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make your school room like the world that's a quote from emerson hi i'm tammy rose and this is concord days and i have with me today phil lipshevitz my co-producer hi tammy thank you for having me today i'm sitting in the seat that's usually occupied by richard smith and i am so thrilled to be here because uh our guest today is the one and only lee wright lee is a um a real friend of the history folks in history he is also the proprietor of uh the history list and several other history oriented endeavors here in the new england area and a really great guy and a good friend of mine lee thank you too kind and looking forward to the discussion and getting into how we can all make history more accessible to folks and get more people engaged exactly exactly so lee can you start us off by sort of talking about how you even got into the history world sure so i like every other kid you know growing up right you you you know you were into d-day for example or the western movies or whatever but it really wasn't until moving to new england about 16 years ago and buying an old house uh how it stays to 1780 and uh was curious about who owned the house and so went down to the local historical society and and here was a box that had the name of the the first person who the person who had this house built uh and then the next question was you know maybe i should go to some of these meetings and uh you know what's the website well we really don't we really don't have a website and so forth and so i thought well you know i can help there and and i don't have any technical skills but a little familiarity with the web and so you know we build a website and and one thing led to another and i and i realized that there were things that i took for granted as someone who's done a bunch of startups involved in startup world tech world that really weren't being used in the way they could be in history and so another one of those encounters led to the history list which is a platform for publishing information about history related sites and events which in a normal time is uh is helpful because there are lots of lots of things going on especially in new england it's a it's a platform that's national in scope uh and and what prompted me to do that was uh we lived near the wayside inn and i was i think the first year was here driving past and here was a plywood sign that had been propped up uh near near the road which said uh you know fife and drum weekend something or other right and and i went and it was a fabulous event it's just spectacular and i i liked the fact that it was not packed with crowds but at the same time you know i knew that many more people would be there if they just knew about it but you know how many people are driving down that road and happened to see that sign right and and so i started the history list as a way for anyone not just an institution but anyone to be able to list events and sites and so forth and then a couple of years later i went to an event at mit they were hosting it not the sponsors but providing the venue and it's called bar camp boston and it's a it's a format that's used that's been used in the tech world for years where as someone describes this kind of a casual conference it's it's one that goes completely against the conventions of uh a normal conference certainly a normal academic conference and here's the way it works a couple people say let's get together let's create a forum where we can talk and share ideas and so forth and then um it is off to the races it's it's a tremendously democratic approach and at this event uh you know there are some people that had posted on a wiki in advance here's what i'm going to talk about does anyone want to join me at the at the event there was a big grid and there were times and and rooms and people would express interest in certain topics and those topics that looked popular were the ones that got it got slotted in there but but there was no committee reviewing proposals there were no proposals right there was no theme it was it was a conference that was created by the people who showed up that day and and whatever they were interested in and and so you know you would here's one fellow says i'm going to talk about an open source approach to redistricting i think that's fascinating i never thought of that uh and then i go into one session and um here's uh stephen wolfram a famous physicist and the founder for alpha just another person right presenting no speaker badges no you know special lounge for speakers and so forth so that led me to create uh history camp so across those things uh there was you know working with local historical society and then the history list and then history camp and uh that that kind of those are the things then from which i went on and did did some other things yeah no i i absolutely love that and and speaking as a person who has an mba and has been in the business world like i i applaud your resourcefulness of connecting the two because i i definitely um i've definitely seen a lot of the history world where it's it's stuck or it's it's it's housed in academia or you know people are um focused on you know you know putting their museums or their historical house forward and if especially if they're not for profits they don't have time to sort of look at a bigger picture and they don't have the time the resources um and you know if you're working on your phd or you're trying to get published like everybody has their own individual for focus but but to to use like a boot camp like you said to harness the the power of all these people it helps to actually build a community and you've been doing that several years yeah yeah my sense was that there were there were people who were were passionate about a topic but they didn't have a classroom to present to and so this is people like john bell and sam foreman and liz covert who were the uh the folks i approached initially about doing something that was that became history camp and i i talked to john first and if people don't know john in his uh his site boston 1775 in his book uh the uh let's see uh the road to concord they they certainly should about the cannons right yeah yeah and um john said let me think about it i saw him in a later event he's like you know let's try it and uh so we we then uh connected with sam and liz and like well let's just let's post some things online and let's see what happens and so in