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to our webinar tonight thank you for joining us this evening my name is anushka i'm from the mate program at griffith university and i'm going to be facilitating tonight's discussion i believe we have admitted everybody in from the waiting room i have popped some self-care information into the chat please post your questions into the chat but we'll go in a little bit further into some of the webinar uh ground rules as we go forward so before i before we get into it i would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land that we are all meeting on tonight wherever we may be uh i sit here on the land of the uh on bunjalon country the land of the jugembe people and the cumberland salt water people i acknowledge their deep spiritual connection to this land the sea and their millennial old culture and i acknowledge that i have benefited from living on stolen land and that sovereignty was never seeded i recognize all aboriginal torres strait islander faces or people onto this webinar tonight and thank you all for joining us given that this is a webinar that we are bringing to you as part of the 16 days of activism against gendered violence i'd also like to acknowledge all victims and survivors of violence against women in our culture uh we are doing this work for you and we will all of us here who are presenting tonight will continue to do this work uh in your name until we eliminate violence against women uh and i acknowledge your strength and your courage and thank you for being here also family and domestic family domestic and sexual violence is a major health and welfare issue in fact i would label it a national crisis a long-standing pandemic affecting one in three women globally and claiming the life of at least one woman a week per year consistently year after year in australia it occurs across all ages and all socioeconomic and demographic groups but predominantly affects women and children there are some groups of women at higher risk including women with a disability first nations women pregnant women women experiencing separating from their partners and women experiencing financial hardship violence can be perpetrated by a current or former partner an informal carer a child young person within the family unit or a relative you will hear us using gender binary language tonight so we talk in terms of man and woman however we however we recognize that there are more than just men and women and that domestic and family violence occurs in all relationships including same-sex transgender and gender diverse relationships we gender this conversation because international evidence tells us that the drivers of domestic and family violence and the underlying dynamics are gendered and if we address these drivers we'll go a long way to addressing violence within any intimate relationship importantly domestic and family violence is 100 preventable and we all have an important role to play in creating safe equal homes free from violence so let's get into it some things to remember uh the content discussed during this webinar may be confronting and may cause distress please disconnect from the conversation should you feel like you need to and please contact 1 800 respect which is australia's 24 7 confidential counselling hotline or any of the numbers we've posted in the chat function there also we will revisit those numbers again at the end of the session moving forward please stay muted unless you're asking questions and keep the camera off to limit distractions uh avoid distractions scrolling through the webinar we'd love to keep you keep you focused and recognize that this is one hour important hour of your time and an opportunity to learn how we can all make a difference so stay with us uh save up the questions for question time at the end and if you're asking a question relating to someone or anyone you know and how you can provide support to them please don't disclose anything that might identify them be mindful of others in how you communicate in the chat please be kind and remember that this webinar will be recorded so if you don't want your name to be uh visible in that recording please pop out and maybe adjust your name in the way that it is visible on the screen okay it's my great pleasure to introduce you now to our expert panel sean ross smith is currently the director of the mate bystander program at griffith university with a career spanning almost 20 years in the criminal justice sector sean has a vast experience in working with perpetrators of serious and violent crimes victims and their families and the agencies who oversee domestic violence in queensland sean is also the chair of tv connect queensland's 24 7 phone line for women experiencing domestic violence dv connect also has a sexual assault and a men's line shawn chooses to work along the continuum of domestic violence in both the response phase and the prevention space so that ensures that she's well informed in her advocacy her facilitation and and her leadership in this space shauna i want to ask you a question to kick off uh why is this poppy this topic important to you hi thanks for having me um and thanks everyone for joining us tonight i know that six o'clock um on the night that certainly for me my kids go on um christmas holidays um is a difficult time but i really appreciate everyone joining us um why is this topic important to me because as a human being i cannot bear to think that there are women inside their communities relationships homes and spaces that feel unsafe at the hands of the man who's supposed to love them um i feel like it's my responsibility as a woman of privilege who enjoys a safe and equal relationship to advocate for and do all i can to eliminate violence against women um but it's actually on all of us i think too so i cannot think of a more important role than looking out for an advocating for women um because women are pretty incredible and we do some pretty incredible things and so that's why i'm here thanks sean and now i'd like to introduce vanessa fowler following the death of her sister who was murdered at the hands of her husband in april 2012 vanessa and her parents turned their anger and sadness into something positive by starting a conversation around family and domestic violence vanessa is on a journey