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the broadcast is now starting all attendees are in listen-only mode welcome everybody my name is Josh crawl and I'm going to be doing this webinar on adoption assistance I hope this will be of use to everybody and this webinar is being recorded so if you have to leave or you want to come back and review information it will be available on our website you are in a listen-only mode and I'll explain a little more about that on the next slide but I just wanted to let people know that this is we are I'm the project coordinator of the adoption subsea Resource Center we track information about all 50 states and canada adoption assistance or adoption subsea programs and this has been a program at Natick since the mid 90s and we want to thank Dave Thomas foundation for adoption because they are the primary funder of this program and have been for for a long time so we really appreciate their support so this webinar is is somewhat generic because we have a national audience but you are welcome to ask any questions that you have if you look on this you'll have a place where you can ask questions and Becky who helps with this program may answer your questions directly we will also have a couple of times where I'll ask if there are any questions and live at certain breaks during the webinar and Becky laughs um especially if there's something that might apply to a bigger group and we'll address them at that time I also took some notes from the registration so that I can try and hit on some of the questions that people had pre asked as we go through the webinar but remember this is going to it's primarily us I don't think they're any Canadians registered and so this is a little more generic than if I was just doing a training for your specific state where I'd go into a lot of the details for your state and you're all muted so you can't talk if which is good otherwise get a little loud and it's like whose phone is on so we won't have that issue so any questions you asked are gonna be down on a little dialog box so today we're going to cover these issues there's special needs definition title 4e eligibility benefits what what comes with adoption assistance negotiation in some states it's not a real big issue in other states it can be a real challenge renegotiation what happens with interstate adoptions or if you move windows adoption assistance or subsidy and Social Security and how that interacts with adoption sub see how other welfare programs interacts with adoption subsidy or adoption assistance and then college assistance if you want to look at your state specific information this is the website for it it's on our website under adoption assistance and then you can click on your specific state to find out the specific details about how your state program works so the first thing we're going to start with is what is adoption subsidy and it's a program to help make possible the adoption of children with special needs and it typically includes a financial benefit and that's going to be a monthly payment and that could be called maintenance per diem you know stipend people use all different terms for it but it's that that monthly payment and then typically also the medical coverage through Medicaid there may be some other services provided that's going to vary from state to state I will call this usually adoption assistance or adoption subsea they are the same thing if there's anybody on from Washington State we're talking about adoption support and for those folks in California we're talking about aap everybody uses their own lingo and that should cover pretty much everybody when I talk about title 4e and that's a Roman numeral because you know government loves Roman numerals that means that there are federal dollars and state dollars and then in in quite a few states but not nearly the majority of states there can be County dollars when it's non 4e it's going to be state only and then in some of those states that have County dollars they'll be county and state funds but there will be no federal reimbursement and we're gonna cover how children are eligible for that but when I talk about 4e I'm talking about a certain funding source for adoption assistance and it does have it does makes a difference in a number of ways so for special needs usually when people hear the term special needs in the general world they're thinking about a person with disability you know a couple years ago we had our conference in Long Beach California and at the time the special olympics were going on just nearby and so when people hear special needs were thinking about an individual with a disability but in child welfare it also means especially in adoption and adoption assistance it also means children who are hard to place and there's for the 4e part there is three parts to the special needs definition and one is set at the state level so we're going to do the federal part first so the first part for the federal definition and special needs is the child cannot and should not return home and this is a judicial determination that is made in the months the child is removed from the family so this is for kids in the public foster care system when that child is removed from the birth family there's a judicial determination made that the child cannot should not return home generally this is pretty boilerplate language there isn't a real issue with this but I have heard and almost over 20 years I've heard a couple cases where this wasn't done right and it did make the children ineligible for the federal funding did not disqualify them for the state funding but this is something that would happen before for the for the families for the parents out there before you have the child in your home so this isn't something you have any impact over the second one is that their reasonable efforts to place the child without adoption assistance and there are exceptions to that when it's contrary to the best interests of the child including placing the children and or keeping the children with the foster parents they have bonded with or placement with chil relatives so you might run in a situation where the state asks or a county or a worker asks you know can you adopt this child without adoption assistance and as soon as you answer no and in some families do get a little worried about this question but as soon as you answer the question no than if the child is eligible they should start talking about what what the adoption assistance will look like for this child or children you know if if they say this I know in the past what an advantage of being around for a long time I know in the past there was some interpretations that some jurisdictions had where if I was like the number one choice for a child who wasn't being adopted by foster fit by the foster family or relatives you know they did a staffing the child was photo listed and I was the number one choice and I said I need adoption assistance they might go to the second choice but the the feds have very clearly said that's not what the intention is of the statutory language that as soon as I say I need it they need to move forward with talking about what adoption assistance is if you ever suspect something like this is happening take notes I'm more than happy to talk with you I don't know how easy it would be to prove that they were trying to what they call shop around for a family they'll take the child without adoption assistance but I don't I honestly really don't think anybody is doing that these days the last part is the state definition of special needs and this is who is considered hard-to-place and there's a laundry list in federal statute of race age ethnic background