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I think what SME customers are demanding from their banks and how those banks can fill the gap it's it's sort of quite similar to what you see on the retail side obviously with technology now we expect things much faster we expect things pretty much instantly we expect it to be a pretty seamless process and we hope that it's been pretty personalized and to what we are looking for and I think that's similar to what what SME is now an SME business owners are looking for they want to be able to be either the bank that's going to take a race with the complexity that's going to explain things in English rather than the the lingo and that they're going to hopefully fix with a problem or open their account or transact their business loan you know quickly or as quickly as possible and they don't mean waiting for sort of weeks for a response to emails or to have MDA signed things like that so I think the expectation has changed a lot because of what we've seen on the retail side and how technology has facilitated the interactions with other businesses of twofolds I think they're more demanding than before and what they are expecting from the bank is sometimes more reactivity more flexibility in one word a better customer experience and the second thing is if they go outside the bank they're expecting to see something different so maybe something longer something more unsecured I think I'll turn to blender can fill a gap when they try to act in conjunction with bank financing not to replace them [Music] so it was the first thing is they actually need what a lot of other customers need so but it's actually important to recognize who they are so self-employed are workers like many employees and therefore they need the same kind of services and products that employees have and really banks need to start recognizing that that they're not businesses they're actually more more work more like workers and employees than businesses and start being able to service them like that I think with open banking when you apply it to SME banking it's um it's one of those things I think what we've seen with open banking on the retail side is that for the most part most individuals still aren't really aware of it I think there's a lack of understanding around it and it was just sort of bad timing I think that open banking came out at the exact same time as the Facebook Cambridge Onitsuka scandals so most consumers are probably a bit weary of sharing their data and and then enabling other businesses to use their data and so I think if we can see more people using it on the sort of retail side then hopefully that will flow over to the SME side I mean it would be hugely helpful obviously to have access to that information if you look at oak north bank for example as an SME lender having access to businesses cash flow and how what sort of things they they spend the money on looking at their current accounts because we don't offer those products and that would be hugely helpful would just help with some of the initial onboarding process and the doodle abilities that we have to do as part of our credit analysis and so it could be it could be really impactful but I think it's only going to happen if we see a good amount of usage from the retail side and then they'll say okay now let's apply that to the SME side as well I think the key piece here is the data so self-employed are quite a diverse group across lots of different kind of professions and sectors they have a number of kind of common attributes like the kind of variable nature of their of their income and kind of and the fact they don't get paid for holidays so open banking actually who helps kind of understand those income profiles understand their kind of their genuine earnings and can actually be used then to be able to modify and build products that are designed for that help your underwrite for credit so actually get a real understanding of their affordability versus the traditional what is your paycheck and a letter from employer we've seen a lot of developments lately including in our company where we are using big data meaning over ten years of data related to SMEs balance sheet and every information we have and with this data we tried to model the probability of default with real elements and it is actually pretty powerful to have a sense statistical sense of the risk you're taking when you lend to a small essence so you can leverage on data to deal may be robust scoring model but I wouldn't rely solely on this model I think data is a good way to complement a human analysis of finessing the risk so it's really interesting I think and how data should be used and when it comes to assessing risk with SME lending is that you should be looking at the full picture of the business I think historically there's been a focus on the traditional data so financial operations data which obviously is still what you should use but I think looking at you know the 21st century and the amount of data that's now available to us there's probably a lot of other datasets that you could use to build a fuller picture of business so if I give you an example if you're looking at something like a hotel or restaurant chain and actually being able to look at data on sites such as TripAdvisor or book mcoms seeing how many reviews they've had and how many customers tend to rate them out of five stars or four stars what the feedback tends to be like in terms of customer service if it's a restaurant chain of lots people are saying they've had food poisoning there's probably not a good sign and those are things that I think historically banks haven't really looked at they hadn't gone to delve into that level of detail it's just been if the business is performing well and it's it's got sort of good footfall and things so I think being able to look at some other additional two sets could help to build a much fuller picture and a much more interesting picture as one here against two Falls one the one I was just referring to link to the credit modeling to try to have a sense of the risk you're taking the other part is to me link to the customer experience you can use technology for a better scalability of every part of your process from the decision making process to getting the information you can use the API to get this information put it in a structured way go faster in your decision-making process and automate your loan documentation which is exactly what we try to do if you look at some of the platforms particularly in Southeast Asia in the early stages in the first pieces in the banking of the actual workers so a lot of these platforms are fundamentally based on digital and electronic payments and therefore they're they need their workers and customers to be banked so in both Southeast Asia with the likes of grab-and-go jerk who've effectively settled neo banks in order to both service their and workers and then also to leverage the customers and then in the US with uber in particular lyft and others are doing similar Buber a number of years ago was the largest source of new business accounts in the u.s. through one of their partners would go back because they were onboarding they were helping their drivers get bank accounts so they could get paid and they've obviously recently announced some new services around uber money to start building on that so I think when you look at a big tech and how they are moving into the banking and the the FinTech landscape it's been happening a lot I mean you see it with a number of examples obviously recently Google announced they don't agree and creating current accounts we've seen it with tie ups between JP Morgan and Amazon we've seen in them tie ups between a Goldman Sachs and Apple and so there's a lot of actually a lot of big texts are kind of already in this space do I think they'd want to come in as fully regulated banks probably not I think they'll go down the route of partnering with big financial institutions who can sort of do deal with all the boring stuff and who have that who can deal with the regulatory burden without and these businesses having to deal with it instead they'll leverage their brands they'll leverage their and customer experience and their UX to hopefully combine the best of both worlds and get access to a financial brand that people trust or at least that they are aware of and then combine that with their consumer brand that and consumers love all that they tend to buy the products so we are seeing it how can thin tax and and then there's another financial institutions stay competitive I think or come for a couple of things some are choosing to do tie ups with them as we've seen with the likes of JP Morgan and Goldman Sachs so you know if you can't beat them then join them and and and become an even stronger entity together and I do think in ultimately there will be probably some FinTech players some new players who will will not be able to descale as as quickly as they perhaps have been historically as a result because they're not sort of big enough to be interesting and for the big tech players to want to partner with them they're already finding it challenging to compete with the big financial institutions if you then add on that that those big financial institutions are now coupling with big tech it makes that that's Hans even bigger [Music]