Sign Idaho Banking IOU Myself

Industry sign banking idaho iou myself

[Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] and i i'm really looking forward to this this day that we built out here um i really on a focus on on just basically bitcoin is trying to practice you know use these best practices every day of the year yeah yeah absolutely and uh i'm really excited to have some of our guests on because they have really been pushing bitcoin self-sovereign usage forward one of our guests in particular whiz has been chirping that every day is proof of keys day every day is a day for you to hold and maintain your own custody can you kind of talk philosophically as well as practically like why is it so important for bitcoin that bitcoin holders continue to manage their own keys and distribute you know the the pool of keys around individuals um i mean i i think i think fundamentally um it's hard for people to grok at first this idea that you can actually secure your own wealth um that you can actually you can hold it yourself without a third party and this is a key tenant of bitcoin this idea that you don't have to rely on a centralized third party to secure your money for you and secure your data for you um so that that whole value prop of bitcoin this idea that you could be self-sovereign that you can control your own keys that that you can use this this permissionless money in a trust minimized environment and send money around the world without people controlling how you do that is only possible if bitcoiners practice self-sovereignty and use these best practices so i i think uh it's you know obviously it's not gonna oh it's not gonna be the easiest option personal responsibility will always be the more difficult option um but bitcoin gives you that option and ultimately we need we need at least a a strong base of enthusiasts that are are practicing those options that are using using bitcoin to its full potential okay awesome well i'm excited to talk about you know the program that we have lined up matt and i worked closely in bringing together uh really kind of awesome experts who are very very neutral that was one of our big uh our big goals here was we wanted to you know take a very neutral stance on how bitcoiners can best protect themselves and stay sovereign so we are starting off with a conversation between matt and ben kaufman ben is a young and fiery developer who is building one of the coolest open source wallets out there specter wallet so super excited to have him uh chat with matt coming up next and then after that i'm jumping on with an ama with alex gladstein so uh for all you freaks out there for all the bitcoiners in the chat we are going to be monitoring the chat and bringing out those questions um and then after that we had a conversation which matt just recorded with whiz and katan um they were recording as bitcoin was crossing 30k for the first time and you can see it on the block clock behind them i think what you guys woke up super super early just to match their time zones uh for this recording how did that go matt that was a fun one um first of all i love both those guys i think uh the listeners are gonna really enjoy that conversation uh but yeah i was up at uh seven in the morning on a saturday to match their time zone uh while live while bitcoin went through 30k and we were just nerding out we had we had absolutely no idea you'll just see it ticking ticking by on the clock behind me dude it's awesome and bitcoin price right now is just the gift that keeps on giving and uh after after that piece of programming with uh whiz i am going to be doing a 14 minute video walking you guys through how to go from zero to full node multi-sig usage on a macbook pro i know a lot of millennials out there had a macbook pro pro from college it's a very common computer out there and i mean believe me it could not be easier to use bitcoin correctly if you used a prune node it really doesn't even take up much space on your computer so it could be your main everyday driver so that is a a good piece of content there and then we're going to close it out with our famous marbles on the bitcoin twitch stream we're going to be giving away tons of satoshi's over on twitch and playing marbles so we have a great community over there and if you have not checked out marbles on bitcoin magazine twitch you definitely need to it's a lot of fun so that's how we're going to be closing it out and yeah guys really excited to be putting together this uh this piece of content for proof of keys day and for bitcoin's 12th birthday all right and with that let's roll into our commercial and our very first piece of content you're live yo i think we're live now um i do have you on the live chat so to all you listeners out there if you want to participate uh give us a shout out in the live chat and uh we'll see if we can get some of your questions answered anyway happy birthday bitcoin uh i'm matt o'dell uh this is the 12th 12th birthday of bitcoin january 3rd was the genesis block um i'm joined here by ben kaufman uh young gun bitcoin developer uh who who's working on a project that i find very useful to every bit corner called spectre wallet how's it going ben hey uh doing good doing great even um yeah it's gonna be a birthday um 12 years it's been it's been a long time um bitcoin's come a long way uh it's pretty crazy to see um on this day historically for the last three years a group of bitcoiners have been