to empower and educate the community around the signs of domestic violence and teach tactics to become an active and effective bystander as an educator it's important for vanessa to address the underlying attitudes and cultural beliefs that perpetuate gender inequality and the socialization that leads to violence against women and children vanessa going to you why is the bystander approach in particular so important to you and your family i feel that we are passionate about the bystander effect because we as alison's family and her friends were the bystanders in her situation and looking back if we'd have known then what we know now after all of the um information that we've received since uh sitting through her six-week trial um we really would have done better we we could have done better and we should have done better um but we didn't know what we didn't know at the time and i think that um in order for allison's legacy to be a positive one we really need to reach out to the community and my parents and i feel that it's important that we are able to share our experience so that others feel empowered to step in and certainly perhaps change someone's life or save someone's life and for us it's all about paying it forward and making sure that people are aware and they have the skills and and the the tools necessary to be an effective bystander thanks vanessa and i absolutely know that the work you are doing is saving and and is prompting conversations that will change lives so thank you so much for what for what you do and what you have brought to this space and finally kellyanne tansley welcome kellyanne is the service manager for brisbane domestic violence service and activity of market projects bdbs has five programs supporting survivors of domestic and family violence and their children bdbs also provides group intervention to men who use violence within their relationships kellyanne has over 11 years experience working in queensland in both child protection and specialist domestic and family violence not-for-profit organizations originally from the uk kellyanne studied honours in psychology at cambridge and worked for several uk government agencies in supporting vulnerable and at-risk people kellyanne is a strong advocate for women and children's safety and equality with expertise in evidence-based frameworks of practice and risk management and kellyanne raises the voices of the women supported at bdbs in advocacy at local and government levels around system reform and best practice models kellyanne why is this topic important to you um thank you anushka and before i start off i just want to say it's an absolute privilege to be here tonight with vanessa and sean and um share our work and our experiences in hopefully raising awareness within community and professional private settings um around domestic and family violence um and i hope throughout this webinar we can provide some product practical um tactics and um intervention strategies for those of you attending um with us this evening so why is this important topic so important to me as the service leader of bws it's important to me because it's really important to women at any given time at bdvs we can be supporting up to four 500 victim survivors of domestic and family violence and we sit in a really privileged position where we hear the intimate details of their experiences of abuse and their stories often within those stories women share with us the reason they came to connect with our service and times where they've been supported by family members friends colleagues at work or other professionals for some women these experiences are incredibly positive um they've made a disclosure or somebody within the community or within their family has identified behaviors um that are a little bit concerning a little bit alarming and they've created an opportunity for the woman to share her experience which often then leads to her reaching out for professional support from services such as my own in other situations um the experience isn't as positive for women um some women share with us that they've reached out for support and made a disclosure and they felt like they haven't been heard um that they weren't believed that the behaviors of the perpetrator were minimized um in some instances excused you know they've heard things such as well maybe he's had a bad day at work or maybe you're under some financial pressures or you know the kids have been really naughty recently maybe that's why he's treating you and behaving the way he is and this can be quite problematic to women because it takes a lot of courage for them to reach out and make a disclosure or seek support and if at those times they feel unheard or not believed it can validate the abuse which is being perpetrated on them and prevent them for reaching out for professional support so for us here at bws and we're really committed to raising awareness within community and reaching out to colleagues within the workplace and professionals within professional settings um to describe what domestic and family violence is the impact it has on victims survivors and children and hopefully support by standards in understanding how they can support safety disclosures and victims to seek professional services such as such as our own thanks kellyanne you're absolutely right that bystanders play such an important role in invalidating the experience of uh the person who's experiencing violence and showing that support from that very first disclosure or actually placing themselves there as somebody who is able to receive a disclosure in a safe and respectful way as well vanessa if i can go to you now um thank you for sharing your lived experience uh with us and and with the world for the sake of education in the years after losing alison you've had a steep learning curve about domestic and family violence and i have been part of that journey with with you and i can i can absolutely attest to how steep that learning curve has been for all of us um what would you say is important for family and friends to recognize as domestic violence well i think the most important thing is that um domestic violence is not just physical i know that as a family um we did we knew very little about domestic violence and thought that it wouldn't happen to us if that doesn't happen to us um that