in 2014 we had the first history camp boston it took place in in cambridge and it it sold out and and the goal there was let's let's see if we can if this format works my feeling was it should there's no reason it shouldn't and and the fact that everyone you know there's such a great response uh was certainly indicative uh to me that that there's interest in this and i did i did a survey afterwards and if i hadn't done the survey myself i would have i would have doubted the numbers that came back but when you ask things uh people questions like um how do you like it would you recommend it to a friend of yours that liked history how interested in are you and and maybe a second one if we're able to do that the numbers are just off the charts and so i had i had approached this just as kind of kumbaya right it was you know we just kind of uh threw money into a pot did it to break even and uh and it was it was pretty successful i was exhausted at the end of it so when people said shoot this again i said i you know i don't i don't know let me let me let me uh get a couple good night's sleep and it we did go on and so we had history camp boston uh there was history camp iowa that was created by uh an individual uh who'd heard about history camp boston and then he reached out and worked with the state historical society there and others uh there's the pioneer valley uh history camp which is done by the pioneer valley history network uh and and cliff out there who does a great job and then there was history camp colorado which is done outside of denver and and here's exactly the kind of thing that i wanted to have happen uh so i kind of had some connections that led the individual in iowa and then and then cliff and western massachusetts to kind of learn and hear about this but here was an individual who uh heard about history camp boston on a podcast name was liz kobar's podcast and she checked it out and she uh she said to her husband um you know you love music i love history let's go to boston for the weekend we'll spend one day doing history camp and another day at the boston orchestra and so they did that and uh uh that lady's name is carrie lund and she went back and she created history camp colorado and she did a fabulous job and and and the fact that she did that and then the the subject matter for example at history camp colorado versus for example history camp boston fascinating differences a real passionate audience there in each of these in each of these places uh and and then carrie went on and she did that again and again and then later moved to virginia which of course my question was you know how soon are we doing history camp virginia and and it went beyond it went from that discussion to to saying you know if if this is going to grow um we probably do need more than just an individual uh in a given city working on this because we've done other inquiries but it's kind of heavy lift for most folks and you say you know you're gonna run everything through your own bank account and you probably come out even but if you don't you know it comes out of your account uh you know that that's a little off-putting to folks and it it just seemed for so many reasons that it would be a good thing if there were more of these and so uh in 2019 we created a non-profit called the pursuit of history and we were all queued up we were going to have a great history camp boston in 2020 in march of 2020 perfect timing exactly unfortunately it was not early march it was uh mid-march and uh of course we had to cancel it uh but but our plan for last year was to do all of the ones that were regularly done and to add history camp uh philadelphia and to do history camp virginia we've done it originally in kind of the capital uh area we were going to move to richmond and it was also going to be a kind of a push around around fundraising so we in april so that was in march when we canceled in april we started a a thursday night discussion series with uh noted uh authors and historians and and and that has has has been very popular and grown and then in august we did something called america's summer road trip which was you know there are lots of people doing you know assume something or other right and and they're great yeah what we wanted to do was we wanted to address the fact that there's a lot of people who love history that would normally you know load up the car and drive to historic sites for the summer right and and visiting and likewise you've got these great historic sites that are where no one's visiting right because of what's going with cobit and so the concept between beyond america's summer road trip was to was to to to connect audiences to historic sites and and to do that across a variety of sites from well-known such as minivan national park to um to less well-known sites such as chaco canyon uh and and others so we started at 9 00 a.m in the morning and we went to 9 00 p.m at night every hour we're at a different historic site and we just had such a great response to that and so you know and it's it's still up right so there's still a website and you can go and there's video and it's a great way to as you said explore sites that you know about and then ones that you would have never come across like you would on a road trip where you're like hey we're you know 10 miles away from this amazing birthplace so let's go there yeah i'm glad you mentioned that because one of the things we're trying to do is do a better job of making everything that we do available to anyone anywhere and so all of our thursday night talks are available at historycamp.org uh in addition to being live streamed on thursday nights at eight eastern uh and then yes the american summer road trip all those videos are are up at americasummerroadtrip.org so you know that leads us up to this year and we were optimistic that we were going you know again we were going to have the chance to get the folks together last march we were going to have 550 people at history camp boston it sold out we had people who were flying in from california flying in from new mexico for a one day event god right yeah that's a real testament to to the the quality of the event and the passion that people have in the topic uh we're gonna have more than 50 different sessions throughout the day so you know we started looking at this year and kerry made the observation you know it it's not clear at all that we're going to be able to get a lot of people together in an