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this is a production of cornell university thanks for joining us john i'm going to just take a couple of minutes and make my way uh through an update to set the stage for our conversation uh the fastest 30 minutes in turf we we like to call it and it's an hour and a half if you uh look at all three webinars during the week so uh always i'm i'm a good uh visitor of twitter uh love to see a tweet of somebody helping out on the golf course and and i gotta tell you there has to be some lag effect that these some of these things that look cute now are gonna have people are gonna bump into things it's like yeah it's actually pretty cool working on a golf course well i think i can get up and do this and the next thing you know you see wonderful videos uh like just came out the other day um i think it was a bunch of uh turf professionals talking about really enjoying the work and students being involved so a lot of good and of course families being together on the course is is always a positive thing uh carl was out carl our resident professional golfer who decided to take up gainful employment and made the mistake of working with me all these years uh i was out playing golf at one of our wonderful state park golf courses carl make sure you put a leak to all those wonderful state park golf courses and the steps we're taking to uh uh you know address the needs of cart use right and here is uh the golf pro or member of the soaring eagle staff big shout out to those guys of course was in great shape carl tells me uh and sanitizing the golf carts right there's probably many ways to skin this cat uh um and so there's a video on facebook that carl can uh direct you to and listen this is nobody knows how to do this i didn't nobody went to school for how to sanitize a stupid golf cart right i mean it's like a lot of things in this business it's it's common sense oriented so you know there's lots of ways to do it but my advice is to get a procedure in place there's places to start right uh the new jersey superintendents i was poking around again in preparation for this the other day i'm like yeah how much more do we have and i'm like yeah the jersey guys what they got from easy go is still one of the best uh things we have just about how to deal with this now what's interesting and you know you look into this a little bit and all of a sudden we're spraying sanitizer everywhere i have a friend over at pesticide management education here at cornell the pmet program that administers all the pesticide training for all the categories uh run by the dec this is a private operation here not a private operation it's a sort of an enterprise operation at cornell's many years lived on dec funding and now has to sort of determine how it's going to be in the future but recently uh with all the concern about oh we got to spray these things i mean you know wha what's he spraying what is that we're spraying something to kill something and so the pmap is trying to give guidance on this and directing you to this wonderful website that the dec put up and updates apparently was updated on the 8th uh most recently i took this off just the other day uh of products you can use products that are labeled right if you're going to start doing this and we're going to start exposing people to these things right we better make sure uh we're at least using products now i'm sure somebody's going to ask do you have to be certified to do this and carl i don't know the answer to that question but it made me think about it certainly something we should explore now we're going to be spraying these things down uh with disinfectant i mean there's no reason to think it it's a problem i mean i don't know you have to be certified to use disinfectants in your bathroom uh so i don't know why you would have to be but certainly worthy of exploration uh just to note returning to normalcy right i look at my email this morning and i get this from the mags the mid-atlantic superintendents down there uh in the chesapeake bay and they're having this challenge between the eastern shore and the mid-atlantic every year and it's a golf tournament and so here is you know all right what are these guys gonna do all right here's how they're gonna do it i thought the second one was very interesting you can have foursomes but you can only have two cards and only one person can use a cart the other person's got to walk the whole way but both bags have to be in the cart all right 15 ways to do this to try to keep hey can one of yours walk you know can one of us walk right and so uh and that sort of saves us a little bit on the traffic thing i thought that was pretty cool from those guys anyway for those of you everywhere else but in upstate new york this is what i woke up to today i walked out the door uh looked at the sun shining on a barn across the street and there it is snow on the ground so i don't need to tell you how far behind we remain uh from what looked like was going to be you know guys putting pre-emergents and summer patch materials down at the end of march early april to now essentially the conversation with john today will be about that particular fact and addressing those root born pathogens but you can see from our weather data from our forecast website that we're just not changing very much and the forecast looks a little better looks a little better we're