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we are live hello everyone welcome to another episode of PR explored I'm am so excited delighted all those words we use in the press releases right to welcome my guest Bill burn today yay yay we forgot that this is going to be gamechanging for the industry reshape the dynamic of PR right here right all those words that we're not supposed to use but anyway I am very happy to have you here and I want to say um bill is the co-founder of Remedy PR and we met I don't even know how long we've known each other but I'm sure we probably met I don't know if we met on Twitter or somewhere online I don't know it was most likely Twitter or or LinkedIn and that's it's one of those things where people always ask like do you still use Twitter I'm like all the time Twitter is a great way to communicate with certain subgroups yeah yeah I mean I haven't given up my account I am probably more active on threads than I am on Twitter and more active on LinkedIn than I am uh on probably either one of those but in any way in any case yes I think if you need to use Twitter for something it's okay to use it I just you know that we we talked about social media a couple weeks ago and I just there's so much to say you could talk about it all day every day right so I just saw linkedin's gonna start some kind of Tik Tock type short video Fe teacher or something I'm like oh no I just saw that and and they asked for my feedback and I said this is very Tik Tock and I'm not sure why I'm seeing these videos yeah like it's it seems like they were pulled from Tik Tok but that's a whole other convers yeah yeah yeah that's another topic for another day so today uh we are going to be talking all about um one of my kind of pet topics really is PR scams and how there's a rise of agencies selling PR placements on social media they're just everywhere and I know that bill um is really passionate about it as well and has posted and gotten a lot of um responses on a lot of engagement on LinkedIn and so when you know when I asked him what he wanted to talk about because I always you know want to know what's on people's minds this is um this is what we landed on so we're going to dive in and we want to take your questions to we'll probably um talk for a little bit and um see if um if you do have questions just go ahead and post them I know this is live on LinkedIn Live on YouTube and I'm GNA go ahead and while uh Bill kind of maybe you want to talk a little bit about about your work and what you do a little I'm G post this that we're live so people know um on Twitter and threads great 25 years in PR I came from the big agency World in Manhattan moved to San Diego for a job for what was termed at the time a mobile social network and to put that into more Layman's regular person speak they wanted to be Myspace for mobile phones this is before mobile devices did everything uh the stock options didn't pan out I'll say that nicely and eventually started freelancing and Consulting and then co-founding remedy PR my background going back to New York was Burton Snowboards Intel Sony Guinness a lot of great brands and that's informed a lot of what we do here at remedy brands that we work with you know it's been a who's who of action sports from K2 and Rome Snowboards to Nixon watches but also jayab we've done work with Lexus a lot of great consumer Brands we've done work in Consumer Finance Healthcare and Tech too uh and we really you know our goal now is like we're not a big agency but we we help a lot of Challenger Brands and startups punch punch above their class uh but PR is always it's never a given which is I think why these other entities I don't even want to call them agencies that are selling these PR scams have have kind of risen up in prominence right yeah I who knows but I mean it's something I've been watching for a while and I feel like it's just getting worse and I mean one of the issues and we'll talk about this too is that it really um you know it hurts those of us who are trying to do you know honest work and deliver results for clients and so I think it's good for everybody to be educated about it and one of the things that bothers me most is that people that don't know what these folks are all about can make the mistake of opting in so you know if they if people if companies don't have a PR consultant or agency or internal person that understands then you know you could end up you know just flushing a lot of your budget down the toilet so exactly so like a bigger firm or not a bigger firm a bigger company let's say Intel Intel is not looking at smaller shops like ours and they know what they're doing and they're not falling for these scams but a lot of companies that have a budget of say3 to $20,000 a month which I know is a big range see these and they say oh that seems like a great deal you can get me on to x y and z these guaranteed Publications for what because that other PR firm remedy or Michelle Garrett they said they couldn't guarante me anything so this sounds great and really it's very it's very flattering when you think about what they're doing because you don't see PR firms running around saying like we're as good as advertising like but you see these teams that are basically selling disguised ads saying their PR placements that no one will ever C and everyone says oh wow that's that's amazing because I you know we discussed this before no one brags they bought an ad right no one shows the back of the magazine and said I spent x amount of dollars on it but they will share hey we just got raided this or we were inside the mag top 10 these or they did a feature story on our CEO or some other executive and that's that's the power of PR so it's very flattering that these people are trying to pull this scam right I don't have an issue with people buying ads I love advertising right you can control the message and you can repeat the message because whatever publication you're targeting whether it's a trade mag Business Insider Maxim Men's Journal New York Times they're not going to constantly feature your brand so you g to get a great trade hit somewhere in whatever industry cool you're not going to see another one next week that's just not how it works right and I mean I think you know if somebody's in a hurry I always recommend that they do paid media that they buy an ad or pay for a sponsored piece or whatever it is and also I work a lot with B2B clients of course and so with trade Publications a little bit of paid media can actually help you on the earn media side as well so I have nothing against paid media and I think that clients should factor that in companies should have that as part of their um their budget so it's a cohesive ecosystem right it all it all goes it all goes together like you said with speed like if you need it tomorrow or next week buy the ad like yeah we're on the same page there for sure and I'm gonna say this too um if you want to know we're not going to name names today um but if you want to know always you know you can always DM um bill