enclosed you know space and one of the things people love about history cam is meeting other people with the same passion right so the density right really matters getting people together right it's that vibe uh so on may 15th do we really not announce this broadly but on may 15th we're going to do history camp america and it's going to be an online event so uh that and that sounds very very exciting well we're gonna work so we're gonna include some of the things that we learned with american summer road trip where we go to his historic sites and then we're also gonna have a variety of talks um as with as with any of the history camps we're gonna cover a wide range of topics uh there won't be a specific theme uh and it should be great fun but again trying to figure out ways to make it easy for people to engage uh engage with history because we know that people you know so many people are interested in history but but sometimes it's just a little bit off-putting maybe the way it's presented or the way people are invited or not into that conversation or if they know that they're invited if they know that it's free or accessible or you know have like how do you get in the know if you aren't you know say you know enrolled at a university or near a historic spot or you know if you're a big fan of you know stuff happening in concord but you live on the other side of america how do you know how to even get on the right list exactly and sorry yeah phil answer go ahead i was going to say you know interestingly you know a lot of times you think of a house and like a little historic house or a big historic house and you know i think sometimes people are kind of like you know so-so but in one of the history camps uh and i forget which one because i've you know been had the pleasure of attending several of these uh was uh the gentleman who is the site manager i think it was for a house in dedham and you know the the talk he gave was wasn't the the usual so and so lived here here's the furniture here's this it was on um a lot of markings that were found on the house and basically you know i think it was more of a theory type of a talk but again it's connections for building the house to be witch proof or spirit proof you know again not something that you would necessarily come across by reading the website or something else but it was just something so interesting that like you know again if these walls could talk exactly and i think that was about the the fairbanks house yes yes which is one of the oldest structures in the in the country and you know phil you're you're exactly right one of the things that that's fascinating about that that story uh and and and this also came out in an interview with uh marilyn roach who is one of the foremost authorities on that period and who's spoken at at several history camps um you know we we today kind of scoff at this idea of you know who would ever believe in these things right uh and and and who would ever do these things like putting a shoe here the markings here and so forth to to keep the the witches away or if you find that kind of evidence like why would they do it you know it's not that they're foolish or whatever but like if something looks very intentional and you just want to know the reason behind it exactly and as it turns out even the most learned of the day believed that the e things called witches these beings existed and so it puts it in a completely different light when you think about things that were not um not kish as they are maybe today in some ways in in salem or whatever around halloween or kind of that whole industry but but actually it's kind of deeply held beliefs about the way the world worked and one of the things i think is is fascinating about history is to think about the people at that time so for example uh you know it's it's it's pretty much impossible uh to imagine what someone such as george washington did right and the risk he took and all the sacrifices he made it's much easier to imagine what it might have been like to be a shop owner right a farmer uh the spouse of a farmer a a a kid working as a as a printer's devil right in a print shop and so for example there's this great book called voices of 1776 which is a diary entries and letters and so forth and it's just it's just so interesting to again read these very personal accounts what people are experiencing because the other thing that we all take for granted and is so difficult to do is remind ourselves that that that none of this was preordained right um the the uh you know british were the the most uh powerful fighting force on on the planet and you know to have these uh these these this small rebel rebellion uh these folks who call themselves patriots right to go up against that and even in the early days right it was expected this wouldn't last very long at all um so think about the choices that people were making in that context right which side were you on didn't you take sides and so forth it makes it so much more interesting and and today there's we have you know there's some that take great comfort in saying oh you know this is right this is wrong this is what you should do this is what you shouldn't do just not clear at the time right how all this was going to work out it's never clear for humans and and i feel like we we lose the peace of the we lose the threat of the story that that there are legends and there are people that get elevated into you know otherworldly status because they managed to do great acts right but as we're taught a lot of things in school of you know george washington was this amazing person and you know and and like some of it some of it's true some of it ends up being legend some of it ends up being um just sort of blown out of proportion and and when you're in a room full of history nerds you know or in a community of history nerds you can sort of say well it didn't exactly happen like that or you know like this this was the prevailing belief of the at the time and i i love your mention of like trying to take it down to the average person because you know like you mentioned you know buying an old house i have a house from you know 1923 and i'm always looking and i don't know if it can be called like forensic architecture but like you're always looking for these little details and you're like oh why did the carpenter cut it like this why was this weird thing in the corner designed that way you know and and this the like a shoe in the wall or