How To Integrate Electronic signature in Government

How to industry electronic signature government integrate

without further ado one thing i want to make everyone aware of we have the chat room and ammar thanks to you for using it you're the first one uh but what we want to do is use the chat room to how can i say more tightly focus on your concerns your needs your specific expectations hoping to come out of this meeting so i'd like each of you to consider putting in the chat uh box what do you hope to get out of this meeting so uh in a broad stroke what we're going to do is we're going to talk about electronic signatures in general and then we're going to go into a specific case study presented by radian and then we're going to open it up for questions to everyone so with that please use the chat tell us your speakers um what you're interested in learning about uh you know you can give us some specific context of what you're doing and what you're trying to achieve what some of your problems are your needs that sort of thing so in general i think we're pretty much all in the state of california there may be some exceptions like amar but a focus here at the sacramento arma chapter is what do we do in california and most of that will apply pretty much around the world but we have some specific issues and a lot of our members are um they work for government particularly the state of california government because it's entered here um that said pretty much everything that we're talking about is broadly applicable so we can you know we're focused a little bit on government needs and solutions and how in that arena people have to try to reach their customers and respond to their customers needs which is primarily the public is still we can discuss things as they might apply to the private sector so i don't see any chat questions so you guys think about what you want to come away with or if you have some special needs you will help us make this a richer session if you do i have one here that came through records that end up residing in docusign when docusign isn't designed to be a records repository okay we can address that a little bit later thank you for that and um well the good news here is that all of your chats can be seen i believe by everyone in the session so we'll mix and match and uh see if we can't answer all of them with that the general question about electronic signatures is how secure do they need to be because what is a signature signature is an electronic or an acknowledgement generally of your consent or your authorization so e-signatures broadly is the ability to electronically achieve that now there are many different ways to do it the state of california secretary of state allows for two specific methodologies when the state government is transacting with the public so if state government is not transacting with the public then many more options are available to them to acknowledge permission authority that sort of thing an example would be requesting a vacation and launching it through an application that routes around to the various approval levels that doesn't require the secretary of state regulations to be followed you can do that a number of different ways with existing technology or new applications that sort of thing now docusign is being used as a just as an example by the mortgage industry the loan industry in general by insurance companies by oh just a whole wide range of business processes today we're going to go into one specific process in the federal government using a particular software called docusign but there are many ways to skin the cat many ways to solve the problem docusign is not the only one but i'd have to say it's sort of like the kleenex or the zoom um that we now see uh zoom has has become the flavor that everybody not everybody but a lot of people like and we're using that today uh docusign is is an application that has been around for some time and is very popular i see it a lot but there are other things and we can discuss that so i think without a further ado i'm going to turn the meeting over to naranjan uh who is the um i guess ceo of radian uh correct me if i'm mistaken there uh and then he'll take over the meeting and they're going to present uh their application uh to the federal government but again we can discuss this more broadly the other thing is that ranjan may be addressing some of the more general issues as they apply to specific installations that he's been involved in in the state of california so naranjan please take over yeah uh thanks chuck i appreciate it thanks for the opportunity for us to uh present this and participate in our chapter so my name is nirajan i'm with radiant solutions we are a local company in sacramento we do uh work with the state of california it's a few projects so uh what i'm gonna do is uh go ahead and start the let me go ahead and start with sharing my screen and see if i can so hope you can see it yes okay perfect so um so let me uh welcome everyone um excited to be here so what i'm gonna do is uh go ahead and cover a few items about digital signatures in general i'm going to also cover the state of california what the requirements are what the regulations are and what's accepted what's not accepted and in general what what kind of technologies that they are focused on and then i'll talk about the digital signatures what our options are and what the use cases could be and then sudhangi will take it from from there she will talk about the gsa's which is the federal government's general general services administration's digital signature solution so she she's been working as an architect uh at that on that project where she has implemented a docusign solution which is uh embedded in their business processes and rolled it out to multiple applications so she'll be able to uh share some of her experience and knowledge uh from that perspective so um here we have uh introductions so i think you have uh myself uh narendra modi if you want to say hello to to the attendees good afternoon everybody this is sudhani okay so um let's just dive into uh some of the topics that we're going to cover so just like everybody state of california has been with the pandemic everybody's working from home and all of a sudden uh digital signatures have become a necessity instead of good to have so um with that uh they are the march of april time frame they basically went from everybody being in the office uh everybody having access to all the resources at the office such as computers printers and you know scanners and everything else and they had to ask all the employees to start working from