happens to other people um and we were looking for physical signs but um after um our journey together with you and sean um our family has certainly come to the realization that domestic violence manifests itself in so many different ways and um i'd like to um implore people uh out there who are listening to please look for those non-physical signs emotional abuse financial abuse technological abuse because those are are very very important and those are often not so obvious to recognize and in our situation um there was no physical signs in alison's case so um that was very hard for us to see it was very hard for us to justify what was going on behind closed doors and in the end it was only through her diary in her journal that was a part of evidence at the trial and also um in hindsight just picking up on some of the things that we saw that went on and we knew what was going on we realized we have realized since her death that they were aspects of of domestic violence and um she was suffering in silence and we as a family didn't know that so um we will live with that guilt for um a very long time thanks vanessa thanks thanks for sharing um i think one of the really important factors that we talk about in the training that we facilitate that that uses alison's experience thanks to your family is that um allison didn't know what she was experiencing either right it was and that your gut feeling your instinct as a family were telling you that something wasn't quite right you you just didn't have the language to be able to have that conversation or to ask questions or to prompt discussion yes i think it's very important that people do trust their intuition you know you know um in our case i i knew my sister and we knew her as a daughter and the things that she was going through were really out of character her behavior was out of character and um we knew that there was something not quite right but of course as i said we weren't aware that it was domestic violence and so we thought that she was strong enough and determined enough to make her marriage work and she would come through it in the end but unfortunately he had the power and control over her and ultimately took her life thank you vanessa sean over to you how do you best describe uh domestic violence how would you describe it to someone and given you've directed the mate program for a number of years now what are the key messages you deliver in training to community members regarding recognizing domestic and family violence thanks norsh um i just wanted to go back to something that vanessa just said because vanessa we actually delivered allison's gift today to a major um organization and i begged and pleaded that they would do away with every single manual and policy and procedure they had and just put just put a sign up saying go with your gut because i really feel like we we're at this point now in 2020 where everything is so governed and we feel like there must be a manual of scripture something here that tells us how to do this but in actual fact it's your gut isn't it and that's what you're saying that your gut um top was telling you but we've been so conditioned not to go with that um so i just love that little bit that you added there vanessa um i define domestic violence as unequal power and control i feel like that's the easiest way to distinguish it from what it isn't um i think sometimes we get caught up in um you know when i ask people to describe domestic violence they can often describe characteristics of unequal power and control so things that somewhat things that a perpetrator may use to gain power and control may be emotional abuse isolation financial abuse that's that's the tools of the trade i guess but the reasoning behind that is to gain or maintain power and control and actually they do that with this element of fear that flows throughout it so that element that if i don't do what he's asking or i don't do what he's threatening or i don't fulfill this that what are the consequences what could happen for me um and that could be through a law connection a gesture so yeah i always say to people mush that that's the best way to describe it um so why am i here and what's the mate program so the mate bystander program is essentially a personal leadership program and it's imp it empowers everyone really to step into their personal leadership because we're all leaders right um about finding ways to speak up and and and say something when we hear something that isn't okay um but it's more than that um it's also a program that helps bystanders better understand what they might be seeing or hearing um and how to safely navigate those conversations mate also talks about what lies beneath um the pointy end of violence so how do we find ourselves living in a culture or a society or a world particularly in australia where one woman a week or over one woman a week is being murdered at the hands of her partner um we're here because of the culture around us that supports violence so um things like sexist jokes and language and all of those things that disempower women so actually violence against women occurs at every level of society um individually in the family in our community in society and globally so we want to at mate we want to dismantle that and we want to ensure that women are afforded the same opportunities as men um well not the same but the equal opportunities as men and finally um i just wish that i had known this stuff that i had received mate at the front end of my career when i was starting out because i realized now that i actually made i worked in um in the criminal justice system for a long time and i actually made women more unsafe um and i did that by not knowing how i was contributing to the problem just not knowing what i was doing that was contributing um either through my inaction through my apathy or um or even contributing to violent supportive attitudes laughing along at jokes and things like that so mates i guess an all-inclusive program that talks to what it is why it's not okay and how we can all address it and prevent it um yeah so i love it i i i just you know i know that i sound like i'm selling tupperware when i talk about um this program but i remember i went to a session five years ago before i joined this team um and my predecessor dr shannon springs murdoch was run