in the double-digit accumulation now of base 50 growing degree days this is not a place we've been really since early april it's more than six weeks since we've been able to accumulate more than just single digits in much of new york state and probably like john along the coast and in stores maybe a little bit more because of the impact of the water bodies now the conversation for today is really about root pathogens i know you know john was one of the many scholars that came out of the rutgers anthracnos initiative for many years john did some wonderful work there but of course the most important thing is he walked away with his lovely wife michelle decosta another wonderful professor at the university of massachusetts but while they were theirs uh john was studying annual bluegrass and anthracnose and turjan presents this sort of growth model for the way annual bluegrass grows and and michelle is studying bent grass i think it was water stress as i recall fairway water management back in the day uh looking at bank grasses different types of bent grasses but one of the things we know about bank grasses and bench grass root growth right is that you're going to get a lot more root growth early on then you're going to get top growth on a lot of these bent grasses if we're talking roots for today all right so let's since we're talking roots let's talk about cell temperature here is uh where we were uh about six weeks ago you could see it was looking okay we're about to have our our triggers hit uh for uh our summer patch and and take all patch sprays and and then may 4th uh you could see last week we were uh really sniffing at it again and you wake up today and the two-inch soil temperature which is a very uh reflective of the air temperature simply will not budge beyond the mid 50s even in the urban areas okay so uh fairy ring and summer patch take all patch are the topics for today mostly summer patch and some take off no fairy ring uh today john no worries but uh i took i take and use this publication if you don't have this uh on your desk it's it's really the most practical guide available and as soon as the compendium maybe gets done at some point uh is the compendium done john i think they if it's not done um yeah they're just i think they're kind of wrapping it up so um yeah i think we're pretty close yeah that's the nice companion to this particular publication and and so i found uh some of john's work on the internet um where he was giving a presentation about this particular topic and his research and there are always been some particular things he's noticed that have fascinated me in this case you can see the very typical summer patch you might see on a intermediate rough next to a fairway or a collar next to a putting green john took this wonderful picture this has got to be an all-time this is a hall of fame picture in my opinion for a root disease where he's taken the sample you can see where he's taking the sample from right at the edge of the patch you know i don't want to i don't interrupt you here frank but just a second because there's something real interesting this photo i think what's great about this photo oh this one yeah go no no back up to the uh the mowing height oh there you go what what i think is really interesting in this in this photograph so you've got a creeping bentgrass um putting green there obviously and then you've got your your first step cut kentucky bluegrass at the exact same cultivar of kentucky bluegrass at three inches and one and a half inches and what this what this photograph really illustrates is the effect of mowing height on summer patch okay so i mean you've got summer patch in that one and a half inch cut i guarantee you have i mean obviously shows the species difference but in the three and a half excuse me in the three and the one and a half inch mowing heights the pathogen is there you don't see the diseases prevalently in that three and a half and that three inch mowing height because the height of cut is greater presumably we have more roots okay we have more root mass we have more numbers of roots and and i think it just illustrates very much summer patch is a war of attrition the more roots you have the more roots you can tolerate losing and still maintain acceptable turf and so here is the image of the healthy roots going through the elfification hole and along the patch here along the patch where you took the sample you can see that the roots have declined so obviously john if the roots were more prolific outside of the air frication holes that would help this side of the sample but it also demonstrates at least the potential value right that verification and relieving compaction uh can have so so listen this is what the guys are saying in that manual i'm assuming somewhat uh dependent on your work because they talk about it here uh and there's two particular issues going on one is the manganese applications and the other is using errification in two forms to alleviate compaction one with a solid tine and one with a hollow tine right and then the manganese sulfate application and when you look at uh what they recommend uh from your work uh based on on your work these are uh some of the speculations now now let's start with um let me get let me get to the picture here's the picture right so so john you want to take her from here and talk about this a little bit rather than me yakking yeah yeah