that government cannot simply direct and uh plan in the united states we're going to have to decide in the next few years whether we think of or in what ways we think of our largest technology companies as vital national champions and in what ways we think of them as quasi-public institutions that can't be governed purely privately for profit those issues as we've seen with the treatment of jack ma in very different ways exist in china as well we have the same kinds of issues with respect to climate change i believed 10 years ago that climate change was immensely difficult politically but not very difficult intellectually if you put a sufficiently high price on carbon then the world would get to the right answer and if you didn't then it wouldn't and so the politics was immensely difficult but that was all that was immensely difficult today i understand i think that environmental problems are shot through with chicken and egg issues will there be electric cars if there are not charging stations will there be charging stations if there are not electric uh cars will the benefits of moore's law like techno technological progress be captured by those who make it possible and if not how can more effort be induced if consumers are not willing to accept higher prices what is the second best alternative to egregious uh losses these issues issues around the shaping channeling and driving of technology are at their very essence matters for collaboration between the private and the public sector this is not all together new what dwight eisenhower called the military industrial complex represented some kinds of collaborative governance but whereas we tend to think positively of collaborative governance military-industrial complex is not a term that makes people feel warm and fuzzy how are we going to think about this in the future i'm also reminded of collaborative governance by my experience in the financial sector many times i have heard senior regulators of financial institutions refer to we meaning the controller the currency regulator and the bank in question i am a member of a group known as the group of 30 that includes academics officials former government officials and senior representatives of financial institutions that sits around in conclave and prepares recommendations which from time to time get a fair amount of attention on questions like debt restructuring or derivatives from a collaborative process is that a highly positive thing or should one view that collaboration with some suspicion because of the ways in which it involves co-optation i don't know the answer to any of these questions with confidence or others that i could formulate but i do have a confident conviction that the ideas explored in this important book will help us find a way forward and i have the confident conviction that whatever may have been true 50 years ago as a consequence of progress widget production is going away of candle making and farming because of our spectacular success increasing productivity the number of people involved in it is shrinking and so if it was right for the economic textbook of 1950 or 1920 or 1890 to treat widget production by canonical firms as the canonical example of what happened in the economy i believe the kinds of collaborations explored in this book are an increasing share of the economy and a generation from now will be a far larger share of the economy in both china and in the united states and that's why the these reflections and the webinar that i'm going to be sorry to miss is so profoundly important thank you very much so as usual we always find larry interesting and provocative we're going to turn it over to i'm going to turn it over to richard zechkauser here in a second just a couple things that i wanted to mention um this is sponsored by the most of our romani center for business and government but it's also sponsored by the shorenstein asia pacific research center at the freeman uh spogli institute at stanford where karen is uh the the deputy director i think many of you probably know richard uh richard is the ramsey professor of political economy at the kennedy school and one of the things i would i i have to uh uh editorialize a little bit uh he was the single most influential professor i've had in my life when i was at the kennedy school and beyond um with that richard um i will turn it over to you to provide an overview of the book well thank you john and i'd also like to thank larry for his incisive comments as they usually are i'm going to give a little bit of an overview of our book i'm going to talk about our goals and purposes and lay bare a bit of the anatomy of the process that we call collaborative government governance the government calls on the private sector to meet what are appropriately thought of as public goals that's what collaborative governance is all about a key element of this process is that there is a sharing of discretion thus the two parties each play a role in determining what is produced and how it is produced and this process is widely used in both china and the united states china and the united states are usually cast as fierce rivals but there are broad areas of society where there is little or no rivalry these areas don't get much attention in the new york times and i suspect they get not as much attention also in the chinese press as an example both nations must provide health education housing and transportation services to their citizens these are not areas of fierce competition indeed for many of them there's not even modest competition i mentioned that a central role in collaborative governance is the sharing of discretion thus we're not talking about contracting at one pole and we're not talking about complete laissez-faire at the opposite pole we're talking about production processes that call on the best capabilities of both sectors and grant each of them an element of control now to be sure though we're going to be talking about similarities there are major differences between china and the united states in the ways they produce the types of goods and services we're discussing so state-owned enterprises play a major role in china they are a scarce beast in the united states in the united states nonprofit