or I and we can help you out direct you to some of these things if you don't know what we're talking about you do we have maybe we can have it show an example I don't know I didn't really I'd be yeah I would need more to be more techsavvy faster but a lot of the video ads I've seen they're very we've cracked the code on PR is a big one um or they show a lot of brand logos all from the same Publications that should be a flag and we get into more Flags later but like if you keep seeing the same 20 Publications on these Instagram ads telling you that they can guarantee you PR something's up with it and and similarly if that worked if that was if that was going to move the needle as they say if that was going to really secure results you and I would do it for Our Brands I would easily save a lot of money a lot of overhead by just Outsourcing to that but it's not true PR it's and we can get into why about that later but like I think you said you've been seeing it like with these guys poaching trying to poach your clients directly yeah I mean un luckily I mean my clients are are know to run anything by me um first when they get something like this and I mean almost every client I've ever worked with has gotten something and sent it to me and said hey is this legit like what is this because they will like they make them sound like well we have you know we think you'd be a great fit for this publication and then when you look at what it is it's like a publication no one's ever heard of I mean it's like a publication they basically invented um you know I mean you could there's a website but that doesn't mean that anybody's actually looking at that stuff and that's not you know a legitimate media Outlet so yeah and I've got no problem saying with these it's like look up Wall Street weekly or New York weekly and so the legit their websites and the logos they look legiti is right and to someone who's never really kicked the tires oh this looks like a legitimate website Cool you just you're going to get me an interview here on this publication then I would say look at those websites though and see that like there's no advertising there's no Mast head there's no list of journalists that work there the Articles often get transferred from one to the next it's not syndication they just own these properties right and it's they're almost hybrid press releases if you if you were to compare any of those to like what you see in Wall Street weekly to the Wall Street Journal you're going to see a you're going to see a big disconnect in in in and it's no coincidence that they named it w because you know you know like Theos at companies will see Wall Street and they'll be like oh my God it's the wall you know Wall Street Journal it's a Wall Street and they just freak out and they're like you know it's all it's an ego thing and then they the way they word the emails is also appealing to the ego uh you know like we're gonna you're G to be the top story you're going to be you know on the cover you're G to be and I'm like um okay of you know like and the money they want to charge would you be so much better off just paying a consultant or a smaller agency or whatever to do some actual work for you than to dump thousands of dollars into something that potentially um you know no one will see and even if they did like no I mean I think it's very obvious if you do a little bit of homework um you know just click on the sites and look around you can see but again we know not everybody understands and part of this is an education process so yes and the other thing you and I are both seen is twofold two other avenues they certain Publishers are selling advertorial space that's hidden so like let's say it's Bill bur slash then they've got a site that says partner and you can pay to have an article written for you that's hidden on the website under the partner link or there'll be a p there'll be something like that and true then someone wrote an article on you and it's now posted on this website great but no one will ever see it unless you actually send them the link because it's buried it's not with the editorial or similarly newswires which is still a thing and still have value right we're seeing a lot of firms now selling if you use this work with us we'll write the article put it over in newswire and you'll be on these Affiliates you'll be on the ABC affiliate but the reality is too that you're just buried on some back page of market watch that again no one will ever see unless Michelle Garrett takes the link and sends it to you and says look I was in market watch but you weren't yeah you know it's it's it's like buying a classified ad in your local newspaper like cool like that's what you did yeah well we know everybody likes to put us featured in you know blah blah blah blah blah well I mean if you if you paid for it it's yeah it's it's not really you you weren't really featured I mean again it's back to the you know you would never hold it up and say hey we bought an ad in the you know orbs or whatever like no and I'm sorry for this company like I'm not trying to put them on ads work right I'm looking right and it's it's funny how like I I fell for it so I we're Consulting for a personal care brand that doesn't have FDA approval yet so I can't name names although I know she's watching uh and she sends me some links to articles a competitor of hers has and I was like oh well they they're ahead of us but we'll catch up let me look at these and I started kicking the tires because I'm like I just see the link you know so and so weekly this seems legitimate right like because I don't I do a lot of media calls but it's hard on the consumer space to do them all which is why we have a team here and I'm like I've never heard of this Pub but it sounds legit oh the logo looks legit wait why is this article the same on that site and why is it the same on this site and I start looking and then similarly to you I start seeing these Instagram ads I don't know if it's the algorithm targeting me because I work in PR right but they're just and I had some calls and I and I kicked the tires and had some meetings and they're basically just selling us advertorial so Michelle for 750 we'll write an article on you and it's GNA go here and then for 500 more it's G to go here and we we can guarantee that because we have relationships which you know people love to ask about that in PR relationships don't guarantee anything it's maybe we'll get feedback maybe our call right but you know One widget versus another like it's got to be a good story overall and you've got to have a good angle which is why a PR it's not advertising which is why a PR person right PR team is is critical so I was W working with this personal care consultant I'm sorry Personal Care brand and I I went back to her I was like oh this is garbage by the way we can do this if you want but here's what this actually is and she said heck no she actually didn't say heck but and she's like I have integrity and I can't yeah well that's the other thing I don't think people understand