was facilitating it and i sat there with my mouth wide open just going how did i not know this how have i come this far and i didn't know this stuff um how did i make assumptions or decisions on behalf of women and victims of domestic violence without asking them without understanding their journey and what was happening for them and i really want to make sure that i can take this message to everyone out there so that we can we can eliminate this this is a hundred percent preventable so that's that's it and that's made and that's what we do i guess just really quickly no mate goes all across australia we travel all across australia we've got lots of different consultants um some of them on the line tonight and um we deliver our message to universities to prisons to government organizations anyone that will have us we have conversations about this stuff because if we don't who's going to if we don't do this who's going to this is really important conversation to be had and it's and it's up to me to have these conversations so i'll continue to do this work um until we've eliminated it and then i'll let everyone in on a secret here and that is that once we've eliminated violence against women i absolutely um commit to taking over bunnings and working at bunnings and and um just working in the outdoor you know furniture section for for a couple of nights a week because the reality is this is a hundred percent preventable and it just makes me so um devastated to think that there were three women in the last 48 hours murdered at the hands of their partner or former partner in our country and it didn't make the news i didn't see it on any of the local news stations i haven't heard about it much in the media to me if that was three people murdered in any other way we would be hearing about it non-stop in fact some of the shows on tv may have stopped in their tracks in order for that to be breaking news that is not okay for me thanks nosh agreed we should all be outraged um and thank you thank you for the work that that you do in this space and the incredible advocate that you are um kellyanne shawn talked about power and control and and pound control being the underlying dynamic of domestic violence and um we know that brisbane domestic violence service has been advocating for the criminalization of coercive control um why do you think this is important for increasing the community's understanding of of domestic and family violence and and how will it address domestic and family violence in the long term look um i think a lot of the points both vanessa and sean have both touched on um hopefully um i can tie into my response of this answer um you know it really saddens me to hear vanessa's guilt around not identifying um alison's experience but i hear what you're saying anushka when you remind vanessa that alison um also wasn't aware of what was occurring to her this is not a unique situation um we support thousands of women each year at bbvs and within my career i've had the privilege of talking directly to hundreds of women about their experience many of whom come to us and they have as sean mentioned this that feeling you know something's not right there hasn't been a physical act of violence so they don't identify that they're in a domestic and family violence situation they feel uncomfortable they know that some of the behaviors that are being perpetrated on them by their partner are not okay they feel that their sense of self is corroded um they often have loss of eye identity you know the person they were before is quite different to the person who they are now um but they've often been subjected to a pattern form of abuse over a prolonged period of time which is quite secretive and cover um and gradually increases as the duration of the relationship goes on so because of that and because of the subtle nature of it and often people around them not identifying or picking up um that the behaviors that that their partner is using um is abusive um and then themselves and they stay within the relationship and with it continuing going with their own internal struggles of a corrosion of sense of self and identity um and this is a very familiar story we hear from many women um that connect with our service so that's why we think it's incredibly important to raise awareness around coercive control and talk to people about what these behaviors look like so the community professionals colleagues friends and family members victims survivors can identify these behaviors um and the patterned nature um is red flags and then hopefully reach out to seek support i want to share with you i kind of want to unpack some of the behaviors of coercive control but share with you a little bit of um context as well um so as a specialist domestic and family violence service um we've always understood coercive um control um as power and control so it was in 1984 the incredible ellen pants and her team at the domestic abuse intervention project in duluth america developed what what we all often many of us professionals in the sector know now as the power and control wheel now i'm just going to share my screen with you all um so you can all have a look at this tool um because when we're working with women for them often it's when they see this tool they you you know they have an epiphany and because they identify with many of the behaviors within the segments so as you can see there on the tool um it's a circle with various different segments outlining categories of abuse and underneath um the categories is descriptions of behaviors now 85 to 90 percent of these behaviors that are within this real are what we now call um cohesive control behaviors and at the center of the real is power and control because as we understand domestic and family violence it's a pattern form of abuse to assert power and control over the victim um worldwide this is the most referenced tool um in the domestic and family violence sector for professionals and what we're really happy to see is in more recent years other professionals and healthcare settings gps and practitioners are using this tool to understand domestic and family violence um what this tool reminds us is that it's a misconception that domestic violence is just only physical abuse um we still are responding to dv um as a system as a society as incidents and