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michigan transfer agreement info for community college math departments with jack grotman this presentation is sponsored by the innovative teaching and learning committee of amatic a-matic is the american mathematical association of two-year colleges and our core value is building expertise and exhibiting leadership in the teaching and learning of mathematics enhancing personal growth and improving teaching methods and effectiveness as a personally initiated lifelong responsibility and for more information please visit our website at amadic.org and also please note that the views expressed by the presenter are not necessarily the views of a medic and any commercial products mentioned by the presenters are not endorsed by a medic so now we're going to switch to the presenter slides so let me bring those up and then i'll turn it over to jack so if you could please let jack know in the chat room that you were here and um i'll turn over to jack now thank you well thank you everybody for setting up today i hope you can hear me decently if you lose me during the webinars i'll pop that note in the comment and i'll try to fix it somehow oh i want to share some information i hope to have a lot of time for questions and answers as we go through this time together so if you have questions just get them in there and we'll take care of them get you the best information we can so this is a brief outline of what i thought we could go through today quickly was the mta talk about what the gen ed requirements are how it's being implemented and more time on the math pathways and a couple of questions about intermediate algebra and i've got a chart showing the courses normally in each pathway so hopefully this outline matches somewhat with what you thought you were getting into with this webinar if not we can adjust later on to cope with things that you want to have covered so let's get started but if you don't know the mta is a michigan thing for transfer between community colleges and universities well the state legislature includes some language about this and budget laws the macro agreement helped with the same goal but was not quite as uniformly used as we would like so mt has a attempt to fix that it was developed by a task force representing universities and community colleges with some membership from the legislature and state offices a little bit more about that so the this general education part if you're from michigan you know the macro agreement had some categories and these will look a little bit familiar but with some critical differences in case of mathematics we used to be lumped in with the science you could take two science courses or a science and math combination currently with mta they will have to take a math course so that's the focus of our time together is what does that mean for us in michigan so we'll talk about how that's being described in a minute the implementation of mta is being done by the macro group which is community college communities excuse me collegiate registrar and admissions officers those acronyms always get me future budgets will have some performance funding based on the mta they'll let that's unclear exactly how that's going to work there's a web address on this screen where you can get all the documentation you'd ever want for the mta they've got the math task force posted there that we'll be using in this session as well as some other documents on how this can be going to be implemented some of the material i've got in the webinar came from that site so i recommend you go there for questions you're going to have questions today make sure you pop them in there so we can get those addressed the mta math requirements listed in terms of pathways which is a little confusing since there's one course required it's not a pathway that's required the word pathway is designed to emphasize that different students should be thinking about different courses so these are the pathways college algebra statistics or quantitative reasoning the mta also says any more advanced course in these areas would also be accepted and in the case of college algebra we had to specifically say that calculus was included in that pathway even though it's not a college algebra thing it's part of the same sequence so on the bottom of this it talks about oh math course should be true this entry level college course if they have to demonstrate massive algebra 1 or equivalent content prior to enrollment and let's create a lower confusion related to intermediate algebra that we'll clarify later on so these are the three basic pathways and we'll talk about what each one means and again i'm hoping that we have a lot of time to do with any questions you have to clarify things you want to make sure we get your needs met so it the college algebra pathway says specifically it must be beyond interview algebra the task force that met this past year describes some topics that should be in such a course and that task force report is posted at that macro website i don't want to try to go through all those but people thought this was the typical content of a college algebra class it's not necessarily the same as pre-calculus but it could be we reference the ma crafting guidelines for college algebra as a way to try to encourage us to get some uniformity in the state of what college algebra meant of course other courses in the calculus path also count in this pathway the word pathway is there because we want students to be thinking about this pathway if they're in a stem program or a related field not for people to say a social science they should be going someplace else so i wonder if people have questions right now this college algebra pathway