Digital Sign Cooperation Agreement Made Easy

Digital sign cooperation agreement

good evening everyone mao goja bonikowska the center for international relations poland uh welcome at this uh tuesday talk we do it every tuesday to discuss the world the situation in europe um the title is zone the world and we do this series with the conrad and our foundation and today we speak english because the topic is about brexit something which we really feel now happening because the transition period is over the uk is out of the european union and we would like to discuss what it means for europe for the uk but also for the republic of ireland which no doubt was very worried about this process and it's maybe the most affected out of all the eu member states so welcome uh gentlemen we have two uh speakers today who are really the best for such discussion let me welcome first our guest from dublin bobby mcdonna hi bobby hi there i'm delighted to have you with us and thank you for agreeing for this talk um mr mcdonough was actually a diplomat an irish diplomat for many years with the department of foreign affairs and trade he was a permanent representative of ireland to the european union he was the irish ambassador to italy but also to the uk and malaysia and also he worked in brussels he knows brussels quite well working with two irish eu commissioners and also in the european parliament so i hope you will let us you will help us to understand what uh brexit means for the irish and the second speaker is professor vargnet konarsky is my colleague from the vistula university in warsaw he's director of this university but as far as his academic profile he's is a specialist an expert on ireland first of all especially northern ireland and he also wrote several books not only on this country but also on different uh you know certain places in europe different problems in europe as well concerning local conflict uh regional and nationalistic movements so um i hope you will help us to understand not only how we europeans see brexit but also what is your understanding what is happening now in ireland uk and especially northern ireland first question would go to bobby um your excellency as a former diplomat uh could you tell us actually how the irish took brexit when it started and what is this process what does this mean for you well i'm delighted to join you today michael sata thank you for inviting me um the first thing to say is that there's political consensus in ireland about brexit there's not political consensus about many things but right across the political spectrum the view is that brexit is a mistake we know that there are many people in the uk perhaps half the people there who disagree with me but in ireland uh we all approach brexit and have approached it with sadness and regret it's going to pose problems for ireland and for our farmers for our traders it's also not good for the european union because britain was a very important member and helped significantly to shape the european union including being an advocate for the early enlargement of the union to include poland it's not good for the uk either in our view we think it will not be good for the uk economically or in terms of its influence it's not good for british irish relations and it's not good for the delicate peace process in northern ireland so basically uh as the european union has said all along there are no winners from brexit but that sadness if you like is tempered by the fact that we now have a trade deal um it's a minimalist trade deal but it's a lot better than not having one we also have the northern ireland protocol as part of the withdrawal agreement which ensures that there will be no no controls and no new border on the island of ireland which is very important and having that minimal trade deal uh and also the northern ireland protocol means that we have a basis for improving relations in future if we had a complete rupture without a deal we would have gone into a downward spiral but now we can go into whatever the opposite of a downward spiral is and hopefully when things settle down and perhaps future british governments will want a closer relationship with the european union i'm sure that a labour government would immediately rejoin erasmus for example so that students can continue to enjoy those each other's universities so um we're sad but we think it could be worse uh we're going through covet now which in many ways is is more shocking and more dramatic but kobut will pass you know within a year or at most 18 months covet will be will be history whereas brexit uh will be the future this is also a good thing in this moment just to stress that the despite brexit um still you know the european countries the european union countries and the brussels institutions also tried to still work with the uk as far as you know the vaccination process and coordination of all these efforts to fight pandemic um before we go into details of the deal i want to move to my virginia you can we can call you um can you tell us because you are neutral in this process you are a polish scholar who specializes in in in ireland uh but also who sees this situation from the distance you're a political scientist you're a historian uh what do you how could you describe the consequences of this process this breakup which no one is happy about in europe for both uk and ireland i think first of all again thank you for the invitation for taking part in this very interesting afternoon i'm very much pleased to be here with all of you and uh in reference to the the question just post i think that uh there are several levels in which you have to identify some uh future consequences of decision called brexit and let me remind that the brexit as a term has been invented already in 2012 but by by uh peter wielding and it has become afterwards a typical sort of the description or abbreviation of the process which has been initiated in a very misfortunate way by a former british prime minister david cameron whom i definitely and totally blame for the initiation of this process because in fact it was very intentional uh made by him but of course his intention was not to leave you a eu but to measure his popularity and leadership within the tourist party and he went too far simply speaking was or not i built it unable to think what might be the consequences of this announcement in regards to debate about such process uh like brexit became to be known since 2012. well it seems that the british public opinion didn't really change since then i mean there's still you know those who support strongly brexit and believe in i'm coming definitely yes right but it is very closely uh identified with the divisions within the society and if i see any levels of the consequences of the brexit i can see three of them mostly these are economic political and psychological in terms of the economy as