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[Music] hey everyone thanks for being here i'm matt bon jovi and i am delighted to be joined today by zara miramulet zara is a senior research scientist at the bay area environmental research institute and nasa ames research center she's also the author of making time on mars a fascinating examination of how the daily work of nasa's 2004 mars rover mission was organized across three sites on two planets today we're going to talk through her experience of working on this rover mission as well as delve into some of the many insights her book provides on how an organization like nasa conducts work literally across worlds throughout the talk you might have some great questions popping into your head and when you do please go ahead and add them to the youtube chat we'll have some time later on for zara to answer some of these but first zara thank you so much for being here thank you matt i'm really excited for this conversation yeah yeah so to start i want to take us back to 2003 at that time nasa was preparing for and awaiting the landing of two rovers which were flying their way to mars they also at the same time were reaching out to you to see if you wanted to come and work with them can you tell us about the type of research that you were doing and how it was that nasa ended up reaching out to you yes so my work with nasa began in 1999 when i was hired to work at nasa ames research center for a project involving delays at the airlines so i did a project at san francisco international airport and it led to a second project uh extending to include another airline or excuse me another airport and when i completed that second study i moved to southern california to start a doctoral program and about a year in i got a phone call from dr roxanna wales who's was the lead ethnographer um at nasa ames research center in human-centered computing and work system design she had along with her team been working already on nasa's mars exploration rovers mission and she was calling to see if i was interested and if i'd be available in about a year's time to join them on the mission so of course yes and hopefully yes uh i did what i could to get ready um in completing um what i was doing in my second year at the doctoral program and then i moved to pasadena california so i could be as close as possible to the jet propulsion laboratory where the mission was being run out of and between um sometime up at nasa ames research center which is in northern california and the site in southern california i became part of the team and worked as an ethnographer on the mission yeah yeah can you tell us about what an ethnographer is and what they do yes absolutely i mean so many are familiar with the concept of culture and ethnography is the study of culture and for some researchers like the work system design researchers and myself we study culture in institutional communities and when we do that we're taking into consideration the ways in which cultural aspects like habits values norms that various activities and tools shape and are shaped by the community and for some of us we do this work as participant observers and this means that you're maintaining a formal role and you are contributing to the community's goals at the same time you retain a critical distance so that you can continually question the cultural aspects that are shaping the work environment that's quite interesting so when you say that you're working towards the organization's goals is that by conducting the research that you're doing and and briefing them on that or how does that work yes so this is part of the i mean it's um it's a challenge but it's it's a known challenge with more experience it becomes you know you you move through with more ease when you are contributing to the organization's goals as in the case of mer the work system design team was specifically asked to study the culture and contribute to technology development to the science operations workflow and and like and then something else so with ethnography you can have a vague area of focus but it's a key element is to retain sort of a non-directed stance what else will you find you have your methods you're going to put them into place and when you've agreed to contribute to an organization's goals you're going to know that at some point they'll need some reflection on some aspects you may have something and you may not if you don't have anything you'll have a rationale for why if you do have something you may give a recommendation or you may need to indicate more time is needed to observe and determine whether this is a pattern that should be addressed or um or one that needs to be put aside and you know another another focus taken right and was this the first time that nasa had brought in an ethnographer to work on one of their missions or have they done that before so i knew that i mean well since then i've seen technical reports that indicate persons did do ethnographic studies for projects at nasa but i don't know of a project a mission before myrrh that ever had ethnographers on it and it's to give a little bit of context that might be that might be interesting um nasa ames research center is in silicon valley and some of the first work ethnographers sort of grew the field in that area and working for tech companies outs leaving those positions some of them went into nasa ames so it was a very specific period of time when there was more than a few ethnographers working at nasa ames and availing themselves to what they could projects that could benefit from their type of research and nasa's mars exploration rover's mission was was one of them it was you know sort of the the the timing