home and all of a sudden they realized that all the approval processes that they had in place they had to be rethought about so digital signatures uh was part of that uh i guess reinventing of how they'll complete their business uh on their work so um let me just get into what is a digital signature the way state of california um secretary of state is the one who manages or who comes up with the standards as to what is accepted what is not accepted so this department secretary of state they came up with the definition saying a digital signature is defined as an electronic identifier created by computer uh intended by parties using it to have uh same force at effect as the use of a manual signature so uh so that's basically what how they define it but the conditions that they have listed below i think those are the ones that really define exactly uh what they're looking for so just like a handwritten signature where it is it has to be unique to that person so in other words nobody else should be able to create it or copy it those kind of things so basically anything that they create on a computer or an electronic device it has to be unique to that person so that's one of the conditions that has to be met before any digital signature is uh is approved or a state of california agency may be able to use that so that that was number one the second is uh it has to be capable of verification in other words once somebody signs a document a third party should be able to verify if it is fraudulent if it is signed by the same person whether it is authentic whether it has been tampered with uh so the verification yeah sorry to interrupt you uh your slideshow is not flipping oh sorry about that okay oh thanks um for some reason okay all right we basically sorry about that so here it is the um let me just make sure okay and one more thing um the question came in if if we could get a link um the secretary of state's definition or the link so i don't know if that's that link that's there so it is the link is right here okay um so you can click on that and you should be able to um yeah so that's that's a link that you can actually and everyone we will provide a copy of the slides in our presentation archive so you'll get a copy of all all the slides okay thanks today thanks for pointing it out because i i did not realize that okay so uh now coming to uh the second point uh where it is it has to be capable of uh verification and so the the third point is that uh it it should be in sole control of the person using it so in other words uh they will not be able to share their account uh how they cited what they what they are supposed to i mean nobody else should have access to to this particular uh signature um so it has to be under sole control of this person because it is identifying that one person who is agreeing to whatever is written on the document and the number four is it is so once it is linked to data in such a manner that the data if the data was changed the digital signature is invalidated so once somebody signs a document basically the document should be locked or the content of the document should not be modified and basically what that means is there has to be controls uh once the signature is complete that is uh the document cannot be tampered with so so these are the four more important uh conditions that the state of california the secretary of state has has stated in what will be recognized as a as a digital signature now the next slide here so what kind of technologies are acceptable so which technologies will meet all the four conditions uh so the first is uh public key cryptography so this is in other words pretty much every single user uh sorry every single digital signature vendor could be dark design could be adobe or there are multiple other ones so they they create something called a digital certificate and the certificate itself has unique codes for each signature and there is a high degree of verifiability so they can tie it back to the user and it is there is easy way for them to verify that this is a particular user who has uh who has signed this document so that is uh regarding the the digital signatures and then um if you were to look at the second option which is the second technology that the secretary of state has accepted this is the signature dynamics they call it the way it is defined is it measures the way a person writes his or her signature by hand on a flat surface and binding the measurements to the message through use of cryptographic techniques so this is a mouthful but in simple words uh let me give you an example the way i see it so if you want to go into a grocery store and when you're checking checking out your groceries you are able to sign on a on a signature pad now that itself it is using signature dynamics uh feature so that is where you are signing it on a pad and it is able to uh capture the signature it's able to uh to basically keep track of how you have uh the speed and uh the pressure or whatever i mean uh i'm pretty sure there will be some measurements that it will take um so it's it's uh capturing everything the the user is uh uh the way he or she is signing the challenges with this particular option are it requires additional hardware so for example it requires a signature pad on the side to create the signatures uh it also requires additional steps including handwriting analysis if somebody has to verify that signature so uh and this usually occurs uh after the fact it may not occur instantaneously of course that person in this scenario that person is uh in front of you you can check their driving license and those kind of things but if you if you just were to consider looking at a signature and verifying if that is his or her signature uh that may take a little more analysis than than let's say a pkc public key cryptography uh the third item is uh it's easier for average user to understand because the it is the signature that they are and it's a simple way for them to look at okay uh maybe they're they're citing their name or something to that effect so they may be able to identify that this is the same person now it is also designed to allow future verification as as we talked about the verification is not instantaneous it is uh it has to be done after the fact so um so those are some of the things that are now if you uh the secretary of state also says that if you need absolute verification uh if that's a that's a requirement in that case this may not be the best option so signature dynamics is probably not the best option if you need a absolute verification in that case you're better off going back to the public