participating in something called proof of keys day a day where bitcoiners uh take full sovereignty of their coins if they haven't already if they if they have their coins on an exchange or a third party um i was wondering and i think that the listeners would be interested in hearing and what your thoughts are on that tradition and just the overall concept of self-sovereignty in bitcoin yeah sure so on this tradition specifically i think the idea in general is is a good one but it should be impractical because if you can you know if you can hold your own keys and hold your own bitcoin you should do this all the time and if you can't then you can't do this just for one day you will probably screw something up so i i don't really see the idea of it really to be honest but it's another thing to celebrate i guess which is nice and it reminds people do to hold their own keys which is also nice uh and obviously about the summer and team or in general uh of course it's super important for bitcoin to to succeed uh to stay brazilian to stay censorship resistant uh to keep basically everything about bitcoin so if we want to to keep uh 21 million uh guarantee if we want to keep it censorship resistant if you want to keep anything that makes bitcoin what it is we really need to hold our own keys run our old notes just do it 100 couldn't agree couldn't agree with you more um so i mean i think i think the the the the exact explanation of proof of keys has always been like remove your keys on on on january 3rd and then like maybe send them right back in or something um but i think that the bigger purpose and and and the bigger benefit is more of an education push and i think that's what we're trying to focus on today um this idea that this is best practice this is how people should practice it all the time this is how people should use bitcoin all the time and i think especially on on days like today where we've had massive price appreciation i mean it was 29 000 yesterday and uh now it's over 34 000 who even knows what the price is right now we have all these people coming in we have all these newcomers coming in this is when people flow into bitcoin um you know december has been an absolutely insane month in terms of price appreciation so ben give the pitch to the new bitcoiners this is their first january third they have their they have their money on in exchange um maybe they went through a lengthy kyc process they put their id in um they have their bitcoin it's sitting in their balance you know on on a cash app or a river or a swan why should what should they do why should they withdraw it you know give them that pitch yeah uh sure i'll try my best so i basically if you're not holding your own keys you have no guarantee that you're holding bitcoin uh you don't you can't really control it uh you are trusting the the exchange the platform it's on uh what you're holding is just an iou for a bitcoin uh that i owe you might be honored it might not be honored uh the state could for some reason say that the exchange has been doing uh i don't know some aml uh money laundering stuff and then just take everything and then your iou is worth nothing the exchange could go bankrupt for various reasons uh it might be fractional reserve um or basically anything and then you're just dependent on that exchange to to hold your coins uh for you uh you're just holding an iou uh so of course if you're not holding bitcoin you're just holding an iou then you're not enjoying any of the benefits of bitcoin you're not enjoying the irs censorship resistance so you're dependent on them to give you or not give your coins or allow you to withdraw to some address but not other address or whatever basically so you're just you're simply holding something which uh which is not bitcoin it's just uh a matter of the price uh what if you really want to to support bitcoin to be part of this of this thing then you have to learn how to hold it yourself learn how to use it i know for some it might not be that easy but this is what you have to do if you really want to to be part of this movement i mean i think what a lot of people don't realize here is um when it comes to digital money there really is no traditional money counterpart here um if you're using a traditional money app uh i don't know what they have by you but in america at least we have things like venmo and paypal and cash app um you can't actually withdraw the money and hold the money yourself um you can't pull it out of the atm but with with bitcoin it's a digital money that you're able to actually withdraw and hold in your own personal wallet right yeah yeah exactly so yeah um basically i think maybe with americans because it's usually easier for for americans so you don't have that much censorship but there are obviously a lot of industries which do have so for a lot of people they don't really feel that sometimes but around the world i think a lot of people can really easily understand why holding your own money is is extremely important um it happens all the time that somebody gets censored from from platform like paypal like venmo whatever for and just loses their money uh gets locked out uh i think even in even in america if they remember correctly this happens quite a lot um so you can't really trust this uh these companies um you they can just decide that okay we don't like you we don't like something that you're doing we see platforms like youtube centering certain opinions certain uh