so you know the interesting thing um this was this was research that we had done um looking at compaction uh and different types of cultivation practices both hollow time and solid time and um you know one thing that we saw you know kind of going back there in this study where we didn't compact the soil we could not get the disease so it just really reinforces how important compaction is this disease is definitely dependent on compacted soils reduced again again war of attrition the amount of roots compacted soils having less roots increases the likelihood or the severity of this disease okay so these photos all show compacted plots all right but we have hollow and we have solid time okay um and uh what we did see was that in some cases we had a little bit of an issue with the solid times okay um what we what we can see in this top three photographs at the top right this is a panel showing uh the the additional factor that we were looking at which was main uh this manganese okay so when we look at the top three photographs we can see that none of these plots have manganese we see that the solid tine which is in the middle that's frank circled there uh has you know six clear patches of summer patch disease all right if we look at the hollow tine we see there's no disease okay if we look at the no or the no cultivation we can see faintly a little bit of disease in there okay but what we're seeing here is that the solid tine actually increased the amount of summer patch okay and you know this was a little bit surprising to me at first i mean obviously we see holotyne reducing the disease as we would expect because we're leaving compaction solid time actually increased it and what we what we also did in this study is we we measured compaction okay um but we also measured use the penetrometer okay and so what we did is we actually excavated a a soil plug three inches deep which is the depth of our tines okay and we removed an intact core to a three inch depth and then we put a penetrometer right on that spot and we were able to see that we had developed a little bit of a hard pan um from repeatedly solid timing to that same depth every year okay in a native soil in a native soil in a native soil thank you yeah um and so because we're you know solid timing to that same level we weren't removing that core uh presumably we're creating a little compaction layer or a pan layer right at that uh at that three inch depth all right so listen let's go back let's go back to because you've explained the first three parts of this the last part is the manganese uh and i'm assuming it was manganese sulfate of some sort that's correct um you know the question in the manual and i'm wondering about it is have you done any more work to show you need um these uh subsequent applications is there a level of manganese in the soil john that that um that we need to have now now remind everybody why manganese in particular is important with these diseases if you would so i mean manganese is you know it's a nutrient required by the plant um you know at a base of basic level it's usually utilized in the chlorophyll molecule and it's important for photosynthesis and greening of the leaves but in addition to that it also has roles in plant defense um uh manganese is one of the components that's involved in in making phenolics which are these compounds that uh that plants will produce that can be toxic to fungi and so when the fungus infects the plant these phenolic compounds these chemicals that the plant make to get in there and they kind of degrade that mycelium as it's penetrating the plant so chemically manganese helps the plant form these chemical defenses and it also helps the plant form lignin okay this is a structural defense okay so it makes those cell walls stronger and more resilient to infection by the pathogen as well so so manganese is involved in both physical and chemical uh defense and this is true for take all as well on ben yes okay so how much do we have to do do we have to apply it all the time well so the questions that you brought up with uh with what is the rate what is the interval um you know these are these are these are important questions that um that we are looking to address i actually um we've got funding from the tri-state research foundation um where we're looking at uh looking at this in more depth about manganese availability and what is that critical amount of manganese to to reduce the disease because and you know the the old work that bruce did years ago back you know in the early 90s also showed the value of uh ammoniacal nitrogen ammonium sulfate compared to calcium and potassium nitrate yeah where does that fit into this do i need this do i need is it the acidification as much as the manganese does the acidification potentially release the manganese yes um so what the so manganese is um is a nutrient that's ph dependent okay so as the ph becomes lower the amount of plant available manganese increases okay okay and so um so what we see is you know that's why we generally well there's a lot of reasons we generally see less summer patch when our ph's are lower okay 6.8 seems to be like kind of a cardinal value that a lot of us throw around um that if you're above 6.8 a likelihood of having you know much more significant summer patch problems is greater but you know the severity of the disease will decrease at lower phs um but so as the at those