or this is making sense so your friend is typing something hopefully my answer will help is that a long question for others take care of the time okay there we are oh it varies on michigan too i think some of us include exponentials and logs in in the algebra michigan it has a usual variety we don't have a state system to dictate the content of that class so there's quite a bit of variety we've had in mac michigan we have the mismatic committee on algebra that tried to set some guidelines but did not achieve a lot of success so hope that helps so let's go on well any other questions that come up going on with it what goals what's beyond even your algebra that's a good question um this the michigan system depends on a lot of collaboration between institutions transfer is the biggest single thing if of course transfers is college algebra it's college algebra or whatever the title is so it's the main way we know what's beyond intermittent algebra if it transfers to something higher the statistics pathway is essentially one course after beginning algebra alpha one or comparable course so some of us in michigan are doing a mathematical literacy course that would qualify is a prerequisite to such a stat class students need to apply algebra skills in this pathway and in the documentation you'll see that it's supposed to be taught by math faculty or cross-listed with the math department the thought here is people did not want a stat class taught by business faculty to be used as this gen ed requirement and we specifically listed inferential statistics here so that a course that did just descriptive would not qualify if you're familiar with us the gays assessment standards is the guidelines for introductory statistics it's not a content standard so much as assessments so again if you have questions go ahead and type them in the statistics pathways had not been such a big thing in michigan as other parts of the country so brit's asking about college algebra i'm just kidding college is acquiring basic health before statistics not so much there's some of each there's a few universities that do some that don't here at lansing community college we've got one of each we have an intro stack class after a basic algebra class and another one that would follow college algebra for different purposes i noticed steve was typing steve is doing a lot of work in statistics well people asking about inferential is including hypothesis testing a brief answer yes any other questions about statistics okay so let's come on we can always come back to any of these pathways those questions later on the third pathway is called quantitative reasoning and this has the same prerequisites possibly is the statistics and again students have to apply algebra skills the thought here is this is a course that comes from multiple math domains the typical one blends algebra statistics and something some other things like you see listed here there's a lack of uniformity in this course both in the state and across the country so we listed the guidelines from the kentucky general education program as a way to kind of benchmark this course to me it's the least defined of the three is also the one that i think is the most applicable to a typical student in their general education requirements this is the one that i see preparing students for basic science classes for example more than the statistics one any questions about this qr pathway we'll see we've got a question there or something oh in terms of using this qr course is a prerequisite to other courses it hasn't been talked about it's it's kind of a separate issue from the mta work on gen ed let's wait another minute here and then we'll go on i don't haven't heard too much about people retrofitting their finite courses so much as retrofitting other courses like one for qr people are talking about adjusting it to meet these requirements let's go on we can come back to any of these we need to in the math task force that met this last year we specifically said that intermediate algebra would not count for gen ed which is a change in michigan well so in reality has no role in the mta itself mta does not deal with institutional requirements for programs so a college could still use any course they want for an associate's degree including interviewing algebra that would not be part of the mta the intent is to get a college-level math course required for general education instead of intermediate algebra michigan is unique in this situation because emily algebra in most states is defined to be remedial or developmental and therefore not eligible for our program michigan leaves the course in a limbo state where it can be used so in the past it's been used in a number of places and that's going to be phasing out any questions about this parts intermediate algebra okay so one thing i thought i could do is share a typical list of courses in each pathway this is partially a reflection of what we did here at lansing when we went through this review the partially not the first column the college algebra pathway is exactly what we submitted and approved for our empty math requirements the second one is what we have we've got those two courses with different heroes in the qr pathway we only have the first course and one of the things that is a concern is our math parliamentary teachers was judged not to be qualifying in the qr pathway which means students that are going to get a bs va in elementary teaching will need to take another math course besides our math elementary teachers whether to call josbert statistics or qr that's not a good outcome for me but just what's happening here but other colleges you might use that math for elementary teachers as a qr course so you may have questions