enterprises are widely found and are growing rapidly as a second segment of the society they play quite a modest role within china but beyond these major differences there are also major similarities both nations are highly pragmatic they each possess a strong entrepreneurial spirit and they're willing to experiment and innovate indeed i would say that on these grounds there's more similarity between china and the united states than there is between china the united states and uh most of the nations in europe from which many of our citizens originally came um so our book details how uh the dragon and the eagle grapple with the challenge of producing the goods and services to breed to meet a broad array of public goals karen will be describing the subjects that we discuss in our book but let me just remark that there are triumphs in our accounts and there are tragedies and there are many outcomes that are in between and we hope that this volume provides some guidance on how those triumphs can become more common the tragedies more scarce and the in-between outcomes can be improved let me turn to a dramatic current illustration of collaborative government governance so current that it only gets brief mentioned in our book i'm referring to the covet pandemic which drew on two different challenges for the process we're discussing first an effective vaccine was needed lest the catastrophe become a super catastrophe in the united states a quite successful partnership was created between the government offering both regulatory processes and significant financing and its highly innovative pharmaceutical sector moderna a company that's just down the street from the business and government center at harvard had never produced a commercial product but in less than a year it came up with a new vaccine using a previously unproved process that has over 90 percent effectiveness i would say that that was a triumph of collaborative governance the distribution process in the united states has proved much more challenging we have clogged websites clogged delivery facilities and highly inconsistent priorities for receiving the vaccine even within a single jurisdiction i would like to contrast that with an experience that i've recently learned about in china where 10 cent which is a a giant company within china using its ubiquitous wechat application has created an effective system that allows individuals to go online to see where in their general area the vaccine is being distributed and to sign up easily for appointments a triumph for collaborative governance there's probably a lesson here in the way these two outcomes came about and we hope that individuals in both china and the united states will examine the lessons in this volume to see how they can achieve outcomes for their citizens that produce public benefits more effectively so thank you for that thank you for listening and i will now introduce my colleague karen eccleston who as john mentioned is at stanford university karen is a senior fellow there and karen will provide an overview of our book thank you very much richard and thank you all for joining us today i will continue discussing the concepts and applications in the book by giving a tour so as richard mentioned we define many of the concepts in our first section of the book we talk about the context in both countries where those concepts are applied and the main part of the book discusses five different policy domains where we provide detailed historical legacies and case studies or of application of collaborative governance starting with building the railroads that build the nation historically in both countries and the high-speed rail network in china we talk about real estate's intricate tangle of public and private we talk about hosting the olympics and the experience of public and private sector in that endeavor in both countries and final two domains have to do with developing human capital we talk about the truest wealth of nations creating human capital and education and state and market in population health and health care and the final chapter of the book looks at what we call the transparency imperative so we don't have time to go over any of the details of the case studies here i'll just briefly mention what we talk about in the health chapter as richard overviewed we talk about historical development and provide case studies this involves the evolution of pooled financing and how china got to universal health coverage but also the evolution of mixed ownership in china's health sector as professor summers mentioned that both countries have evolved towards a similar outcome in some cases you might consider health care delivery in this way whereas in china was dominated by the government sector there's been an evolution towards more mixed ownership and development of a new category of the private not-for-profit which in the united states is been the dominant category for a century among community hospitals at least we also talk about elder care services and as richard mentioned collaborative governance in response to the pandemic which was just unfolding as we were finishing this book and today to talk to us about some other research um on china we're delighted to have joining us professor ija jing who is a co-author on another chapter in a different book we're delighted he was able to comment on this book and join us from shanghai live today yi judging is the chongjing scholar secret chain chair professor of public management and dean of the institute of global public policy professor of the school of international relations and public affairs at fudon university so professor jing over to you thank you kyran it's my big pleasure to be part of this book launch event i want to first congratulate my three old friends karen richard and jack for producing this brilliant new book this book is the result of their decade now research in the areas of contracting and collaborative governance it is also a new venture into the china u.s comparison i believe it will be read by many and a book review of this book has just been published in our journal i added global public policy and governance you can all get to the website to get a copy of this review for free today's