sibling status disabilities that make it hard to place a child and they let the state's decide who that is and if you're looking at your state profile that's going to show up in question one and that's that webpage again so the state definition of special needs is this is sort of the generic what what states do I'm your state may not include all of these and I'll try and highlight some different things that a few states do so everybody includes children with disabilities so a child who has a certain documented physical mental or emotional issues the key thing with disabilities is that it's got to be documented I mean we're talking about government and government is about paperwork and the states they get audited by the feds and they have to show that they're you know providing this assistance based on their policies and statutes and regulations that they have in place so they need something documented I know you know I know there are a lot of experienced parents out there that can recognize issues before any doctor has ever diagnosed a child with it but that's not going to be good enough to qualify this way so you need a proper documentation from a proper professional to to qualify for the child apalla Phi with disabilities so that that's pretty clear-cut people generally have no issue with that but let's talk about the hard-to-place categories so the first one is age Minnesota Georgia and Massachusetts do not have age as a criteria although Georgia has length and care as a criteria but the age one for all the rest of the states 47 states and the District of Columbia it's going to vary depending on the state it's as low as age one and older in Illinois to as high as age 12 and older in Kansas a child that meets the age criteria will qualify because they're this month there's old the next one and less states are using race as a criteria but race or ethnic background can be another criteria and it's going to depend on what the state determines for their state and some of these are probably a little outdated because change doesn't happen often so the race may be only for certain minorities in some states that may specify children of African American or black heritage or a state may say that it's a barrier to adoption which is more likely to be African American or Hispanic Latino children some states have age an age component with it so they may say all kids aged six and older but children of minority background aged three and older so it's all going to depend on the specific state in what they say and then there's quite a few states that rate race is not a component at all as hard-to-place sibling status it's going to be anywhere from a sibling group of two to four it's going to depend on your state and some states may require that one of the sibling have another special needs I know in the past I'm not sure currently but I know in the past like a state may say a sibling group of two where one child meets one of the other criteria like race or age or disability or sibling group for three without any extra criteria I know that's been the case in a few states so that's what that first bullet point means thankfully there's a lot of states or not there's a few states that have really recognized an issue that happens in child welfare and they include not just siblings being adopted together but to join a sibling array adopted by the family sometimes a birth parent may have another child after the children have been removed termination parental rights have happened and the child or children have been adopted by a family you know generally they want to keep siblings together so let's say that birth parent has another child and the child is going to be removed adding that child to the family we'll qualify because they're joining a sibling which is really important because sometimes that family may be financially you know in a really tight situation and could take another child with support but may not be able to add one more mouth into the family without that support so we strongly encourage you know states that don't have this already to add the to join a sibling our adopted by the family I don't think it is going to have touch a lot of kids but in those situations it will be so much easier for everybody the next one is high risk so there's a quite a few states including Minnesota where we are for the Iowa folks they call it future needs it can be called deferred dormant high-risk but generally what it is is a situation where usually the child's younger and they are either not showing enough issues or no one wants to make a diagnosis because the child so young it's hard to make a diagnosis and what will happen is the state can enter into a $0 it's usually zero dollar agreement and often will come with Medicaid although sometimes it has to be requested and in some cases it won't it depends on the state but it provides a safety net to the family in case problems arise later and often states will have to document these risk factors whether it's known or suspected prenatal exposure to drugs or alcohol maybe a diagnosis of a mental illness with a birth parent that could be hereditary a positive tox screen at birth you know these are things that states generally have to document for their files but it's it's a great safety net and we also strongly encourage states to have these although some states utilize these a little heavier than others which were not necessarily family fan of as an advocacy group and that webinar is going to be in January so there's there's the high-risk there are other weird ones or I shouldn't say we are there other uncommon ones where if the child's been out of the home or been with the maybe the foster family for more than a year that can qualify a child if it's contrary to the best interest for the child to move somewhere else it's really going to depend on the state but there are some states that have some pretty unique special needs criteria beyond these very common ones I just listed so I'm gonna go on to the next slide so I'm gonna talk a little bit about title 4e versus state only I'm gonna go in in the next couple of slides how kids are 4e eligible and then cover a little more about the differences and then we'll take a little break for questions so if you're having questions already to ask you know start getting those to Becky so that when we take that first break she can connect them so title 4e is title for Part II of the Social Security Act and that's where the federal dollars flow from and the amount varies from state to state there's a calculation that's done every year and the you know the the there's data collected and percentages calculated it never is lower than 50% and then as high as maybe 75 percent there's a few states that I think are over 70 percent but when kids are title 4e eligible the state is getting reimbursed that much money for what they pay out in adoption assistance and as we said earlier there might be County dollars too so the the feds are matching and paying a percentage based on the total amount paid out from state and/or county dollars and reimbursing that percentage when it state only or non 4e every sub C dollars paid by the state and/or counties one question I get every now and again and it's always it's hard to get the question is someone will say well I get adoption sub few in the state of Minnesota now how do I apply for this federal one and you're always the states are always the ones that are administering this there isn't a second subsidy check that families can go after it's either a state-funded non 4e adoption assistance agreement or a federal one a 4e adoption assistance agreement that the state and/or county is paying and that's that's what it is there's not