about this chart maybe the most important thing that we're doing today go ahead and type those questions in even if we have multiples we'll get to them well lewis is that louis is asking about our math for elementary teachers course like many michigan colleges we have two and my hope was that the combination would be judged strong enough for the qr course it's because the qr standards involve a comparison of modeling um doesn't say statistics but it's that kind of thinking and our courses don't do that it also doesn't involve much algebra that was the main thing that went wrong here so friday's asking about how difficult is to switch from one path to the other clearly for students going from statistics to qr there's not much of a problem because they have this the same prerequisite going from one of those to the college algebra could involve an extra course depending on the student so and then i i wonder too but there are those descriptions of what should be in our qr course that is in the math task force report and the college judge that i did not meet those requirements enough even though it's beyond beginning algebra this is a little different for us because we're used to courses all courses after a certain level being qualifying but that's not the way that the mta is working yeah john i don't know as much about the new test i've heard about it but don't know as much about it as you do so jan is asking who had judged oh this is something that michigan does did with macros doing the mta the original review is internal within each college that result is sent sent to macro and reported on your website and there's no further review of or vetting of that result unless problems come up so if your college judges mathematics is a qr course that's what will happen yeah so see i trust your judgment on that on the elementary teachers course is of course that i don't happen to teach see the pre-test you're talking about is the elementary basic skills tests that teachers potential teachers have to take okay two so johnny asking about a geometry course geometry is not listed separately you'd have to fit that into a qr situation it's certainly not a college algebra certainly not statistics so the only pathway left is qr so you'd have to have a geometry course that included enough other material to be qualifying certainly a straightforward geometry course would not qualify unless it's part of the college algebra pathway i don't think we offer such a thing in michigan but that's what i said lois that the review is definitely being done internally with this within each institution if your institution judges it strong enough to qualify for the qr pathway and it transfers to the accepting university they will accept it as i understand it for the qr for it would be for the math requirement the mta will not stamp each one as being a qr statistics or college algebra pathway the students will just get a mta stamp if there is an issue with a transfer that i want to talk about i want to move to that sliding and i'll come back to this one the last slide is other points when the mta processes started the intent was to have a block transfer of general education credits that started credits with macro the macro agreement we had many provisos universities would accept macro for general education except for three areas and require students to do their version of general education in those three areas mta was supposed to avoid that second technical so mta is supposed to avoid the provisos however as the macro group is implementing it they're still allowing universities to not accept it if they don't have an equivalent course so in the case of qr several michigan universities don't have a qr course so a student uses a qr here at lcc and transfers to michigan state it will not be counting for mta it's for them as they transfer to me that's that's a confusing thing and i hope that gets adjusted in the long term so that's part of what we're getting into with the qr thing and for elementary teachers this this page has some other information too that probably doesn't affect math as much as overall mta i'm going to click back to the other side and we can go back here if you have a question on it so what other questions do you have on these pathways one thing i'll mention while jan is typing the math task force that developed these final recommendations was a blend of community college faculty from mitch manning our affiliate and the maa state affiliate michigan maa along with a few other folks who met a few times to develop the requirements so what other questions do you have i don't have a good answer for your question jan i've tried to get more definitive things from macro as they implement this if they are leaving a lot up to the receiving institution in terms of accepting credit their current approach is if their credit is not accepted like a math course except as credit it would not be accepted there to meet general education i think this will be a problem but universities that currently have a qr course like eastern michigan for example they will not have any problem students going to a university that does not have anything like this who have difficulty the other difficulty i'm aware of is in statistics students can use an intro stack class that has the beginning algebra prequisite for mta but the receiving institution may judge that course not appropriate for transfer which kind of blocks those students from counting it at that institution so what other questions do we have about pathways or concerns in a way jan i agree with you it's a i was hoping for something better i do think this is an improvement for students compared to macro hopefully we don't support the idea of having a separate math requirement