lower ph's manganese be is is more plant available and you know t at could be a factor in why you know we see less of the disease at lower lower uh phs ammonium sulfate reduces the ph right at the root zone like right around the root okay so it doesn't reduce this bulk soil ph very quickly but it can have a dramatic effect on the peak right at the root right where the pathogen is trying to infect the roots and so um so that's you know presumably why we do see um a significant impact of of reducing summer patch severity with those applications of ammonium any ammonium-based fertilizer okay so so from a cultural perspective this is an area where nutrient management and ph adjustment soil chemical properties can play a role in managing a disease right that's there's good solid research in this area over a long period of time uh and of course alleviating compaction and maximizing your root mass and depth of course is is going to be important and then it's the the what we always do which are the early season drenches john um that are done when the you know to go back to this this this note here right this persistent temperature uh at a two inch depth uh that they've published on summer patch uh in the manual here um we're not there yet does this feel weird that we're not there yet would you have put it down already if you put it down is it gone this is a very confusing time i think uh for this particular thing that's why i wanted to have you on yeah yeah no i mean um you know every year is different that's why you know that's why we certainly i always encourage people to actually measure their soil temperatures to go by a calendar is really challenging with these these types of applications i mean we're investing a lot in these in these applications these are expensive applications high rates multiple applications lots of water timing so you know so it's really important to go that extra mile to measure those soil temperatures and i'm not talking i mean you know frank showed some great photos some great graphics um showing you know regional soil temperatures based on the newa site and that's great um but you got to do that you got to do that on your own site for yourself that's right um you know you gotta you know where you have summer patch problems it's a historical disease it's gonna show up in the same spots year after year so you need to be getting a soil probe out there and and measuring the temperature of those soils at a two inch depth i suggest afternoon two o'clock in the afternoon is what i typically stick with and you want to be consistent you'll see a huge difference in that soil temperature at two inches if you're measuring in the morning versus the afternoon okay it's responsive to air temperature right it's responsive to air temperature okay so you know listen there's a lot of things we can talk about regarding this and of course one of the things that we beat on is when i talk to bruce about summer patch and why it fails sometimes he says basically two things sometimes guys get lazy and don't put on a high enough rate right you you don't have it for a while you think you can get by with a lower rate and consistently they don't put on enough water um that seems to me to be the story right john water you've got to be able to drench these things into where the roots are i mean that's you know to our to our best knowledge right now i mean that's that's what we're what what we would expect i mean this is a root pathogen fungicides do not move down in the plant okay we we we want to protect those roots and the only way we can protect those roots is by getting the fungicide to the root and so you know maximizing our ability to do that whether that's you know a combination of watering it in i also think about i also think about uniformity of wedding profiles okay you know using wedding agents and making you know you've seen the photos with the fingered water movement right you know think about that's where your fungicides going okay and so if you don't get good uniform wetting profile down through the soil then your fungicides not going to uniformly treat your roots either so you know i think you really want to be thinking about trying to maximize getting that fungicide to the roots because it's challenging right we use such high rates because you know a lot of these fungicides we use they have an extremely high affinity for the organic matter in our soils okay so a lot of the fungicide that we're putting there doesn't get to the root because it gets locked into the organic matter so again you want to try to create that you know i like to think of you know if you've got problems with it you know maybe having a pre-treatment with a wetting agent before you apply the fungicide you get a uniform wetting profile and then having that material move down more uniformly uh and maybe you know help improve the uptake and and that is uh you know that's a whole conversation what you just went through on the way soils wet how fungicides move and i think to a certain extent i've always described this application as a drench so that guys you know put on ridiculous amounts of water because you're right once that fungicide gets there with the organic matter it's going to bind and it's going to make it more difficult to sort of do its thing on you know get into the plant and and provide the protection what i think is fascinating and less talked about is this