a there's not a second agency that is going to provide additional financial support through adoption assistance so how are kids eligible for title 4e adoption assistance all so through October or September 30th of 2009 there are only four ways for kids to be eligible the first one is the foster child received title for e foster care that covers both the minor parent and infant at the time the adoption petition is filed so if I've got a foster daughter she gets pregnant has a baby and the title for foster care covers both her and the baby that will make the baby for e eligible for adoption assistance doesn't come up very often I have to always look it up but that's that's one route the next one is the child received title for e adoption sub C in a previous adoptive placement generally there are a few states that have other policies in place but generally when an adoptive adoption dissolves what people might call rehoming or if the adoptive parent or parents died the adoption assistance is going to end and in that case if a child is going to get adoption assistance they're going to have to you know after that situation they're going to have to be adopted by someone else in these situations a family does not have to have the child reenter the foster care system they can do a private adoption if that's what they do though that new adoptive family has to apply and get the adoption assistance in agreement you know agreement in place prior to finalizing if it happens to be an interstate adoption let's say I adopt kid Minnesota I pass away and I have my cousin down in Florida is gonna adopt the child in title 4e child never comes back in a foster care system she would actually apply with the state of Florida for that and I I would strongly encourage people if they're doing any planning for the future or what happens to put our information of if you get have a child with adoption assistance put our information in there so that if something were to happen they know that they could talk to a resource that could help them navigate the system because you know generally when things like that happen it's not an easy time if it's if it's death I mean dissolutions isn't easy either but having someone out there that can help navigate the the process is always helpful still there's that one the next one is the child is eligible for SSI so SSI is a means-tested program they look at family income when the child is in the public foster care system they shouldn't be looking at family income or the birth parents probably don't how much I mean income and it's solely based on the child's disability once the child is adopted and we'll cover this more in a slide later they'll look at the adoptive parents income and then there's an issue of interaction with title 4e adoption assistance and SSI and we'll cover that later but SSI is another way for children to be eligible for a title 4e adoption assistance and the last one this is the way that most kids are eligible for title 4e foster care and it also carries on into adoption assistance so the birth parents were AFDC eligible and the two big issues with this is the first there I mean the biggest issue is they're using 1996 income guidelines so they're using guidelines from 22 years ago and we all know that everything's gone up in the last 22 years but these income guidelines haven't so it was harder to you know for families or for states to document those plus you know the states are having to spend a lot of money to document this to get that federal reimbursement for a program that doesn't even exist anymore the other big issue that we have an ack-ack and our solution that we proposed in the early 90s which is not what Congress passed back in 2008 was that they're looking at the birth parents income in the month of removal but we advocated that they do AFDC return redetermination after TPR which would make almost every kid title 4e eligible that's not what Congress went with but that's that's how it works these days so when Congress passes fostering connections law back in 2008 that started taking effect on October 1st 2009 they didn't wipe the slate clean they just added to the list so those previous four on the last slide still exist but now children who have been in foster care for 60 consecutive months they're also going to be title 4e eligible now that's that was a bigger deal back in 2009 right now not so much because 13 October 1st of 2016 children aged 2 and older are eligible for 4e funding because they're applicable children that's also applicable children's for the 60 consecutive months what happened is starting October 1st 2009 it was children aged 16 or older by September 30th of the next year and then every year that we passed in time they dropped that age down to by 2 years until we got to age 2 in 2016 and then last year in 2017 October 1st through December 31st it was all children well were eligible but with the passage this past February of the families first act reverted to age 2 or older starting on January 1st of this year this will still hit almost all the children I don't think it will really impact many children the the roll back but we don't have data to know for certain so Dan oh sorry everybody we're a little technical difficulty I apologize for that alright so I'm not sure where we dropped off but just real quick that's it siblings been adopted if one of them meets the 4e criteria through age or length and care that can piggyback the other child on obviously at this point with kids aged over to two years of age or older aren't going to be we don't the 60 consecutive months is sort of a non-factor at this point in time so why does title 4e matter to folks the first is it saves the state money okay at least half the sub C dollars are reimbursed by the federal government and I don't know of any state that couldn't you know save some of their budget money so it's good for the state to have the kids be 4e eligible and you know sometimes I get people calling and they're like well the state's getting all this money and they just don't want to share it with us as the family and it's like this there's 4e dollars just want to be really clear if the state pays $100 a month and the reimbursement rate is 50% they're gonna give $50 back if they pay $1,000 a month to the child they're gonna get five hundred back it's all a straight percentage there isn't it's not a block grant there isn't it they're getting a certain check chunk of money and they're gonna get it they get to keep more of it for their own budget that's not how this program works you know so you know get rid of that pot I'll really head because that's just not how it how it works some other things that's beneficial about title 4e the state of Ohio and Louisiana will means-test family that means they look at their family income if the child is not 4e funded and the child may not be eligible I don't know if anybody's I'm from Louisiana or someone's listening that's recorded Louisiana does have an exception to the policy and if it it so it can be there can be an exception to that I know on the pre questions we had there was a family in Pennsylvania worried if they make too much if the child won't be eligible and that's not how this works it may be a factor when it comes to negotiation but it will not disqualify the child I mean technically Bill Gates could adopt a child from foster care and if the kids for we eligible the state can't just say you're Bill Gates you make too much money you're not going to get adoption assistance so obviously I don't think he would actually take it but it's just giving you an extreme example the other really big one is and we'll also talk about interstate adoptions too because the the Medicaid can