key cryptography i just wanted to make a comment so our time uh is going pretty fast right and uh i uh i think that this uh information can be uh looked at by our attendees uh maybe on their own time uh you're uh going to be doing a presentation of a case study and so i just think you're running out of time right yeah okay so uh i'll just uh run this real quick uh so the section uh 16.5 it basically who cover whose what organizations are can use this it is a state it is the university of california the county city and all that and then let me skip this one particular slide here and let me go back to what are the options signature options so we are used to the signature uh print sign scan and upload uh that signing process so that we are used to so the second option that we have is individual digital signatures and the third option which we are going to cover in fact this is what surag is going to cover is basically integrated digital signatures with your business processes so that is what she will get into so let me go ahead and introduce sudangi um so um you can you can take over um you can get started with the presentation yes sure thank you niranjan and uh good afternoon everyone again as mentioned i'll cover the gsa implementation of css i work there as a solutions architect and i have been involved with the project for almost five years and we have implemented digital signing for them using one span which is uh a combinator of docusign and also docusign so we have tried implementing with two different solutions and we have successfully implemented both the approaches and i will go much deeper into it in my next slide so the agenda for my slides is we'll start off with advantages of digital signature solutions while customization is the key uh who is using dss uh how long do transactions take in generally and what are some of the ds achievements in gsa so as you guys are already aware uh digital signing solution entirely eliminates the lengthy processes of print science scan and upload uh it also includes better traceability the solution uses a federal friend pedram stat solution at its core which is docusign in this case uh it was one span uh back in the day fedramp is a federal risk and authorization management program certification which is mandatory for many public sector departments this is highly reliable secure digital footprint which is also device independent uh where you could use a document you could basically sign a document on your ipad or your phone or your laptop totally device independent it has strong and flexible capabilities to integrate with other existing applications or business processes and of course save the time of time effort and ultimately cost that it has some very very creative features um it has the ability to change the sign or mistake say for example there are five signers in a process and all the fine designers have to sign or approve this particular document and sign in number three is on vacation which you realize only after assigner one and two have completed signing this solution gives you the advantage to hange the third sign in midway and continue with the process uh as if you know it was totally uninterrupted it also has the ability to send documents to group of people uh say there are approvals that have to be done by anyone from a specific group of people so signing groups is a feature that can be used to sign documents using specific group individuals it also has the ability to assign some other person temporarily or permanent as a replacement ever so often we are in a situation that a document for science is sent out and the person who sends it out is not aware of a certain executive vacation plans and this person is out on vacation so custody transfer is a feature which allows the signer to assign someone else as his or her replacement during his or her time away the digital signature makes it clear in the document and in the evidence summary that a certain person a signed on behalf of another person b and this is the most important feature that is used by most of the executives in any organization it also has business workflow capabilities uh if your organization has complex process workflows uh then this is a solution that you will greatly benefit from uh you may have failure approval process or a sequential approval process or a combination of both and this is a solution that you would definitely benefit from it has amazing capabilities of reporting an analytics data and that could be used for budgeting or chargeback model capabilities and the most important part is customized api integration uh this most of the organizations in public and private sector prefer a very seamless experience and they do not like to leave the comfort of their existing application to computer process and this is where customized api integration is very very beneficial for them because it seamlessly integrates and also saves cost and time for the application user uh one of the question that i've been seeing the chat window right here is a lot of people are asking about uh content management or document storage custom apis are pretty good with that in the sense that you could integrate uh with docusign or with any signing solution for that matter in a fashion that every time a transaction is completed and everybody has finite signing you can save all the documents related to that transaction in a content repository like the alfresco or you could save it in documentum or you could even send it save it in google drive and you could actually set permission profiles and add metadata to those these documents the way you want or your organization likes so yes integration with a content management system is one of the hot topics that a lot of public sector entities have asked us about and that is something that customized api we should definitely provide so from the years of experience that we have had in the past with digital signatures the one thing that stands out is the fact that customization is the key to success here uh while vendors do provide basic apis to make the most of the solutions customization to customers need is what helps them see the true benefit it has wide range of capabilities uh integration with content management as i said custom templates with predefined fields metadata associated with their documents and so on so forth and the full potential is achieved by making sure that it is molded in a fashion that best suits the organization and of course we would also recommend using training on a periodic basis because as and how the organization starts using it uh users continuously need this constant training sessions