even political opinions or whatever um we just we just can't trust these guys with your money um you just have to to protect it yourself or it will be taken away so bitcoin fixes this but only if you use bitcoin in a way that you're not trusting these third parties that you're not trusting these custodians because you can use bitcoin in the same exact way that you mentioned you can use it in a way where paypal holds it for you and if you do that then you're you're restricted the same exact way you are with traditional digital money um so it's imperative for people to actually pull this bitcoin off of these third-party services and hold it themselves now when we say hold it to themselves um obviously there's a there's a gap here right and so i i think that i think the listeners would probably want to know like um let's let's i guess let's try and let's explain what this means when when they hold it themselves right so you so you have ex what is a what is a private key and what is a public key and how does that have anything to do with bitcoin and and storing it yeah so a private key is just a very very large random number a public key is just a very very large number which is derived from that first private number uh that's that's more or less what it is in the kind of simplest way that i can think of it uh you just with this uh private number you just you can just prove that well with this private number you're just uh let me think how to simply explain it well with this private number you just it's it's basically a secret which you can use to prove uh that you know something that you own something basically that you own this bitcoin uh so this this private number uh you can use it to uh prove that you own some bitcoin uh it's it's basically bitcoin is basically a proper instrument with this uh private number what's the best okay so a bearer instrument is just uh how they explain it in english well a bearing instrument is just uh it's cash basically it's uh something that you can gold is a bear instrument yes yeah there's it's not it's not a iou it's not something it's not an iou yeah exactly it's something that you've built and if you hold it you're the owner yes yeah right and in the case of bitcoin it's not bitcoin that you hold you hold the private key right and the private key is this offline secret that you can generate completely offline you don't have to be connected to the bitcoin network to generate and it gives you access to spend the bitcoin which is located on this global distributed ledger right yeah so we're actually not storing when we take control of our bitcoin we're not storing bitcoin right we're storing this secret uh so that no one else has the secret because if they get the secret then they can spend our bitcoin right yeah we are just locking this bitcoin with some random password kind of and we can unlock it with this password um but yeah private key is kind of a very very long and random password right and then the so so okay so i i think that that's relatively i'm trying to go high level here i'm trying to go high level um to to kind of explain what the goal is here right so so we have that um and then so one way of of doing that and so when the user is interacting with bitcoin they probably won't see that actual process happening right um yeah in bitcoin and bitcoin uh it's it's usually um the private key is derived from these these words these the seed phrase right and the seed phrase uh is is how you basically are keeping that secret safe it's this word phrase a set of backup words that you can go out and keep safe right um so so the question is how do we keep those that secret safe and how do we interact with that secret when we want to actually spend our bitcoin right like that is the ultimate at the end of the day if we're talking high level that's kind of what a big corner is is seeking to do right yeah so high level most bitcoiners don't need to understand how what private key it looks like or the specifics of of the cryptography or or anything like that they need to understand that they have this uh 12 24 words which they need to keep secret uh which basically can be used as their password for their bitcoin uh these 24 awards uh are can give anyone who holds them holds the bitcoin uh if someone gets a hold of them they hold your bitcoin they own your bitcoin uh it's not yours anymore so you have to be extra cautious with with these words uh you shouldn't enter them on some uh random websites uh you shouldn't you shouldn't put them on on an online computer generally uh this is why we have this uh with this hardware wallets or why we recommend using an airgupt computer or what whatever you prefer usually um but yeah you should just be very very careful with those uh it's the the basically if somebody tries to to ask you about that if a website asks you to enter that uh especially now with all these phishing attacks with with this ledger uh hack and all this stuff uh people should be very very careful they need to understand that this uh 24 words are their bitcoin uh and if they lose them if somebody gets access to them they get access to their bitcoin right so so the number one rule is to try you want you want to keep that secret safe right and and the single biggest thing you can do to keep that secret safe is to keep it offline because if you if you have it offline then at least you know someone c n't tack you through the internet and and take your secret they have to