be an issue in the interstate adoptions but there are some states that will not provide Medicaid to non 4e children unless they have a disability that warrants Medicaid so let's say I adopt twin 1 year olds that are pretty healthy but because they're twins that's a sibling group of 2 and let's say the state has a sibling group of 2 as a qualifier they're going to qualify for adoption assistance but they weren't fully eligible by under the old measures and they're not applicable children based on age if they if they're healthy they wouldn't end up getting the Medicaid in in some states it all depends on the state if they're title 4e they will get medicaid no matter what state they live in so this is the time to break for the first set of questions if there are any questions and once again sorry about the technical difficulties on our end so if a child qualifies for a title 4e does that raise can that raise the amount the state will pay in adoption assistance that's an excellent question I would say no generally the states are looking and they have a pretty set structure and it's the same for for non for e the only place I could see that being maybe a factor is a couple of the states where there's a County share and the rates can vary from County to County and the states negotiate down from what the foster care rate is so I would think overall the only place I might see that probably would be maybe some counties in Ohio and or Colorado I don't think I mean technically New York or Pennsylvania that might happen but I generally haven't heard of it but Ohio and Colorado the only two places I think that would be likely to ever happen okay and if you receive state subsidy are you required to live in the state providing the subsidy no and what if you move for the child is 18 we'll cover that on the slides about interstate adoption okay so I will get to that okay and then you'll address whether the insurance Medicaid travels with oh your subsidy is so I don't know about okay great that are our questions for now all right sounds good all right so how does adoption subsidy support families right I mean that's the whole purpose of this is to support the families because you know most families can't take in easily like a large sibling group I actually have met three families that adopted sibling groups of seven and most families I know couldn't add seven mouths to their household without some support and and unfortunately a lot of the children in foster care do have some too significant issues or disabilities that are going on and they need help with I mean just any child with adoption you know you're always looking at loss and grief but there may have been some trauma that the child has experienced that they're going to need help to overcome so there's the basic maintenance per diems type in adoption sub C Dobson support aap SAS whatever your state calls it that's going to be for kids who are hard to place or have minor disabilities and then there's the specialized or medically fragile or therapeutic or difficulty of care or level of care special character med that's a high rate and those are the higher than basic rates and child has to have a disability to get those higher rates so with these two things you know if you're doing a foster to adopt you're really looking at the foster care rate is the ceiling on adoption negotiation if your state negotiate adoption assistance there's also some structural issues and I'm going to cover that in the next slide when we talk about negotiation but if you if you you know are fostering a child or a foster children you know you know that you know I could have a sibling group of three and that one child might be doing pretty well have a base grade another child might be you know in a state that has I would say four levels of care or one child might be a level one and month another might be a level three they're getting different levels of supports based on their different levels of needs and and that transfers over generally into adoption assistance Medicaid is I said on the previous slide that automatically comes with kids who receive title 4e adoption assistance with the zero dollar agreements family may have to ask for it but I think in general they will get the Medicaid for the zero dollar ones for the non 4e generally they do unless there are state that doesn't provide it for non for a kids that don't have a documented disability you know showing the need but if they did they'd be more likely getting a monthly payment anyways and then there's the reimbursement of non-recurring adoption expenses and this is up to two thousand dollars but a state based at a lower limit than two thousand dollars and this is an amount per child this is to help with things related to the adoption process to completing the legal adoption so this could be home studies this could be background checks medical records you know medical you know showing that perspective an entrepreneur's fit this could be traveling let's say you know like I love Minneapolis let's say I'm getting matched with a kid that lives in Moorhead and they want me to do some visits before they match that child with me well that's a 240-mile Drive you know I would probably do weekend visits I might drive up there drive back stay overnight at meals things like that could be included in reimbursements an attorney fees that's usually the big one and in a handful of states families always have to get an adoption attorney and those adoption attorneys always cost exactly what's available in which case that money won't be available to help reimburse for travel costs for the situation I just described this will not help let's say I was ready I had my home ready I'm gonna adopt the sibling group of two that's my plan and you know like with anything and in this realm my plan doesn't match reality and fall in love with the sibling group of three well boy I needed another bed and dresser for that third child this doesn't help that because that isn't something required that's required to get that child to live with me but it's not part of the process so it won't help with things like that but like I said overall this really doesn't help in states where families have to get an attorney and they always magically cost that much and yes you might think oh well I'm dropping three kids so they'll the generally those attorneys charge per child although I will say this if if you get an attorney that because you have to I would I would encourage you especially if it's a state where negotiation can be a bit of a challenge that you ask if they if part of that C will help them help you negotiate and if they're familiar with negotiating adoption subsidy because I think that's a pretty reasonable request so we're going to go into negotiation okay so there are some folks out here where like you can almost turn your brain off if you know how your state operates you can turn your brain off if your state really doesn't do much negotiation because they offer what the foster care rate is this first bullet point some states offer the max amount of possible up to the appropriate foster care rate for that child's current needs so what I'm saying here is child's needs haven't changed child is getting this much in foster care we're moving to adopt the child qualifies for adoption assistance the state says hey we're going to still give you the same amount of money a month is that okay the answer is yes because unless the chip child's needs have gone higher there's you're actually at the maximum the child can get so the child can't get more than five they get in foster care for states that say how much you're going to ask for you know you're negotiating they don't automatically out for the