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Oh hello welcome to the Alexis webinar cataloguing gender and RDA instruction 9.7 I'm Matt Montgomery from the College of San Mateo I'm a member of Alec's continuing education committee and I will be your host for today's webinar today's webinar sponsored by the gender studies collection from Duke University Press our presenters today are amber Billy and Emily Drew Pinsky amber is the metadata librarian at Columbia University Libraries and is a visiting instructor at Pratt School of Information Amber's chair of the elect's creative ideas and technical services interest group she's the co-chair of the PCC bib frame task group and serves on the PCC nako Task Group on identity management she is also on the advisory board for the digital transgender archive and the editorial board for the home asaurus a linked date of the source for the LGBTQ community emily is an academic librarian author and teacher working in New York City she holds the position of coordinator of library instruction at Long Island University Brooklyn and is a part-time faculty member at Pratt Institute School of Information she was a 2014 library journal mover and shaker advocate and winner of the Eileen F Rahman instruction publication of the Year award in 2015 for her article towards a Kairos of library instruction there are a few things to keep in mind for today's presentation all attendees are muted if you have questions for amber and Emily please type them into the question box on your screen and they will answer them at the end of the presentation our software does not have interactive chat capabilities you may use the ILECs hashtag if you wish to use Twitter to comment on today's presentation the hashtag is al c TS c e we do not monitor the Twitter feed so please use the question box to submit questions and comments this webinar is being recorded and you will receive an email with links to the recording and presentation slides and now here's amber there will be a slight delay as we change presenters thank you so much introduction Matt I'm amber Billy and it is my pleasure to present with you with Emily true Pinsky our research on cataloguing gender and RDA instruction 9.7 we were actually contacted by the RSC secretary that's the RDA we are su secretary sorry I'm pretty nervous we were actually contacted by the RSC secretary and requested us to change our label from RDA rule 9.7 to RDA instruction 9.7 and there are happy to make this change this is a shift in language to support cataloguing culture to support a change in cataloguing culture from strict rules to follow and instead instructions to be interpreted so Emily today we'll be discussing the ways of theory and gender affect our everyday practice of cataloging work and librarianship and I will be going over the practical application of applying that theory to our cataloguing policies and best practices I'm very excited to be bringing this presentation with Emily to you all today it's a combination of reference and instruction librarians coming together with technical services librarians this is a unique opportunity for us to come together and share our dual perspectives and bring it to you today so today we're going to talk about what is gender what is queer theory queer theory and recording gender and name authority records changing what we did to change international cataloguing instructions and implementing policy and best practices to support those changes in RDA so with that I'm going to pass it along to Emily amber I'm thrilled to be asked to join you all within this Alexa event it's just always exciting for me to get talked to technical services librarians as a public services librarian I mostly understand metadata at the point of use and teaching and instruction although I did have a stint as an indexer at the beginning of my career that has taught me that maybe that wasn't my serie of strength I'll just say anyway so the sort of frame that I want to put around our discussion today is one that comes from a career theory perspective as well as a career political perspective that I bring to the catalog when I come to use it and I just sort of use this to frame out what we talk about when we talk about gender from the perspective of career theory so I think for many of us we grew up thinking at gender with something simple right it's one of the first questions anyone asks when a baby is born is it a boy or a girl this idea that that's some simple fact of reality that people simply are one or the other and that is easily determined sort of sits at the basis of I think hegemonic ideology to use some big words but mostly what I mean by that is how most people think about how gender works in the world queer theory does something different with gender and this first slide I'm going to go through each of these bullet points one by one that these are the sort of ways that queer theory makes us think about gender a little bit differently so first from the perspective of queers like myself gender is something that is socially constructed so for me and for queer theory gender and sexuality are not immutable characteristics they aren't something that you are once and for all that's determined a priori outside of all experience instead we come to create our perspectives on sex and gender together as we live in a world that requires us to define these things for ourselves and to each other in certain ways if you think about it there isn't an a priori reason why genitalia should determine so much of our social existence but we can't deny that it does and I think this has a new salience now in the current political moment when you see States literally banning some people from using sir kinds of bathrooms right so it's like a really fundamental a factor that sort of