here is some information about who all are using digital signature solutions currently we have ad hoc users who directly access it using the web portal or basically to self-sign something sign and send it to another user irrespective of designers being internal or external to the organization so those we all know that's pretty common we have over 10 integrated applications involving contract approvals vehicle rentals corporate awards new hire onboarding legal office systems and so on so forth one of the most sought after feature that's being used these days is importantization with remote online organization as we all can imagine this again has evolved because of covert 19 limitations and the need to do everything remote if possible and this is one other area where we are seeing a big upper turn that comes to notarizations the next couple of slides is just a couple of metrics uh it indicates let's look at the first slide it indicates how many transactions have been completed in the last nine months we just gave you a subset of data for those presentation purposes we have been providing the services for almost five years but this is just a small subset of data it is specific data related to gsa as i said and you can see that the amount of transactions have been increasing with each passing month simply because of the comfort level that our end users have reached there is word of mouth people have been talking great things about it and the fact that it is easy at the speed is really fast and so everybody wants to come on board with digital signing this next slide shows the increase in the number of users at gsa and it's a very interesting graph and i thought it would be really helpful for you guys to see here uh how it all progressed so it started at a very modest number of around 520 users in 2016. and you notice that there has been a steady increase every year after that you know expected it's steady 2017 2018 you see it's gradually increasing but what's impressive is that in the year 2020 the number of users exponentially took off and it reached almost 17 000 users for obvious reasons that covet 90 changed the course of our life and in ways that we never thought that it would be possible and this number by itself indicates the importance and significance of a digital time solution for your department or organization this slide here gives an idea about how long it takes to complete a digital signing process you would be surprised to know that in gsa prior to the introduction of digital signatures applications gave them roughly about 90 days to complete which was basically because of the manual cumbersome you know task of printing signing scanning uploading and that took time and ever since digital signatures was introduced over 70 percent of the transactions are getting done within an hour that is amazing their worst case scenario right now is around 21 days and this is enormous amount of improvement in the speed which this saves time it saves money and so traceable so to summarize here are a couple of slides to give you an idea about how we started with dss and how far along we have come like with any public sector initiative our first couple of years were spent in product deduction understanding the mission the vision the goals followed by a long process of acquiring the authorization to operate ato as its known and once we had that we started with a small set of initial users in 2016 about 500 plus as i mentioned earlier in the same year we also decided upon the framework and architecture of the solution because this organization did quite quite you know they had this amount of customization that they had that you had to really take it very seriously so in the year 2017 we did an enterprise wide release of the solution and onboarded our very first customized application followed by more integrations in 2018 and that you will see in the next slide as you can see here in 2018 we had more users and another integration completed which by 2019 added up to four application integrations and more than 6000 users bear in mind each time we had more users we had to provide training for these efficient users to make sure they understand the capabilities of the solution 2020 being the most exciting year for digital signatures with a whopping 17 000 users and a total of 10 application integration which to be honest we're extremely proud of and consider our biggest achievement till date in conclusion this is a solution which has been accepted not only by the users but also by management for the sheer reason of how it makes their process simple traceable fast and reliable it would be an understatement if i say we had good results because we actually had astounding results with unprecedented appreciation for the solution to summarize i would like to add that for this to be successful it's important to start small and grow iteratively management support obviously is very very crucial continuous sessions of end user training is another key part and it is necessary to understand the organization's current process and landscape so that a customer solution can be provided to them so with that we conclude our presentation are there any other questions that you would want us to address we are open for questions now yes and so since we're open for questions let's uh if we can unmute everyone and uh uh i had a quick question conceptually when you think about what a notary performs what a notary does why it's important you you ask yourself the question well how is that different from what the public private key or other security methodologies or the electronic signature in some respects one could argue that the electronic signature is more secure even than a notary stamp in many respects the only difference is that one's physical and the other is not um and that's just food for thought for everybody um why don't you take your slide down and let's put everybody's um picture up those who who are putting their video up and uh who who would like to ask a question just jump right in so i still have everyone muted um i think if i unmute everyone it's going to get really loud really quick so if there's a particular person you'd like to need to unmute um i involved your name in the in the chat saying [Music] about i just uh give you the name and and you and me okay if they if they and then they can say yes or no uh rebecca asked a question regarding records management e-signatures i think that sedonkey did give a pretty good answer there but it's important i noted that you can put the entire record into your repository and manage the retention in your repository whether or not docusign has