if you buy into this stuff that can actually hurt your credibility and that's why I just feel like we need to get the word out that so people understand you might think it's a quick you know way to get you know some coverage or something but I mean it's really not I mean it's really not helping your cause at all because you know again no legitimate reporter is going to Google your company these probably I don't even know if these come up in SE I mean that's another question right I mean are they you need to dive deep you need to so if it was like a personal care brand you're just Googling for like this genre that this brand is in no I would need to Google Michelle Garrett's Personal Care brand da da da da and and find it so they're hidden they don't help you know talk to a good SEO agency a reputable one again not one that's advertising a quick fix on Instagram right they're not gonna at least as of now they're not GNA do anything and and similar you mentioned it earlier like with the savviness there's a it's up to you if you want to name names but Council programs that you can buy into that yeah you know no I talk about Forbes I I I'm pretty there are a lot of Articles out there I mean and I can post one in the chat if people want to see there's a couple that I refer to one is really well done it's a researched you know well researched article by a real reporter about um how they lost their credibility and why people still think they have it I don't know I I guess they have a few actual reporters over there but they really are not minding the store on the the paid side I guess I don't know no and and it's it's you know it's where ad and doesn't speak to editorial and I am sure that if you talk to the longtime editorial team at Forbes they're going to be like f guys what are we doing um and similar there's a yeah there's Rolling Stone I think it's called culture Council um max Maxim has a partner program where I you know we had a a brand call with a with an another agency that was looking to get their name out there more and I explained listen if we're going to do what you want this is what it'll take side note you can just buy this and you go to this like the maxim partner program and it's going to have mortgage brokers it's gonna have dentists you know it's like things that would never be in Maxim and you know and it's part of the reason that I'm loving that we're having this call and or this video and that we can share it later not too long ago I bumped into somebody very successful in his industry that we're chatting and he's like what do you do and I'm like oh I manage a PR firm and he's like oh I love PR which is great because usually what I hear is I have no idea what PR is or or I hired this team and they did nothing and when the team when the team does nothing that's often maybe you didn't have a good story so they should have turned you down right maybe you didn't spend enough or you didn't wait long enough those are usually the three things and he's like you know I I love this woman I hired she was great I'm like awesome cool and he's like look she got me on CEO weekly pulls it out and I I did not have you know I didn't have it in me to burst the bubble that that's not a thing yeah you know it's almost like not a thing it's like putting your kids artwork on the fridge like yeah it's there but there's no barrier to entry like of course you're gonna put your kids artwork on the fridge they're your kids right well and they do this with I mean they do it on purpose the USA Wire magazine the CEO the women's journal the Wall Street week all those things like you know we listed out a few of them but I mean they do that I mean they have a whole like strategy they and they have a s and I mean to the untrained eye it could you know it could fool people and that's unfortunate it is and and so when I made that first LinkedIn post someone did chime in that said I got it wrong and I'm like how so he's like these are just link sharing sites and like correct these are yes that is what they are but you were fooling people into thinking that this is something legitimate and I know when I when we were off this chat if I go get coffee and the Barista is like hey how's your morning going I said I was just interviewed by women's Journal they would say oh that's that's awesome bill right like I would and right they don't know it and it sounds legit right and yeah so no it's really it's really hard to um you know I just think we have to keep at it you know like I think I know that you've been at it a while I've been at it for a while and I I do try to talk about it I don't like to be like a Debbie down or broken record you know but unfortunately I think there's more of this than there's ever been and I mean just in general in in marketing and in in any you know really area that we look in business there are people that are you know scam artists and they're trying to um you know get people's money any way they can and they don't really care um you know I I always wonder what their long game is I'm like wouldn't word get around because I sent you and we were prepare preparing for this you know four or five examples of actual you know firms agencies um and that other people have mentioned to me too and I've got an email directly from them and I'm like don't people get wise to this after I mean like I don't no I not not with the brands they work with I think uh because they it's more like a quick churn right versus like a a monthly retainer which is their selling point you don't need to pay for a monthly retainer that's in their videos forget the cost retainer we can get you this and they've you know I've had meetings with some of these they'll send you an Excel sheet where do you want to be it'll take three weeks to get you into this to slot you in I'm like that's not that's not how it works and one of the things that I do wish you know we talked about this before with earned media there's no guarantees uh there just isn't no you know the biggest firms in the world won't guarantee you X right so what I wish though is that you know the prsa would somehow add into the code of ethics to make it again this the big shops also they don't care it's the smaller from the consultant to the midsize where three grand to 20 grand retainer it's a smaller shops that are getting hurt so if if someone would come out besides you and I right and say hey this is garbage like this is hey there's these are ad buys like you no no reputable PR firm despite relationships can guarantee you an editorial placement full stop game over and that would make my job a lot easier because it's a it's something I deal with every time I get a new business call what can you guarantee for me it's like yeah I can guarantee my team will work hard I have case studies for days but it's like you know reiew mirror stuff like objects in the rearview mirror may be closer than they assume they might be distorted right you know what works for one brand doesn't always work for another um right so are there you know are there flags in your opinion