orders social life that I think is important to think about whether or not it has to be that way so that's a social in so we create gender and sexuality socially it's socially constructed the ways that we understand it are the ways that they have that that gender has to be understood so it's the sort of first point I'd like to make the second is that gender and sexual identity are contingent they're understood relationally the way we experience describe our gender and sexuality depends deeply on context so think about forms that require individuals to define as only male or female or sometimes are given the option of transgender and we'll be talking about that over the course of the rest of the webinar right but I have to construct my gender every time I come up against a form or I have to indicate my gender I come up to a bathroom door and I have to make a decision it's contingent based on the context in which I have to make a decision or a declaration about myself this is someone who has a gender the third point I want to make is that gender is contested and it is negotiated gender sexual identity are never settled questions and now I'm going to give you a quote from Judith Butler that for me so it captures what I mean by this and it's from her article imitation and gender and subordination which if you can wade through it I think is really worth the time and she says to claim that this is what I am is to suggest a provisional totalization of this I but if the I can so determine itself than that which it excludes in order to make that determination remains constitutive of the determination itself okay what she means by that and I think it's really essential to how I understand gender and how it operates in the world is that when I name myself when I claim a name for myself woman right it creates something that is not quite woman right oh I'm a woman but not the way emily is a woman or I am a lesbian but not the way that Ellen is a lesbian I'm showing my age and who to pull that's the like lesbian name I can pull up right but every it's sort of a setup every time I claim an identity I produce in excess the kind of identity that someone else can lay a claim to right so I'm a lesbian too but not the kind of Emily is an identity then becomes contested right so I think concretely of a movement like the movement to legalize gay marriage for example which has led lots of my friends who identify as queer to get married for me queer has always met a resistance to normative categories like married but in the contemporary moment queer takes on something quite different from what it meant to queer nation when they claimed that politicized word in 1990 right so now I could be a queer person who gets married whereas in another time or place that wasn't something that queer people wanted desired or had access to so all of these terms and if you think if you stand a little bit on the outside of them you'll understand them to be contested and negotiated kinds of identities now the fourth thing and where I think queer theory intersects and interacts with cataloguing the classification in a really interesting way is that it's always social and public right that we have to claim a name a gender or sexuality some kind of identity category in order to find a other people right it's no fun to be a lesbian alone in my apartment that's kind of fun but there's a there's a different kind of pleasure that comes with it when I can name myself something find others like me and then engage in a social world together so I think one of the things we talk about we talk about gender and cataloging and classification is that we ought to have a term or a word for every single sort of way of being or occupying a gendered space like ever right and while we all might define ourselves and our identities totally differently we have to come to some shared language so that we can join each other in public right so I think about it the way that any identity is a social thing right so I have a lesbian identity or a woman identity that allows me to do some things but I also have a librarian' identity that allows me to be in the selects webinar today with all of you and there's some pleasure I hope that in this sort of shared community space that we get to occupy together right so these are sort of the four axioms about gender that I think are in pretty direct conflict with how librarians like to do things which are to order things settle questions put things in their place and describe them once and for all and that comes up against sort of queer ideas about gender and sexuality interesting ways that I think this RDA rule makes really material and clear so amber if you could give me the next slide this is a one of my favorite images of all time I wish I was at the beach instead I'm in the like slush pile of New York City right now but I think it gives a good job of sort of visualizing how queer theory understands categorization and classification that's different from how librarians do my knowledge organization professor was Barbara quashnick at Syracuse and she said that if you couldn't translate a thought into an image if you couldn't picture it then really you couldn't think the thought at all so for me this image of a wave on the sand helps me understand the shifting contingent identity is a queer queer theory makes us think about and they frame the problem posed by the librarian effort to discipline those identities into our existing systems and structures the idea of a wave on the sand as the trace of a limit comes from an essay by Michel Foucault he writes about the way that the edge of an idea is like a wave on the sand you see it for a moment and then it is a overtaking or traced over by the next wave and then the next and the next and the next and so on you can sit there transfixed