retention management capability i don't know could you speak to that document does have some standard retention policy but they always suggest that uh they do not want to be a content management system so they have some kind of policies in their configuration and we could decide that for an organization on their need basis it could be six months it could be three months depends on them but most of the customers would like integration with a content management system makes sense makes sense thank you for that um how would that how would that happen obviously we don't want records to sit in docusign especially if docusign doesn't want to be used as a as a content management system how then would we get them into like a sharepoint solution sure so that's a good question and document has and just make it a little technical i'm gonna try to simplify as much as i can so docusign has connect services every time your organization's transaction is completed which means all signers have completed signings we get a notification from doc design saying that this particular envelope has completed signing and we take it from them we take that information from them and it is a customized code behind the scenes which is going to massage the data that we get from docusign grab all the documents related to that particular transaction id it would include the signed documents and the audit trails associated with it and grab it and put it in your preferred content repository so it could be sharepoint in your case and you may have you may say something like zulangi our hr department would like to store these documents in the chart order in this particular format based on org numbers and we could do that we could take that metadata and we could put it in a certain format in that folder structure and you can say that you know your id department wants to be added to older structure in a different fashion and we could customize it accordingly but for the end user it's going to be a very seamless automated process because this happens behind the scene so by the time they complete signing in less than a minute this transaction behind the scenes has already taken place and it's already in sharepoint for your users to see so is it would it be a connector between the two or would there have to be a um a third entity between um docusign and the content management system yes so there is going to be a connector between the two of them so you will need so our customized solution would reside on say uh in your on-prem uh server or something like that and so our customized solution basically docusign is gonna connect to that customized solution and we go ahead and connect with your sharepoint server to make sure that you have your records ah okay excellent thank you rebecca very very good question and very good answer by the way arvin asks a question about non-repudiation and audit trail features of docusign i think you touched on that could you address that one do you want to speak to that please so the audit train yeah non-repudiation and audit trail features okay so uh now we need to be fairly brief in our answers and we can follow up because otherwise a lot of people have questions so we might not get to them all sure so on the audit trail process uh i know docusign it basically follows a certain standards now um in your particular case i think what we need to do is uh look at it for your particular case and we we will be able to answer that question and we do uh work with docusign hand in hand so if you are unable to get the answers quickly in that case we may be able to reach out to the the technical team at office side and we okay um we have a question from um galen who has 3200 employees they're doing computerized training now and the question is uh how does he track that so i'm not sure that's a docusign function unless you're trying to give certification or something that they were in the training who would like to address that so gail is the question related to um tracking a transaction in docusign like for example if there are five signers and you want to know at what point say two days after you sent out your envelope what point is it in the process of signatures uh if it is something like with how many signers have completed signing how many signers are still waiting on then yes that traceability is possible through docusign they have amazing business process model and you will know exactly at what time as a sender you will exactly know at what time what is the status of that transaction um bit sign is completed returner has been completed and so on and so forth okay i'm going to give an example in the mortgage industry i'm aware of i've done some records management work there and the national mortgage let's call the nmls national mortgage loan system anyway what happens is every year the people who are licensed through that have to get training and that training has to be certified by the training organization and so what happens you go to the training organization you sign up you sign in and as you complete each component you you get a well they control it very tightly if you uh aren't doing taking some action within a certain period of time they log you out you have to log back in and so that's a process that where essentially computerized training they're tracking it and at the end they issue a certificate i i don't believe based on what i know uh that docusign's really uh designed for that kind of thing and may require some other technology that that can be implemented to do that i'm going to move on to uh edgar had a question how to make a strong case for e-signatures we could go deeply into that but i think this presentation makes a pretty darn good case uh for e-signatures by the way global e-sign was was implemented 21 years ago and ueta which is the uniform electronic transactions act uh i mean is in all 50 states not everyone has adopted it a whole cloth it's it's not a mandatory thing but those two together basically 20 years they've been on the books people just have not paid attention to it so th re is a very strong case both in terms of what uh was being presented about gsa and how what they're doing but also in law there's there's plenty of backbone in law supporting electronic signatures i'm going to move to cora cora you were asking about how to manage retention disposition i think that was answered uh that you really need to move the information over to your content management platform and then um verification of signatures in docusign who would like to tackle that sedunkey or naranjan so i could speak to that sorry go ahead so what was the question verification of