we know and again coming back to your question we might say that of course in the so-called provincial britain there is a great support for the brexit idea however within the younger generation people living uh and having very good ties to the rest of europe there is a great disagreement for the process initiated by the third party that's one thing and the tory party and common decision has been afterwards followed by the uh involvement of such controversial politicians within the eye within the british political stage like nigel farad who speaks excellent english but who is really sort of the controversial adventurer i like his style of talking english but it's only one thing which i like in his uh political profile and frankly speaking i think that uh economic uh level is identified with the as i said a great disagreement of the younger generations people from the london city who were already involved in the uh most important economic exchange of financial exchange with the rest of europe in terms of the politics these consequences which might be coming are also very important and they definitely show to the british british public opinion that brexit might be a very dangerous process which has been just initiated a process understood as the danger for the internal cohesiveness of british or british state of the united kingdom in terms of the ethno-national lines and in terms of the interests of those communities which do have right now their own national national interest i'm having of course in mind to especially scots scotsman northern irish and to much lesser extent welshman but anyway i think that from the political point of view and from the point of view of the cohesiveness of the british state it is a real danger for the segmentation of of united kingdom and the third level which is i call it as a psychological one refers to the issue that people are really much very much frustrated those who are active who are oriented into the professionalism who are unsatisfied with the problems which may arise quite soon with the exchange of students with exchange of the capital exchange of the trade this is something which makes people frustrated and which may have also some psychologically based consequences this is my presumption in terms of the british public opinion so you mentioned three areas maybe bobby you could react in that let me start with political question because it's a very important one and vargenet made a very uh very radical statement saying that brexit can influence the uh integrity of the the uk uh what is your perception you were the irish ambassador to the uk you know this country very well uh would you expect the further developments towards you know the referendum another referendum in scotland and what about northern ireland well i think the professor is right that the uk is divided on the issue of brexit i think they're going to get on with it now they're out they're not going to have another referendum in the foreseeable future but the form of brexit that was chosen by the british government was quite a hard form of brexit it was not a step towards the other side of the the argument in the uk if you then look at at scotland um the scottish national party is already by far the largest party in scotland and there's an election coming up soon and scotland voted by a significant majority against brexit so being pulled out of the european union against their will out of erasmus for example i've mentioned already but with scottish people losing many of their employment rights and and residence rights and so on um it's clearly going to add to the case for a scottish independence so i mean i'm not as a former irish representative in london good to take a view on that but just objectively speaking it is going to increase the arguments in favor of scottish independence and we have to see where that plays out because scottish people are comfortable with the dual identity in the same way that irish people are and polish people are to see the irish flag flying beside the european flag is something we're extremely comfortable with it's the scottish people are comfortable with with it as well so they're not happy with where they are but it's entirely a matter for them and for the united kingdom as a whole to work at their future northern ireland we're much more closely involved in because ireland is a co-guarantor of the peace process in northern ireland and again the majority in northern ireland most of the catholic nationalists but a significant number of unionists and also the almost the entire business community voted against brexit and they are now finding themselves with similar uh impact on their identity being pulled out of the european union so i think it makes people uh less comfortable being part of the united kingdom but having said that there is there are a very significant number of people who entirely legitimately unionists who want to remain part of the united kingdom but brexit doesn't help their argument well we have a question from the floor let me quote it do you think brexit will lead or will make possible the future you know unification of the island one day i think that the issue of the future unification of the island is already an issue on the agenda it hasn't been resolved because in the good friday agreement signed up to by the two governments and the political parties in northern ireland it is provided that the british government is obliged to hold a referendum if it appears that a majority in northern ireland want irish unity so it's not like scotland it's not a matter of being in the gift of the london government they're legally obliged to do that and the population of northern ireland is changing so the number of if you like catholics is going up and protestants going down and we also saw a majority if you like voting against the the majority of unionist opinion in the brexit referendum so it's already an issue on the agenda brexit does um further add fuel to that agenda but having said that there's an agreement being reached which i can explain in detail if you like but northern ireland while leaving the european union with the rest of the united kingdom and remaining part of the united kingdom for many purposes including the european uh single marketing services but for the single marketing goods it will in effect remain part of the european union and in some ways that brings northern ireland closer to the european union but in another way it is not stoking up the case for irish unity if northern ireland had left and the border had to be introduced on the island of ireland because northern ireland was leaving the common market for goods that would have really uh turbocharged the arguments for irish unity so i think having an arrangement that doesn't unsettle the relationships on the island of ireland um it's not it doesn't land the issue of irish unity on the table which