actually come into the physical uh wherever it's stored and and take it from you um so now we have the secret we're trying to keep the secret safe um but we need to interact with it we need to be able to send and receive um and and and this is where your software comes in the software you've been working on spectre wallet um so the idea is with spectre just a high level brief intro to spectre is the idea is you run bitcoin core which is your is your is your bitcoin node and you need a bitcoin node to interact with the bitcoin network if you don't use your own node then you're trusting someone else's node and that has two implications you're trusting them to actually verify that it's real bitcoin and it's bitcoin that complies with the consensus rules of the distributed network and the second fold is you're trusting that node with your privacy so it's best case best use is to use your own node so what spectre does is it acts as an interface between the core node you run bitcoin core and then you run spectre and then that interface allows you to basically construct transactions view your balances receive without actually having the secret on the computer right it's an interface to the secret that is being stored off of the computer right yeah yeah exactly so just a way to interact with bitcoin core with air gap signers or offline signers basically uh so if you have these 12 words on this uh on one of these hardware wallets for example uh then how you interact actually how do you use it to sign in uh transactions to view your address uh and view your balances everything like that uh you need a software to to use that actually so spectre is is this piece between the bitcoin network and your signer device so let's talk a little bit about um you know what your goals are with spectre what your goals have been and what your goals are going forward like what what is how do how does specter differentiate itself from other wallets that are on on the market and and how how does it help bitcoiners use use bitcoin in in this you know more self-sovereign way yeah so the the thing with spectre is that we just try to use the the very very powerful uh uh code of bitcoin core so we just bitcoin core is super powerful it's super well maintained and uh well reviewed uh but the ux is very very hard to use uh if you're not an expert if you don't know command line stuff and that's especially bad if you want to use it with something like hardware wallets or stuff like that so what spectre does it just gives you um a very a very convenient interface uh to connect with uh with your hardware wallets and your bitcoin car node uh it doesn't it require you anything like an electron server or stuff like that so you just have your bitcoin core node and your good go um and i think i think the goal is just to make it as easy as possible for people to go from running a full node to using a full node so there's been a lot of talk about people how they run a full node but nobody actually uses it uh that's something i heard a lot over the years and that's something i really want to fix with with spectre yeah so i mean uh when it comes when it comes to using bitcoin and when it comes to life in general um there is a security verse convenience trade-off uh and and that that that security versus convenience trade-off the idea is that if something's more secure it tends to be less convenient for you um and what i love about spectre as a user as a bitcoin user as a spectre user um is that i think it is a fantastic balance of of the that trade-off like i think it it hits the nail on the head where it's it's pretty easy to use it's pretty accessible to use um but it doesn't sacrifice security too much um and i i think that it provides a very nice accessible entry level route into using bitcoin um in a in a better fashion while being able to basically upgrade the user through that process which is like kind of i think exactly what you want to look for in in these self-sovereign uh you know software libraries like this idea that this idea that we can provide an entry-level thing that is accessible but but then allow the user to get more advanced over time um so yeah a key aspect of that with with spectre um is that spectre allows you to basically use your node with your hardware wallets and these hardware wallets um are basically these little purpose-built air air gap computers and there's a bunch of different manufacturers that make them um you can also use an actual air gap computer which is just an offline computer that's not connected to the internet um and and the spectre team themselves has like a do it uh air-gapped little air-gapped computer uh that that acts as as one of these signers as well so the idea with spectre is that you can use it with this plethora of signing devices that hold your secret right so um let's explain i i guess i guess at this point you know if you're new to bitcoin welcome uh it's gonna be a fun rabbit hole i think you're gonna have a really good time uh stay humble just keep learning you know always question everyone um but now we're gonna move to uh the more hot you know deep deep uh conversation and i let's just go let's go hard on on multisig you know what are your current thoughts on multisig um how how do you see this playing out and what do you think carbon bitcoin should be thinking about multi-sig inspector specifically right now yeah i think uh personally i think multisig is the is the way uh to go with bitcoin