topic collaborative governance is important for both china and the united states and for the whole world i think this is an unavoidable strategy for modern governments to survive in a world that expects the garments to be small but effective to cost nest but provide more the government has to engage external actors to handle complex issues in need of complex capacities i think the book correctly finds that despite many huge differences between the two countries both china and the us are modern and complex societies so the demand for collaborative governance is consistent across the two countries as audience may not be familiar with this channel upon the request from chiron i will say a few points based on my research and my observations first collaborative governance in china has demonstrated strong past dependence it has been incremental in forms and in depth collecting benefits and avoiding risks in cautious ways collaborative governance in china started from economic areas then spread to social and other areas there has been a state-centered approach so that means the patterns are not exactly equal there may be a hierarchical relation and usually the government dominates but sharing of discretion as emphasized in this book does appear it's not just by accident or due to incomplete contracts the government intentionally and purposefully does that to collect a signage of collaboration we can also see a gradual process to institutionalize collaborative governance in china by introducing values like transparency accountability openness and competition another point i want to make is that overall performance of collaborative collaborative governance in china has been positive and it is an ever irreversible trend for china but of course this is learning process and we encountered a lot of failures and setbacks for example in late 1990s there was once a strong israelite in public private partnerships pvp in infrastructures and public utilities but after many huge projects were built by pvp there was a lot of lactic feedback and comments realized that it was not experienced enough i didn't know how to manage market and the collaborative relation there is also a lot of local variation in collaborative governance for example one major initiative in the public sector reform in today's channel is to build digital government and digital government has played a very important role in china's control of the pandemic and in this area chinese garments from central to local of course don't have enough digital capacities but can get them from the market i noticed that local governments like guangdong and shanghai they have very different ways in collaborating with digital companies to build up their digital capacities for example guangdong has a lot of collaboration with transcend to join with alibaba and in that process local governments in china have been learning how to balance their roles multiple roles as partners as director policy makers and also as market regulators the final point i want to make is that collaborative governance in china is not just practice in domestic issues it also it's also been practiced in china's increasing global engagement for example in the area of international development the headquarters of the brooks bank in shanghai and this bank is governed by i mean you know kind of shared way between the five brics countries and what we can also think about aib the asian infrastructure investment bank headquarters in beijing so even if china holds the majority of its shares collaboration has been exercised with other country members and china is also promoting collaboration in belt road initiative and even for the child us relation i think decoupling has never been supported by the chinese government which still expects a kind of win-win situation between china and u.s so to conclude i think this book is a cutting-edge contribution to the research of collaborative governance its values are beyond china and the united states i also think that this book reminds us how important collaborative governance between china and the united states in global affairs is thank you thank you very much and finally before our question and answer i would like to introduce a co-author jack donahue will be talking about transparency feel free to put your questions in the q a and we'll get to those after his remarks jack thank you karen and thank you eja for your comments which are always so so fruitful and illuminating um our last chapter has to do with transparency and it's probably the chapter where we are the most prescriptive we do get into some some prescriptions throughout the book but this is the one where we actually make a call for transparency as an important broad spectrum accountability device now transparency is in the united states it's a bit of a fetish governmental transparency probably more in principle than in practice but it is something that you can get heads nodding and enthusiasm anytime you talk about a transparency in government this is not something that we would expect china to adopt the u.s approach uh in any kind of uh you know of cookie-cutter way transparency is important but transparency in china should be transparency with chinese characteristics if i may but it's crucial uh for china i think to um to embrace the transparency imperative because you know the uh evil twin of collaborative governance is cronyism or corruption and there are lots of countries and lots of policy arenas where collaborative governance could be a truly effective way to increase innovation and efficiency and flexibility but is not available because the populace will be convinced that any interaction between the public and private sectors amounts to sort of collusion on the part of elites against the public interest and therefore the highly promising approach of collaborative governance is simply off the table in those countries and those policy arenas and it would be a shame uh for this to happen in china because the potential for collaborative governance to amplify uh the ability of china to create public value through interaction between its public and private sectors it's just so great and it'll be a shame to squander that thank you very much and i will uh uh turn it over