was there already uh but it it it's an additional factor there but population change um remains a significant factor as well and i'd also say like the basis of the good friday agreement in 1998 was a respect for both traditions for both sets of aspirations equally so people were entitled to to want to remain part of the united kingdom and unless a majority wanted to change that would remain but also they were entitled to develop the all ireland dimension entitled indeed legally entitled to a referendum if a majority wanted it and the european union has agreed in the brexit negotiations that if northern if northern ireland does join the rest of ireland it will automatically become part of the european union so there will be no need for a new negotiation as they would with scotland so let me ask you in this moment let let me move into uh genius for a moment but uh let me come back to this um question of uh the perception and the you know the future of the situation in ireland because i understand from what you said that definitely implementing a border would have been much worse solution so in this sense the agreement reached is is somehow a compromise which at least uh allows the people in the island to to to stay you know peaceful however it's also uh one step towards further changes uh virginia you spent years on uh research on northern ireland issue and you know very well you know the good fighter agreement everything every single detail how do you see this this situation now uh when we don't have the border but we have this strange fact that northern ireland it's in custom union with the european union as far as goods so in a way boris johnson agreed on something is a mate didn't want to agree to have a kind of an internal border within two parts of the uk alice johnson is sort of the stab on the realist and and he's trying of course to withdraw certain conclusions from some of the decisions he has made already before but i i think he is a politician who went in some of the some of the segments definitely too far but i think that if you allow me uh i would like to remind some important facts from the irish history and in fact the ivy british history first of all uh i mean uh ambassador mcdonough is absolutely right when he is recalling the uh requirement that only the majority of the society northern ireland may decide what might be the final decision of the status of this sofa province of united kingdom but it has been prepared in some of the documents over the in the 20s and in 1973 those documents the first one that was omitted into the parliament of northern ireland the second one on the majority of the population this is one thing and mr ambassador is absolutely right when he's saying that the number of catholics is rising and it may have a definite uh a definite uh it may help to make the final decision after some years definitely not now secondly we have to bear in mind that unification of ireland is the uh sort of the basic point in the program of all of the serious and most important and historical irish political parties including fianna foreign and of course even shin fein which was not of course before uh perceived as the as the serious party but of course for more than 20 years it is as such and the industry partner no irish party has resigned from this argumentation from this postulate in the programs and men and party manifestos this is also very important and another third issue which we have to remind is the declaration of the downing street from 1993 when for the first time in the irish british relations history then prime minister john major together with the irish prime minister mr reynolds they already came to the conclusion that britain does not have any further selfish interest as far as the uh as the as ireland is concerned island understood as the entire island but especially northern ireland as the province of britain which gave a certain set and free chance to renegotiate of the status in the predictable future and with the constant of all of the sites involved namely catholics and protestants in northern ireland irish government and better government this is very important declaration has been made 27 years ago which i'm afraid to very large extent has been undermined by some of the decisions undertaken before by boris johnson in this way it is really okay that finally some decisions were recently undertaken like this like like the the status of the for instance the trade area uh between ireland and northern ireland by the way um if i if i'm using the term republic of ireland i'm absolutely aware of the fact that this is not the constitutional name because ireland is not a republic in terms of the constitutional meaning is ere still and this is the official name of the country declared in 1937 constitution and as devalera said once the republic as the official name of the of ireland will be finally decided if ireland is unified so republic more or less is rather the technical word or what which is the uh not prime not pristine but the secondary source of the law adopted in 1949 in a separate act of the irish parliament and coming back to the issue and coming to the conclusion i think that the unification of ireland as the entire island is the easy process which is absolutely unavoidable but it is a evolutionary and i hope not revolutionary process that's right the fact that the good friday agreement has been undersigned uh made or was in fact sort of the precedence very resonable very very uh clever and based on some of the uh some of the previous mistakes committed by very many sites involved in the conflict a decision which gave the chance to reconciliate the communities and also the open new chances for the exchange of trade issues of the education and also of having been more more connected family to family this was something which was absolutely important and those 22 years which are behind us uh are showing to what extent people may be conciliatory to each other that's why brexit is the wrong thing from this point of view well did i just add to um professor's um historical perspective just to add i mean the british and irish governments have worked very very closely together to achieve peace in northern ireland and it is i'm absolutely sure the wish both of the government in london and the government of dublin to continue to do so and a very important factor in all of this is that irish nationalism has accepted for a long time now that the only unity worth having is a unity of people indeed it's not a unity of territory brought about by violence the vast majority of people in ireland were opposed to the terrorism of the latter part of the 20th century so for that reason and the current government which is of more if you like republican nationalist tradition than some others might be um it has established a unit a shared island unit in the prime minister's office to discuss