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so welcome everybody to the June 23rd 2020 analytics weekly we have a couple of my eyes on the board one of them is about a pulse survey that we're doing which I think most of you have probably seen if you haven't please check your email so first first thing here is the walkthrough of the board so share my screen here let's see oh sorry forgot to apply the mouse down so we have now kicked off 13-2 and here's what our board is looking like so actually this one is a great one to get an update on if Adam if you want to let us know what's going on with that just because we I believe already got a little bit of a head start on it and 13:1 at the same time again because I guess it wasn't holiday I don't know should be merged about the fronton I'm I'm not sure as far as I know he's behind the future flag so we can enable it as soon as it's about all yeah on the front end I believe is secure is wrapping up one or two pending mrs I think Brandon's already reviewing one so I'm expecting them to the redo to be finalists in the next one or two days but Brandon correct me if I'm wrong okay guess Brent's not mostly here yet or you're just not wrong cool okay that sounds great actually that'll be nice to get that knocked out early in 13 to hear cool so moving over here to this issue's chart with the single series and i think we have some implementation issues here that one is just to the M our chart is really the first one and I have not in 13 to put all the peel ables on the issues yet so that's why it's not showing up in the column I'll go back and fix that today I actually did fix that for the 13-3 plan but I need it I need to fix it for the 13 to one okay so I just pulled it up which priority label would you like aren't p2i I probably won't be using P you know one until we start getting things that are like super hot right so most things will be super or will be P two three and four cool okay and Brandon I don't know if you do want to give us an update on this one you know we're at the beginning of the milestone and I know this is a big issue but if you do have anything I'm sure we'd love to hear it actually I just got on the call been having a bit of audio problems in my child single series so I've been working above the controller and roots just to start on the skeleton application and I'm going to look at adding the chart under their watch if there's anything really important updates on I mean we're gonna need a back-end API in order to retrieve data on the front end so we're just going to be adding the single charge of the single cheerio series cool and you feel like execution is going pretty smooth so far so far it's been quite interesting I've been playing around in Ruby I can try to working with some help from Adams that's been pretty good but execution should be fine I'll have much better fit next week cool awesome should we just update the air Brook flow label so that one's probably either ready for development or already in development yes I haven't started the development on that one specifically yet I thought I could probably change threading development done cool okay and because the issues chart work is kind of based on the work we're doing for NMR's chart I think that's why it's not assigned here anybody please correct me if I'm wrong on that right and then we have embeddable charts which Michael looks like that one's yours same thing I don't know if you have an update just because it's so early in 13 to here but if you do have an update I'm sure we'd love to hear yeah sure I've started looking into it and I am currently so there's been a large discussion on the issue so if you're interested you can dive into that I'm currently extending a breakdown that Martin put together that highlighted the general workflow of it and going into a little bit more detail and I'm gonna be creating tickets for this I just haven't gone about it yet because I kind of want to get the full picture before creating them but I expect to have them done before - I leave today so that should give you hopefully some more detail I might also add a few more questions clarifying questions on there that might add to the discussion before I start development on it cool okay so do you feel like the workflow design label is accurate right now yeah I feel like that's accurate I will change it to ready for development as soon as we can agree on the breakdown but I think up until now we are in agreement I just have a few more outstanding questions that I'm looking for answers to just to make sure that we're on the same page cool sounds good Michael just stuff are any of those for me are they primarily technical concerns at this point primarily technical concerns at this point I think I got what I need from you thank you for being responsive both you and I might have some questions for you Adam if you are available but I'll I'll just post in that issue or some issues when they come up so Michael looks like you're up again here because the next thing is in the p4 column this optimized page loading which I see is blocked here yep do we need to get the blocker onto the board just to get that knocked out so you can take care of this one I I don't know why it doesn't show up I probably am missing to add a label on to it perhaps I thought I had added the right labels to it I already implemented and there's an outstanding mr for that subtext that's it it's something that's going to require a little bit of review because it's a general tart chart loader it's not really like a huge thing the functionality is in there but we want to before we close this issue we want to make sure that the design is followed completely and this sub tickets is kind of blocking that that that general chart loader is blocking that so until that's myrrh which I cannot put up the EMR to actually use that that charge loader but I already have the implementation of using that chart loader and it's a really small MRR so I expect that to go pretty quickly as soon as the the blocking ticket MMR is merged awesome something along the way then yeah I think so um but correct me if I'm wrong about the labeling there I'm not entirely sure why it doesn't show up here if I need to add something specific to yeah I think maybe if there's if that