of things um that allowed ethnographers to be present and able to propose to do work on the murm mission which still then required a selection process and the principal investigator for the science team selected a team of ethnographers to join um several years prior to the landing of the rovers and when dr roxanna wales contacted me she herself had been already working for at least two years with the team so so this facilitated my entree um such that i wasn't starting like cold as the first time anybody had ever seen an ethnographer at by that point um they still didn't quite understand what ethnography was or why we were there but i wasn't the first one they'd seen so that eased things a bit that's quite nice um yeah and we've talked about the mission that you were working on which was the mars exploration rover or mer mission can you give us a quick overview of what that mission was and what nasa was trying to accomplish with it yes so the murmish end the short short way saying it was scheduled for january for operations january 2004 to april 2004 this was the nominal period and over the course of this time they would continue to search for the evidence that water once existed on the surface of the planet and for life-sustaining elements they would do so using two rovers that were solar powered landing them into specific spots on opposite sides of mars and remotely operating them continuously for 90 days on mars i have a slide just to give a little orientation the image on the left it was very widely circulated it's a rendering of one of the robots by dan moss who made a very nice animation of the journey that the rover took from launch to landing and then roving across mars the right image is one actually taken by opportunity rover which was the second of the two rovers and this is an example uh well it's the rover taking in with the image being taken showing its shadow figure this the slides don't continue so i'll just continue with the description there were two rovers each of them were set to work when sunlight was shining in their location so with two rovers on opposite sides in a day's period always one would be working the science team at jet propulsion laboratory was divided self-divided into two groups each one dedicated to one of the rovers and when the robot you were working with was powered up traversing and following its commands the scientists themselves would be asleep that was their off time when their robot powered down because the sun had gone down that's when that science team would get up and work for their shift until reaching that point in the timeline when they needed to send their commands to the engineers and the rovers that particular robot would be waking up and setting about going to work so this interplanetary work system was two sites on mars plus one building um on earth and in that building there were workspaces set up specifically to host each of the two science teams and of course there were uh there was the matter of infrastructure to support this interplanetary work system yeah yeah can you tell us a bit about that infrastructure because yeah obviously there's uh two sort of different mars time zones going on and and certainly that's got to be a headache right so let's see um i'm taking a big pause here right thank you for showing the slide i used this partly for myself to keep the the visual orientation time would get so complicated it really helped to look at the sites so we had a building to mark that there was a single time zone for the most part at jpl california in pasadena california and on earth we have a day's rotation which is 24 hours mars takes 24 hours and about 39.6 minutes so it's a slower rotation and in order to coordinate work between these two points you actually have to set your clock forward every day by 40 minutes so i have another slide here that gives you just a a very simple breakdown of what that looks like each rover is working when it's at the starts a workday at the same time but the scientists have to change their work day 40 minutes every day forward and when you're working on one rover you have your work day and it ends if you go back to the slide where i'm just for the purpose of simplicity show one building you have your work taking place on one floor your work day ends but you could climb a staircase and be on the other side of mars and suddenly working with scientists who are working with the other rover who they've now shown up for their shift and in this enclosed space uh it very quickly you know you lose track of time and your focus is on what is happening on mars and there's always something to examine something to analyze persons to discuss with so while there were dedicated teams following a particular timeline and single mars time the boundary blurred very quickly and really everybody was working with both rovers as much as possible right and so that's quite interesting so the mission itself each rover would wake up quote unquote at the same time but that time is the is mars time basically and that time shifts uh it relative to earth's time sort of every day by this 39.6 minute increment yes um so it seems then nasa made this choice at some point that we're going to run this mission based on the time that the rovers are seeing which is is mars time as opposed to the time that the actual scientists are seeing which is earth pasadena time what kind of went into that decision what yes things were they thinking so the underneath that mars time is the the basic relationship of working when the sun is up and working when the sun and not working when the sun is down so locally organization wise we would bin this under farm time pre-industrial organizations you work when the sun is