like the untrained eye should look for when kicking the tires on this sort of stuff um I just feel like if they talk a good good game and they seem really lick I'm always I would be immediately you know my my radar would go up and I would be um checking them out I would want to know you know who else they've worked with what kind of results they got um and I wouldn't let them like Smooth talk me into uh you know signing up and spending you know thousands of dollars or I mean I don't even know how much um on something that you know maybe sounds good but like you know again I think PR you have to be in it for the longer haul and that clients don't want to hear that companies sometimes don't want to hear that and so these are the firms that are telling them what they want to hear but there's a price to pay you know literally and figuratively for that kind of um if you're going to engage that kind of a of a company it's you know aesthetically i' I'd liken it to a fitness program versus Plastic Surgery yeah you know like oh you know plastic surgery can take care of your problem areas like that that can transform it can transform your body literally overnight I don't know enough about plastic surgery but you know Fitness depending on your goals and what you need to do can take a while you can see quick results if you have a very sedentary lifestyle and you just start walking two miles every day you will see certain results you're not going to get sixpack abs overnight but you'll see results uh people just they want things quicker than PR can provide but right you know no one no one also no one really brags about plastic surgery right they brag about the time they put in at the gym and that's it's a true it's a true analogy uh there's a woman Lindsay that you know she's a PR consultant like the rest of us and chia same thing she's like that is that is dead on I think if if the video is too slick the ad looks like you're trying to sell me disposable razors like Dollar Shave Club or something like that don't believe it uh checking the URL a lot of people don't you know partner program reading the fine print yeah this is different than um in consumer PR where there's the affiliate networks where like we might get a percentage if you click it cool it's still got to make the cut editorially right you know like with the council posts click on that like to be on Forbes Council true you have to have a agency I don't know how well they kick the tires that makes or brand that makes certain amount for the year that's true right then pay but then you pay to be in it and that's the same thing with the Rolling Stone one and all the others is that there might be some criteria but then I also pay to have this platform versus you know when you might submit like a bylined article for one of your clients to a trade Journal that you earn that hey my client has this stance on this topic right what do you think and they're like oh Michelle that's great we will run this yes that's that's not Michelle you know sliding a little bit of money across the table like right yeah well see I was I mean I was always kind of a purist about the separation between earned and paid for a long time I'm not necessarily quite on that you know I I i' I've changed a little bit on that because I think again I really do try to encourage clients to spend some money with Publications that they really want to be in but there's a right way and a wrong way to go about doing that now and if somebody comes to me and say we want be in fors and I do just say well you probably don't need me just go buy your way in there I mean if that's what you want to do right I mean if you want to claim that that's you know earn media then I you know I can't stop you from doing that I I wouldn't do it but like you know because again it doesn't come up in the search but also as you and I know and same thing with advertising I have a friend who's a very successful entrepreneur who loves PR and has not been taken by anybody right but he has said to me in the past I've bought ads and they did nothing you know my team is great and I'm like your team is great I know them they're very good at what they do in the hospitality industry but maybe your ads weren't good maybe you didn't run them enough right I'm not an advertising Basher advertising has incredible power but if you want that quick hit you know sure buy I I wouldn't do it and people don't search it and it doesn't pop up and with a good PR strategy too it's it's a longevity play right because I similar to advertising I see a lot of car ads I don't buy a car ad every week but I need to remember things and then need to go look for them later like PR all marketing should be looked at as a Long play it's not always a click to buy you know $10 sunglasses on Tik Tok or whatever people are selling now why do we think there's more of this now why do what do we think about that it it's it's working um because they can literally sell you a product that you don't know what you're getting right it's like a similar to like shien or timu where you get the this isn't a Stanley mug but you can get the Stanley for $3 right so you get that Prestige of walking around with it you're getting PR placements and people like to brag about that there is such such a there is such a Prestige that comes with what we do and I'm not I'm not bragging about our industry but it it's it's true right people say oh my gosh I was featured here I saw you here right you got a call be you might get a call because of an ad but you know you land an article on somebody or a brand yeah you know you you you hear about it and we do have that that shine which also is why it it's a it's such a difficult job because you know this person competes against this person for the same for the same with trade journals you compete against everyone that wants to be in that trade journal with consumer media you compete against everybody that wants to be in front of that demographic I I I always joke it's it's like advertising on Instagram right like paid ads or program adats that's such a race to the bottom because people are now just throwing money at it right there's only so much room on Instagram in my feed to be scrolling and everyone wants to be in front of the 22y old to 50y old white guy like that's just good job like Macy's to the sunglass company to you know the supplement company to the clothing company so it's it's a tough job it's hard to do what we do yeah it is and I again I think the clients that are willing to kind of work with you over the longer haul are probably going to see better results because it just takes some time to really get get you know momentum going and once you get momentum going I think it can be a little bit easier but um I think people are just looking for this you know it's this this solution this magic you know solution that isn't out there I mean it doesn't exist and if you think about you know like you were talking about you know Fitness or like get rich quick or like you know there's just so many scam artists because you know