full amount my answer is always ask for the maximum asks what the child is getting in foster care and there's a couple reasons behind that first the state is still saving money even if they're paying the same monthly amount to you they don't have a caseworker who's managing that to care case they're saving money on court costs so they're still saving money the other reason is the child needs generally haven't changed so why should the amount of support now one thing that's challenging in that sentence I just said about the child's need to have not change is oftentimes the child's needs have changed sometimes they get better sometimes they get worse so depending on your state's process a lot of states will do a reassessment prior to or around the time the child becomes legally free or you know before finalization to see what the child's current level of need is now you know what I've heard over the years and it doesn't surprise me is sometimes those reassessments end up with the child getting better families don't always feel that way but the families feel the state is doing that and I'm not naming States here but the state they feel the state is doing that to lower the ceiling on the negotiation process but in reality sometimes the children's needs do really get better child may come in from a very traumatic situation and after a good amount of time with a safe and loving and stable home they may have less needs that when they first came into care so I mean that is a real thing that does happen but I do see how states could be maybe working the system to reduce the amount of adoption assistance they're offering also if you think the child's needs have gotten worse I mean some things let's save an older child some things get triggered with adolescents with the hormones flowing those child's needs may have gone worse that gets to this next bullet point document everything and get diagnosis if the child in recent time has more issues that you're seeing and that you're you know behaviors you're dealing with get that in and get a diagnosis that you're having a proper assessment on the child's current level of need I'm really not a fan when states do this but some states or counties have asked for expenses to help in a negotiation process and what I tell families is give them everything that you can think of including your housing cost your your food costs split them up among all the family members or electrical bills car payments you know all those different things those are all part of household families a tribute to that child their portion of what the size of the household is plus all the extra things that you need and there are a couple of places I've seen over time where the the state is trying to say that the adoption subsidies should be based on the out-of-pocket expenses for the special needs of the child which to me as an advocate is it's nonsensical because why because these states have h and sibling groups as a status it's like well if I'm adopting a child it's over your age and they're eligible why are you saying that I have to document out-of-pocket expenses that doesn't make any sense it's just it's a dozen so if you run into those things please give me a call and we can talk about strategies especially you know because different states do things differently hopefully you don't run into these things but for those of you who might know that we're a resource to try and help coach you along to help advocate for your child because really this is what this is about you're advocating for your child to have as many resources so they can do the best that they can I'm gonna highlight two things really quick here about negotiation this is federal law and this is 42 u.s. code 673 a three and I'm just going to go down here which shall take into account or into consideration the circumstance of the adopting parents and the needs of the child being adopted and may be readjusted periodically with the concurrence of the adopting parents which may be specified in the adoption assistance agreement depending upon changes in such circumstances so what I really want to stress here based on what I said on the last slide is it just those needs it doesn't say special don't say our pocket expenses but the special needs of a child just as the needs of the child being adopted and the other thing here is they can't just change the adoption assistance without your concurrence but they do allow you to change it when there are changes in circumstances child or family and we'll cover that as a and two slides no this is federal policy and it says the payments that is agreed upon should combine with the parents resources to cover the ordinary and special needs of the child projected over an extended period of time and should cover anticipated needs example child care so this in federal policy the clearly highlight ordinary needs like food and shelter not just you know that the extraordinary needs for a child with disabilities so I just want to highlight that and what's really interesting is if you ever really push on your state usually they've copied this language even if they're not using it they're sort of ignoring it it often shows up in state language because government is all about copying stuff in trying to have a consistent program for both funding sources you know and they have to follow this from the feds so they include that language so that's negotiating the option subsidy renegotiate adoption subsidy you can request changes at any time typically 16 and increase in the amount of support I mean states would be very happy if you called them up and say we don't need it anymore we need less although if you ever say we don't need it anymore keep at least a $0 so you can keep that medicaid going and it also keeps the case record open in case things change that you can you know get assistance if problems arise later you do not want that case ever to close document the changes what are the new diagnosis did the diagnosis come from a proper professional for crust requests the change in writing creating a paper trail some states require that when you renegotiate it to disability be tied to an unknown problem that was present before the adoption so as an example let's say dr. kid from New York New York has this language and I give the option assistance because the kids lived with me as a foster child for more than a year we have a strong bond it would be country's best as a child to be adopted by someone else because of that bond and I need adoption assistance that's qualifier in New York State so the child qualifies based on that that time with me move down a couple years were in a car accident knock on wood and the child is now paraplegic in a wheelchair that was something that happened not tied to that child when they were in the system so that wouldn't be grounds for asking for an increase in adoption assistance now if that same child we found out later on because they didn't have the facial features but we were able to figure out and we did some tracking and birthmother finally confessed to having used alcohol while pregnant that the child in the house FAS D that definitely is something that existed prior to the adoption and that would be grounds for a higher rate because of the FASD change in family circumstances ground for asking a change in adoption sub here this is gonna be hard and it's going to pen down the area if you're already getting the maximum based on the child's needs I'm your one little states where you really don't have to negotiate change in family circumstances there's nothing more for you to get so it's not going to be a possibility but let's say I adopt a child they're getting this one rate but it's lower than they were