in the future for any significant amount um i think there is uh still some learning curve and probably there will always be but i think it's it's quite good already and i i think people fear it way too much right now uh more way more than they should uh because they are just like prepared that multisig oh it's super hard it's super uh you could screw it up so badly uh but truly you you just need to give it a try i think you don't have to even put real money there uh just just spin it out and see how it goes so it's not it's it's not that scary anymore i think uh you should still obviously be careful and make sure you understand what you're doing before actually starting to use it with real money but i think it's it's quite easy already what so so the cool thing about spectre is i think when you first get started you can use it single sig um and then you can upgrade to multi-sig as you go go go ahead and i think one of the key things that a lot of people miss here and we see this a lot with the phishing attacks is one of the number one things when it comes to using bitcoin securely or in a more secure fashion is you need to get comfortable with it like you got to just use it you got to send you got to receive you got to back up you got to restore you got to you got to lose a little bit of coin in the process like you got to get you got to get really really comfortable with it and instead of just like using it once putting it away and then looking back at it you know in 10 years like you got to actually get comfortable with it um so before we jump into um why multisig over single sig what is the benefit of multi-sig over single city well it basically the biggest thing in my opinion is that it allows you to screw up without screwing up without actually screwing up so even if you lose one key even if your uh get you get compromised in in a way uh you can still it's not catastrophic you can still recover the funds there is no uh risk so this is the the most important thing i think uh besides it's it's more resilient for against against tax uh if somebody steals your your hardware wallet if your house goes on fire uh anything like that it just gives you way more resilience basically so with single sig we have one private key um or one master private key with multisig we basically have a threshold of them so we can a common a common setup is like a three of five and the idea there in the three of five is you basically need um you don't need all five of those keys but you you can't just spend it with one key either so it gives you this creativity this ability this redundancy um that isn't possible really without bitcoin like bitcoin is the first money that gives you this capability like gold doesn't have this capability cash does not have this capability um you could even imagine a situation where you're storing keys um in different countries in different jurisdictions you know maybe in the future on different planets and an attacker would have to go and actually compromise the threshold the acquired threshold of those keys in order to get it um in terms of errors you see that situation where you can have one air hold it you know hold one key a lawyer hold one key uh you hold one key um and and you can have these situations where you need a group of people to basically come together to spend the fun so it gives you a lot of flexibility uh redundancy additional security the main negative that people talk about is complexity and and i think you guys have done a great job so far this year and other teams in the multi-sig space to make it way way way easier to use multisig and i think that is very underappreciated like people don't realize just a year ago um we basically only had electrum for user facing multisig and now there's like five or six different projects that are like leading the way here and shout out to all those teams that's fantastic um so in the complexity department the big fudd we always hear and i think you hear it a lot is this idea that you need to have this summary file that basically dictates what all the keys are um let's say you have a three of five uh if you lose one of those keys you're going to need a summary file right there's this an additional backup that you're gonna have to you're gonna have to download yeah yeah yes i just wrote about it basically in the thread on twitter a few days ago i even just explained all this thing uh because yeah this sounds maybe scary to to some that you need this extra thing but in fact this is just uh a file which you can save on paper on pdf i haven't heard like about people uh putting it at the etching that the qr code of it on on a metal uh on metal basically so you can do it in in various ways uh you can keep it with each private key i'm sorry which mnemonic backup more correctly and yeah and that's and that's it you don't need to worry about it that much and it's technically easier to back up than just a private key because it's not a it's not a security risk it's not a pure security risk it's mostly a privacy risk someone can look up your balances and your transactions they can't actually spend funds with it that privacy element of compromise obviously adds an additional security risk but it's not actually a funds risk the other thing people don't realize is is if you lose a key in a single sig setup you're fighting anyway you're screwed anyway so the idea here is that in multisig if you don't lose a key you actually probably don't even need that