how we are going to share our island and our current t-shirt prime minister does not talk explicitly about irish unity he talks about a shared ireland and i think a lot of people support him in that because a unity that is imposed or ram down people's throats is not going to be unity at all so it's it's an extraordinarily delicate and difficult um thing to manage but what we have to do is to recognize the aspirations of both communities and in the same way that we argued that the nationalist community was for a long time disrespected in northern ireland we absolutely must not make the same mistake of not respecting the unionist community in northern ireland so so some time is going to be required and some serious thinking is going to be required because if one day there is irish unity we in ireland are going to have to respect britishness we're going to have to respect the union jack in the same way that we expected uh the united kingdom to respect irish nationalism in northern ireland so these are these are pretty tricky questions and it's going to take some time but it's very good that you mentioned that and i also wanted to quote a question from the from the audience here from sylvia levadovska who is asking about this british irish relations and also people-to-people contacts would you expect that brexit will worsen it because somehow you know under the european union irish and the brits were i mean in one union now they are on the other side it may affect the the the relations between these two nations look ireland and the united kingdom have probably got as great and as long a historical rivalry as any other two countries in the world and that history was quite tragic at times and but over recent decades we have become very close friends culminating in the visit of the british queen to ireland in 2011 the first visit by a british monarch to an independent ireland where she was welcomed very warmly very very warmly indeed and the context for that growing friendship between our two countries was the european union i sat around tables with british colleagues for 30 years i saw how influential they were how traditionally sympathetic they were to irish issues how they understood us how we so often work together we often differed as well um but before the modern troubles started in northern ireland british ministers and irish ministers british civil servants irish civil servants didn't know each other but over the nearly half century of british irish membership we became friends we had a shared context for for solving difficulties or pursuing shared objectives and unfortunately that is gone so the will is very much still there on the irish side as i'm sure it is on the british side to maintain that friendship but the context for the friendship is now much more difficult because we're not sitting around the same table so we're going to have to work much harder at it and unfortunately the whole relationship is going to have to be seen for some time through the prism of brexit um we're not just one inside the european union and the other not but we have different ways of perceiving the world we're set on different courses we take for example the uh the british insistence on sovereignty in the context of the brexit negotiations they're perfectly entitled to do that but i can tell you for certain that ireland is every bit as attached to its sovereignty after all we had to struggle for it for a long time as the british are and we are very similar to the irish i guess as far as we understand sovereignty in a completely different way we believe that sovereignty is not something to be hidden away from the light but sovereignty is something to be used to develop trade agreements to develop partnerships with our with our friends in europe similarly and i just give this as an example of how we think differently now from the post-brexit britain going global going global is a big thing for britain and i wish them every luck but for ireland going global is as a first step being part of the most extraordinary grouping of free democratic countries in the world it doesn't hinder in the slightest degree our desire to trade with china or india in fact it helps us as it used to help the united kingdom so i just say that if you are to illustrate that we we really have a different way of looking at the world and ireland has taken various steps towards psychological independence we won our independence a century ago but then joining the european union the break with sterling as a currency joining the euro these were all steps towards ireland's psychological independence but i think the biggest step has been brexit where ireland although were affected by brexit more than anyone and our farmers and our business people are affected we are i would say entirely unaffected by the brexit arguments even though we get the british media the british tabloids but the sort of arguments made by nigel farage driven initially for years by nigel farage they have zero impact in ireland and i'd like just finally to talk about the people-to-people thing this is really really important because one of the great richnesses of the british irish relationship is the number of irish people who have contributed to britain and to increasingly the british people who contribute in ireland in fact there's a a series on bbc four radio now on monday nights about the irish contribution to britain which it used to be said that earlier in the 20th century that the irish in britain nursed the sick built the roads and taught the children and that was true but now they run the i.t companies and write the plays i mean every aspect of life ireland has contributed but it works the other way too we have an increasing number of british people living in ireland in fact last year for the first time in history more people moved from britain to ireland than from ireland to britain despite the long history of immigration and those british people are coming to ireland to do every sort of job i come across them everywhere and they're extraordinarily welcome and because of our cultural closeness they blend in very well so that that people-to-people thing is something that will not be affected by brexit and will remain a fundamental building block in the british irish relationship we are also following this people-to-people relations because as everybody knows polls now are the biggest majority uh in the uk uh after enlargement uh more than one million people seven hundred thousand decided to stay they registered in the system and they are happy i mean they stay despite the brexit virginia from your opinion um what could be the consequence of brexit for the european union from our continental perspective um not only polish but generally speaking you know the union's perspective do you think this process this exit could bring us further into a deeper integration or on the other way around it