getting in foster care because of the negotiation just how am i my you know my state or county deals with things but I'm having to cut back a little bit of hours to you know be home with the child after school because you know after school care isn't really working that changed my family circumstance less income would be ground for me to renegotiate up to what that child could qualify for in foster care so change them family circumstances but that's always going to be a harder request then when it's based on the child's needs change some states do not allow for renegotiation Georgia and Michigan and Texas Texas walk you into the state rate at the time of adoption the other big issue is there can be structural issues and how states are doing things like in Texas the adoption assistance rates are four hundred and 545 those are less than the foster care rates in Minnesota and we're trying to get this fixed children who find permanency before the age of six so if I adopt or do subsidized guardianship for a five-year-old or younger that child will get half of what the foster care rate is for the rest of the time to get adoption assistance and that's a structural problem that we have and that isn't something that renegotiation or neat negotiation will fix those are things that need to be fixed with the advocacy workshop we'll have in January those are things that need to be fixed with how the system is designed so I just want to make sure that people are really clear on that so if a state has a adoption assistance rate structure that's different than the foster care rate structure that can be a challenge that these tools don't fix so I'm gonna do interstate adoption here and then break for questions and then we'll wrap up with the last couple of things so so interstate adoption when it shot when children are in the state foster care system the adoption subsidy comes from the placing state because they are the state that is you know they they have a child in the system they're sort of the legal parent and they're the ones that are fiscally responsible for that child but let's say I'm here in Minnesota and I'm getting matched with a kid from Georgia a Georgia Medicaid card isn't going to do me any good in Minnesota so the Medicaid needs to come from the adoptees state of residence and when children receive non Forry Medicaid it becomes complicated when it's 40 it's not complicated and I want to tell you one thing about the process but when it's non Forry everyone's 4e and non for you still use the same process once on for e there are some different rules so children receiving for a subsidy are statutorily eligible for Medicaid in all states children receiving non for a sub C it depends on the adoptive parents state of residence Cobra ress prosity rules that's fancy word but it's basically what are the rules in the state you live in about non 4e kids getting Medicaid when they have adoption assistance so there are really only seven states that you need to pay any attention to so the bad states and they're not really bad and this does cost money but the states that we would like to to fix because this would solve everything our Illinois Hawaii New Mexico and Nevada in those states they will not provide Medicaid to children adopted from any other state who only receives a non for e adoption subzi so I adopt the kid what's they adopt the kid from Illinois here in Minnesota and the kid gets an on for adoption assistance Minnesota says hey we're Minnesota will give every kid Medicaid who gets non for e adoption assistance from any state that's how we are in Minnesota so not a big problem but I decide I'm tired of Minnesota winters you know II added like an inch or two of snow yesterday I'm tired of Minnesota winters after 47 years and I moved to Nevada and Nevada says well we we don't give Medicaid to two kids from any state who get non 4e adoption assistance so that child will not get Medicaid living in Nevada now if I live you know across the border in California or Arizona not a big problem but in Nevada it won't work now Iowa New York and Pennsylvania they will provide Medicaid to children who receive non Forry adoption assistance from any state except for Illinois Hawaii New Mexico no or Nevada so I'm here in Minnesota I decide I only want to move a little further south because instead of snow I would rather have ice storms so I'm gonna move to Iowa that same kid who got Medicaid in Minnesota with the non for e adoption assistance from Illinois would not get medicaid in Iowa because Iowa says well Illinois won't do it for our kids so we won't do it for Illinois kids will do it for a Minnesota kid but not an Illinois kid those who only state or it's a real issue and those do change over time and in my years working here in the list with Illinois Hawaii New Mexico Nevada Iowa New York used to be on that list DC and New Hampshire used to be on that list so you can always contact me our information actually comes from the Association administrators on the interstate compact and adoption and medical assistance which brings me up to the process issue and as soon as I'm done with this we'll break for questions so on the process thing if you are moving to another state you've already adopted child and you're moving to another state whether you adopt a child from another state or the state that you currently live in when you move to another state you need to notify whatever state's paying you adoption assistance that you're moving first reason is because they need to know where you are I mean it's just they don't really ask a lot they may ask you know are you still caring for the child and you still supporting a child but they aren't really asked for watched not like social security where they're asking you on a month you know on a yearly basis how you're spending the money they're just asking that you're still legally responsible and financially supporting the child but they need to know where to send those affidavits also you need them to process the Medicaid paperwork because if you don't you may create headaches for yourself in your new state it's a lot easier to have the Akama person the interstate compacts on adoption and medical assistance the state administrator send that paperwork to their counterpart in the new state and get it set up that way so you should always reach out to the state and that might be contacting your county or the state office but that should work up the chain and go to the other you know and then get transferred to the other state and like in my example I would contact the state of Illinois - even though I live in Minnesota because that's where the adoption assistance come from so and so that's that any questions Becky we don't have any general questions at this time okay all right so next slide Windows adoption subsidy end normally adoption subsea ends when the child turns 18 and even in states that extended oftentimes that contract that's what the adoption assistance agreement is it's a contract will have an end date of the child's 18th birthday and then it may get renewed there's two reasons to do it this way one is there may be conditions on extending it like the child has a disability that warrants continuation another reason is rules may change I mean if I adopt the three-year-old today what my state does for past 18 may be better or worse 15 years from now so I just want to put that out there hope that doesn't scare anybody who state does a good job of extending it past the age of 18 but you know that's why they're not signing those contracts that way at this point so these are how states may extend it past the age of 18 the most common one is States will continue adoption subsea age of 21 if the child