backup file that backup file is still best you know practice you should use that backup you should have it just in case um but if you don't lose a key you probably don't even need that backup file so it doesn't actually i i don't think it's a real i don't think it's a valid complaint to multisig like i i think you just no no not not versus a single six so you still get the same the same thing with uh uh three or three multisig or one or one of one basically uh you just don't get like the full benefit of multisig that the full potential if you don't keep this backup but you don't have to keep this backup if you secure your keys properly you just need to you just need it in order to get more security out of your setup out of your multisig setup right yes so i mean all things equal um now that we have the ux more laid out uh multi-sig for most people does seem like the way forward right it's for larger amounts um i guess the main trade-off would be uh and maybe it's a little bit more cumbersome there's more things to secure right and i i guess one of the other issues is is that there's like this nuance here with like what um what threshold do you use do you have a preference on you know i'm not asking what you use specifically but like what like what what should people be thinking about when they're thinking about thresholds should they be thinking about two of three three or five you know yeah i think you i don't know three or three or five are is the best option uh more than five cosigners is just uh is just basically it's not it's a non-standard script so you can have up to 15 with bitcoin uh but more than fives a lot of mining poles will just ignore the transaction they will not mine it so it will be kind of annoying uh but again possible if you are like but but i don't think there is any reason if you're not like a giant company holding billions or something like that i don't know uh there's no point in more than five cosigners anyway i think for for most people uh two of three is is great uh because you just need free devices you just need three locations uh the important thing is that just doing multisig and if you're just keeping everything together in the same place uh you're making kind of a security theater uh and there is not much benefit from from them from using the multisig uh so you really need to to distribute your your keys in different places in order to really make it useful and not just a security theater so yeah if you distribute them uh poorly like if you have them you could actually reduce your security right if like i don't know like if you if it's a three of five and you don't secure three of them well because yeah yeah if you use two or three and you keep one yourself and give two to like to some banks or something then it's pro you know in some safe deposit then again you're not really fully self-sovereign because they can just lock you out of your access to two of your keys and then you're screwed um so we have services in the bitcoin space now that offer co-signing services that basically offer a third party to hold one of your keys and sign your transactions for you and hold your hand do you have any thoughts on uh bitcoiners using those services yeah ignoring privacy issue which of course is must be a problem with that i think it's pretty it's pretty great so i think uh for it's generally so having one key uh which is not your problem kind of and you have a company to manage that uh is quite useful for most people uh again it saves you the headache of okay where am i going to to keep it safe somewhere so you have this company which can't really hurt you but uh you know can help you in in recovery so i think it's generally for most users a good idea uh if they don't care much about their privacy implications at least that's the key enough right yeah it's always a trade-off with everything in securing your bitcoin always a trade-off no matter what and what's the privacy trade-off there for the listeners yeah sure so the privacy trade-off is that the company knows your your multi-sig setup so they know how much money you own uh do you have one key which is also kind of a security implication but they can't really steal the funds with just one key so it's not that terrible uh but in terms of the privacy they they know everything about the wallet and if they do also some kyc or anything then they also know how much you hold and what's your identity i mean i think the way to look at it right is i think uh you know it's strictly better than a custodial situation where in a custodial situation uh the the custodian obviously knows all your privacy like you have to trust them with your privacy but they also have control of your funds and with this um you know the two companies that come to mind unchained capital and casa um they basically hold your hand for you and provide this nice easy environment uh where you then your trade-off is you're trusting them with your privacy but they make it easier for you and it's strictly better than uh a custodian right it could be a very nice it could be a good stepping ground for someone who finds themselves on exchange right now wants to move off of an exchange and then maybe get used to learning how to use spectre and doing in a self-sovereign way going forward would you agree yeah yeah i think that's that's a very good option um yeah so i i think obviously i think doing it yourself if you can is is way better but for those who who can't or to