of course I um I work for myself and I know a lot of other people who do too and there's people targeting those folks too with these schemes uh you know make a million dollars you know freelancing or what I'm like you know you it just doesn't work that way so you just if it sounds too good to be true it probably is that's the phrase that always goes through my head it really is and I I tell a lot of you know you probably have a lot of friends and Brands ask for your advice or you know want to pick your brain I will tell any brand even if we're not right for them right like we don't do Hospitality here uh but I have friends that work with these companies they're like like Hey listen show me show me the proposal like if if anyone on this chat or anyone that sees this video later has a question about this like am I being taken slide into our DMS I've had brand managers that are unfriendly with send me a proposal be like this is spoton this is exactly what they should do and similarly I know you're going to talk about this on your on a future one with somebody else but sometimes like the the budget's too low like hey maybe you shouldn't do PR because you don't have either a great story or the budget to keep this going because you and I have both had it happen where we'll land that story within days or a week and it's amazing right it's like oh my gosh we just got them here like tier a like we just blew Minds with this but usually it's not how it works usually PR is a long game yeah and and if these Services worked I'd use him so would you like I can't you know it's it's just not it's they they they're not what people they're not what they're telling people they are like it's it's it's deceptive and it makes the job harder for the small consultant up to the midsize team and they appeal again to the ego so I think that's you know to me that's another warning sign it's like you know they're very I the one that I got or the one that the client forwarded to me was just really subtle but you know they were they were definitely like kind of sweet talking them and trying to be like you know we think you know you'd be a great fit for this and you know they were they were using language that you know would appeal but then again you have to think well now you have to just look closer look deeper it's like you can't just take them at face value and it's unfortunate but we know that this is kind of the way things are going and um it is it is harder to do legitimate you know earn media uh media relations media outreach whatever you want to call it now than it's ever been of course there are a lot of reasons for that too but I think to your point um some companies I and I'm honest sometimes with people and say I don't think you I don't know if you're ready for PR or maybe you don't really you know maybe you don't need you know to spend thousands of dollars on this right now like maybe you need like for a startup without customers or you know without a lot of news um you know it's going to be kind of hard to get much going if you don't have an announcement then another announcement then you know like you've got to have some things you know to talk about at least that are newsworthy um or I don't know if it's necessarily going to be all you know very easy to get out there so you nailed it because PR can be it can be costeffective versus like I don't want to know what you know a back page of a thick glossy magazine right probably more than our monthly retainer right but it's it's refreshing to hear you say that and more I wish more people would that sometimes it's you're not ready or right for PR sometimes you don't have that story and I would encourage again anybody yeah to to ask you know no no reputable firm is gonna guarantee you results but I will you know I I told you we we told a brand right before the Consumer Electronics Show no let's table this for later and we have a lot of great work in the c space we've got case studies for days like look what we did we're amazing but for this brand I told them you could it's not your budget it's that you don't have a good story for CES where people are you know metaverse contact lenses and you know drones that are you know you know picking up my dog poop for me as I'm walking around the block so right wait till later and do it and like you said make sure you've got these stories that are going um not not everyone realizes that so it's really important to just just ask I do spend a lot of time I had one call earlier this week with someone who I'm like yeah you shouldn't do it and it's not you know and it's not it wasn't budget I'm like right now you don't have it you know like we can work with you on that but yeah you can triple what you think you're going to spend with us and still not going to deliver now hopefully he'll call later and not be swayed by one of these ads where someone jumps out and tries to sell me on cracking the code to be Forbes and to being CEO weekly and these other places because it's not real editorial but the value editorial provides I think you mentioned that with Frank on one of your previous video chats uh the consolidation on the industry makes this job harder right I I guarantee you a client we had Now versus a client we had last year if one of our kpis is growing Impressions right it's not going to happen there's fewer stories there's fewer journalists yeah and something like maybe it'll be syndicated but for the most part it often takes more now to do this job than it did a couple years ago or 10 years ago yeah oh yeah no it's definitely changed and um I don't imagine that that change is going away either I mean it's going to keep evolving and um I think you know it's just going to mean that you have to understand first of all you like where your audience is spending time right and maybe it's a lot of smaller Niche you know newsletters or Publications or you know there are ways to um still achieve results but I think you know the days where we're just going to start you know we're just going to be able to land you in any publication that you want if those days are being are over so I think you have to be realistic yeah well it's also like technology has to an extent in a good way democratized PR right because a consultant can now do the job that you sometimes that you needed a big New York City firm for right like my career was in Manhattan where I started 200 person agency in that office alone and then before I started remedy I was a consultant working from my house to bedroom apartment and you know I I would joke but like New York Times didn't care right like they you know they're not doing a story on me they're doing a story on the Brands we work with and it's a good PR person is great at telling that story but the job has gotten harder but also though everything's gotten harder if you want to be Instagram famous you should have started 15 years ago right like to to level up your profile now is going to take a lot more work which right you hit on threads uh this is a side note but yeah everyone listening it's the wild west now