for the rest of your life and it still wouldn't be over so you can't fix the limit of what it is to be your occupy a certain kind of social identity I think if our classification rules and instructions will always try to fix the wave in a moment of time in the sand and it's necessary for that kind of social what I would say was like getting together socially for people but collocating on the Shelf if you're a book right and that fixing will always reflect the ideological way of understanding gender and sexuality at the moment the wave was arrested so I think we see something in that RDA instruction about how the sort of dominant ideology wants to fix gender as a as a thing as a binary thing in the system okay amber next slide so in the work of cataloguers and classifiers and as well as Public Service librarians and people like me teaching people how to use these systems this is what we do we make categories for a living we have to write because otherwise you just have a big pile of books and it's very difficult to access all of the categorical decisions that we make and all of the descriptive vocabulary that we use and all the decisions we make about how we order things are political I think people often say why be political about it but like if you're not political about it you're simply in acting I think a dominant sort of ideological scheme and the work that you do and so the our question has been why encode gender at all that continues to be my question I'm not sure it's necessary or what value there is or if the value exceeds the problematic of buttressing and upholding assistance that binary gender but if we are going to encode it then we need to think really critically about how we encode that and I'm going to turn that over to amber who's going to describe that in the RDA rules so thank you thank you so much Emily so for us to explore how we got to RDA 9.7 we need to go back to how we originally thought about authority work so what we can do is go back to aacr2 and ACR where for decades the primary goal of authority records was to identify the individual their name label their access point disambiguate that name the access point from any other name in the database and to co-locate all like items that that author created or were associated with that meaning under a single name access point so the primary goal was really just to have that unique access point we weren't providing justification about that name we weren't providing about decisions about that name we were just creating that unique access point and then with RDA we aspire to Fred user tasks only which include to find identify contextualize and justify fraud is part of that whole fervor family so Furber fraud and the infer sad right fr s ad you know I'm not even going to get into what eventually will become the library reference model which will be replacing the Ferber family because we're not there yet we're still dealing with the RDA that we have on hand which is based on these fraud user tasks and in Furber Furber Furber Furber so this added many new cataloguing elements to facilitate that contextualization and justification when identifying new individuals in our name authority records but how did gender even get any to RDA how did even get into fraud we have to go back to 2004 when the ISO five-to-one 8 was first introduced as a standard of syntax for encoding the human sexes in there you have options for male/female not known and and not applicable this was seen as the inspiration for fraud along with it flows guidelines for authority records and reference and the you know mark manual which is the manual for a European market based cataloging which included a fixed length character field in the 120 tag for gender and really this is the only explicit mention mention of gender that you can see that inspired the gender element in fraud also inspired fred was the ice our CPF for the international standard for archival authority records for corporate bodies persons and families now gender is a part of the history element but it's it's not an element in its of itself as part of ice our CPF so Fred really was the first to identify this as an element in and of itself and that's how I got rolled into our DNA instruction seven when I was first published in 2011 then we saw the Library of Congress and the program for cooperative cataloging and the neiko training for the interpretation on how to apply RDA 9.7 and then their 2013 training videos hosted on the Library of Congress websites they encouraged cataloguers to record gender based on simply the entities name or the physical appearance so you know making sort of a catalogers judgment on what the gender should be and this led to as we'll see a lot of complicated situations so let's take a look at RDA back in 2011 so I actually pulled out RDA off our reference shelf and cataloging open it up if you if you remember we actually printed it in 2011 and I took a picture of it and so here it is the basic instructions for recording gender gender is the gender with which a person identifies you can take that information on gender from any source and then record the gender of a person using an appropriate term from the list below and here we're given three options female now and not known if none of these terms listed as appropriate or sufficient they specific record an appropriate term of a phrase and here they give suggestions of maybe intersex or transsexual woman and then indicate the source from which the information on gender of the person is derived applying instructions under 8 point 12 so here we see three options that were encouraged to use by catalogers running when encoding gender for for an ACO record these three options were actually the only RDA controlled vocabularies used for persons and so really what this says