particular fact john i have to say up until last week when i was thinking more about preparing for the conversation i went through the guide and what is this about where fungicides applied as curatives uh seem to be enhancing it or causing damage um fungicides apply torque caused phytotax bluegrass and several it says that when you spray dachnal and chipko you're getting more damage i i enhance symptom development i have never seen that i don't think they're talking about the they're not talking about uh applying chlorothalonil or hyperdione as curative applications for dog for for summer patch because neither of those fungicides are really going to give you any control of summer patch right right you're using these things for probably dollar spot or something else during the mid to late summer right so yes it's not for summer patch but when you use it it seems to enhance uh summer patch yeah so i mean so this is information that's you know dr clark down at rutgers has seen this in his field trials where uh even like some of the pre-mixed uh fungicides that are available on the market where it's a dmi by itself compared to a premix with dmi plus chlorothalonil they're seeing more summer patch um in the in those treatments that have the chlorophylline on it not that it's increasing it compared to untreated or anything like that but but they're not as effective uh when you put chlorophyllin or epidione and you know the real reason for that is not we don't we can't say exactly at this point but essentially what we're seeing is maybe maybe you know this you know we're all there's all kinds of buzz about microbiome phytobiome and this kind of thing you know is it a situation where we maybe have some natural antagonism uh to the to the summer patch pathogen um and and that the chlorothalonil or hyperdione might be you know suppressing those beneficial organisms and maybe potentially increasing the severe disease we don't really know i'm speculating yeah that's great i love that that's what we're doing and nobody's listening anyway john it's just us all right carl yeah just me you and carl and i think uh you know that's the kind of thing we need to get out there because these are the things that still need to be studied now let's listen we're getting close to the witching hour call but i haven't talked about take all john and i you know i i you know now that more guys are getting bent grass um certainly you know you're not going to find bank grass like you're going to find poa or some things on on heavy heavy soils unless they're fairways of course but again bank grass this is a primary problem i would assume of of fangrass but the control that's recommended that i don't see for summer pets and i wonder if it's just the nature of the way people have researched it john this is saying that actually for outbreaks in the spring they wanted you to treat last fall is this a pretty standard recommendation for take all applications and does that mean a spring application is really not worth it i mean i i would tend to agree with this um you know and the reason that the timings of these two different uh fungicide applications are different is because the activity the growth of the pathogens are are very much different uh take all gematomyces tends to be um active and growing actively and infecting plants at cooler temperatures okay it actually starts to it shuts down during the warm summer months okay but in the fall it begins to become it reactivates okay so you can start to get those infections in the fall which is why we suggest those fall applications and the spring applications you know you could almost think about that as you know oh what if i start my summer patch application in july you know you're too late so you know i almost look at those fall applications as more critical than the spring applications if you have a you know if you know you have a persistent summer excuse me take off issue okay and the same rules i'm sorry the same rules apply uh compacted soils ph manganese issues yeah and the manganese you know i think the timing you know corresponds with those fall and spring uh applications uh you know the you know you basically want to kind of get that make sure that that material is out there when the pathogen is infecting and whatnot okay um but yeah so yeah a lot of the the management recommendations are very similar across the board okay i didn't warn you and we're coming to the 30 minutes but buckley's been listening to us he act the whole time and so he's gonna want to have something to say carl i think he's asked something and we got a question there yeah richard's got a question uh do you feel that the solid time increased disease due to raising bulk density at the solid time so i think you you mentioned that a little bit john kind of that plow layer i know we talked about that in ag that's that's what you're attributing that to yeah yeah i mean and that's i mean that's what the data supports um we actually did show we documented it an increase in the soil compaction the pan layer right there at that three inch that's why we talked about staggering that depth and you know making sure you're kind of breaking that up and avoiding it i mean it's really interesting because hollow tines marty petrovic back in his graduate student days used a cat scan device to measure the compaction around the time you can find the paper if you if you look it up