whatever the superstition was maybe it wasn't one of the strongest beliefs that people would talk about and go to religious meetings over but maybe there's a superstition where you're like nobody's gonna see this if i hide this little thing here and that's just a secret between me and the house and then you discover it as you're you know redoing the house or you know um investigating so yeah yeah well so to go back to washington for just exam is just another example you know there's the crossing of the delaware it was extremely difficult at that time it was washington had failed many times this was kind of a last ditch effort there were actually planned three crossings uh and and washington was the only one that made it across that night um and and uh you know just in in the in the matter of the crossing and waiting and so forth two men froze to death it's it's easy to imagine yourself as one of those men right poorly shot poorly clothed and and and you there uh thinking that it's days before your enlistment or whatever is up and you're gonna go back to your farm and and here in these brutal conditions that night uh you know trying to then tr tried on to uh to uh to trenton um and and to have this this crucial turning point um again you know it's not it in that case it's not the heroic figure we see in the in the famous painting in the boat uh but it's one of the hundreds of men that was that was there feeling like this is what he needed to do at that time and and probably thinking very fondly of getting home soon and frankly one of the reasons that i love um a series like drunk history you know or people who try to approach it from a you know comedic sense is sort of like it takes a lot of the of that blown up um ideals out out of the picture and just sort of says look this is what his men were thinking like it was cold and they were like you know were they were they wanting to get on that boat were they you know how were they feeling and were they were they scoffing were they you know like what were the what were the dynamics that we can you know laugh about a little but also like cry about like freezing to death like how you know what a what a miserable situation to get yourself in and not knowing you know if you're on the side of right not knowing if any of this is going to succeed you know it's it's taking it taking it back down to the the the average person participating in a great moment in history you know whether they realize it or not exactly exactly well let's use another example of kind of how to engage people with history and and and phil it comes from from one of the great events that that you did in one of your previous careers associated there with minuteman national park and i went one time photographed uh did a video of pretty much the uh the reenactment that took place and at the end of it one of the individuals dressed as a british officer on a horse uh uh came to the audience and and basically challenged people and said you know you you talk about taxation without representation well what taxes were in place then and and in the back and forth was this great dynamic and a lot of people got schooled that that day well i posted that to facebook and it was fascinating the reaction um you know i think a lot of people learned some things in that video that they that they were different than what they they thought they knew um rather than what they what they believed previously uh and some kind of took umbrage almost as if this one this was a a modern-day uh british general you know kind of yelling at the colonists or something uh but but but a great example i'm a huge believer in in the value of people going to the sites of of of seeing those sites come to life in the form of of reenactors uh you know historical interpreters and so forth i think it does so much to help people get them out of as much as possible get them out of their their current day framework of thinking about things and imagine what it was like then um there was another uh in in western massachusetts there's uh a shaker community and the name escapes me but phil's gonna remember i'll bet um put him on the spot it depends on which one there's the one in hancock all the way western mass but then there's that's it that's it and uh there was a young woman who was giving a tour and uh she was talking about some of the things that the the farmers did and um my my dad uh grew up on a farm in uh in iowa and they had uh all of the the the the manpower the horsepower was indeed uh men and horses there were no tractors there was no no internal combustion engines it was not much different than than what uh the farmers went through and the way in which they planted their crops and and harvested and so forth this young lady was explaining and and at one point i don't think she really intended this but there was kind of that thought of you know oh uh you know they really you know those those uh you know kind of silly farmers or whatever they did thus and such and well what we forget is um you know those practices were that were the best known at the time you know it's not unlike the the the horrible uh you know bleeding of washington right to try to cure him we look in retrospect and we think why would you have you know pints of blood drained from you uh how is that a curative but but that's that's what that was the prevailing wisdom at the time and it's it's such a lesson for us because there's a tremendous conceit right about how smart we are we're going to look back right at some point dozen years you know 100 years and say i can't believe they did that to cure cancer right for example right you know one of the things um just you had kindly mentioned about my previous life you know i i think i got acquainted with you initially through the history list and you know really what a resource that is you know again uh i worked for a large historical uh entity but there were um you know there are hundreds i would assume of little sites throughout the country that i think truly benefit by your labors and you know i think it's really important that the work that you do you know getting this out and and one of the things i have to say is like you do this all it's all free i mean it's such a resource i mean if anybody has any inkling to learn anything about the community that they live in just go to the history list site and you know just put in your town and you're bound to find a historical site that may be listed there as well as an