coercion and control um allows us to understand that it's a patterned nature over a period of time with intent to instill fear to manipulate the victim to degrade the victim to isolate the victim from social supports and networks so this is why coercive control is really important to us as a service in many countries around the world this is illegal or they're considering um making um coercive control illegal um and anyone can experience it but as you mentioned at the start anushka um statistics tell us that at an international level and a national level and within our um own service here in brisbane um that this is a gendered issue um and it's often grounded in gender-based privilege um here at bws 80 percent of the women that connect with our service describe to us behaviors that have been perpetrated towards them that are coercive and controlling um by nature and furthermore and there was just a recent review in new south wales and that looked at homicides over a period of time and what they found within that review is that 99 of their cases and the relationships were characterized by coercion and control now um what i'd really like to kind of describe to you all today is what these behaviors look like because that's what we're all here today that's what we're here on this webinar to learn more to pick up the red flags understand this subtle nature of abuse so hopefully we can intervene offer support and create opportunities for disclosures um from victims um it's really important to remember that the behaviors i'm now about to describe um don't happen in isolation and they're often systematic um and happen together in a pattern form and often over a period of time so one of the main forms of coercion and control we see and women share with us here at bws is isolation now this can happen in many forms but a lot of women tell us what it looks like is the perpetrator in in insisting that they share social media accounts that he has access to her mobile phone um that cutting off ties with family and friends um and this can happen in a couple of different ways um fabricating lies about the victim um to family and friends um or um making up stories um that you know family and friends dislike the victims so then she cuts off ties and becomes isolated um one of the other tactics we see in here from women is the monitoring of the woman's activities um and this can be in insisting that um she informs the perpetrator of her whereabouts when she's out in the community or keeps um you know um communication open with him around what she's doing at work who she's with um who she's had contact with um in some cases where we're seeing high levels of power and control this looks like avert surveillance um you know cameras in the home cameras sometimes in the bedroom gps tracking devices in mobile phones um and in children's toys and um children's devices as well um another um behavior used in relationships that i um have coalition and control where the perpetrator is perpetrating this form of abuse is denying the victim of freedom um and this can look different for each woman but often some of the things we see is restricting her access to education um to the workforce to social networks restricting access of transportation and once again and stalking and surveillance with devices and fines um women often share with us one of the most um one of the forms of coercion and control that has a significant psychological impact um is name-calling and put-downs so um this is often quite malicious and um that the abuser um will um be using frequent um criticisms and bullying types of behavior which often corrodes a woman's sense of self um confidence and identity um this with the other forms of isolation limiting finances so in insisting on shared bank accounts not allowing the woman to have credit cards um within her own right um put in restrictions so strict budget restrictions is something women share with us a lot here at bdbs um and then her having to explain where money's been spent um what she's bought in shopping is often something they share with us um women when they connect with our service are often in need of financial assistance in the form of food vouchers transport vouchers because they've been limited um from access to finances or they don't have bank accounts in their own names or they've been restricted from accessing employment opportunities another behavior or tactic of coercive control we see quite frequently here at bws um it's a reinforcement of traditional gender roles now this isn't always even in heterosexual relationships we see this also in same-sex relationships and this is where the perpetrator or the abuser is insistent that the victim is the primary caregiver of the children that has to take care of all the cleaning duties within the household and the cooking and often puts with that an expectation or a standard in which the perpetrator feels that the victim needs to achieve um to keep him happy and and please him um and if um this standard hasn't been achieved of you know keeping the house tidy and clean or the quality of the food or the way in which the children are being raised often then we see other tactics being used so the isolation freights name calling belittling and various other strategies within coercive control it's always important to talk about reproduction coercion we work with a lot of women here at bws that have had multiple pregnancies in short succession from each other forced pregnancies we work with women who are restricted access to contraception women who are forced to take contraception when that's not what they feel comfortable with um some women who have restricted access to clinics to support them with terminations um with what unwanted um pregnancies as well reproduction coercion um is something we see quite frequently within our service and often um for women um this has a huge impact on other areas of their lives so women who we support who have been forced into multiple pregnancies and births are then more vulnerable with limited access to the workforce or education or social opportunities because of course um they've spent a lot of the time um child rearing and pregnant um as well um jealous accusations a lot of women talk to us about jealousy at bws and talk to us where social gatherings or within the workforce um or within um