again to john hague for some concluding observations and then we will uh entertain your questions so my comments really are gonna i'm gonna leave it with karen karen's gonna help manage the uh the q a i would encourage you to feel free to put them into the q a chat um you know i've always found with this group that anything is fair game um i will start this off very briefly one of the questions that's in the in the in the chat area in the q a section now um is not necessarily specific to china or um it's more directed at the united states do you have any thoughts or any lessons uh from the texas power fiasco as it relates to collaborative governance or its failure and karen i'll leave it to you to manage the rest and okay so let me respond to that john um there's a um [Music] maxim that i use in my course i even used it when you were there which is diagnosis before prescription and we had a talk a couple of days ago where bill hogan who's been heavily involved in the design of the texas system um and is one of the nations indeed the world's leading energy experts said that many aspects of that are discussed as what going wrong in texas have been significantly misdiagnosed and it's often said that a crisis is a terrible thing to waste but a crisis is also a terrible thing to lead you to leap to conclusions that might be inappropriate and i think that almost any jurisdiction has that particular tendency indeed bill raises the question as to whether this was really a one in a hundred year phenomenon and how much money should we be willing to spend to reduce the likelihood of such a phenomenon going forward and i think that that's a general lesson for um almost any uh catastrophe including the pandemic and sometimes we spend much too little in preventing them or in preparing to cope with them and sometimes we spend much too much we should make that a deliberation rather than something for example that we would discuss now just a short period after that because we really don't know exactly what went wrong so jack did you have anything you wanted to add to that or should we move on to the next question so we have a question here perhaps ija would like to comment and then if richard or jack also um how does china's pursuit of self-sufficiency in strategic areas such as semiconductors affect its collaboration with the private sector dija any thoughts on that question you would like to share you have to unmute yourself okay so sorry thank you for this interesting question as i just mentioned the situation of digital government because for china now we are very enthusiastic to bring in high technology into the operation of the government to facilitate its service provision but the situation is that the government doesn't have enough digital capacities is just true for the development of the semi-conductor industry basically the government i mean doesn't have much means on hand so it has to cooperate or not with the private industry so in that process i think garment doesn't just play a role of collaborator just as i mentioned the government needs to balance its role as a collaborator as individual policy maker and also as a market regulator in this case i think the important roles more important roles of the government are the industrial policy maker and market regulator how to create sufficient competition within the market and how to create good industrial policy environments for these semiconductor companies to grow so yes i think that kind of strategy certainly makes it a priority for government to think how to collaborate well with the you know semiconductor private companies thank you um richard maybe we can ask you first to step in there's a question about um collaborative approaches are different in these two countries and they also need to work together to address global challenges like climate change and others so i don't know if you have thoughts the comment was that we seem to be providing an optimistic approach to the countries being able to work together what are your thoughts richard well i think that um dealing with what we what economists would call global public goods is the major challenge for the 21st century the pandemic was the first example i think climate change is the overwhelming example and i think that we understand public goods theory and alliance theory appropriately the big players have to play a disproportionate role and the two big players in this area are called china and the united states and i think we're going to have to i think that in time we will see that on the climate problem um our interests are actually pretty strongly aligned thomas shelling who was an instructor for um of the three authors of this volume uh look spent much of his life looking at the cold war and the rivalry between the ussr and the united states and his big insight was that these two nations which thought of themselves as being um in some sense enemies much more so than china in the united states which are not threatening to destroy each other at the moment actually had the greatest common interest in this one goal which was the central goal i think of the last half of the 20th century which was avoiding nuclear war and we managed to do it and i'm sort of hoping that with regard to climate change we're going to figure out how to do it i also this is just to decide about climate change um i think we are too late to control climate change just through controlling carbon emissions uh we've discovered in the last few weeks actually that even that very few countries are coming close to the targets that they mentioned than the paris accord and we're likely to have two degree set agreed warming unless we do something else which will involve some technological mechanism which could be flight in the stratosphere into living aerosols it could be carbon sequestration and planting of trees but we're going to have to move in that direction and i think that china and the united states is the two uh also two technological powerhouses are going to have to be involved in working on these alternate or complementary solutions together thank you egl i don't know if you wanted to add a few comments to that or i can move on to the next question i think for collaborative governance for domestic