is that it reinforces that regressive idea of gender - this binary label because it was the only controlled vocabulary it is it's effectively other agenda non-conforming individuals and as our salt with the transformation of tons and tons of NATO Records in our name Authority file to add RTA elements of gender and of you know a profession and affiliation and languages we had but specifically for gender with this mass identification you could almost see it as a passive hostility toward authors who understand gender from that queers perspective so gender according to RDA at least in 2011 was literally embodied based on physical characteristics it was easily identified or defined based on your name or is visually identified on that picture that we were encouraged to see if there was something on the book jacket and you really had those three options female male or empty data or other right at this other if none of these three then choose something else from a non controlled vocabulary and then it's fixed now and forever in this name Authority record that ripples like a pebble in water in a digital environment that goes into other data sets and other data sets so this has real-world ramifications and I'm going to go through several examples that illustrate this that illustrates the normative bias that resulted in the original RDA 9.7 so here we have the example of Chaz Bono Chaz Bono's name heading here as Bono can watch as the gender we have female 1969 through 2008 question mark gender male 2008 question mark to present and then we have the variant of Chaz's what we could consider his dead name dead name being the name that was given to Chaz but he no longer identifies with that name so do we know for certain that Chaz truly changed his death gender on that year does this this doesn't we can't say certain that Chaz decided in 2008 that boom he's no it does not account for bonus lived experience of his gender which is certainly not bound to that calendar date and I go back I think back to Emily a slide of that of that Beach and I want to be back at that beach but I think of that Beach and you know if these things aren't fixed in time they're not linear gender can change over and over again throughout a person's lifetime so Y and our cataloguing practices are we trying to fix it into a place and time the next is miss identification here we have the example of Big Freedia she's the hip-hop Bounce artist from from New Orleans and I'm so happy to I don't know present this person to you because they are amazing in fabulous um Big Freedia originally and their name authority record was noted as female Big Freedia is I don't know while he wears women's hair carry the purse identifies as a gay man and has very publicly talked about this so you know given cataloguers judgement at some point Big Freedia and their initial name Authority record was nota this female and this can have rippling effects as well and then we have the instance of an example like Kate Bornstein where can we hear me say that the gender is known as transgender and that is that is a correct assessment they identify as transgender however I don't understand the necessity to disclose very personal information such as surgeries or operations to justify that gender change or justify that identity is it not enough just to note that Kate identifies as transgender without disclosing that medical information could this possibly be a HIPAA violation these are questions that I just I don't have answers to and I find troubling that we record these very personal informations there's very personal information about individuals also our DA brought in the gender of fictional characters and I look at this and I think of course Kermie is male like but if a puppet can have a gender that draws questions into what defines gender and how we apply gender and our name authority records and then we have the case of either a coyote and here I list Ivan's full name heading however I leave out the I leave out the fuller form of the middle initial because that fuller form actually outs Ivan's transgender identity because it's a feminine name and the history of this name Authority record is very interesting Ivan's Ivan coyote has never published a work with that fuller form of name the fuller form of name was taken from cataloging and publication data and it's as we see this record over time flesh out there's more and more justification of including that feminized fuller form of the middle initial even though the author never published this under this name this full name even though they never even even though yeah even though they don't ever publish under this name we have no way of knowing if this is how they want to be identified this essentially outs Ivan through the existence of this name authority record every time it's used like like a ripple in in water this data will continue forever for the length of this data and it will continue to out Ivan whether they consent to this or not so why do we provide this extra justification for transgender individuals we do not do this for cisgender authors cisgender being the term for people who whose gender identity matches the sex they were assigned with at earth we add so much information and justification to gender non can authors but we don't do this for other authors so I question this practice of adding such detailed personal information for justification the research by Thompson in 2016 backs up this exception justification that we add for trans authors of the records that Thompson analyzed 65% of name authority records for trans authors contains some sort of Alba information and Thompson considered the Outing information to include multiple 375 fields having a trans related term used in the 375 and trans identity indicated someone else where in the name authority