to worried about that for for any reason i think that's pretty good solution awesome awesome um so i mean what are we looking forward to uh 2021 what did what are we excited about with bitcoin uh let's transition this conversation a little bit yeah sure so i'm really excited about taproot uh because it's it means quite a bit for multic privacy uh so currently with multisig when you're using it uh everybody can know that you're using a multisig pretty much and taproot improves on that a lot uh there is also well uh when you're using snore and everything uh which obviously will take more time than just have taproot activated on bitcoin because uh wallet softwares will need to support it uh wallet uh so hardware wallets will need to support it etc which will take a while probably uh but it's still you know it all starts with earning that enabled on bitcoin besides that sorry you think we're going to get taproot this year i'm quite sure we will have that but you can't really tell i think i think it's it's getting like it's pretty much ready i think do you think it's really i think i think we're going to have that do you think users should wait to experiment with multisig for taproot or should they start today no i don't think they need to wait because even when as i said even if we get upgrade this year and even that is not sure then until wallet softwares and hybrid wallets uh actually support uproot and services support uproot uh then it will take a while and you know and i i wouldn't recommend starting to use taproot and the implementations from day one because you're still using something so new uh with with real funds it's kind of risky in my opinion to you know because there might be bugs it might not be as well tested with with with real funds uh you know so i think waiting for that will if well if you want to wait a few years then okay but if you but you can't expect it like to be a a matter of months uh weight so i do think people should uh experiment with multisig already if they want to uh because just waiting will be a few years in my opinion especially if uh if if someone can't read code i think and verify for themselves i mean in general best practice is probably to to take a more wait and see approach on on pretty much everything in the bitcoin space right like let things get tested out let things get pressure tested uh let real funds be at risk and see if anyone else loses their money um going whole hog into something new in in bitcoin land would you agree yes yes for sure let people risk that money and basically and see and then you know if if you're not technical especially then let people use it and then see how to continue and then the other thing is with taproot which i i don't think um you know i'm also very much you know looking for a taproot on a taproot bowl i think it's going to take a little bit longer than people expect but i think one thing that people hoping for privacy improvements in the multi-stick front because of taproot um like i mean adoption is going to be slow in the beginning so just the act of using taproot is going to be a heuristic uh that's you're going to be one of the really enthusiast bitcoiners that are in there in the beginning yeah that that will also be kind of a problem in the beginning which is another reason uh you shouldn't wait for taproot for experimenting with multisig uh because yeah again it will be a few years until it's really ready in my opinion for real for real use uh both because of development and you know privacy implications and all that basically will just take a few years um i'm just all over the place uh so i apologize for that ben but i'm enjoying my time with you and uh we do have a captive audience here uh so just to go back to like a little bit more practical and actionable advice uh i tend to tell people you know that i've never used bitcoin in a self-sovereign way um to you know download a mobile wallet like blue wallet or samurai wallet and and send small amount of funds to it uh you know maybe back it up delete it restore it from seed words uh would you do you agree that that's like a good um you know nice little dip your toes in the water kind of way of dealing with it or do you have a different process in mind no i i definitely agree with that i think well the the first step is to get bitcoin if you if you're a complete noob then you probably start with an exchange holding it for you or something uh then you probably should start experimenting with some mobile wallet or something like that and then really really get comfortable with it with the concept of securing your 12 words uh the backup and learn how to restore that learn how to wha what is a bitcoin address uh how to handle that how to send money uh how to receive money um then you know then you can progress to to other stuff when you really feel comfortable with that but the number one thing with bitcoin security i think is just don't don't screw yourself up so you're basically you're your worst enemy i've seen way more people uh lose money because they screwed themselves uh then they've seen people getting screwed by an an attacker so i would just be very very careful and make sure that you're comfortable and know what you're doing so you don't feel if you feel like okay i have no idea what i'm doing then you probably shouldn't do it i just just make sure that you're you feel uh like you that you feel comfortable with your setup and then you can progress to two real