if you want to be want to try to exert some influence jump jump on it I went all in on Google+ years ago which helped great with SEO but now it's gone yeah threads right like it's it's a it's a contender but it's gonna take effort oh yeah yeah I I mean I don't know what's going to happen with any of this stuff and I mean that the thing that I just that I was come back to this is not a new thing but like you know where is your audience spending time and that's the problem I have when I talk to a client they saywell we want to be in the Wall Street Journal or Tech crunch or whatever it is it's like okay well we can put them on the media list and we can pitch them stories but really have you done the research or do you know like where your prospects your audience whoever you're trying to reach is spending time where are they spending time so that's what we have to find out first and then and most likely it it might be a trade publication so this is why I've been trying to like reason through this a little bit with with people I talk to because I you know the day when I talk to somebody and they just start spewing out names like that like Publications that are top tier Publications I'm always like well okay let's okay let's let's kind of dig a Little Deeper here why do you think that is where you need to be and of course it is a vanity you know thing everybody would love to have a story um there however you know it might take a little bit of time or lading up or maybe you don't have that that story that's the right fit right now and it doesn't necessarily matter if the pr provider knows somebody at the Wall Street Journal that's not going to be it's not like we're just gonna call them up and they're just gonna run the so we talk about these things all the time but no you you you you beat me to it with the vanity part so I've got a funny story 20 years ago one of the snowboard Brands we worked with we got him in the Wall Street Journal great right it was a Roundup uh but I I talked to people I laugh now snowboarding's matured a lot since then but I would laugh I'm like well my dad reads the Wall Street Journal and he's 60 buying a new snowboard right so like there's other avenues to go and and similar like trade pubs like logs um I don't like the word influencers but to an extent these people have influence right does someone only has is a a local in my neck of the woods like a store on the beach and Bay Press which is like 20,000 copies it's thrown on my driveway like in San Diego only 20,000 copies but is that going to have more influence for a certain brand than the Wall Street Journal well is that brand like you know a local event or a local startup you know and how much how much does it take like the Wall Street Journal looks great believe me if I was featured in The Wall Street Journal boom I I was once interviewed in the New York Times and I talk about that all the time yeah but what works better for me what I actually get more traction with right I'm like hey I was featured in this marketing publication right yeah yeah most of the people that I pursue as clients like they don't read that New York Times article yeah it's it's where where is your customer which is a battle to fight right they're like why am I in this trade PB like because that's who buys your product yeah that's yeah so hard and you'll notice those those these don't Target these these PR scammers if you will they don't have those sites listed even though like even buying an ad in a trade Pub would be probably relatively affordable um again it's always they always advertise that they'll put you on the same sites anyone that gives you this is another flag that we missed anyone that gives you a price list they're not they're not earning you media well you we had talked a little bit about wire services too I mean obviously there is a time and a place to use um a wire service you know like a PR news wire or PR web or whatever it might be but then there are these other services that will claim that they're you know legitimate wire services and it's really not the same thing no it it's not and people need to be very there's there's more that it can pontificate on this besides me and you but very clear on what they will and won't get wires service and depending on the brand we we recommend it and sometimes we don't and they have changed when you and I started our career putting it over a newswire actually made the phone ring a lot more and that really doesn't happen as much now it helps with other things that I'm not gonna want to get into because I'm not the I've been told it helps with other things and sometimes you do have to do it if you're like for example you're a publicly traded company right exactly got to do it but you know the wire service is going to tell you it's getting 50 billion estimated Impressions yeah well and then there are PR firms who will sell tell their clients that you know the wire hits are earned media coverage and again that's not the same thing and I've had just round and around conversations trying to explain to people that this is not Med Now if they got the press release off the wire and wrote a story then of course that's our media coverage but if it's exactly verbatim your headline and then dat line press it's that's not an earned media hit it's not a it's not it's it's a nothing Burger you know you can show the impression report to the C Suite which right is part of the reason I think brands are using them still uh in my New York days we definitely had certain household names you buy them at your grocery store that oh we're low on impressions for this quarter we need to bump it up yeah and okay cool three grand put it over the wire good to go like we're we're we're counting it like there's no Impressions were a part of the kpi and that is a huge huge mistake any this another another video chat that you'll do with somebody else but huge mistake PR Flags this one yeah now I'm I should ask coverage book to come on and talk about because they have a new measurement tool that's free so danber thank you for chiming in with nothing Burger I appreciate you on the chat no and you know and that's oh God measurement is such a dicey thing right because often Brands don't want to put the effort in yeah to really measureing be tone like I will tell clients hey look at this great placement like it's a consumer product right so five things to give your son for back to school cool are we the only cell phone in there or what brands weren't included or or what brands are we next to that add shine to our brand now measurement takes effort right right it's like do you want to put X dollars into it well and PR is one piece I mean if you follow ran fishkin he talks all about how many different places people see things and then the attribution um for the sale is all it's it's not really again it's and I've talked to Jonna Burke uh from the um AMC I'm going to mess up what you know the what it stands for but everybody it's a measurement uh body um and they would say that PR ladders up right so it's a piece of the