up because you have light and though you will have you know human physical energy after the sun is down you don't have that resource to help you see just to put it simply with the rovers being solar powered it wasn't technically necessary that they only work during the day when the sun is up but it would increase the chance of their longevity the nights on mars are very cold and they did have to use resources to keep themselves warm at night so they were using power at night but the idea was to limit their power usage at night maximize their power usage during the day so this creates a rhythm of work that they're following the sunlight when they work and when they don't work so once you have that as the primary time work relationship and you look at so this who's who's working with these robots some humans well we can just have them work according to the passage of the sun on mars at the respective site of the robot that they're working with and you know we we have the tools to do that right we have spreadsheets and watches and digital clocks and so it'll be a fairly you know um simple matter of having people keep up with the changing time in the mission prior to myrrh called pathfinder there had they did use mars time and they used it for a small number a short period of time the fact that it was not any it didn't create any catastrophe it was not a a problematic exercise it wasn't an essential exercise to the mission but it was used and it was non-problematic you had persons from those missed that mission on murr who could in the discussion of whether they should use mars time or not give you know evidence that yes we've used mars time before we used it for a short period of time and it wasn't a problem so with the group's agreement you know it did make sense and and again you know there was no catastrophe on myrrh either so it's not that something terrible happened and said this is why we should study it rather it's something really interesting happened and there's something there to unpack um to understand how that that all happened yeah and was that something that they specifically were having you study or was that something that you had picked up after you got there right it was not something they were having me study um i didn't i had gone on with um with the benefit of having somebody say like the ethnographer who was already there um who knew my experience had the confidence to say she's gonna sarah's gonna come and whatever she sees she sees like not directing me toward anything in particular so in my first few months i found things that were worthwhile to write up as recommendations or observations for others to consider and reflect on whether they had the same interpretations and that something should move forward or not the aspect of time was not on my horizon as an area of issue i received it as other members of the team received it this is the time we're using this is how we keep track of it and i made note of that as i would with anything else okay this is what we're doing this is how we're keeping track of it and in the process of doing research where i have some things that i'm focused on and some things that i'm not even those things that i'm not focused on i'm still keeping track of because you don't know until you do the ongoing analysis like what suddenly emerges as something to take more time to consider and of the many things that came up mars time was just one of them it was astonishing that something so complicated could have been accepted as something so easy um it wasn't one mars time it was two mars times and it wasn't you know a total environment that allowed people to think that you know what we're like we're in a bubble and so we'll never have any um southern california sunlight disrupting our circadian rhythms and uh people are gonna stick to their one rover and they're not gonna leave um or they're going to leave when they're supposed to go get their rest like all these assumptions just went out the window and and somehow people made do and it was you know it was just from smart it was marvelous like it was marveling i marvel over it still yeah yeah yeah because you said earlier that that basically there were two floors in this building and one was where spirit was and one was where opportunity was and on mars they're on opposite ends it's like a 12 hour difference but then a worker a scientist on spirit might just go upstairs or downstairs and and be on the other half of mars and presumably with this being kind of a a pretty unusual experience for these scientists to be working with these rovers they want to to maximize their time so that became a problem then of people just kind of saying i'm going to go 12-hour time difference and and not really care well the i mean the the problem if it was a problem was the problem um labeled as fatigue and and that be that sort of leaves the space of what what a policy is going to manage and goes into what an individual has chosen for themselves while the time schedule the work time schedule was set up for one you know for one science team to work these hours another science team to work another set of hours with the ability to move across the floors you could spend more time on the mission and you would get tired but as long as it didn't prevent you from participating in what you were there to do your tasks it it doesn't qualify as a problem and so in setting up this idea that we're going to run this mission on on mars time what sort of things did nasa put in place to help people kind of navigate that that cognitive difficulty of mapping their own time to mars time so when i think about this i think you know it is worth um it's not a material item but it's discursive so i think