record such as in the 670 like we saw in Kate Bornstein name authority record so so why why do we do this why do we treat transgendered authors so differently and I would say that a large part is probably ignorant I'm doing the best to trace this information to justify this information I would argue that there's also a certain amount of stigma associated with gender non-conforming individuals and our treatment of them in the name of thority file and then that needs to just flat out transphobia but we have the opportunity we have the privilege we have the power to accurately represent authors as they choose to be known and in the words of Ivan de coyote I say call us what we wish to be called that is the most agency that we can give an individual is to use the words they use to describe themselves and that's what I encourage us to do and that's what we'll see that we strive to do when we change the law of the RDA instruction nine point seven and the subsequent interpretation of that new rule instruction so we needed to change the instructions I think to be more inclusive let me show you how we did that so a tract proposal was submitted to the joint steering committee which is now the RSC the RDA steering committee to add transgender as an official term to the RDA vocabularies this is done in summer 2015 we felt the group of librarians who put this fast-track proposal up we thought that transgender was an umbrella term that was accepted by the trans community that it would continue to promote controlled vocabularies and collocations but open up open up the the vocabulary to it to no longer be such a reinforcement of binary labels that we could have that label for trans or gender non-conforming individuals however this proposal was deferred by the broader issue that was deferred and the broader issue was discussed at the joint steering committee on November 2015 meeting the our proposal was actually not accepted however a new fast-track proposal was submitted by the joint steering committee to the joint steering committee to deprecate the entire controlled vocabulary for gender the entire vocabulary and redefine the element by deprecating the entire vocabulary this helps support internationalization of RDA because different cataloging communities in different countries will then have the ability to define gender based on how that cataloging community and that country or that region understands gender and so in many ways we benefit from internationalization in this in this initiative this proposal was accepted in February 2016 so here's the new RDA this is what we're working with today what we see here is that we still the same definition of gender that gender as the gender is the gender with with which a person identifies you take the source of gender from any source and you record the gender of the person using an appropriate term in the language preferred by the agency creating the data select a term from the standard list if available record gender as a separate element gender is not recorded as part of an access point so what we see here is no more controlled vocabulary we can use any term appropriate to help describe the person as the person identifies and it is suggest that we choose a term from a standard list okay this is very exciting when this changed happened so why do we even still record gender at all and I I agree with Emily I'm I question this I struggle with this question but I do recognize that it is an important way that we organize and identify people whether we like it or not the interesting case is really that disambiguation is still an issue for our text-based databases where our access points are still being used for disambiguation we also need the additional information in circumstances like non Roman characters where the difference of a character stroke and a in a Chinese character can mean the difference of a male or female name but in a transliteration you would never know that so you need to have the gender marker to understand that the Outlook who the author is and of course we still have the issue with unisex names and gender can be one way to disambiguate those individuals so I recognize that it's important but I struggle in the necessity to record it so new instructions needed new best practices once the RDA instruction was changed this ignited very lively discussions on the cataloging email lists and as a result a program through cooperative cataloging ad hoc task group formed to draft new best practices for recording gender and name Authority records this committee had produced a report in October 1st 2016 and these recommendations were well received at the PCC policy committee at their November 2016 meeting however these recommendations are still under review and to work out the details for how to implement this so I'm gonna go through these recommended based best practices that were published by in the report and you at the end I'll give you a link to the report you guys community you know read the report on your own in your own time so the task group recommends to record information about gender as a person identifies as the person self identifies and explicitly discloses taking information from readily and publicly available sources such as biographical information published on the resource biographical information provided by the publisher authors personal website or social media profiles direct communication with the author and for non contemporary persons use works by the person as well as biographies of virtue Ares articles etc about the person record males and females in accordance with the term used by the person or with gender pronouns and inflected nouns used in the source do not assume gender identity based on pictures or names and do not dig do not research do not go out there and try and