will be an example of an exit that can we can repeat i think the brexit is there is a lesson for both sides for those who are skepticals because skeptics and for those who are your enthusiasts and but let me also add a few just a few words about what has been said already by by by mr ambassador because i absolutely believe that the unifi if i use the term unification i have in mind the unification of people this way brexit is wrong because brexit is more or less a danger for keeping these ties which have been developed in the last 20 years and this is dangerous also because like that some of the specialists in political sciences in ireland and britain speculated already that if there will be a so-called uh a strong border or hot border between ireland and northern ireland then it may be also the basis for the revitalization of any sort of the radical movements and this is something which is a danger a speculative fortunately only for for for the time being but still speculation that's why i think that if the unity is is the on the spot and if i'm using the word i have in mind the uh all of the aspects aspects of the unity between the people of the chance to exchange the views exchange the uh the commons exchange the the educational uh of young generations this is something which definitely is a basis for the chance to overcome all the negative consequences of brexit of brexit towards ireland northern ireland and also britain and i mean your excellency are absolutely right when you say that the people are uh right now for britain island they are quite friendly to one to each other to each other but on the other hand we have to bear in mind that brexit from this point of view is a very negative precedence in the contemporary international relations within the eu and that's why it has to be criticized and be taken as something which should not be repeated again and that's the question from our rajata yes uh i'm afraid that the brexit may have or may may be perceived as a sort of the encouragement from some of the uh secessionists like groups within the contemporary european states especially those states which are unsatisfied with the uh reached already level of the european unification as we know uh unfortunately in poland despite the fact that the political government is which is a right-wing government and which represents quite often sort of the skeptical approach towards eu and this special special uh approach is fortunately not supported by the majority of poles which is very well visible in terms of different poles and this is something which we have to bear in mind always whenever we talk about the polish presence within the eu but on the other hand we have to bear in mind that the european union is quite often perceived also by those who are the enthusiasts of the eu is the oligarch structure too much bureaucratic too much oriented into some some formalities of formal procedures that the european union is the entity which has to be alive which has to be very dynamic internally and which requires of course first of all the movement of people this is something which is unfortunate right now within the covered circumstances another danger and it also may uh cause some some skepticism about some of the societies especially those societies in which you may find quite strongly populist-like movements a populists like even governing parties which is the case of palette in hungary for instance and which definitely will not make the further process of the european unification an easy one i personally also do not know what might be the future uh future uh strategy for the european union development in order to avoid some of the criticism from those who are euro skeptical forces within the eu i think that it will require also a soft sort of the internal internal self-modification or internal distance from those who are at the moment because of people called kratos and as herocrats this is something which definitely will require some uh further steps in order to make european unions as the idea as a very dynamic and very revitalized in terms of the crisis which we are facing right now uh virginia it's mentioned that the polish society is very pro-european let me quote the recent opinion post which is 88 percent of the people are happy with being within the eu and um that's maybe paradox because the government in poland right now is much more euro skeptical um same situation as in hungary uh bobby you mentioned that also irish are very pro-europeans however i have to repeat this question to to you you were working in brussels for many years what would you expect what what is your perception of how brexit affects the european union and the mindset of of the not only the bureaucrats but also the european leaders i think europe benefited from the united kingdom's membership um you know europe today looks more like the united kingdom wanted than the french would have wanted 30 years ago enlarged to 27 now countries with an internal market no united states of europe the british diplomats were as good as any others arguably the best and the tragedy is that the only people who didn't understand britain's influence in europe were the british public because it wasn't explained to them over many decades so i regret very much that the uk and its pragmatism is no longer in the european union but in some ways uh europe is going to come out strongly from this because the public reaction to brexit has been very negative and parties that were skeptical uh i'm not an expert on polish politics but um initially for example uh uh where i was a buster the some of the parties that were skeptical have backed away from the idea of having a referendum on the euro or possibly wanting to leave the european union because people see brexit as being very damaging for the uk i know the uk and many of them don't see it like that but there's a pretty wide consensus outside but that is the case so i think in that way also the unity that the european union showed during the brexit negotiations was quite remarkable and i must pay tribute to the polish government as well as the other government for supporting irish concerns in relation to northern ireland in the beginning there was no inevitability that we would get the outcome that we did on the withdrawal agreement and on that and on other issues the 27 countries that were negotiating with the uk showed remarkable resilience and unity they started off with really only two red lines one was to preserve the single market and the other was to avoid a hard border on the island of ireland and beyond that the shape of the deal was largely dictated by the british government and the european union remained very solid and firm in that the european union in 2020 also got on with its agenda i mean it it it's pursuing uh the commission's two priorities of making a greener europe and the digital agenda where we saw