the yeah essentially uh how does docusign how does it happen the docusign uh verifies the signatures you know what's the method what's what's in the background so so they basically uh use the certificates and based on how you're logged into docusign and how your what computing you you're using so there are all these algorithms that are running in the background so based on that they can identify and they will once somebody signs on a document they basically record the those keys and those are saved along with that signature so there is a process to verify and the audit trail is based on that you know the the record that they created when somebody signs it so it is uh so everything is computerized and basically what they call is uh signature digest so when somebody signs it in that case they make a note of the signature they create a certificate they have a unique private key associated with that so everything is traceable uh so nobody else can replicate that we hope that answers okay so we have about six minutes left thank you naranjan um do we have any uh any questions that uh apparently it's difficult for us to open all the mics so if you have another question please put it in the chat um yeah there was one at the end that i saw you know okay what is the most common challenges with implementing docusign do you have any sort of lessons learned about you know just things that your customers are finding as a challenge yes so with any kind of sad solution there's always certain degree of challenges that we face docusign definitely does a good job with ui interface they do a good job with security and they do an amazing job with reporting and analytics data as well where it is a little limited compared to some other uh signature solutions that i have seen is with their respace apis and their jungle sdks which are specifically used for integration so the weight falls on people like us who have to be the research folks here to kind of understand their code base properly and then kind of put a solution out so that it actually covers all kinds of exceptions issues or user errors that may happen so the one thing that i think there have there are some limitations with pakistan is definitely with their apis and java sdk but there are workarounds i always say there are five solutions to one problem so there are always workarounds to figure it out and fix it so if i understand you correctly uh sudanke that the this is a java based api set yeah okay good that was a question that i had um i we have about four or five minutes left uh yep about six minutes actually and um i uh would like to i'd like to open this up more uh we're going to have to work on our our platform and the way that we uh we do this so there can be a little more interaction without the fear of a cacophony of voices but let me make a few announcements just um to make sure everybody has the information we're going to be doing a records knowledge conference april 28th 2021. it's going to be a half day conference we're planning it now and this area of knowledge electronic signatures electronic verification of acknowledgements all that kind of thing are going to be one track in the record knowledge conference again april 28 2021 you might want to mark your calendars you all got notification of this webinar via email so we will be announcing and sending out invites for the record silence conference that said we're going to be holding several other webinars like this we're getting better at it we hope and bringing to you um topics that we think are important for records management but also for business process management um another point to make here is that these slides are going to be made available to you through the armasac.org website so that's a-r-m-a-s-a-c-dot-org and that's where you'll be able to access um these uh these slides uh with that sadongi in your experience is there anything that you would like to offer to our attendees from your experience in the five-year that's a long time integration into gsa any anything off the top yes so specifically i think we have to make it a phrased approach start small and take your time to understand the current processes of that organization we are trying to implement usually most of the organizations have some common ground so we can come up with some custom apis for that organization which fits their applications in general and starting small integrating one system at a time and then growing from it is the best way to do it i think that's good advice um well we have uh three minutes left in the webinar so if anybody has any questions now's the time don't ask real technical questions like so donkey what api set would i use to achieve x that's that's for another discussion uh but if you have some general questions please let's use the time that we have anybody any suggestions that you might want to make for topics in our next webinar so i just changed it so that someone can emu unmute themselves oh all right now they can do it manually that way if people don't want a new i won't force them okay all right so anybody going to jump in yourself you can i have a suggestion on running the participation of the participants is there's a feature called raise your hand we use this for our council meetings so that whoever's running the meeting can call on the people to speak yeah so that's another way to make it more efficient thank you for that that's a good suggestion right so anyone can unmute themselves now you have the power hey i just wanna i just wanna thank you guys for giving me the opportunity to join this session uh especially thanks to nintendon and sudangi for such an insightful session i'm joining from london it's already 10 p.m here but this has been great use of my time uh thank you very much we appreciate it thank you we just heard that you're uh for the next six months you're probably not going to be able to dine out that's right yes yeah all right we'll be safe over there thank you very much well look forward to uh our next webinar we'll be announcing and uh again if you uh if you have any suggestions put them in the in the chat or um uh email us uh at armasac you can see our board of directors that sort of thing uh we'd be happy to uh take on some challenges in the records management area that that specifically concern you with that if we don't have any more questions i think we'll close the meeting anybody last chance okay we need a zoom applause capability here all right thank you thank you everybody thank you thank you chad for uh for editing this uh event i really appreciate it so we got a chance to share a few things from our side so appreciate it you