you know even friends and families and social groups that if they're seen to be engaging or talking to somebody of the opposite sex and the perpetrator becomes highly um jealous and controlling and making threats towards them this often leads women into retreating from social situations without confidence or fear in trying to make new um connections um and also in the workforce which um then really kind of reinforces that isolation for her and leaves her feeling that she's very limited in her ability um to be able to make other connections and reach out um one of the behaviours that women share with us quite frequently um when they're in relationships that are characterized by coercion and control is threats that perpetrators make towards their children or towards their pets um often this is then a barrier for them feeling confident to exit the relationship through fear of the repercussions on the on the safety of the children or that the perpetrator will try to um you know remove the children take the children back use the system to try and gain access and control of the children um or with pets if they're looking to come into safe accommodation into shelters and these shelters or safe accommodation options can't support them with their pets there's fear there that the perpetrator will harm the pets should they leave their family home and often this fear is to that level um with the mix of the isolation the financial abuse the threats the derogatory language the put-downs the lack of connection to social supports and systems friends and family um prevent women from having the confidence or feeling safe enough to take the step to remove themselves um from the relationship um so i just wanted to really um really unpack some of these behaviors with you all here today because in isolation as um single incidents or single events all of us um you know could quite easily ignore them or brush them off attribute it to you know the perpetrator having a bad day the family being under stress and pressure but when we really take a step back and understand this as a form of abuse with intent to instill fair control manipulate isolate the victim we can start to understand how complex it is and what a significant impact it has to the emotional well-being of victims and survivors and to their ability to be able to um seek support and accept these relationships thank you thanks so much kellyanne it's all it all going through that power and control wheel unpacking what coercive control is is so important for bystanders it's so important for um i mean all the research around bystander intervention means that we it shows that we have to actually understand that what we're seeing is an issue and for us to be able to do that and understand those non-physical signs of violence we need to really be able to see what coercive control actually looks like what it sounds like and what we might be seeing or hearing or sensing as a bystander so thank you for that in-depth um explanation vanessa what advice would you give to people about uh around having a conversation about domestic and family violence with their their loved ones or their friends oh i think that um the first piece of advice i'd give to to them is to actually go ahead and have the conversation because um the main barrier i think a lot of people come up against is um fear they fear that um if they say something there's going to be um consequences for the victim or if there's children involved and i know that in our situation um that was the case we felt that if we pushed that little bit harder to find out exactly what was going on in the marriage that there would be consequences for allison and the three children and that that may be physical um abuse involved um i think that it's important that people overcome that fear and gain the courage and confidence to step in and to actually have that conversation because if you're not going to have that conversation who is and it's really important that if you've noticed something then um the situation is probably already pretty bad it's probably um quite uh it's it's worse than what you put you have initially thought but um i basically it might my recommendation would be to decide to have the conversation um gain that courage to to have the conversation but importantly along the way you need to also change your mindset you know you know i think that a lot of us are conditioned to think well we have to mind our own business and we can't interfere in anybody else's marriage or relationship um they are going to work it out themselves and we just have to let them um work through the issues but um i really think that we all need to be busy bodies and we need to step in and actually have the conversation that's the most important thing that i can stress to people thanks vanessa sean i want to throw it over to you i won't i'm wondering if you can address for our participants tonight that fear of making it worse from your perspective and and some of the things that you could say or or some of the most effective questions you could ask as an effective bystander if you're feeling that fear yeah great question nausea how amazing are these participants the questions that are coming through i'm like can we please just have three days with these incredible um people who want to do something and this is the thing everyone wants to do something we just need those tools um what i want to say is that um if your intent is good if you're coming from a place of really reaching out and wanting to do the right thing um you can't get it wrong right so that's a really important number one thing to know um if you're reaching you you think about a time where someone's reached out to you and when that you know you might be going through something and something's you know been happening for you they weren't someone that had all the answers they weren't someone that came and said right sean i've got a 12-step manual we're going to sit down and work through this systematically if you're someone that wants to go give me support just show up with some food and say hey sean you know you're looking a bit stressed here i am and actually anushka has done that for me so many times this year um because i've had a really challenging year and she's just showing up with some food and said i'm here the beautiful parts about um about