just yesterday chancellor merkel taking a very clear stand on twitter uh in relation to trump and saying that it shouldn't be up to twitter to decide whether trump does or did not appear on twitter but that national governments or in the case of the european union the european union should legislate to just to to to avoid hate speech and incitement uh so these are priorities that the european union has been getting on with also um in the recovery uh package that it agreed it's it's raising its own uh borrowing for the first time so this is a very significant thing so look i'd be happier if the uk was still in but i'm pretty sure that the european union will remain strong i think the election of biden will be very important because biden is an admirer of the european union unlike his predecessor and biden also believes in multilateralism and i'd be pretty sure that biden you know will will prioritize his relationship with brussels and with the major players in the european union when it comes to relationships with you before i move to the question concerning the us i won't still ask you bobby about one thing because um there are many politicians um of the right-wing parties who say that this uk out changed the dynamics between the eu member states that we have really now a domination of germany who now is the strongest the biggest the largest economy the the biggest population and this country starts to dominate the european union using the fact even if the germans don't want it but this just happens that france economically speaking is weaker and the uk is out so uh some radical um right politician says that it's no more uh europe and germany but we are facing uh german europe what is the perception from your your side not only being a former diplomat but also also being irish so you know ireland is not the biggest country in europe of course but as you rightly said you see your sovereignty and your power much stronger within the european union um what do you think will happen with this fact well i i think this is the big country fallacy the idea that uh you know one big country can take all the decisions i mean the first thing to say is that germany doesn't take all of the decisions and the sort of uh way that the european commission pursues individual member states for infringements and breaking european law they they pursue the germans every bit as much as they do the other the other countries um the irish finance minister was elected to be uh president of the euro group some months ago uh and his election to that was opposed by if i recall france germany italy and spain so the idea that one big country or even the big countries together or a group of big countries together can can decide everything is simply not the case then you have to uh factor in the fact that germany has always been exceptionally receptive to the views of every country of the european union it's very open to ireland's views it always has been i know that because i've worked with them for decades um they're very sensitive to the position of of small countries and absolutely equal to middle size to large countries like poland i'm sure i'm sure is even more the case so then you also have to to take account of of the ethos of the european union the european union does not exist or operate on the basis that one or two small countries sit in a dark room and then come out and announce their verdict every day in brussels at every level political level ambassadorial level official level the 27 member states are sitting around the table negotiating shaping legislation deciding foreign policy and they're doing so in a very respectful way in which everyone's position is taken into account and the number of times ireland has been the european union now for what 48 years the number of times we've been outvoted by qualified majority voting is less than 10. in all those years i couldn't tell you how many times exactly because the way the european union works is that you don't just listen to everybody the small the middle size the large but you take account of it as well and if ireland has a reasonable point or if poland has a reasonable point this not just should be taken into account but is taken into account so for all those reasons i absolutely do don't buy the idea that germany is going to call all the jobs or dominate the new europe uh virginians to you uh i would have a question concerning also um the future developments uh between the uk and the us and taking into consideration that we have also an irish diaspora quite you know active we polish people are also um having a huge diaspora in the united states do you think these this plan of the uk of stepping into two legs one in europe let's say being still close as boris johnson always says that uk is a european country but in the same time building such a special relations with the us first but also with the commonwealth countries uh if i remember correctly 54 countries are in the commonwealth still how do you visualize the future of this plan first of all let me uh stop for a short file again for those issues of germany germany issue i understand absolutely position of the mr russell but i have to also underline that within the polish circumstances this special issue is much more controversial because of the history because of neighborhood because of the second world war and still germany is perceived not in so easy way like it might be perceived by irish uh i remember when when i analyzed the the natural policy of island during the second world war and some efforts from the from the nazi germany towards devalera and ira it still made a completely different picture and different story of the irish german relations then of course in case of polish german relations this way this is not equivalent and that the uh some of the uh fears or expectations negative expectations within the polish public opinion towards the german world is going to be still preserved in my mind despite the fact that germany wants to make a certain image as a country which is not ready of course to be a predominant one in the eu however this sort of this skepticism will be definitely much much stronger within the polish society than within the irish so this is my comment for these words which had ready as far as the role of the diaspora yes you're right well if you say imagine that diaspora is an issue for pulse and for irish but frankly speaking i wish has always been very much important as far as the involvement in the american policy is concerned having in mind the history let's bear in mind that the political involvement of ivish who did not have a capital but who were very much involved especially in the activities of the american democratic party it is an interesting evidence to what extent the people of the irish ancestry were involved for instance in the american party's political machines in large towns i also want