other mr was executed under a separate issue that issue probably just doesn't have a priority label on it right now which is I don't think that's a big deal I mean you're you've got it under way gotcha John Mason was there other you you were saying you hadn't necessarily applied priority labels to all the issues in 13 - was there more you wanted to cover that we're not seeing here the only other one of the big ones it has to do with the VSA creating new VSAs and switching them yeah I think they don't have a priority label they have they should show up in the ready for development column I believe yeah so this one looks like we have in a couple of different places so we've got Ezekiel on front end and actually Magda have you have you already started this maybe it's already further along Omega I think you're on mute sorry yeah I'll look at it I didn't like start on development because I don't I understand some things boiling will help me just after this meeting so I can change it to in dev cool that sounds good I'm sure Ezequiel on the front end is probably just getting rolling as well yeah I'll be happy to after the meeting clean up the party labels cool all right well I think that wraps us up with walking the board John Mason I'll hand it over to you for next step you John Mason I don't know if you're talking we can hear you okay there we go we've had some conversation about our issues having tons and tons of comments on them and four it seems seeming to take a long time to kind of get through that the grooming process and so on and one idea that I have to expedite that and also to help with moving planning along is to adjust our approach to doing the estimation so the first part of that idea is to make a specific plan about which items were going to estimate on a weekly basis just so that we make sure we we get through enough of them and we're not planning sort of all at the last minute and then have a really quick pass that says hey this is not ready for estimation the proposal isn't clear you know john mason you've got work to do and then if you know once we've got a clear proposal focus the conversation initially on what do we need to know in order to know how big this is you know from my perspective and estimation isn't it's not a commitment it's just a best-guess that helps us know whether things are gonna fit into our release or not and the sooner we have an idea about that the easier it is for me to begin communicating to others and to make plans about other stories and so on and then I think that the conversation can then transition to all those deep dive topics whereas today kind of what I what I see happening is that we'll we'll pick up a thread of one topic and we'll go very deep on that topic and eventually we come back for up for air and we discover something else and then we go deep on that topic and so on but if we just kept the conversation the first part of the conversation just really focused on well how big this is how big do we think this is best guess we can have a really focused conversation and then once we know what the estimate is that all the kind of technical implementation you know we can figure out the second pass so that's that's the gist of this proposal here and I have started a 13-3 planning issue that sort of reflects this approach but I really am interested in your opinion as to as to what you think about this so 13-3 I know we're just starting 13-2 it seems crazy to be thinking about thirteen three but actually you know according to the dates we're supposed to have final planning done July 9 which is really just a few weeks away so what I've done is created a section and a 13-3 planning issue that lists all the issues here they should all have pretty succinct proposals you know at this point you know for example this one about multiple series simple problem a few bullet points on the proposal a picture and so on so and then what we could do is just slot those issues take a quick pass and say okay well which ones do we want to try to get estimated this week and then which ones the week after and so on we can the ones that we think hey this might take longer there may be a lot of conversation we can move them you know further down but things that we think would be pretty quick to figure out what the sizes we can put in a nearer week and I've listed them 413 3 here in priority order and so what do you think what do you think about the idea of trying to take sort of a first pass focus on splitting issues into smaller issues you know right sizing and then sort of planning which ones were going to estimate so John Mason justice um is this the ideas basically you ask engineers to come in to specific issues and give a rough estimate of the weight just based on the initial proposal and then you know schedule it into a milestone apply the workflow scheduling label and that's kind of what tells us okay this needs to finish refinement you know engineering needs to finish refinement you know apply the final weight estimate and then it moves into ready for development that's that's my understanding of that right that's right just focusing on sort of the big the big questions that would have a big impact on the size at first and you know questions for me so my question is just for my own edification the the problem that we're trying to solve here is coming up with some process where we're continually doing estimation on a week-to-week basis instead of kind of this large sprint when we get into the our planning process for the next milestone every month is that in summary what we're trying to achieve here yeah that's a big part of it for me you know when we get towards the end of our release everybody's busy trying to finish up mr s for that release it puts a lot of pressure to have everything ready for kickoff and so on if we're kind of scrambling last-minute but if we can plan on a rolling basis and I think it'll take a lot of pressure off that sort of final weeks of planning like about this approach is that it could help us in the long run with doing a better planning especially if we take the amount of weight into account that we managed to deliver in previous milestones so if we would have like a couple of items already estimated with like a base or an initial number then this could definitely