issues and also for international issues the contexts are actually quite different all the logics may be applicable when we think about relations between china and united states i think the constitution and the institution environments and behavior patterns should be very different but we have diversity situation we can also think about the best situation for example today's first speaker professor summers i think for many people of us maybe you know his theory of the violence of the financial terror between china and the united states because firstly we think about balance of nuclear terror between soviet union and the united states then he coined that item the balance of financial terror so i i mean we cannot get into too much detail but it simply means that both countries are believed to be able to destroy another financially then no one wants to destroy another party okay but certainly that's a worse situation but the best situation is that we trust each other we think about the common interests the potential synergy between us i think the current realities has have been testing the theory by professor summers yeah but i i do think that in the ear future i think if the leaders of the two countries if the city of two countries you can calm down and think about the situation between two countries with a kind of holistic picture then you can gradually realize that there is that kind of potential of living between two countries and a lot of collaborative governance mechanisms may be applied into the bilateral relations between the two countries in general and many in many specific areas thank you thank you and jack maybe you can try answering there's a question to what extent to differences in political governance and rule of law between the two countries condition the nature of their respective collaborative governance well it would be silly to suggest that they uh did anything but condition them profoundly i mean the the legal the cultural institutional context matters enormously for the the forms of uh collaboration that are available and their odds of success um i guess i would like to uh to touch on a related theme that's come up in several of the questions which is the i guess the the what's what's special about collaborative governance how's this different from from contracting and uh you know corporate voluntarism and that uh kind of fashionable but terribly and precise term public-private partnerships and we actually avoid the term public-private partnerships simply because it's uh it means two meanings so many things that means nothing at all and our definition of collaborative governance does hinge on the notion of recognized explicit intentional and managed sharing of discretion between the public and private sectors and government's ability to uh to do that is uh is is deeply conditioned by the nature of the institutions and the sense of of uh of what's legitimate for government to do and the capability in terms of institutions and human capital within government so you do have to understand what your government is capable of uh before you before you begin to think about collaborative governance and some governments simply aren't capable of it at all some governments are don't have the analytic capability or the popular legitimacy to engage in this high potential but rather complex and error-prone form of collective action great thank you so we have another question about uh related to transparency but maybe also uh richard can comment both jack and richard on um the question about uh reporting and general accounting and transparency and how they interact so is there a middle ground for china um also in the u.s to present similar reliable reporting and transparency questioner is expressing some doubt that it's possible to do that equally in both countries do you have thoughts on this richard first well one i will give the thoughts but i will then call on you to give thoughts because you know roughly a hundred times as much about china as i do you may argue you might say it's only 87 times as much but many countries are now moving to [Music] accounting standards that will be understood elsewhere and if you it needn't be that china uses our system and i'm sure that america would not adopt to a chinese system but if it can improve matters uh 20 percent that would be a major gain and the reason that people are using these accounting standards is that it enables them to perform better in international market people are willing to lend the money people are willing to welcome them into their country so on and so forth uh these things go so far that some countries actually adopt the laws of other countries in order to [Music] to do this a interesting example is the laws in terms of arbitration it's now quite common for a contract between country a and country b to agree that it will be arbitrated in country c because i don't want to use your standards and you don't want to use my standards and country c standards are very best so i think that there will be some gravitation towards common standards and you will be disadvantaged if your accounting system is somewhat different from other people's standards interestingly canada which we think of as the country that's closest to the united states actually has quite different accounting standards in some areas than does the united states which is provides havoc for country for companies that play a major role in the united states as well as canada thank you that's related to another question which i'll invite jack to see if he wants to answer are there gold standards of collaborative governance in other parts of the world outside of the us and china that we can look towards for inspiration we mention only a few in the book while you think about that just to answer what richards asked about maybe an example of transparency from the china case we talk about the challenges for example in the dbal minimum living standard program in china it's required that the localities publicly post or let the community know about the individuals receiving that public support program but that also creates problems if the program wants to meet more than one goal such as uh stability as well as providing minimum support that's one case