that is she didn't come to me with any judgment she didn't come to me with expectations of what i should and shouldn't do and her support didn't have an expiry date um but often i want to take that away from me for a moment and talk about um domestic violence there were some questions there about what what people could do or say oftentimes we think that we have to ask the question which is are you experiencing domestic violence and yet that's um very rarely the question of bystander would ask more often than not um that beautiful line of are you okay are you okay you know you seem a bit um you know quiet today sean is everything okay for you um or i like i i guess i think if you think about what is what works for you i like when someone's been a bit vulnerable with me so i don't know about you sean but i've just had a really challenging year how's your year been going you know i know when um when i was trying to navigate homeschooling it was difficult and what that does is just allow that person to kind of go okay i don't we're not kind of keeping up appearances here i can i can speak a bit more of my truth um but i guess if i want to take you back to that wheel that kellyanne so beautifully articulated a moment ago and say and i want to say to you print out that wheel and have a think about it if someone is going through something and you're a bystander a loved one um think about as a bystander what you might see so if that person's experiencing financial abuse you might see that perhaps they're not coming to the lunches that you're having or they're not or they're not you know doing certain things and just being able to say um you know how are you going this year with with finances i'm really struggling or i'm finding it's really quite a challenge or how do you work it out in your home because you know i'm trying to do it this budget and i don't really know how to do it so opening up with um bits about yourself always helps for other people to open up about their stuff don't forget that people might actually say oh no i'm i'm cool everything's okay here um but nothing lost right from doing that so i say if you've shown up with the best of intentions you you absolutely can't um get it wrong um and we could talk about that for a long time i'd love um for anyone here if you feel like reaching out to any of us at the end of this so please do so nush you had a question here for me about engaging men do you want me to talk to that yeah please okay i'll try and keep it really brief because there's so many important people talking about some really cool stuff um some strategies for engaging men around domestic and family violence no one is engaging men no one is um holding the men who use violence accountable and having vital conversations or doing the work there are very few men and those men are incredible in this space we absolutely need them but we need more of them we continue to place an emphasis on women to seek help and to move out of their home to go to court we put the emphasis on women supporting women and um there's all these probably the majority of women are in this chat tonight right and we we're saying what can we do we actually need men um to speak up but when i talk to men about what's holding them back they often give me a couple of really good tidbits of advice the first one is tell me that i'm not going to make it worse for women if i say something to him tell me i'm not going to make it worse so i say that then things are already worse she needs you and me and all of us to say hey that's not a cool thing you just said about hannah or let's go for lunch somewhere and chill out let's go for a camping trip or a drive or whatever it might be and actually ask questions like are you okay what's going on for you i've had a rough year tell me about yours i'd love to hear how you manage stuff at home i'm really struggling um or just opening up with some conversations that we want men to have but we haven't equipped them with those tools of how to do that because we've often told you know we've often given these rigid gender stereotypes that tell boys to just be quiet and do the stuff so we've got to make sure that for the next generation we're inviting boys and young men to be comfortable having these conversations um men will say help me understand that what i'm saying is not going to make him go off at me and i say you don't need to ask are you using violence in your home you don't need to address it directly you could use something that feels safe and comfortable so asking are you okay i've noticed that you're seeing really withdrawn sad or down and i've been feeling that way too how can i help you um those are really amazing bystander tools that we should be using with men um who use violence and what if i don't always get my language right and i'm pulling up a mate but i'm not perfect no one's perfect um anushka and i actually pull each other up every single day on the language that we use so either one of us might say something in a sentence and then we the other one will say can we actually say that anymore is that contributing to a culture of violence and then we might google it or we'll do our research and come back and say no we actually can't say that anymore let's not say it so um getting houston familiar with doing that and neither and usually i take offense it's actually a really great learning opportunity um and you know what this is one that i know there's going to be people on this call that go come on sean but remind men of women the women in their life um and what they want for them we're not there yet where we can say that they that everyone should just respect women i'm a huge fan of meeting them where they're at and if we have to talk about um the women in their world let's do that and walk alongside them so what's important for them what do they want for the women in their life and we go from there what type of relationship would they like to see those women in how can they then contribute to a world that makes sure that that every man will treat every woman like that and um and and even if we start there look i've got daughters now where i've got a mother and a sister and an aunt so i'm all about women so i'm in this space because that's why if that's where if that's why that's the motivator that's absolutely beautiful as far as i'm