and he found even hollow kinds this was back in the day when paul ricci was just starting to study cultivation i hate i bear to say it in the 70s uh when they were just understanding that a plow layer could develop i didn't know there was a significant a difference between the hollow tine compaction at the bottom uh and and the solid time uh or that the hollow time would go at different depths and not work the same and maybe taking it out uh might make all the difference i i thought when you first started this work there was something about injuring that maybe the timing of the cultivation was an issue but you saw it over multiple years right we did see um we well we did see some damage associated with timing um so we did see um in some years where the hollow tining did increase the severity of summer patch a little bit it didn't exist through the whole summer but we did see that but but we we did those those verifications quite late okay i think the in that year we didn't get around to verifying those plots until like june okay and so by june our soil temperatures are already pushing above 70 degrees fahrenheit and so the likelihood of getting any root growth really you know to to kind of recover from that that aggressive cultivation probably was quite low and again i related back to the attrition we ended up with less root mass but but it is good to know that air vacation is a damaging and stressful thing as much as we are in an industry that thinks it's a solution to every problem we have is put a hole in the ground and i'm not always knocking it it usually works but i think the timing and when you do it is uh is pretty tricky when we're trying to get as much rooting as as we can and on the heels of not being able to produce roots it makes it worse so carl questions yeah so i got a question on that on that uh kind of cultivation front uh we talk about getting the the summer patch drenches down to the roots you know around two inch depth um and i kind of think well what if you just make holes at two inches if you just time to a two inch depth and then go with your drench over that but we're also talking about this compaction issue has that been something they've studied just making a hole to two inches and getting the fungicide down that way yeah i mean i don't know i don't know of any studies that specifically looked at that but i mean i to me the logic is is worth you know it makes sense to me um you know i think if it seems to me that you would potentially get some you know get those holes you get the material moving down there you might get a little bit of lateral spread um you know a little bit of downward spread um so i mean i you know if you can time it if you can sync up those applications and everything like that then you know i think it could be advantageous it's going to be tricky on soils if you've got any clay in that soil and you do it when it's a little too wet it's going to sheen the inside and seal the inside of that hole and you're nowhere you're just making little pools of the stuff now eventually maybe it seeps in and so so i i've thought that the only way to really sort of improve this in some of these soils is with wedding agents but the wedding agent work the guys are doing and what kearns is doing in north carolina just published recently i think he's doing that on sand and they barely get the stuff to go down on inch in sand john we got usga greens they're putting on a quarter half inch of water it's not going barely an inch so i don't know where i'm going in a native soil with clay and maybe i ought to think about cultural practices instead of drenching you know that intermediate cut that i want to get rid of anyway yep yeah no it's there's a lot it's it's tricky i mean uh you know i'm glad jim's doing that work because i think it's i think it's going to resolve a lot of questions that we have um but um well it raises more right john if if if really the best we're getting is an inch deep we're not protecting any roots deeper than that and if your image is any indication of how it can be where it's a stark line between man it chopped all these and there's they're pretty good here if it's a hard line like that and that organism is plentiful in the soil um it seems to me that you need your soils and the chemical properties and maybe grass types do we have varieties that are different here john are there varieties there's some varieties um in kentucky bluegrass that show some some better um more more resistant i think barbetta uh kentucky bluegrass tends to be a little bit more tolerant i wouldn't say that any of them are i'm sorry not annual bluegrass no no no no okay carl questions uh yeah no questions so um i think uh we can wrap it at that right around half an hour um really appreciate you coming on john it's great conversation yeah that's fun thanks guys appreciate that carl survey yeah uh i'll throw this survey one more time uh in the uh chat box here for those five of you that watch the video fill out the survey right right so um you know we've gotten a lot of responses so far but i'll throw that again in there um and you know thanks for sticking with us we'll see if we continue to do this but uh yeah we'll see you next week for sure we'll make a plan soon john best of michelle and the kids take care all right take care everybody thank you see ya this has been a production of cornell university on the web at cornell.edu