help us in doing the next milestones were planning in terms of when when we take capacity into account and the number of quality that the sum of weight that we delivered in the previous milestones I don't questions I mean I like it I like the idea - I'm not my question would be for the engineering department which would be is this the I I don't I don't know see individuals assigned here so I guess that we would be just trusting either EMS or individuals to just kind of take a look at this list and then kind of take that estimation work on also this this list here that we see isn't attached to like actual status of the issue so someone goes and estimates half of the lists half the list then someone else comes along and then it takes look and they're like oh so it was already estimated these things so you know my only quite again I'd be interested in the engineering departments thoughts here but you know maybe we can just do like a Kanban approach here we have like a list elite do a label like use the we use the estimation needed label for a while and then relied on individuals to refine and then pull those into either ready for development or you know workflow breakdown if or information is kind of needed for product so maybe I'm not sure if we can start there but maybe the problem that we're trying to solve is we want to create a workflow that gets us doing refinement all the time as opposed to in a big spike which i think is definitely worth doing so I think we need to start using the estimation needed label again just because you know not all issues in scheduling are going to be needing final refinement so there's that I'm a little bit worried that if we don't have something like that there's going to be some risk of slippage here you know just in terms of we start a milestone and then realize oh we need to finish for finding this thing and that eats up you know another five days which is basically you know the first week of the milestone and then things slip so just for context here for those who haven't been on the analytics team you know for for its full lifetime you know since starting last year we had kind of an issue you know we basically ran into this issue of things slipping because they weren't refined kind of in the beginning so we shifted our process to invest more in refinement upfront to like have a more solid estimate upfront before we started execution you know before we even committed to anything in the milestone so that's that's why the process is the way it is right now I definitely see how that can be a little bit rigid sometimes so it seems like maybe this is about you know shifting back and having a little bit more of a middle ground you know I my thinking is it's an experiment let's try it out you know I see how planning has been complicated by not having estimates sort of early enough so you know the the rough estimate and then finish refinement and do a final estimate as long as we still try to finish the refinement before the milestone starts I think that can work I think we just need to make sure that we incorporate it into our daily routine or into our weekly routine so engineers are aware of hey we wanna like part of my my weekly schedule is to give an estimate on the area that that I'm the owner after that I'm working on will I know what I'm like myself I think I would prefer to know like which issues out me too I should like refine which I understood is like ask the question if I don't understand and write the estimation right yes yes okay so yeah I would like to have like few of them that like I know that I'm responsible for because I think that then even if I ask other people questions I know that this is like my job and to do it to a certain time and I suggest that we you know we sort of take a pass through here and pick you know weeks and people for each of of them and so people sort of know which ones they're responsible for and we could do that on a week to week basis or we could do it all up front but that I think would create a lot of clarity and to the point about issue labels and keeping track of things I did go through and I cleaned up all of the next up labels so the next up labels ought to match what's here pretty closely with very few exceptions and I also assigned everything to estimated needed that doesn't have an estimate yet and and I created this analytics planning prep board that has the filters next up and analytics and so on which might might help us as well we don't have to use this board we could do it some other way but I I haven't been using issue labels you know very carefully and I recognized that that could be a pain for other people so I'm trying to be more clear about things and in the issue labels I haven't been here for like what was there before I definitely like this approach it seems to me to be Li lack of better word leaning up against a lean [Music] mythology and I think that I've tried to do something like that before and I think that works really well yeah there does seem to be like some concern at least for me also on getting like having to monitor a page or something to to go back and remind myself that I need to do estimates there's a bunch of different ways we could solve this but I could see that as a bit pitfall perhaps like weekly noted like a message like we do with I can remember the weekly reports engineering reports I can't remember the exact name of that but but do something similar to like a reminder go go and do some estimates that could be an initial pass but I could see it be a pitfall that that we would forget otherwise something like a triage report or just behind randomly or something I mean there's a bunch of different ways that we can go about this assigned to stuff and like kind of fiddling around on me if I cannot do something because I don't have your context and maybe I can pass it on and trade with somebody else I think for me personally it would be easier to can have it in my list of issues that I have to work on and then I can remember better yeah Magda I think that's right I think either self assignment or EMS assigning people or probably more likely with our group just a combination of both as it's convenient to just make sure it's clear kind of who's responsible for what I think just earlier issue assignment would