that one of the first assists was actually in the discourse they gave advance notice prior to the nominal mission they had human factors persons doing a study on time sleep habits and the study indicated that um it would be beneficial for the work schedule to be such that you would work four days and you would take three days off so their study indicated that this would be the best way to handle mars time transition that that daily mars time will fatigue you will tire you um and rather than five days two days as as normal and we'll we recommend you do four days three days they had a lot of um material circulated with advice on how to deal with mars time um and this attention that was given did alert people ahead of time that did alert people ahead of time that this was something significant to think about now how people individually ingested that or discuss it as a work group is separate from what the organization can plan to do so again first was discourse and then the material items that they put in place the most present item was blackout curtains so the image of the building that i showed you has windows all around it and this is southern california and uh the sun is relentless there so they had blackout curtains that would once rolled down it was a dark space now when you're showing up to work 40 minutes later every day sometimes you're you would be at work you would start work at three o'clock in the afternoon you know eventually you're going to start work at midnight and it would go around the clock when it would come back around to starting work in the middle of the day at that point you could begin seeing some of the disconnect between following the time and disconnecting from the local time because people would start leaving the windows the shades they would pull the shades up a bit and people would other people would put up signs and begin to ask each other individually for you know hey could you help me out and make sure you pull that shade down because people were having their individual you know reactions as one would as any individual has a different set of circadian rhythms and in local environment outside of work they also did a color coding of the floors i have an image of these two it's the first image is of the science team working with the first rover spirit rover which was at gooseb crater and this color coding that i'm referring to is visible in this image with the red chairs and what you there's a little bit of signage in this room that isn't visible but the signage that is repeated on both floors was also color coded so there's these red chairs and then there's some red signs and in on the other floor the science team working with opportunity rover at meridiani planum the chairs are blue and in the far right you can see a little bit of that a drop down sign that is also in blue initially looking at these color differences it seems quite dramatic you know this is so obvious this is a red floor this is a blue floor and it was astonishing how after a certain point these color codes disappeared you still didn't you could at a certain point be confused about what floor you were on regardless of how many chairs you were around and you know more than i mean on many occasions somebody would be asking what floor am i on um and one one interesting thing that came up is that in this image you can see in the far on the far wall there's a photograph of a mosaic or it's a mosaic made of the mars terrain and these weren't intended to populate the mission space on either floor but people wanted them and though it was said that there wasn't a budget for them because it hadn't been planned at the outset they did eventually get printed and they got put up and it was interesting to find that people oriented themselves to their workspace either by saying what what floor am i on or by looking at the image of mars and that would tell them what what was going on in that space more quickly than the color of the chair that's quite fantastic um so then were there also um were there these sort of time uh like a clock basically where you see sort of mars time one mars time to pasadena time or how did people manage that part yes so absent of any large clock i'll go back a little bit i give this description of a meeting in the book where in preparations for the mission somebody asked how will the scientists know what time it is and somebody responding looked at their wrist and pointed and said they're just going to do the time math well whether you take that as an anecdote or a reflection on like a deeply held belief if when you look at the mission space you would see that there were no clocks there was the clock that's standard to a building um but nothing specially designed what there were were software programs that would display mars time and you could pull these programs up on various devices what we would eventually have and i have a slide for this image these mer boards were designed for scientists to display images that they needed a group to be able to look at these motherboards had a had a suite of tools that were all very useful and one of the most useful things they demonstrated themselves for is as a clock as to tell time so each floor had five just in the science working room and in this image you see three of these myrrh boards and all three subgroups have used them to tell time this was not a mandated use of the clocks like they didn't say these are what you're going to this is how you're going to tell time or each group turn your mirror board to time this was as it was happening in situ and what the colored bars indicate are the time zones that they have that they're looking at or that that particular group wants to pay attention to so the