find the given name or genders assigned at Birth for transgender and/or transsexual persons record the term transgender people or transsexuals in accordance with the term used by the person while these two terms are closely related there are two separate identities but often you know a person will have a strong feeling how identify with one or another so use the words that the person uses to describe themselves for well-known persons who publicly transition between male and female midlife and have literary warrant and and have literary warning warrant to for recording both genders record both males and females and other terms as applicable record gender terms based on information in the source for example if a person claims to be a cisgender male record sister nor persons and males if the person just says at the young boy or uses male pronouns then record just simply males do not assume that he has cisgender or transgender record dates in the 375 subfield s & subfield T associated with a gender only when the person explicitly provides dates of transition justify gender data recorded in a 375 field in the subfield B or the 670 field or in both and this is probably one of the most important takeaways and again this is coming right out of Thompson's excellent article from from 2016 that I highly encourage everyone to read is to consider the three following considerations taken account of three following considerations is there potential for this information to harm the person through outing or violating their right to privacy is there an indication that the person can sense - having this information shared publicly will including this information help the library user in the search process and I think that that last question is an important thing to consider so with these proposed best practices and recommendations by the PCC ad-hoc committee these are these are inspiration for a new proposed descriptive cataloging manual section D 1 for the 375 the mark record and also a PCC Elsi policy statement for RDA 9.7 so now I'm going to go through those rules for the TCM g1 375 and Emily I'm so sorry this is and for any other public services folks this is very tech services cataloging nerd time but we're gonna get through it together so the proposed new DCM z13 75 practices include record only terms that represent the identity or identities with which the person's self identifies taking this directly from the ad-hoc committees recommendations this could be descriptive statements by the person the use of personal or possessive pronouns do not assume gender based solely on a photograph or an image of the person and of course as always in case of doubt just just leave it out when recording a gender term prefer terms from a subset of the gender category of the Library of Congress demographic group terms LC D GT so here we give a subset of females gender minorities intersex people nails transgender people and transsexuals the PCC ad hoc committee is working to expand the vocabulary in the LCD GT to have more terms for gender options and that work is currently underway and so hopefully we'll have more terms for describing gender as needed but for now we recommend that this subset be what we use for our cataloguing and describing gender and individuals so here's an example so it's just a general example for a person who identifies himself as male or uses male pronouns to refer to himself so the 375 sup build a males and we're citing this when we're citing the source of the term and subfield to the LCD GT so continuing the DCM z1 375 practices whenever possible propose additional needed gender identity terms through the Seiko program and that's what the PCC ad-hoc committee on recording gender is working on as well but I encourage you if you come across any self-identified terminology for gender of an author that is not in the LCD gt2 go ahead and propose additional needed terms through the Seiko program do not record terms that incorporate elements of age or sexual orientations as such as boys or women or lesbians so really just stick to to that subset that we identified so here's an example of multiple terms to represent multiple gender identities and separate fields and you know this is sort of a best practice that we're moving to I know that you could repeat the sub field and a single 375 but moving forward with linked data it's better if we can separate these out because eventually we're going to be putting identifiers in here and it's very difficult to associate an identifier with the subfield a and multiple if there's multiple subfield a's so it's really best practice for us to start separating out the multiple data points within a single tag of a mark mark field so here we see an example of her the first example is a person who identifies himself as a transgender man so we're recording males and transgender people the second example is a person who originally published and self-identified as a man and subsequently published and self-identified as a transsexual woman so you see females transsexuals and males and the third example is a person who identifies as a cisgender woman very explicitly so we see that we recorded females and cisgender people and cisgender people being actually a term established in the LCS H but it's also now a proposed term in the LCD GT living on record additional controlled or uncontrolled terms in separate fields as needed for consistency capitalize the first word of the term when terms do not come from a control vocabulary use a singular form and do not include a subfield - and here you know if you want to look for sources for gender you can go to LC gender code and term source list codes for the for the market 375 and here's an example of other vocabulary usage examples so here we see a controlled term from we're using the