to add that irish were always successful in the selection of some of the representatives within the american circumstances to become a lot made mayors of the large towns especially chicago or new york which has never been the chance for polls the one funny story from the 20s says that when there was a great competition between polish and irish diaspora in chicago which resulted finally in the election of the lord mayor of this town not very well known czech politician mr chermak who was the more or less a person acceptable for both large diasporas and in terms of the statistics there is about 40 to 45 44 millions of people of the irish ancestry in the united states and there's about 10 millions of polls in the united states which means that irish are much stronger as far as the influence on the american policy is concerned and it is also well visible in recent 30 to 40 years when some of the irish large and important politicians including especially ted kennedy were involved in the process of stabilization of the political troubles in the northern ireland this was the case oh it was interesting manifestation to what extent i was diaspora is strong within the american circumstances as far as the relations between the eu eu and united states definitely i i think that in case donald trump would become still present for the next four years these uh ties between the eu and usa will be much much weaker and it will be also the chance for those who were in favor of having britain outside the eu because those politicians like farage like even bobby johnson would be ready to uh be closer to the united states than to eu this is my presumption of course but we have joe biden now but whether joe biden and joe biden in my mind joy back joe biden is a intermediary person and being more more precise more sincere i would say that this politician who is going to start to begin with his presidential uh role within the united states is a person who will who will have also some other important duties to overcome some of the i wouldn't say conflict some problematic issues between the eu and united states during the trump epoch but he's also a person who is definitely who will be definitely involved in the uh perhaps the revitalization of the american presence in europe that is something which in my mind is absolutely inevitable and the last sentence from my side about that issue lies in the fact that i think that kamala harris will be the person who will be rising star within the next administration so mr ambassador you mentioned joe biden's influence the new administration will definitely have close relations with the european union and maybe a better understanding also the european union but what will be the british plan i mean what what is your expectation about the british american relations in the long run because this was one of the assumptions you know that the brits uh well still want to be close to the european union but they really go global they look globally and they base their future prosperity on this global scale and especially friendship with the us well britain is a big and important country and it has a long standing friendship with the united states and i'm sure that that will continue but i think it's true to say that most professional british diplomats would take the view that britain not being in the european union does not help them uh in terms of their influence in in washington for a long time not just because i'm saying it or because of an occasional article but the fundamental strategy of british foreign policy was to be an active influential member of the european union and to use that as a base for influence in the united states so i'm sure the relationship between britain and america will be close and will be friendly but i think the chances of london being prioritized over uh berlin and paris will have decreased somewhat i mean i'm not um celebrating that i'm not saying it's uh moving from white to black but i think most professional british supermans would would take that view i wish them i wish them well but what i would like to say is that it's a it's a false dichotomy to say that you know are people going to be involved in europe or involved in america or or with the commonwealth i mean you can do all of this germany exports vastly more to china than the united kingdom does and i don't celebrate that i just stated as a fact and they do that as a member of the european union and they will continue to do that as a member of the european union so europe for most of us for poland and for ireland is a way of going global it's a way of exercising into influence in the united states in the commonwealth and everywhere else um joe biden is not just irish but he's very irish almost every irish almost every american president visits his irish roots and we we've had reagan clinton bush obama and so on but biden um wears his irishness on his sleeve he's the most irish president since president kennedy and he's also catholic he's also a catholic um we've had there were many irish protestant presidents as well but uh but for example when biden appointed his new transportation secretary a couple of days ago in his public appearance at the podium to announce it he said my only problem with him is that he comes from galway rather than mayo from one county of ireland rather than another one so you know he really has it in his blood and um i i don't suggest you know ireland of course has huge access in washington and there's no country except perhaps israel that that that you know has the same impact for a small country in washington that will absolutely continue and and probably uh probably grow um i i don't suggest that we carry the overall if you like influence of a big country like like um the united kingdom but uh the vibin presidency will definitely give us uh an extra foothold and will be good for ireland and the fact that we're members of the european union will absolutely add to that because biden i'm not saying that he will approach his relationship to europe through ireland of course not i mean he has important countries like poland and france and germany to to do that uh and brussels of course and and van der ley but the cultural closeness between english-speaking countries is there so i would imagine that when every time he meets the irish prime minister and he could visit ireland quite soon they will talk about europe amongst other things and i would imagine he would have a sort of empathetic relaxed uh communication on european issues perhaps to a greater extent than than any other leader in europe so there's another example of where being in the european union is not an obstacle to going global it's absolutely um a necessary step for us and for any country really and i i must also at this moment i must ask you also about the security angle because the agreement reached at uh christmas eve actually we can