first group on the left is looking at mars time at two sites as indicated by the green and the purple and the the white bar would be a possibly the local time and when you move to the middle mer board you see it displaying four time zones two of them on mars two of them on earth and of course the far right is one side on mars and one side on earth so this adds another degree of complexity in that when you encountered a mirror board with mars time on it you didn't know if it was adjusted to the times that you needed to know it's more reflective of the last user or that that work group so you you may need to take a couple of steps in order to you know bring up the time that was important to you at that in that moment right so yeah so certainly from nasa's perspective it's oh these are these are brilliant scientists they can kind of do a little bit of addition or subtraction depending on what they want and and figure it out but but yeah suppose i mean we can see that there is quite a bit of complexity here um even to the point where you you mentioned in your book that uh that people kind of went out in search of mars watches can you tell us a little bit about those yes so so while these murderboards became giant use used for telling time during the mission there was another timepiece that was created prior to the start of the mission and this was at the behest of two jpl engineers who said you know well if time if it's a slower time that we need we'll get watches that run slower so they canvassed the local area they found a jeweler in a in a nearby town who could who said he could make these watches i mean he took a watch and he slowed it down and they sent out this engine this team this cup uh sent out i mean to say it's a marketing sheet is is just to over describe it um it was a it was a slide with six watches on it it showed um the type of watch you could get and the price price was between like 125 and up and for an additional 30 or 50 dollars you could get the face of it would have the face of mars and you know again so to the point that the scientists will figure it out yes i mean people did figure out what you know how to manage this the issue with the watches was that well one they were expensive and two it was very quickly realized that they would stop telling mars time accurately and once they did that you'd have to take it back to the jeweler so this adds a level of you know a task to your workday that's already you know subject to so many different um factors if somebody's watch stopped running according to mars time they might never reset it and it you know became an artifact some a special token from this mission the image that i'm showing here is of a person whose position included overseeing multiple work groups and keeping track of work activities across work groups and what she has for this are in the foreground one watch that shows that is a mars time watch though it doesn't have the mars face on it that's a mars time watch in the foreground the second watch over to the right is earth time at two she's got a dual faced earth time watch the third black strap is not actually a watch but it is a it was a part of a human factor study to keep track of sleep and then the fourth watch at the in the far back is another mars watch that one actually does have a mars face on it so she was keeping track of time at both mars sites and two different sites on earth yeah so so kind of keeping track of all that uh is itself quite complicated but then if you want to be a person who's operating on mars time and then also sort of have a personal life and see your family and go out to eat that becomes extremely difficult each day that you're shifting by 40 minutes what sort of impacts did you see on the individual scientists uh sort of managing this difficulty so i remember the the first thing that the first time it really caught my attention was when people decided when some people decided to not follow the four days on three days off some people use that for the reason that in those three days they would travel not so many backups everybody was not local to pasadena not everybody moved to pasadena and so for those that lived outside of pasadena they would use those three days to travel home and see their family um and then return for their work shift there was temporary housing set up so this was accommodated for again what really struck me was the first time i learned that people weren't going home because those three days became questionable as to do they stay on mars time or do they shift to their families time in order to see their family and if they don't shift to their local family friend time then what's the point in being there because when you go back to that site the garbage truck is showing up and it's the daily time rhythms that are taking place which when you're the only one trying to resist them it becomes more of a burden and so they stopped some people stopped returning to take you stop returning home and in a way that's like taking away part of what was meant to support them in managing mars time but the advantage was of course then that they remained around a group that was that was going through these same time rhythms with them so they could choose to not do the four day three day um they could work as many days as they wanted and in their off days they would still be in the presence of persons who are following mars time yeah so obviously that then kind of becomes quite difficult on you um as a person and also you said earlier we have these factors of fatigue and obviously stress in this high stress environment how did people then start to deal with with these issues was there sort of a formal process at nasa where you you could