LCS H so we have females transsexuals and then male to female transsexual is coming from the LCS age and the second word or the second example here is pulling a term from the homo Saurus and it's a term used in Thailand to for either transgender women or effeminate gay men so here we can see female transgender people and oh boy oh Jesus I should have looked that up sorry if I didn't pronounce that correctly finally record dates associated with a particular gender identity and some field essence of beauty only when a person provides the dates so only one that person self discloses that information do we record that and so here we have a few examples of that where we can see that the person's self disclosed their gender transition in the in the in a source available to the cataloger and we were able to record the dates there so next steps as always Nicko members are who ever encounter incorrect information in authority records including the 375 field are encouraged to correct the information as I mentioned earlier the PCC ad-hoc committee for recording gender are working to add inclusive terms for gender internet LCD GT but should you come across any any terminology that you would like to have added go ahead and submit a proposal through the seco program an investigate we need to investigate a need for maybe a Maiko funnel group to handle these name Authority records for queer and trans individuals we want to I want to I think it'd be really interesting if we investigate leveraging publishers online author questionnaires so that the authors can self disclose their gender and then we can leverage that data coming directly from the author for our name Authority records and moving kind of in toward that direction is investigating the impact of open link data as we shift from these string-based literal or text-based labels for our access points into identifiers and what kind of data can be harvest from open datasets and how can we compare our data to open datasets and hopefully get a more well-rounded representation of these individuals as they wish to be identified so I encourage you to read up on this topic if you find this interesting I list a couple references here and I include a link to the PCC ad-hoc task group on recording gender and their report so I highly encourage you to take a look at that and I just want to thank the folks who helped with the fast-track proposal and the PCC ad-hoc committee and a very special thanks to Paul Frank at Library of Congress for looking over these slides and for all of his amazing work and for Kathy going on at the RTA steering committee for being very patient and reading all my emails and you know helping get this get this RDA instruction change past and this very special thanks to KR roberto and with that thank you very much and we're happy to take questions hi Thank You amber anomaly that was a really compelling talk we already have some questions and I encourage all of you to submit additional questions and comments using the comment box the first question we have is will the PCC ad hoc committee be issuing guidelines on populating field 386 contributor creator characteristics and records 86 well that was not the initial charge of this committee but I could see this committee working on that work so maybe that's something that we need to bring back to PCC if that's something that the PCC membership would like some guidelines on then we you know this committee or not committee would be happy to figure out guidelines for that so at this time that's our charge is complete and at this time I don't know of any work happening on the 386 but I know that Paul Frank's on the call so if he wants to speak to this you can just chat the organizers or put in an answer to the organizers but if this is something that the membership once then were then we can happily try and facilitate that what's there a discussion of recording preferred pronouns also has the issue of gender non-conforming individuals been addressed in proposed terminology but I was preferred pronouns discussed as recording like in the 6th 7d or just recording it for justification I think in the in the authority record to know what pronouns one would want to use um that specific issue wasn't talked about like recording it like this author prefers these pronouns however looking at pronoun usage was discussed to justify recording the preferred gender term I think that's an interesting idea to make also included preferred pronoun choice not maybe should be something if there's an eco funnel for queer and trans individuals that would be something that I think that that group could discuss what was the second part to the question the second part of the question was how's the issue of gender non-conforming individuals been addressed in proposed terminology yes if you look at the report that we published um and actually let me go back and I'm gonna dangerously bring something up on the web you can come can they see this yeah I can see it on my screen okay great if you go to this report you can see the additional terms that we proposed so new terms and on here is we've got two spirit people gender non-binary people a gender people so I just encouraged this individual to take a look at this and see if if the terminology that we're proposing fulfills what they're hoping or what they would like out of a term and if not then I suggested they propose a term through the single program great just got a response from Paul Frank amber is right not part of their charge but certainly something the proposed funnel could look at great thank you Paul another question just came in will this change be retrospectively applied to already created records I don't I I don't know I don't have a good answer for that I really don't and that might be some of the I don't know how I