even call it a christmas agreement like some journalists announced on the 24th of december it's not only about trade this is also a set of regulations between the uk and the eu concerning security cooperation of intelligence uh what what can you say as far as you know the thing which where is for example the polish people that the security issue was was there under donald trump we were not so you know comfortable as far as how nato was operating what would you expect as far as this in this triangle the eu uk and the us concerning security well i think we should distinguish between uh defense security and police security as it were in terms of defense and military security uh the british government decided that it did not want that to be dealt with in the agreement reached in december that was something that the european union regretted uh we we would have preferred some sort of agreement for arrangements that would involve cooperation in that area between britain and europe but even in the absence of such an agreement uh i'm sure that britain and the european union in that area will work very closely together both in nato where most of them are members um but also in terms of the eu's foreign policy uh and there's no reason to believe for example on iran uh britain is aligning itself with europe in terms of trying to re-establish uh the the the nuclear deal which which trump walked away from when it comes to sanctions against russia uh whenever that is necessary i'm sure it will work with with the european union um biden of course is much more into nato than trump was and he's if you like going to restore traditional american policy of absolute commitment to nato and that's very valuable for poland and for for for europe and i'm sure that britain will be absolutely a committed and an important partner uh both in nato and in relations with the european union in that area the question of police cooperation in the fight against crime there there has been some uh agreement in the december agreement but it doesn't replicate what was there already there are problems with real-time access for the united kingdom to the necessary databases there's a question of whether the eu will decide when it reaches a decision a unilateral decision on this whether it can pass the data to the united kingdom and so i'm sure that as in a lot of areas the london government and brussels and all its member states will work very very hard to maintain police cooperation but unfortunately it won't be at exactly the same level as before it will be important it will achieve things but it will not be as effective as it was last question would go to the net because unfortunately our time is almost over um you are also an expert on nationalism as a phenomenon and populist parties you you also do research on this subject i just want to ask you um is if you can predict you know the the future for the next decade within the european continent we still have places like you know catalonia we have scotland uh as we mentioned already in this discussion that it may be a will of doing another referendum now 55 percent of scots want a referendum and want independence that's the opinion polls recently published uh would you expect that the this populistic um force in the european continent will race or it will rather uh you know change into a let's say further mobilization towards a deeper integration and going back to the mainstream politics based on because of pandemic also would bring us brings us to the very rational choices but in the same time we have a lot of fake news and uh you know fear is completely fake about um everything about even vaccinations so do you think the europeans will go more rational or will go really towards further splits i mean whenever the any national interests are going to this spot it means they're not so much rational because quite often they are used as you said properly by the populistic-like movements but on the other hand there is also the history history shows us to what extent certain nations were colonized and the others were not so the issue comes if you ask about me about this question i think that this is still uh an important basis or sort of the ground for this sort of the movements also because of the fact that even within the eu let's say official ideology of this transnational organization there was a certain i wouldn't say sympathy but it was a sort of the constitutional approach towards some of the uh regionalistic or ethnologistic-like movements please bear in mind the fact that the european union was oriented and is the structure which is oriented on the let's say federalists like europe at least in some of the phases of the existence of this organization which means that the ethnologistic movements which were against the nation states in the existing shape they were called as something which might be included into the europe of 100 patients europe of 100 nations is one of the concepts of the future development of europe which is of course not the official ideology of the eu on the other hand the regionalism oriented onto the international basis together with the migratory process migration processes are remaining in my mind perhaps the two most important challenges for the internal cohesiveness or integrity of the european union we are having right now certain territories this is scotland this is catalonia this is basque country this is flanders in which you may find a great disagreement for the existing uh nation states in the current form which means this challenge is the real one it exists and it will be of course stronger if the economy of europe will be weaker so in my mind economy is the basis if economy is okay then those movements will be definitely less important if the process will be vice versa then those movements will be revitalized again and especially because of the fact that there are very many historical grievances of the smaller nations towards large nations this is the issue of the catalans against spaniards this is the issue of scots against english this is something which i think is still a sort of the basis for the certain troubles which may become and which may be visible in the future of europe uh gentlemen thank you very much for your time uh well in front of us a very interesting but difficult decade for the european union for sure but uh let's hope pandemic is something which is very bad but it's much better than a war so maybe we'll find out the way for the new century to reorganize ourselves within the european union because this concept worked quite well for all of us uh thank you very much for your time bobby mcdonough um thank you bobby and vavjaniet konarski professor varjuniskonowski thank you very much foreigners thank you and i hope uh we will see you again every tuesday five o'clock polish time at our facebook profile center for international relations thank you goodbye