suffer from science the issues here will do with universities that don't have a qr course or won't accept intros that class with a lower prerequisite than they've had steve you're i'm confused by your question and who teaches the qr and ca pathways the empty task force on math did not have anything about who's teaching outside of sixties being taught by math faculty yeah that's that's the only part i'm aware of there's not a similar statement for college algebra or qr the the presumption there is those are only taught by math departments so mark's question there is basically saying the mta still has provisos it doesn't avoid the mta overall it just creates a black hole the students can walk into going to certain institutions so the macro plan for implementing this says students need to talk to advisors about whether the receiving institution will accept that particular course at transfer and that part is exactly like has been the case with the macro agreement in the past my own hope is that you know over time the mta will become more a block transfer than it is right now right now it's supposed to be block transfer but it's not working out totally that way the math elementary teachers being taught by t folks is mostly i think a university scenario haven't seen too many community colleges where the teacher's ed course is taught by te faculty we usually don't have that kind of thing going on well mark is asking about the name this is one of my concerns we've got a lot of confusion about what qr is and all inconsistency in names in the listing here you see liberal arts math the historical course of that name is not a qr course it's a survey and enjoyment of math for people that don't need to do any math at all and that's not actually a qr course some of them those courses have been updated so they are i would prefer them to be called quantitative reasoning and so steve your comments here makes me think that maybe the math for elementary teachers course should be conceived of as a qr course in the first place as a methods course what other questions or concerns do we have as you can tell you're saying that i don't have all the answers some of these things are just as confused what other questions or concerns do we have so mark your question about qr being a prerequisite for a stem pathway that's certainly not the intent the intent that they be alternatives is very separate from each other a given student could make a transition from one to the other but taking a course or two in in between if they're considered as being separate things now trigonometry is dealt with differently at different institutions in michigan yet some of our colleges trigonometry is part of a college algebra sequence and there wouldn't be a separate course that is only trigonometry but that would be considered as a college algebra pathway course in most situations especially if you have like a college algebra prerequisite for your tree course what other questions concerns do we have it looks like jerry was starting to type something i can't see if he's still doing it or not you mark you're talking about intermediate algebra in the recent past the course has been perhaps distracted originally it was just for students going on to college algebra or precalculus has been used by a lot of students it's their terminal maths class i think that's likely to shift and i think that's good news here at lansing we've got well over half our students who take interview algebra in that situation is the last math course they're going to take which makes it really difficult to do a good job preparing the for the stem fields the stem pathway i think it's going to make the algebra course more focused on it a purpose in life i think that's a good thing so steve you're talking about having a new course for people that are going on to more math but keeping the old intermediate algebra course for those who don't need anything else it's a little different than we're doing here at lansing we're hoping that more students take our qr course and statistics course and not take our intermediate algebra unless they need to go on to the college algebra pathway well this falls in the category john mentioned start about commercial materials coincidentally we're using the bennett and breaks book we've looked at the sobecki book the very similar textbooks there are a couple other decent choices too oh yes i can see why you do that steve oh about performance funding i'll go back there here this is all very vague the only thing that's been there so far is a statement anticipating that future budgets will have performance funding based on how universities especially accept the mta i'm not sure how it's going to be judged what the formulas would look like or anything i just know it's it's been a statement in the legislation so far that this is coming that's about all i know that's all anybody knows right now the legislature still got to work through what they really meant by that this is it baitynok full college level qr course this sounds like what we call our mathematical literacy course here at lcc i know a couple other colleges are doing it also there's similar things going on with the data centers new math ways project they have a course called foundations of mathematical reasoning which is the same kind of content as a math lit course that we do i think the answer is yes i think there are other people doing that and that of course the thing is is a practice for intro stat the qr course the liberal arts math course and similar things yes that's interesting might want to hear more about that oh yeah jackson's got a history of working on the stat pathway in particular with the modified algebra course that feeds into the statistics course