marketing it's a piece of the promotion the sales and all of that but it's not to just put everything and that was another big light bulb moment in my career when I was like oh my gosh I should not be taking on the weight of the world here as far as like you know PR is just one piece yes it's an important piece but it is one piece and if you don't have you know a a strategy an integrated program um with funding and budget and bodies behind it I don't know like we of the world you you nailed it uh first there's that Bill Gates quote which I hate uh the if I had $1 left had spend it on PR yeah I want I want to throw my Apple Mouse through the window because no um if I if I had only one doll I'd try to do some sort of Instagram ad right right do it with can but like no don't spend it on PR uh but be beyond that it's we have heard the stories of you know and it happens with Super Bowl ads too they talk about it but a great article comes out or that Super Bowl ad comes out and it crashes the server sales go through the roof had it happen for one brand once in my career um the you know PR is an integrated part of it it's you look at how things have shifted with retail and there's the digital Halo right but like a lot of Brands um are doing their own retail they're going back now they're starting their own stores because it it gets the consumer they check it out there and they might buy elsewhere and it's you know retail H works when you create when you do it the right way uh so it's you never know what that attribution is right like I might you know we used to talk to breweries all the time we did a lot of work in that space it goes beyond just good beer it's marketing it's hey do you make good apparel because I I only drink beer on the weekends but I wear clothes every day right so I go to the gym right I'm not walking around naked so it's like hey I go to the gym give me a good shirt do you have this do you have that do you have a good social media presence do you have all of this ties together PR is what you brag about but we're you know we're we're a part of it I won't make a football analogy but we're up there with the quarterback like we're pretty we're a pretty big deal right but you still need linebackers you still need that guy that kicks the ball yeah I think our role now more than ever is just trying to keep uh you know the sea sweep from saying something out loud to in front of an audience or in front of a reporter that they shouldn't say so that's as important as uh anything else we do but you know there there was a post I saw that I'll send to you later and if anyone wants to see it they can send it to me it was in one of the for PR Forums on someone said we're changing the game and it moress said SE Su should just go direct do your own PR and I'm like okay cool if you want if you think you'll understand what this journalist wants to talk about awesome no you want to talk about what you want to talk about now our goal of or not our goal our role to help Brands refine their message for journalists your message for in PR to talk to a trade Pub or whatever consumer Outlet is maybe not always the same as what your ad is and that's that's that's the disconnect is like that journalists again because we've got great relationships we'll just write about whatever we tell them to and that's not how it works journalist not parrots sitting there to repeat what we say right you know there's a great Dilbert it's on our Instagram at remedy PR's Instagram about you know Dilbert's taking a reporter Out And the reporter says you expect me to write this word for word and Dilbert says I'm buying you drinks you can you can get drunk or not I expect you to write it something along those lines but it's like no it doesn't work that way regardless of relationships regardless of if you had a reporter at your wedding or took them to dinner or went snowboarding with them yeah you know we you know we've done a lot of work in snowboarding and ski goggles and pl things like that there's times certain journalists do not write about Our Brands um because someone else has a better one at that time yeah yeah sorry and we find angles we're like hey maybe our tier a product top tip of the spear isn't as good as theirs but maybe we've got this other great story that we can tell to fit in yeah yeah it's always about the story I mean that's what I really tell um prospective clients is that you know we can talk all day about media outlets and Etc and relationships and all of that but I mean at the end of the day what's the story and then you know what are your different stories and what story fits here what story might fit there and how can we take your content and repurpose it as our media and what can we do to get more from each and everything that you're already doing um you know to to Really maximize um that so you just unpacked so much there with like well so what's your story um it's got to be exciting right and not just for your brand right or every other you know hey it we've got this like is your story more exciting than this Brand's story or this person's and if not yeah all right what other what's your secondary story what do you talk about and then you said repurposing right brag about it later like so that's what these you know link sharing whatever PR scam sites are great at because I as seen on whatever cool I'm going to now reshare that and put it on my website which you should do the amount of brands that don't share their PR placements for reasons I'm not sure about right like we we had one brand they were a uh the brand is called snowboards they were former Burton guys and I love them for this they would put together a newsletter that included their PR hits the mainstream PR hits and send it out to the sales reps so that they knew what was going on so it was a talking point because not every person reads everything every day even every magazine or you miss it so yeah people should repurpose their PR blast we got a a card game company on The Today Show not too long long ago that's not a humble brag but what happened was after a lot of people from that company started sharing it on LinkedIn because I don't get to watch the Today's Show neither does their head of sales neither does their head of marketing right I'm at I'm chomping on my keyboard but this Today's show has power so as soon as that came people know they're like boom we're sharing this with people to us know that like we're it's important and it's legitimate it's not the good morning show or the and in case anyone ask or what I I did I did I did not venmo you anything for PR Explorer there was no like hey Michelle how about we do one of these uh 200 bucks yeah look out for that so as we kind of as we wrap up here let's talk about let's just recap like look out for the name that are just like invented but play off names that are well known like legitimate names that's you never heard of them FL flag look and see you know what are they guaranteeing if anything like that's another thing um are that you said a price list right that was another