concerned we need to absolutely harness and and do what we can with that so i guess that's a really long-winded way to answer your question no sorry no thank you that was that was beautiful i'm i'm going to do a little bit of improv because i can see that we are quickly running out of time um the chat has been really um in interactive um we have a question there from lucy or a statement there from lucy that i briefly addressed but kellyanne i want you um if you can please to talk to the participants about image management uh what that means as people using abuse and um what the impact is of the person who is experiencing their abuse um thank you and lucy and everybody who's been in the chat um absolutely thank you for having the courage to share experiences and also um being engaged and asking questions because this is what this is about right it's a conversation we don't have all the solutions to solve domestic and family violence yet but we're all working hard within our sector and creating opportunities to have conversations like this and engage victims and challenge perpetrators in safe and appropriate ways um as sean was just mentioning it is definitely you know the right step forwards but in talking about image management i think this is a critical part of understanding domestic and family violence we have to remember this is intimate partner violence victims love their perpetrators they were in an intimate partner relationship often or too often but thankfully not as frequently nowadays as i used to hear you know five or six years ago the comments of why doesn't she leave why doesn't she stay and hopefully when i was talking about coercive control we can understand how difficult it is for a victim to leave but often she loves him because he's not always this person and that's really important for us to remember um there's sometimes a bit of a myth around you know we call it the monster myth of perpetrators that these are going to be guys that are easily identiful and identified you know when we're walking down the street when we're at social gatherings within the workplace um within the sports precinct you know we'll know the perpetrator actually no you won't and he's most likely to be incredibly charismatic come across as a doting father um a beloved husband and the head of the family who works tirelessly to bring in the income you know for the wife for the children to be the protector to be the provider um and there i'm describing a lot of the issues which underpin um gendered violence here within our community i'm talking about toxic masculinity we don't have the um time to go into that today um but you know these are kind of the images men put forwards um we see this as well particularly um when we're in situations of high risk and police are called out um to incidences where victims have been harmed um menus strategies um the you know image management strategies call calm collective um but it's it's really important that um we have to remember that the tactics of power and control are quite subtle and always at play within these relationships but what we would call you know higher incidence of explosion phases um are often less frequent so the woman is hopeful that things are always going to get better and often the perpetrator um does a really good job at displaying um this image within the home and within community um that you know he's a great fella um and he would never engage in these type um types of behaviors thanks so much vanessa or sean anything to add to that or any final comments um i everything kellyanne said is exactly what i would say um he and and i notice in the chat there's a lot of conversation about that he will absolutely present us you see you actually see it play out in the media so you know the interviews um with with friends of his that will say he's a great guy such a great dad and um so that to me tells me that yeah he was able to keep up that facade um please know that we in this space in the domestic violence sector we all understand those nuances we see you we hear you we believe you and we are doing everything we can um to support you but we absolutely see that we know that and that's the education that we get out there as well so that you know that is the information that we're giving please know that we are trying to provide that voice um for you when we when we talk to people as kelly and just did then as vanessa did when she speaks and an ice cream myself vanessa oh i think um my final comment would be um to ensure that you um show the victim that um as a bystander you believe them you don't judge them and you're there to support them so i think that it's really important that as part of being an effective bystander the support that you show um is authentic and that you need to make sure that you are there when when your support is needed but the most important thing is believe and don't judge i think they're pretty good words to end on there vanessa um thank you so much thank you kellyanne your insights tonight and and what you have been able to share from your professional experience has been invaluable and i hope that people are taking away some key uh takeaways from particularly the power and control will vanessa i i tell you this all the time but please let me tell you again that what you are doing is changing and saving lives and thank you for your vulnerability and your courage in in assisting us to do that and to change this and eliminate violence against women for everyone and change our culture so that we can prevent it long-term and sean thank you so much for your leadership and your advocacy in this space uh your honest and uh authentic approach to being an effective bystander is is so accessible for everyone so thank you so much thank you all for attending our webinar this evening if you need further support i will leave the numbers here on the screen and reach out to any of us anytime through bdbs the alison baden clay foundation or mate and we are all uh on social media uh follow along with us we uh all of us are sharing some great resources about uh bystander behavior so please check in with us and please follow along and remain connected because uh we if we want to eliminate domestic and family plants it's going to take all of us and together we absolutely can and we will change the world so thank you so much