event that's going to be coming up you know virtual probably today but you get my point i mean it's it's such a wonderful uh way for people to you know do this and you know i think um i'll speak for myself but you know i think a lot of people in the history field are kind of envious of you because you're doing this you're in this world that i think a lot of people really want to be in because it's you know it you know we have to pay bills and things and you know sometimes we have to do things you know do jobs that may not be the thing we're passionate about but what i have truly loved about you know what you do especially the history camp is you know again all these people that come and present i mean there are writers there are photographers there are you know amateurs you know historians there are professional historians you have it all and it's it's such a great opportunity as you mentioned before about getting all these people together in one place and you know i think that part of it that goes with that is encouraging the next generation so you know you know my my hat's off to you because again i say you're doing something i think that a lot of people really truly would like to do and you know the other thing to keep in mind is the service that you i don't know if i call it service but you know the the you know what you perform provide there's a lot of podcasts out there now you know again like you you're just mentioning before and chris liz cohort and things but you know you're doing a lot of the ground work for a lot of things that need to be done and get done and you know my hat's off to you and and i i have to say it's been a real pleasure knowing you and volunteering with you and working with you on some projects and you know i just i just had to say that you know it's i i'm a little lazy it's like a rock star for the historical world exactly you know i i really appreciate your everything you've done from coming to multiple history camps videotaping those streaming those making those available uh in your in your previous career making it easy for someone such as me to come in photograph video and so on and i i think that there is um there's there's a tremendous opportunity that people have you know there's a type of history that is extremely popular and that so many people are engaged with but that that many maybe in the traditional history community don't think about and that is genealogy and and you see all of these people contributing right to the various sites or find a grave or all these sorts of things right all the effort uh that people go to to learn more about kind of where they came from and that that we can provide a little more context for that right so so it's their family right and there was immigration or whatever um what's the story of the community in which they settled right what's the story of the community in which they live today and there's so much overlap exactly exactly so phil it's very kind of you to say i what i would encourage people to do is you know if they do check out the history list and there are sites that they love and they're not listed there they should just add them so it's kind of like wikipedia in that regard exactly you know it's it's a way that people say you know this is something that more people should know about right i went i enjoyed it how do we get more people know about it then just you know add it that would be great yeah and and can i sort of ask a little bit about how either how the sausage is made and how are you monetizing things and sort of how do you keep afloat without like going crazy and get all of your needs met and you know how do you how do you have you structured that so so a couple of things one is um i have a full-time job and so that that helps you know keep the lights on and so forth um when i started the history list i was looking for ways to cover the cost of of the software development and hosting and so forth and i had i had some ideas they were not those didn't pan out and and so what i ended up doing was uh i i sold a t-shirt that said history nerd on it and and this was this was from uh some feedback that i had seen on some of those surveys as mentioned earlier from history camp i thought that you know people who have this passion if you have a passion about you know the patriots or nascar or something like that there are places to go right there's there's ways in which you can express that passion and so i thought well let's at least let's create a t-shirt says history nerdfighter and and that was a few years ago and and today um there are um hundreds of different items that are offered through the history list store and and the proceeds of those offset the cost of the history list and we're going to be investing more in the history list uh this later this year we're going to do some other things with the platform and and get in and and try to get to the point where it's easier for people to tell us about their trips and to post trip information and so forth um on the history camp side it was it was really not sustainable to have just an individual you know once a year kind of for a few weeks trying to trying to pull off this event and then hoping if we want these to spread that they're that they're similar individuals in other communities right so there are few but but that's but an individual such as kerry is is quite the rarity and so that led us to set up uh the pursuit of history and so we've we've gone out members love people to check out the pursuit of history.org that's the organization that supports history camps that's the organization behind america's summer road trip and uh they'll be behind history camp that's behind history camp online history camp america coming up on may 15. um there is there are a couple of things that we're going to do this year as part of that in order to try to get to a sustainable nonprofit organization and and one of those with history camp america we're going to we're going to do something that we've talked about we talked about in the context of the roadshow we didn't we didn't get it done excuse me road trip um and so for this event on may 15 there's going to be a box of stuff so it's going to be a virtual event there's going to be a box of stuff and so when you register there's a there's a cost to registration and you're going to get a box of history related merchandise and literature and so forth as part of it and so we think that'll be a fun part um we're going to do