don't know how we would go back I think that there is value in the work that was done and it's so rare that we go back and erase anything in our name authority record right so I think that moving forward it's about practice for new with nor new Authority records and making changes as we see necessary so I'm actually I want to contact Ivan eat coyote and find out how they would prefer their name to be in the name authority record and so that's something maybe a change that we could make there was a change made to big feet owes a thirty record after my article with Emily and kr was published that changed his gender from female to male so I think we can i I doubt we'll see like a mass change but I can see change moving forward if that makes sense great getting a few more in here since RDA nine point seven point one point one defies gender as a gender with which the person identifies rather than there presentation etc why include date related to an individual's social public or physical transition that's a really good question I I don't have a very good answer for it um I prefer not to include dates one of the courting gender and that's just my cataloguers judgment but I could see some cataloguers making the judgment that it provides that contextualization to justify the gender change I can it adds information about the author to the new Authority record but I I don't know I find it to be irrelevant information I can see and I go ahead if I could just turn in on that too I think it is film like you have to ask what the purpose of the authority record is it's to like tell the truth about who the author truly really is and that's one thing but that's something I would negotiate I would say you know with my therapist or my god or whatever not really in the name authority record I think that the point there is a good one that if it's about identity and how I personally see myself what is the purpose of making that public I think it's a good interesting and compelling question yes I absolutely agree okay we got another response from Paul Frank about I think your last response before that um hard to answer that one could be changed corrected as needed when encountering on a one-off basis but the feature is greater than the past applies here so that goes back to to that discussion and any more questions here I know I saw another one come in I just have to oh and the other another question that just came in is this being applied to archival descriptive practices as well I have no idea um I would encourage it to be applied hybl descriptive practices I really this work has been really focused in a library environment and the name authority file if archival practices take advantage of the Library of Congress name authority file then it will impact their work but as far as I saw its yeah ice our CPF I'm not sure how do you approach gender so that would be another area for a future study great and we have time for just one more question if anyone has any more just checking the question box right now to make sure so here's one more that came in given given the shift in aacr2 from identifying disambiguating and kala cating to the fragile sir tasks of RDA do you think we've taken a wrong turn from aacr2 when it comes to this topic really good question I don't think so I mean I do think that RDA brings a lot of really important contextual information that is important for identifying the individual you know ACR to really had us focus on the text string label for the person and RDA is setting us up for link data it's setting us up for where we're dealing with i with entity map management instead of those name labels and with entity management we can you know we're not tied to that string label we're managing the whole entity through a unique resource identifier through a URI and we can have information about that person linked to its URI coming from varied sources but also from you know from the data associated with that at URI itself so I don't think we've taken a wrong turn it's just how we apply these rules that we need to be cognizant of and be humane about and be respectful because we're describing humans with real lived experiences that have dignity you know that have a right to exist as they are as they choose to identify I mean at least that's what I believe and I think it's up to us the cataloguers with the power and the privilege to create this this metadata to just to accurately describe these people as they wish to to be represented as they self disclose and as they as they represent themselves so no I don't think it was a wrong turn I think our da rrdi took us in a in a in a fabulous direction okay thanks for that um so let me just grab the slide here so we're glad you could be with us today you will soon receive a short online evaluation form please take a few minutes to respond to the questions your comments are very valuable and helped the elects continuing education committee plan future events thanks to Kathryn Balak and Julia Hess of the elects continuing education committee and Meghan Doherty of the elects office for technical support the support they provide makes it possible for us to present these webinars smoothly thanks to the gender studies collection from Duke University Press for sponsoring this webinar we have many events coming up we have several more webinars this spring as you can see our next one is on talent management and succession planning and that one is followed up by myth-busting the search for a tech services generalist we also offer web courses which are four to six weeks long and efore UM's which are two-day email discussions you'll find more information on the elects website we hope you will participate in other elects continuing education offerings again in the future this concludes our session thank you for joining us