be another feature you know - of this process change I'm just taking a look at the agenda here to see how much more time we have for this conversation because I think it would be really cool if well do do you do we want to take a crack at doing some initial sort of assignment of these things right now on the call or do we want to do that after the call I wasn't just offline oh yeah yeah okay great let's do that just just a quick reminder about the dates this is this is June 23 and we already have a number of items estimated next week we have Tuesday June 30th we have our regular weekly meeting and then pre-planning is already on July 2nd which is just that same week on Thursday and then final planning on on Thursday so the planning comes up a lot faster I'm always surprised by how fast it comes up and hopefully we can get a little bit ahead of it and so so I would recommend if we're gonna do this that we we try to to pick some issues tomorrow for our first week so John Mason do you want to like maybe just follow our practice of paying us in the planning issue you know maybe you can ping the whole group or you can just think Martin and I and and we can figure it out whenever you have added more items to one of these estimation sections do you do you want to just do it that way or did you have another way in mind oh okay so I was assuming that you guys would want to make the decision about which ones you thought we would have estimated by next week rather than me if you want me to just do a best yes I can do it that way too I mean I'm thinking we should go in your priority order yeah this is the priority order is here but some of these might might seem oh this is so big I may not feel like I'm able to estimate it in one week or maybe not I mean the approach the idea is to try to do it with less information so if if we're comfortable with that we could just yeah I think just to make sure we don't end up with anything like hanging out at the end for some reason that you would like to have estimated earlier on I I think it makes sense to have you tell us what or you'd like to approach things personally okay great well the orders are is up there I can start moving things into into this next week huh what is the right number what do you mean by number how many items would you like me to move from the top section into the next for the next week there's 14 in total so one two three four so it seems like three per week and we train backends but I don't know like so this estimation back-end and front-end so a quarter of the list each week I was thinking the same thing like that one issue per person per back-end and I guess that depends on the issue right like some of the issues might need further break down into front-end and back-end some probably are just front-end or back-end I guess that depends but yeah let's just do like three per week for now yes it's a good idea so Martin you just reminded me of something else here if if we assign an engineer on one of these things it may not have been split into implementation issues yet I'm wondering would we want the initial assignee to come in for the rough estimate and go ahead and break it out and estimate each of those or do we just want to do like an extremely rough high-level estimate on the parent issue that's a good question my my gut feeling tells me giving a rough rough estimate on something that requires both back and front and some time it's really hard for a front-end engineer to give it even a rough estimate on the backend because we don't really know what implication is or if it's got to be like it performance everything or so I'd rather have it the parent issue being split up into separate issues and then have the dedicated engineer own we estimate the relevant portion extending what Magdala has said a little bit earlier I think it would make sense just like again assign somebody and then if they feel like they need somebody else's second opinion they can co assign them and then do an estimate together or like split it up into two tickets if they feel like that's necessary but just to make it as easy as possible maybe just assigning one person and then mm just pull in the people that's necessary from there and let that person be the driver essentially I think the co assignments a great idea and actually I think this probably falls on engineering managers shoulders when you know when we try to assign you know anything that isn't self assigned by somebody will come in make sure it gets an assignee and probably at that time try to split it out into the implementation issues and yeah okay either way I could see work I'm sure we'll have some stumbles as we make adjustments and but we can keep reviewing it and course correct it seems like we have a lot to go through still and we only have five minutes left three minutes should we move on alright let's see who's next year so I think we're down to Nick items from Nick Nick I haven't left you much time yes there's no point in in representing all that much stuff however I will point you towards the the message I left NRG manage analytics slack channel and if you can provide feedback on on the little post that I put in our slack channel I think that should suffice it's a little prototype still let me know let me know what you think of it and click on the issues that I posted there and they're pretty self-explanatory and take a look but that's it I'll pass it over Martin yeah only have a small like an FYI I'm just sharing what the manage input group has implemented so they they launched a first experiment I'll link the the guidelines in our agenda duct and that's probably something that we should keep an eye on in in the future if we if we ever want to implement some sort of ap a be testing for some of our analytics features since we talked about this recently multi multiple times so check out the experiment guide if you're interested in it and then whenever we have something that we want to a be test let's consider implementing there's an experiment you you think that's it cool well thanks every for the great discussion especially on that process issue that'll be that'll be a fun experiment for us to try to make planning a little bit simpler for everybody so thanks all for joining and I hope you have a great rest of your week