that we talk about uh so jack did you have question about um any thoughts you want to share about the question um you know that's a really interesting question i've been i've been trying to think of there's an answer to that there certainly are uh countries that uh tend to do a relatively good job at cross-sectoral interaction i don't think there's any gold standard that serves as a template for other countries to adopt not the united states definitely not china because the you know the right the right models depend so much on the cultural and institutional context in some ways i mean the united states has an awful lot of um of successful examples just because we try a lot because we we tend to uh shy away from pure governmental approaches so we we experiment a lot with with mixed mixed approaches some of them are catastrophic but some of them just by the law of averages work out pretty well so uh i would say uh the united states is not a bad place to look to four successful examples in terms of countries that have the highest hit rate the the the highest fraction of relatively successful uh kinds of collaboration to uh to the uh disasters it's kind of the usual suspects of uh well-governed countries the you know the nordics germany singapore on a good day uh the uk can i just say a word yes richard wants to talk about singapore perhaps since i want to talk about singapore okay um i want to talk about an area where the world seems to have met a common standard which once again deals with vaccines by the way very important for china china has pledged to give away a half billion doses not deliver a half billion doses of its sinovac vaccine produced by a private company to the world many countries that produce vaccines there's a world standard on this you have to get your vaccine approved by you know what we would call traditional standards and you have to publish in one of the major medical journals unfortunately for many places that's those are in the united states and in the united kingdom lancet the general american medical association um etc so in the new england journal of medicine um and people do not trust vaccines that haven't received um that particular imprimiter of um you know meeting a world standard so i think this goes to the theme that jack talked about of transparency um you have to have the things peer-reviewed and these are all by the way private sector publications government has no role with them whatsoever so we're coming up upon an hour maybe i'll pose this question and if any of our panelists today would like to answer are there certain frameworks for collaborative governance that are consistently more effective than others in particular contexts anyone want to give a couple minutes thought on that question i'll start on that karen i think the important um piece of general guidance that we've we develop in this book and also in in a previous book that richard and i wrote on this is the most important thing is to recognize what you're doing to recognize that that contracting and voluntarism and collaboration are different they have different uh intellectual uh approaches they have different managerial imperatives and many of the most uh uh you know unfortunate mistakes come when people think they're contracting but they're collaborating when they think that they're dealing uh with uh a collaborator but in fact they're they're dealing with a uh you know a a volunteer organization so being clear about the nature of the relationship is the first step to getting it right go ahead richard um well i would say that this is useful whatever form of collaborative governance is uh found mostly in your particular jurisdiction um and i think here china and the united states are definitely fortunate relative to other countries be willing to experiment and innovate and particularly give up uh frameworks or approaches that don't work and that's very hard to do because when you start something interest groups build up who like the way you're doing things um but if you start from the very beginning with the idea that we're gonna have some equivalent of you know zero-based budgeting and we're gonna look at the experiment and see how it works out that offers a tremendous power no matter what framework you're using no matter what apparatus is in place i think we should ask jizya to give us a final benedictory word on this subject actually i just have some response to the question uh i think it's very difficult to conclude a new framework of pvp is always effective it's are many other factors as jack just said and i think a very important perspective is to sync ppp or collaborate governance as a process it's not just a kind of one-shot decision to determine who will be our partners that may be just a beginner stage and then we have to establish appropriate mutual relations based on rules and informal principles and we have to monitor that process manage that process process to evaluate the performance and come up with some further measures steps punishments and rewards so that's a process as a dynamic process in need of management thank you thank you very much indeed in our book we emphasize in many of the chapters that process of analysis and revision so we appreciate you're highlighting that i just want to conclude by thanking everybody today thank you all for joining us today and for your interest in public-private collaboration on behalf of the one-fifth of humanity that call china and the u.s home and who working together can also forward global collective interests we hope to hear from you about your ideas upon reading the book perhaps after the paperback or a chinese edition become available many thanks to our esteemed commentators today lawrence summers and ija jing and thanks to the others who also provided endorsements and reviews of our book farid zakaria anthony sage david lampton yeshu many thanks to my co-authors who use the power of majority voting to determine the author order of our book thanks also to john higgs scott leland victoria gross cardia and to the staff at stanford asia pacific research center especially lisa lee and noah rankin so thank you all for joining and have a good evening or a good morning depending on your side of the pacific thank you