has a disability it warrants continuation of the adoption subsidy and what does that mean I really can't tell you which you'd probably think why am I even listening this guy's webinar but it's very broad language vague language and I think that's a good thing generally you know I've heard one state say you know basically to the point of is you know give me some sort of diagnosis and we can continue it it's going to depend on the state but the broader the language the less restrictive language there is the easier it is for the state to extend it to a broader group of children and and I do know that at one point a legal aid group was looking at this where they were worried it so it wasn't getting it extended for a child that had some disabilities but I don't think that ever became a case so I don't think it's ever actually been sued over now there are some really cool states that provide assistance to children still in school and that's usually with state dollars so the kid the most common thing is it's like child still in high school children you know I turned 18 when I was in a senior in high school that is very normal but we also have a lot of children in child welfare that have had educational interruptions and may be delayed because of that or other issues that they may have and so they may have they may be in high school until they're 18 or 19 you have to see what the state says some say until they graduate or they turn 19 some may even continue it while kids are still in college but there may be conditions on that with fostering connection that law passed in 2008 they allowed States to extend benefits for children adopted at age 16 or 17 or they didn't have to have just a disability they could still be I think working still in school and that includes college and they could get the adoption assistance extended up to 21 but they had to meet one of the criteria was a broader list now is to help encourage adoption of older youth because once you start getting around that age you start and you know what is how are we maximizing resources for the child to give them the best chance in life and we've heard I don't know that this is still an issue but I've heard situations where kids coming into the state of Florida who had their adoption assistance extended past the age of 18 they were getting their adoption assistance and/or their Medicaid in Florida ended at age 18 because in Florida adoption assistance ends at age 18 for all kids I don't know that that's still an issue but that was definitely an issue before adoption assistance can end before the age of 18 if the parents are no longer legally responsible or financially supporting the child families are no longer legally responsible if your parental rights are terminated the child enlist in the military marries or meant is an emancipated minor that's federal language in most states copy that language word-for-word and then the other one is the financially supporting if you're paying for clothes child support obviously food toiletries school supplies things like that financially supporting the child will count sometimes children ranch or foster care or they're in out-of-home placement like a residential treatment facility they can continue to get title 4e adoption assistance the state can't just stop it without your agreement they can ask you to or they more likely are going to refer you to child support which you generally don't want to have happen but that that can happen but if they do that adoption assistance definitely can continue I know Missouri in situations like that I think they have a really great program but I think there require that you voluntarily it's little pressure but they voluntarily ask you to suspend your adoption assistance I'm not exactly sure how it works in Missouri but they have a really good program in Kansas or in Arkansas in Kentucky putting on for a kids when their kids out of the home because it's state dollars they can do their own rules they will suspend the adoption assistance because a child's out of a home because they don't have to follow the federal rules because it's their money Social Security Administration adoption subsidy so I sort of touched on this earlier and we're going to come full circle to it now if a child receives SSI based on the child's disability it's in the adoption subsidy you know that's not right anything I need to change that the SSI is reduced dollar-for-dollar not the adoption subsidy and we'll get that updated in the slides for the techies going to send out so it's the SSI is reduced dollar-for-dollar based on what a family receives in title 4e adoption assistance and that's because it's concurrent receipt of federal benefits which is double dipping SSI is title 16 of the Social Security Act so it's coming out of the same giant pot of money and there's that interaction but what people get a little confused on and I think there was a family that was a approaching retirement age was a little was wondering about things is if you start getting Social Security benefits based on your work record as a parent those do not have a direct interaction or reduction with adoption subsidy benefits so let's say I'm older than I am and I've adopted a child and I'm going to I'm getting adoption assistance for that child but I'm also going to start getting retirement benefits I can get dependent benefits off my work my old age social insurance and that does not impact my adoption subsidy at the same with survivors benefits and disability benefits off of the parent and that's both adoptive and birth parent now the one thing I will say is if you have a signed contract they can't change that contract we covered that earlier in the negotiation they can't change it without your agreement especially those title 4e ones the state of Maryland will reduce it for the non 4e that's something they can do as I just said about Kentucky and out of home placement it's their dollars they can do that I wish they didn't play they can't like if I'm the adoptive parent I start getting these benefits and I get dependent benefits my child and I have a signed contract they can't change it because of that now it could come off the birth parents a birth parent died or birth parents disabled and state knows about that they can say you're going to get this benefit for the child and so let's say it's $300 a month and we're gonna offer you $500 a month but because you're getting this other $300 a month rolling it offer you 200 states are able to take that financial resource that's coming to the child into consideration in offering a lower rate and I don't have any way to challenge that they're not States aren't required to do that but the states are allowed to do that which sounds weird but but that's a reality so that's that if you have questions definitely call me on that so just I think two more slides and then we're done with any final questions so other welfare programs have adopted sub C so as we come close to tax season I want everybody to be very clear adoption subsidy is not taxable incomes in 1974 Revenue Ruling the IRS does not consider adoption subsidy income if your state and I know some there are some adoption professionals out there but if any of you see or hear that the state is issuing 1099 for adoption assistance or foster care payments please call me I will work with the state to fix that or if you're with us if you are in the state government in your state is looking at should we do that I will get you the information to save everybody from a giant headache so a dot IRS does not count adoption sub CEA's income the hard part is people think that that means that no one counts that as income and that is just sadly not true so this is what we