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towards the end of the book and I'm quoting you you pose this question if the word pissed is can mean loyalty as well as faith then might one express Paul's famous doctrine as justification by loyalty I have to confess that's a new one on me are you suggesting that the individual's justification before God according to Paul includes some kind of demonstration of loyalty I think part of the problem this is getting technical so forgive us but this word pissed is P is T is which we normally translate as faith as Martin says means loyalty trustworthiness trustfulness the whole range of things and I think in Romans itself we see Paul exploiting those different meanings when he says upfront that this is the gospel about Jesus the Son of David the son of God raised from the dead through whom we have received Grace and Apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the nations that's another Caesar phrase Caesar wanted obedient loyalty thank you very much Jesus is the Lord who wants obedient loyalty the danger with that is if you're asking the question of justification in terms of what do I have to do in order that God will be pleased with me then it sounds as though I have to do something I have to be loyal instead of just believe and that's where we need to pan right back and say nope that's not what we're talking about that is where the sixteenth century and actually wasn't their fault got into a muddle because they were responding to the Middle Ages I've often said Luther and Calvin and the others who are among my great heroes were trying desperately to give biblical answers to late-medieval questions that's much better than giving non biblical answers late medieval questions but let's think about what the first century questions were and they weren't the same questions and that's where the slippage but of course but Thomas Cranmer speaking of this doctrine specifically writes this proposition that we be justified by faith only freely and without works is spoken in order to take away clearly all merit of our works as being insufficient to deserve our justification at God's hand absolutely do you embrace that as an assertion of what Paul's same brace that as an assertion of what had to be said urgently in the middle of the sixteenth century and blessed Cranmer for saying that because that wasn't where he started but he went to the stake for that and associated doctrines but when we pan back and say that's what needed to be said to ward off the 15th century heresies what needs to be said by Paul is that God intends to put the whole world right point one God has dramatically launched and inaugurated this project by raising the crucified Jesus from the dead point to so that the world has in principle been put right and God now through grace through the gospel puts human beings right so that they can be part of his putting right project for the world and being part of that project does not require a demonstration by myself of good works of effort it does it doesn't require it but as Luther himself would say if it doesn't issue in that something is wrong with the initial faith I mean that that's that's quite clear if you if you just I mean some of Luther's early treatises make this extremely clear that faith works through love according to Galatians and love and faith actually and Paul are really quite close they are both about trusting God and living a life shaped by the death of Jesus so this is part of a much larger conversation of course but I think if you start by saying how do I get to heaven do I have to do good works or not wrong question but if you ask that question the answer is no you simply believe and trust God reaches out and you say thank you and believe but if you start by saying articulate to Paul articulates that but the works which Paul rules out on which Cranmer is echoing there as in Galatians 3 as in Romans Galatians 2 as well primarily for Paul these are the works of the law which mark out the Jewish people from their non-jewish neighbors circumcision Sabbath the food laws and going to the temple and so on Paul says don't have to do that anymore that was a good but temporary dispensation you