kind of uh register that you're having difficulties or how did that go about so excuse me as a lot of organizations there is a employee assistance program and there was lots of um material to encourage people to speak about their issues if they were having or and so to that i you know i want to acknowledge that there was that present and that it's not something that i would be able to say i know more as to how many people asked for assistance um one notable item that i i talk more about in the book is inside of nasa we are in a private space you have to have a badge to get in you have to be vetted and even once you're inside um you know people may not speak openly around you until they get to know you it's norm you know what we commonly have in most communities and what was interesting was that though once you were inside the main workspace like the image that i showed you one of the science workspaces this itself became a bit of a public space so in this space there was very few open complaints about time and fatigue if something was said it was said in camaraderie and jest and then quickly passed over it wasn't we're gonna hey really pay attention just we have to stop what's going on and discuss this it was yeah me too and you know ha ha and then in the rooms that were outside of the science workroom either in the offices for the individual subgroups or hallways in the cafeteria at the restaurant down the street you know that's when there's like this sigh of like open complaint but not um not to the degree of this is so awful somebody has to say something it wasn't like a hey let's just keep talking about this and rally around this point we need to go and have this this changed it was a release of steam oh this is really hard oh i missed this event a recounting of how they were experiencing mars time but not in a tone that would demonstrate this was a grave concern and so it was interesting that that wasn't allowed or you know that people found that to be i mean they self-censored in the sense to not talk about that in the public science area now it was all business there i mean sometimes talking is just mission critical talking but there was certainly enough times where it's about analysis or discussion and the space was available for other kinds of comments um and and i found i personally found them to be somewhat innocuous like what's wrong with saying that this is really hard i mean everybody's going through it and their surmounting it so what's i personally didn't see the downside until i looked closer at it to try and understand what was it about this particular group that made this a topic not fitting for the workspace and of course then i go in in the book i go into the culture of nasa the value of astronauts in valor and being a human that can surmount all sorts of obstacles and and you know this is not astronauts working on the murm mission but there are many who wanted to be astronauts and there are many who can you know uphold the sense of importance about astronauts and the qualities of an astronaut and wish to mimic that yeah and and we see this i guess in a lot of sort of organizations especially these sort of high achieving organizations is this idea of uh sort of almost boasting sort of of the the difficulties that you're under sort of oh you know i'm operating on three hours of sleep or or what have you and we're certainly seeing some pushback in these last few years about people really understanding the the long-term effects of lack of sleep and sleep debt and things like that were any of those conversations happening at that time or was it just kind of a let's get through it um so the first part yes right the sense of like i'm demonstrating my high achievement by uh and my ability to be more than human i mean right um i'm able to go without sleep i can go for 14 days without sleep and no one said that um i i mean i i say as a matter of fact that for me um because i didn't want to leave the mission space i wanted to see as much as possible and i too was subject to being shaped by the environment i went from floor to floor for as long as i could and i found that what worked for me was seven days on and one day off and that was for me just a matter of like okay so now i need to see what can i study in these time periods et cetera but i didn't feel superhuman for that i felt this is what works because of my local context it may be in another type of organization but i don't know that nasa's culture would contribute to finding a conflict in people who are expressing this type of ability if you can say that you can go and handle anything you know this is like very very adjacent to failure is not an option right and i i think one place that this gets flipped around is when we think about why we send robots to a planet that humans can't go to because the robots are stronger like materially speaking other than losing power in their batteries we don't expect them to be subject to fatigue and yet on this mission we have this example of how people were subject to fatigue and when they're when they're willing to uphold this value of we don't need sleep there like you kind of you end up kind of glossing over some things that could be super interesting and helpful to think more about if as you've just i mean as you've described like currently there's more of an appreciation for what are the effects of sleep if those are more well considered we'd still want to look at the context in which they're being circulated because there may be like organizational histories or cult you know cultural values particular to the organization or that community society that are going to put people um in an awkward position of saying like well sleep really does matter