they give you a price list um big big flag and click on their links and see you know sometimes they don't have a link but you go out Google you know wake up today or whatever it's yeah exact it's not it's not a thing compare it to whatever like be like hey is anyone else writing about this at a legitimate publication what you would consider use legitimate Loosely but whatever is legitimate for your industry like check it out um the URL I'm looking at my browser double check that sometimes they do have it sometimes they don't but if it says like whatever whatever whatever slash partner program or even sometimes seen it with a very prominent um taste maker streetwear website well they'll just have a pee to the UN now that's very good on them that's hidden but it's like that that's how they do it so so check but really it's if it's too good to be true like I'll I'll I'll shut up after this the biggest brands in the world still believe in PR the most successful Brands still hire agencies and spend a lot of money on them or they have in-house teams that do this and they're not they're not leveraging these like scam link sharing sites so yeah know you you use that as your guidelines I'm not saying you need to spend 20 grand a month on a PR team or that you need a PR team in general right but like PR has value and these ads that say that we've cracked the code and no PR team can promise you anything there's a reason right oh yeah that's a bold claim right and I was going to say sometimes they really are expensive I remember the days in the like the Terry Bradshaw which I think now is Dennis Quaid is like $30,000 and this was years ago for one you know for for him to put your company on their program and that's just a a terribly you know large amount of money so I mean I can't even tell you what you could get for that you know if should we hit that we and I don't think we said that if someone's asking you for money for a fee yeah no no go and we we've seen we've seen those too like hey will you do this interview with soand so like but we need $20,000 to cover the satellite costs and Y and it's you've been hit by them I I I was I was hit once I had one phone call and then they kept coming back to Future clients I would just send them the notes I'm like hey this is what it is it's $25,000 this is what we get for it by by the way it's an ad bu but yes you will be interviewed by soand so do you want to spend $25,000 like it's not editorial it's not the Nightly News it's you know it's it's buying some commercial that people probably won't see yeah they and they they try to sell you on that too be the top one of the top 10 companies in that you know that's that's and then yeah they want they want a lot of money for that and we have limited space though so you need to jump on anyone that rushes you also anyone that keeps on following up some weird CRM program yeah also yeah also a flag but listen anyone that's not a PR Pro that needs to discuss this I think slide into Michelle's DM or my DM we have no problem just talking to you quickly and being like yeah that's legit yeah or or it's not you know and I also I I tell friends that are PR Consultants all the time if you're client is really falling for whatever or like they second guessing you right like come to me like I will sign whatever document you need to sign saying we won't poach your client and they can talk to me as a third party yeah and hey I I'll tell you it's nothing Burger I'll tell you this is a bad idea right because it makes at the end like the more people that know about what we do and how to do it the right way makes the job easier versus you know when you talk to somebody and they're like I've been burned by are before you're like yeah no it's hard to get people to give you a chance when they've had bad experiences and that's this that's why this makes me so you know upset sometimes because I'm just like you know please don't do this this is you know you're just it's lying it's it's just not being honest and so um it there's a big difference between you know guaranteeing promising and you know like I I don't know um and if you want to pay for ads just be upfront about it just say you know I paid for this I I'm on this Council and I paid for this you know opportunity or what and that's fine I mean there's nothing wrong with it but anytime they're trying to like pass it over as um earned and it's paid that's when the The credibility issue comes into play we we're not ad Bashers right like ads have value I fully believe in advertising uh little known fact I wanted to be a copywriter out of college and that did not work out and I into PR like I I advertising is amazing right a good creative ad it works oh yeah I am not I am not knocking it but that's what these people are selling you these people are selling you long form advertorial often on places that won't do what you think they're doing or aren't what you think they are because you know so and so women's Journal sounds legit right that's the URL it's I I think it is women's Journal but like CEO Weekly right yeah no I just got one the other day women's something or and I'm like okay you know God so yes oh gosh we could go back and forth over on this one so much but just be careful just be careful look closely think it through ask somebody who knows the difference I mean there are different ways you can make sure that you're not getting taken for a ride a reputable a reputable PR person will give you 15 minutes and tell you and similarly you know I've had calls from friends at brands that have told me they're unhappy with their team and I look and I'm like well you're paying them too little like or when things like this come up I'm like I wish I told the guy that like man you not that he got taken well yeah he like he bought into something he thought he got and it's like oh you just you know it could be Michelle Garrett's blog for all that is right it's like hey I just paid 750 and Michelle wrote a blog post on me cool like you know it's no one no one sees it yes so uh I think we should probably wrap it up it's we're right on the hour here and I want to thank everybody for joining us I want to thank Bill very much and we'll be back I'll be back on PR explor and looking at my calendar on April 10th um with John forberger who we're going to talk about yeah how clients what clients need to you know have ready or what they should bring to the table and maybe talk a little bit about how they can be ready um to engage with a PR consultant or a PR provider agency so I I I can't wait because I'm going to share the heck out of that because that is a challenge we Face where Brands come to us and then they're not ready to do it and the worst thing is that we allocate time there's only so much time in the day right you're not ready now we hit pause now it's like oh well yeah yeah I can't wait John is super smart everyone that is not familiar with him so that's going to be a great one yes I can't wait thank you so much Bill and thanks everybody for being here thank you Michelle chat soon bye