something that i've wanted to do for years and and we've not talked publicly about it but we're going to have a uh a specially commissioned piece of art that's going to come out in a atter of weeks and it is there's a limited edition of 200 of them uh it's screen printed it was like a 12 color screen printed by hand piece of art and it features a historic site and i'll leave it at that uh but that's that's some that's another way that we want to have we want to do things that are aligned with the mission that are economically sustainable or that that provide funding for other activities so in that case it's uh you know the the pricing of that because the artist donated some of their time and so forth um that will provide some additional funding for some of the things for which there is no other costs associated and then finally you know as with every non-profit organization there are some folks who are going to say you know i like what you're doing right so i'm gonna i'll sign up as a member but i'd like to do something more so yesterday we were talking to a lady who has been a big fan of of history camp and and she said you know i like what you're doing and tell me what your plans are and tell me how i can help and so thankfully uh with her support we feel like we've now got the pieces in place that we can do history camp america on may on uh on may 15. uh so it's so it's all those things right there for me it's i got a full-time job for the the history list we've got some merchandise for history camp we're going to have a model for this online history camp where it it pays for itself and helps pay for some of the time uh behind it and then other things that are either a fundraiser explicitly or people just reaching out and saying i value what you're doing yourself yeah yeah no like private grants and people who are recognizing that hey i want to do something more than just beyond membership and i have the means to actually make something happen i like i love seeing that because i i feel like a lot of the grant um you know the the highly structured grant competitions have suddenly changed because of you know the government's losing money or you know a lot of not-for-profits they can't open so they can't offer whatever you know stipends or any any programs that they would normally have for students or whatever so i i think that it's really admirable that you're being so creative to go to all the different things to make sure you don't have all your eggs in one basket well thanks i one comment on on traditional grants you know the things that we're doing pretty much everything is non-traditional right so the very idea that you could enable somebody you know you could create a literal forum where somebody could come up and speak without them having you know submitted a paper and their credentials and had it reviewed by a committee you know that is anathema to to many individuals and yeah uh and in fact i i won't mention the name but there's a national organization that uh reached out at one point and said we do these annual awards um and unlike the academy awards they do several dozen so it's not there's not this fixed number but they say you know we heard about history camp and so i sent them um hundreds of pages of information and uh and and they came back and then the the little thing was you know we don't see how you have a process that ensures good history never mind the fact that the events are sold out that people travel across the country for these and that more people are attending them every year um it was essentially a process question that comes from that traditional point of view and who defines good history and why are the gatekeepers so invested in the current structure that exists yeah and so what we talk about at history camp is is we say you know if you're in a session that's not living up to your expectations then just quietly get up and go to another session because there's multiple sessions in each time slot so there's kind of a free market response there rather than than the gatekeeper up front but the reason i mentioned that is that we you know the traditional grant processes you basically go to you know use you submit a grant and again a traditional foundation or whatever is going to turn to professionals in the field and again to most of those individuals we're going to look like something that how could they possibly do that you know yeah and because i feel like they also haven't been able to sort of quantify or they haven't been interested in how a lot of like you get history nerds together in a room or on an online forum and they very quickly will sort of say where are your sources how have you come up with this and they're very self-regulating and it's not about you know getting getting out of your chair and leaving the room yeah that's definitely one method of it but you know any any person who has the courage to get up in front of a lot of people and make a claim or you know cite a discovery they are if they've been in the community at all they know that they have to have you know all their ducks in a row sure yeah you know so so i feel like i feel like your process is in her and the society that it's in is sort of like you know it's it's built in a way to ensure that people are creating good documentation and history and um you know like all on their own terms you know tammy i think we're gonna have to have lee back for another conversation i i mean because again it's there's you know i think like a lot of these plannings for these uh chats it's like what are we gonna talk about you know it's like you're thinking about it and it's like it just it just there's so much and it just flows so simply but you know my light just went out so i don't know if that uh tells us anything um but i think that thank you for the opportunity this is yeah it's fun it really is and lee it's great to see you it's uh you know again i think one of the other things i think that helps uh you know history camp anyway are the volunteers so just a little shout out to all the folks who put the time in there um you know getting yourself thank you you're you're so very kind so i'd like to say thank you it's been great to see you again i want i look forward to seeing you in the person you know very soon uh but of course there's other ways to do it so lee it's been a pleasure thanks tammy yes absolutely and i'm very much looking forward to what's happening on may 15th and beyond that's great thank you cool