and then you find that actually well that's now heard by some people as disqualifying you from working on something where we want everyone to say that they can just work all the time what comes to my mind is you know the silicon valley model or the the description of people going into startups and being able to work all night and uh you know even asking about the time work relationship there is is you know it's it's asked sometimes but um when people are recruiting for those kinds of companies i i don't know that in an interview anyone's going to say you know sleep's really important to me so i want to make sure that you understand that before i join yeah and and to what degree because the the sort of nominal mission that you mentioned for murr was this sort of 90 soul period so like right about 90 days do you do you think that played into this factor where people sort of saw it as the short-term sprint as opposed to if someone were coming in and they have a 10-year career ahead of themselves and they're going to have to do it all on mars time do you think that would have made a difference i think that's a really good point yes there was an end time there okay this is going to end well there was two okay so yes this is only for 90 days on mars and every second is sort of is a gift i don't um at any moment the robot that you're working with could just stop you you just don't know no one has ever said or um postured that we know abs with absolute certainty that once we start working on another planet everything's going to go well people are very clear about the fact that we've tested we have simulated conditions and we still won't know so every moment that the robot's there there's this um it's it could be tomorrow could be the last day so even short some 90 days was like yeah so at the most we have to do this for about three months but every day you're on this you're in this temple temporal reality of this could be the last day i get to do this so i'm gonna do it one more day and then the next day is just one more day right yeah yeah it kind of pulls you along as you go yes i don't know yeah that's a good i like to i'd like to think about that what it would be if somebody said you're going to do this for 10 years well if they said to you you could be on mars some people would do it but if if they said that you were going to be 10 years in one of the simulated mars environments like a habitat in hawaii would you would you do that you know yeah yeah i imagine people's calculus would be quite different on those two different questions yeah um yeah so we have a few minutes left so if anyone has any questions please feel free to put them in the chat um but to continue on so there is now a uh another rover that's heading to mars right now the perseverance rover and do you know have there been any insights that that were gathered from the mission uh that are being applied to this new rover mission so i don't know specifically but i can speak like organizationally at nasa one of the ways that knowledge moves in this organization is through the people so you have publications you have technical reports presentations all all of this is material that anybody can well most anybody can access and and still one of the most important vessels so to speak is the person uh on murr we had people who'd worked on previous missions and between myrrh and perseverance which is the mars 2020 mission between these two missions there's been landers orbiters and other robots on mars and you could look across those teams and find people moving through each of them or their students or colleagues but this this movement of persons from myrrh to mars 2020 just based on that i would guess that yes there's going to be carryover on lessons learned and best practices that may never have reached um you know a piece of paper um you know things that people that's part of the culture how it's part of the concept of culture in that the learning takes place through the people so if you have persons coming forward from a previous project who embody some of these ways of doing things it may not have been their interest to write it down and speak about it but they'll continue these practices within the workplace and others benefiting from it or finding refinement of it and doing so allows it to carry forward on the mission so for this time period of only 15 years i wouldn't guess that there is carryover from murr yeah that makes sense um and sort of to wrap us up we're just about out of time um so you as you say you were you were on this nominal mission and you were operating on mars time on this sort of seven days on one day off period were there anything that you found sort of surprising as you were going through that things that affected you or didn't affect you that were surprising well i was surprised by the seven days on one day off i i remember thinking this is going to change my relationship to time and work in ways that i'll only know in the years that come yeah um i mean that's the most memorable at this time so i found myself a more comfortable working in dark rooms with fluorescent lights yeah you know and i had been studying in southern california so that was you know once i went back i was like uh forget the sunlight i need a dark room with fluorescent lights it's not uh not expected at all yeah yeah well i want to thank you again uh for being here with us and and talking us through this um i certainly recommend your book um for anyone who has an interest in mars and mars time and just work study in general um so zara thank you so much for being here with us thank you so much matt and for everyone on the call we look forward to seeing you next time so until then stay safe bye you