funds yeah i mean i think 99 of lost bitcoin has to do with user error uh probably uh i mean that i that i don't have that that number's not a hard number that's just a gut but that that's what i've noticed from my experience um and it's really easy to um just you want to be comfortable i think ultimately there's no such thing as a perfect setup consider using multiple setups and you just want to get comfortable you want to get comfortable over time um and not rush into anything it's very easy to basically technical fomo your way into too complex of a setup and then you find yourself um in a situation where you're panicking and in that situation if if you feel like something's going wrong try and push back against the panic take a deep breath you know don't like make you know rapid moves you know just to take a deep breath maybe reach out to your bitcoin or friends um but you know before you do anything too drastic because i've seen people then dig themselves farther into um farther into a mess yes yeah exactly just reach out to somebody and ask questions exactly um so we have caitlyn in the comments um she's asking uh in terms of signing devices for three of five spectre setup do you have uh any recommendations or preferences there um i guess again it depends on your level of expertise i think 305 because there are not many so many great signing devices for 305 then it's probably more for experts but generally the things that i think are pretty nice to use currently uh there is obviously cold card which i really like um kobo is is very nice um if again if you want to build your own uh how to wallet then spectre diy is also great for that um and also uh it's not yet supported inspector from multisig but there is uh beatbox2 which will be supported for multisig also soon and have quite a very good uh multi-sig support and besides that if you feel comfortable with an aircraft computer or something then you can use a bitcoin core on an aircraft computer and that's really great too um or some you know some um electrum or something on a mobile phone even or something like that as an as an airgap mobile phone signer like even a pine phone or whatever um but in terms of like in terms of hardware wallets um i yearn well you can reuse you know you can use two cold cards or whatever uh but it's generally not that recommended uh because you're again you're putting quite some trust in the manufacturer so yeah i think cold card kobo um beatbox spectre diy or some air gap computer with bitcoin core are great options to to explore and just see what what works for you yeah i mean there's some nuance there right because um obviously in a single sig you have more trust in whatever manufacturer signing device you're going with um and there's ways to reduce that trust things like providing your own entropy dice rolls uh passphrases other advanced user features um but one of the beauties of multisig is when you combine multiple signing devices and you reduce the trust in any individual signing device so if you have a duplicate in there then obviously there's increased trust in that duplicate but if the thresholds are three of five and you only have two duplicates then it still needs to cut you they an attacker would still need to compromise um a separate device a third device but i do tend to agree with you that especially now um when you're when ultimately at the end of the day your security comes down to your signing devices and it is additive of them combined but they are you know your last line of defense um you are kind of stretching yourself a little bit when you get to these these larger threshold setups uh compared to something like a two of three and that will change i think you know we we've seen the hardware wallet space the signing space specter duo wise his brand is pretty much brand new uh cold card is a relatively new entry like we're seeing them them improve and standardize so that they can use all these different you know that they can use spectre and plug and play really easily so i think it will get better very quickly i think you know 2021 is really like 2020 is the year that multisig became easy and 2021 is the year it becomes mainstream uh i'm in bitcoin at least um and one of the big things that i think a lot of people aren't really watching right now is the old phone as a signer um i think if if if you can make it pretty easy to use like an old cheap android phone as one of the signers then that kind of it's just like a nice little additive bonus to scan qr codes and do the psbt and i'm kind of pumped on that idea as a concept yeah yeah definitely um i need to recheck like what up which options are available for what mobile phones but that's really a nice option too um so i mean i love this conversation ben i really glad you got to join me on this one because i'm a huge fan of your work and i'm especially a huge fan of your ship posting um i'm getting the wrap-up signal here uh so i just wanted uh do you have any last words for the listeners before we we go out uh yeah sure so first of all thank you for inviting me and just yeah just make sure i really recommend you to at least try out to to hold your own keys to use your own node uh take your time with it uh play with it before you're doing anything rushed or anything but i really recommend to to explore that uh you really should try to do that big thanks to bitcoin magazine thank you again ben and cheers to bitcoin 12 more years let's go cheers thanks