it's an alternative to what we're doing with ours our mathlete course so one of the questions i've heard other places is the qr pathway there's this course called mathematical literacy and the people have asked whether the mathematic course would qualify and the answer there is definitely not so god's talking about one of these mathlete courses which i'd heard about this i think it's great your course will be a lot like ours i'm going to go back to that slide with the courses was the transfer question jan is about the qr course not the math led course the developmental courses not the transfer issue i think over the next few years most universities will have a qr course i think that's one impact the mta will have in the long term i think we're in a transition period now where some universities won't have it and it'll cause some problems for a while for students in the long term they will they will have one they might even be able to let their own students take it so scott wsu is wayne state we have not checked with him about our course being in lansing not many of our students go there not familiar with that one myself the best thing i suggest there is go to the michigan transfer network website and see what they say about wayne state so lois i agree with the some of what you're saying the problem is that none of those really have a standardized curriculum in michigan somebody talked about in one of our task force minutes everybody knows what college algebra means uh i laughed because i still see a lot of variation in what we call college algebra statistics is a little bit better off but i think there's still inconsistency there but it's true the qr pathway is less uniform and we could use some professional work on what we mean by that in your situation january only transfers the killer course only transfers to private liberal schools that's a little unusual ours we don't know how much it transfers to the private colleges but it does transfer to emu as god's course does as well as a few others you might be right john a textbook seems to drive a lot of our curricular work so danny asking about the books that john's using i think it's called everyday math it could be wrong when i've looked at it oh okay that's still alternative the common materials are not exactly a technical textbook as much as us resources and lessons it's been around for a while certainly one of the problems with the qr is there there are several books but it's not a big market so there's not a lot of strong interests from publishers to develop resources around them i'm hoping that will change partly as a result of mta what other questions do you have concerns or information you want to share john i'll let you answer that one about the webinar materials i think the urban recording does capture this chat as well so jan you're asking a different empty for each university no it's a transfer decision with each institution if the receiving institution doesn't take your qr course then it will as i understand the way they're doing it it will not work for gen ed so it's a transfer question more than an mta question i was hoping that would be eliminated but from what i can see in the macro materials it's not so paul's question we don't have a graph theory class you'd be curious to hear who what kind of students take that class my guess is the graph theory is a pretty unusual class for community college to have so janet the way i phrase it is it's an advising issue if a student is going to msu the advisors need to know that all students going to msu need to follow the college algebra pathway no matter what your program is which that conflicts with how how we'd like this to work is how is being implemented right now so one of the things that i recommend you do is talk to your advising program and to see what they've been told to tell students about math and mta is there are there a process of getting their training in to spring that's interesting i don't know what asm stands for jan i know what you mean i think i'd say the mta works differently with different receiving institutions because of the way this is being implemented it's given the requirement for course transfer for it to work there are going to be advising issues we've got a few minutes left if you have other questions or concerns otherwise we'll wrap up in a couple of minutes so john does that mean we're done no that doesn't actually mean that we're done quite yet but i can actually read through these slides and see if anyone else has any questions after that so thanks again for participating in today's a medic webinar and if you'd like to support future a-matic webinars please consider becoming a member of a medic at bit dot l y slash join a matic and please remember to like amatic on facebook at facebook.com amatic and recordings of past daymatic webinars can be found at bit.ly slash amatic webinars and it typically takes us one to two weeks to produce and upload webinars to this archive and please take two minutes to evaluate the webinar content in the presenter today at bit.ly slash amatic19 and if you need an email confirmation of your participation in this webinar please fill in the optional section at the end of the evaluation and if you have any more questions please put them in the chat room and can we all thank jack for his time today as well fight another presence gladly accepted i appreciate your being here and sharing information today as well as asking questions if you have questions after we get done feel free to send me an email i'll be glad to try to do what i can to give you an answer i appreciate it any questions today okay well it doesn't look like there are any more questions today so i'm actually going to end the recording right now you