know school lunches in food stamps both programs under the USDA a US Department of Agriculture they count a hundred percent of subsidy and family income school lunches they do eligibility eligibility determination once a year but I think during the summer let's say adopt the child during the school year such how can continue to get it the US Department of Agriculture would love for you to stop getting that benefit if you are over income but they have no way to stop that that in their policy they would like you to voluntarily stop that benefit but there's not a way for for families to do it and families generally don't know about that I will say there are some school districts where all children are eligible I think it's because there's enough poverty in the whole school district they don't look at anybody's family and come so all children eligible this doesn't apply to those school districts section 8 housing counts $480 per year per child of the sub C family income so if I'm in section 8 housing and housing is always a challenging one for us because not all housing is funded under section 8 so we sometimes have to figure out what funds that program and ask what does that program include or exclude as income because that's what we're looking at excludable under new income is if you're looking if you're doing any research that's the key term excludable under and income you want to look for excludable and unearned income so I adopt the kid I'm getting five thousand a year an adoption assistance for the kid I only count four hundred eighty of it I adopt two kids I get five thousand each I still only count 960 of it because it's four hundred eighty per year per child of the subsidy counts as family income low income Home Energy Assistance Program a Minnesota that's probably heating assistance in the south probably cooling assistance it's Energy Assistance I don't know the answer um I can help families that there have questions I know a couple of states like the state let's the state agency determine what is included all and excludable income and I think Alaska Alabama and New Hampshire included I didn't like give up because of alphabetics both of what other states people have asked FAFSA Free Application for Federal Student Aid does not count subsidy and family income and that's right in the FAFSA application bankruptcy chapter 7 11 and 13 under I think it's lying 10 under an income maybe is what it says it says specifically do not include benefits paid under the Social Security Act and if it's a title 4e adoption assistance you do not include it if it's non 4e by my reading I'm not a bankruptcy lawyer you do include it so there's another benefit to title 4e college assistance children adopted at age 13 or older from foster care can apply for FAFSA as a independent student so they don't have to put on parental income this is state or nationwide children adopted from foster care after their 16th birthday can be eligible for education and training vouchers now the hard part with this if there's an interstate adoption I don't know the answer to how ETV works let's say I'd opt you know that kid from Illinois and I'm in Minnesota I doubt but a 17 year old I don't know how Illinois ETV will work for a child now residing in Minnesota the people that would be best to ask that question our foster care to success I think it's FC number two success org and then some states have tuition waiver programs the children have to be adopted from the state's foster care system so you know like Florida and Texas have the two oldest programs they're great programs but you know like if I live in Texas with Minnesota kid that kids not eligible for the Texas foster care program or tuition waiver program because it wasn't a Texas foster kid it was a Minnesota foster kid so the children have to be dog from the state foster care system and it's typically for state colleges and university of the state the child was adopted from so go go back to those old two programs and because I've had these calls adopted kids from Texas foster care we're now living in Florida I don't know of anybody that does reciprocity the only state that may work for an outer state school is kids adopted from the connecticut foster care system i don't know any other state that does that the other one I'd highlight is you need to read what the states do because they all have their own unique rules but in Kentucky if you don't live in the state if the kid doesn't live in the state and then goes back for college they will have to pay the out-of-state residents different so let's say the tuition is five thousand for Kentucky residents and eight thousand for out-of-state residents they'd have to pay that three thousand difference I do know that one and I think I've done enough of my brain dump for now so any final questions and you can always contact me at these numbers my direct extension is 15 or email me yes Josh sorry this is going back a little bit but if a child doesn't is adopted from foster care doesn't receive adoption assistance initially but then has developed some needs or disabilities can you go back and get adoption assistance families can do a post finalization request hopefully in this scenario they may have a zero dollar agreement or deferred not all states do that so it may not be a possibility but you definitely can do it it is a harder process and what will happen in those situations is the state will deny the agreement because quarto federal regulations require that the agreement be in place prior to finalization and what then has to happen as the families have to appeal that decision and request administrative fair hearing and make the case sometimes that's a pretty easy process it can be really contentious it depends on the state and the circumstances played but just getting denied for a post finalization request I would always encourage families to appeal it because often times that denial is you know it's just part of the process but it's never going to be a guarantee that it will happen it definitely depends on the circumstances in the family any other question oh sorry I was meeting um when renegotiating what is a maximum amount allowed the current foster care rate or the foster care rate at the time the child was adopted so Georgia Texas in Michigan it probably won't be written ago she ation because they lock them in to the rate the child yes but most states will the renegotiation will be up to the maximum rate the child would qualify for as if they were still in foster care so let's just go back to like a level four system let's say I adopt the kid I get a level one for the child child's needs have been increased they qualify now for a level three my renegotiation could go up to that level three even though they got a level one when they were first adopted but if it's like let's say it's a state where you know the kid was getting eight hundred a month in foster care but we negotiated a five hundred a month and the child's needs changed a little bit family circumstances changes I can but not the child's needs haven't changed enough to qualify for higher than eight hundred a month I could still negotiate renegotiate up to that eight hundred if that's a proper ceiling for the child in states where there's renegotiation so really it depends a lot on the state and in the situation but generally it can be up to what the child would qualify for as if they were still in foster care okay thank you and then for other folks who had very specific questions Josh we'll have those questions and can respond individually or you can contact him at the information he gave you Thank You Becky thanks everybody for surviving our technical technical difficulties thank you all goodbye