Fax Caller Mark with airSlate SignNow

Fax caller mark

i'm skeptical why you actually don't believe in a god skeptical yes i i don't see how you can actually not believe in a god i don't understand so you think we're lying if we say we don't believe in a god i don't think you're lying i just don't i'm wondering how you arrived at that position not being convinced of the existence of a deity basically yeah at this current point in time that's kind of the longest short of it okay so um you guys mentioned that um you know you don't really believe uh i'm going to be careful i say this in sort of some kind of purpose or that um so things don't really um you know um there's no such thing as meaning and i i don't really understand how how one could arrive at that conclusion i don't i feel like okay so i remember this conversation last week and i remember you would say things like atheists don't believe in meaning and i would say that's not what i said yeah and i'm like i feel like i i mean i feel like you're astounded at a position that i don't actually have although so yeah but it was um richard dawkins says something like don't ask why questions is you're actually asking how well i i cannot see richard dawkins saying that well um yeah he's definitely said that but okay okay um another point of mine i mean i've read a lot of dawkins and that sounds at odds with the kind of things that i have heard him say and maybe he said that in a specific narrow context but i mean sure so so my next point is um i don't firstly i don't understand why science um actually people use science to prove god or say that um science is one day going to prove god or science disproves god i find that completely um i think that actually science is just one tool of uh um it's it's it's a tool to to explain how things work but i don't think it it has in any relation to religion at all um well i agree with that yeah so um but but i don't think that says much for religion because i think that when something is scientifically investigated it's done uh with a perp the purpose of you don't know whether something's true or not so you're going to find a way to settle the question and i think you're right that religion has nothing to do with science but only in the sense that religion sets itself up to where it can't be investigated or analyzed or or uh demonstrated to be true or false and my conclusion from that is uh it's not useful and probably not true just me i'm not going to go into the whole debate of how can you be certain that what you know is what you know and whatever but i'm going to say that feel free if you want what are the chances that you know signed um religion or christianity is um is false or is is not um relevant uh christianity is a pretty broad topic you want to give me something specific and we can talk about whether it's true or false so i'm just trying to get to like how you arrived at being an atheist because if you seem to not be convinced by the two thousand years or would you know about over a thousand pages of text of things that were written that happened you know there is a lot of text in the world that's right that was written a long time ago that i don't believe and i'm be willing to bet that there's a lot of text you don't believe either so so let's talk about the young earth right what um so you don't believe the date that the earth was made in seven days oh definitely not okay but i mean okay from from a scientific point of view i can completely understand your position however um but um i'm skeptical how science actually can demonstrate that that that is the case should we go into the evidence for an old earth or is this getting off topic i mean let's go into the younger thing well i mean um see you have this very particular belief which you know is completely at odds with science and i'm just wondering if you have uh ever uh picked up a book that was written from the point of view of talking about the age of the earth or the age of the universe as opposed to just reading arguments against it because i've read the bible and i've read a number of books by professional apologists so i'm curious if you have picked up any uh books that try to explain science to uh a lay person because to be frank this show the rest of this show is not going to be enough for me to go over everything although i can give you a quick overview if you want sure you do what yeah okay i mean well i mean my question is i'm just trying to get you um so the whole reason of how you arrived at being an atheist and obviously my position is that is that i mean the younger story okay seven days yeah it doesn't seem like that could you know big bang theory says it was over a number of billions of years it happened but you you know if you're just asking how i arrived at the conclusion of atheism that has almost nothing to do with how old i think the earth is i mean like that is an interesting background fact but it's not what led me to atheism so so i've looked into the actual facts for the young earth i'm gonna assume you mean professional uh christian uh arguments into the science of of how actually by whom sorry what sources did you learn that from i would spread on wikipedia on how actually great radio carbon dating works okay um i guess that's a start and i mean um i mean in order to add the actual dating process um uh it uses um the fact that um there's radio carbon decay and so for so on that every so many years right roughly right with the recognition that uh there is a certain distance limit beyond which specific kinds of radiocarbon dating aren't useful which is why the age of the earth isn't determined through radiocarbon dating it it's just the age of specific uh things that are dug up right well i mean that's how specifically they yeah they they date things and and that's that's how they date specific certain kinds of things yes so based on that data alone uh it's not sufficient for me to believe that the girth was not made in seven days uh do you know how the age of the universe was calculated um because it sure wasn't through radiocarbon dating yeah i'm aware of that i'm talking about the fact that how the fact that um yeah something is seven billion years old or something like that um there's no actual physical proof or evidence to suggest that it's just based on mathematical calculations which i'm not trying to dismiss right but um well how can i remember talking about the big bang either i'm just talking about um you know when they date you know the fact even evolution you know the fact that they say that we did how they date fossils and stuff like that i'm not convinced by the science actually i've looked into the science and i've read about um the uh i said the cumbrian explosion whatever i've read all about that um okay on wikipedia i've read i've read about the topics on it and what led you to the conclusion that it was like six to ten thousand years old or whatever you believe well just this lack of evidence um no no no no i mean what led you to how old do you think the earth is well um i go by the bible narrative okay why because um it for me makes sense um okay so pardon me for saying so but it feels like your standards are a little lower when it comes to the bible than to uh trying to understand uh the science because if i had just answered your question about how did you decide that the earth was billions of euro years old by saying well it just feels right to me i think you would jump all over me for that right make that point because my source of of of belief does verb or my my standpoint doesn't come from purely a scientific base it comes from a uh just a common sense point because wow so let me explain my position right because the bible for me uh explains the um existence or the the the point it explains life in the best in the best possible way science doesn't provide that it's in the best possible way so let me explain why i think that there was one thing uh so um into the bible that explained that there was a tree of good and evil uh-huh good and bad whatever tree of knowledge and then there was a talking snake right in the serpent and that's total common sense that everybody has no problem my point is that yes this knowledge also we didn't know anything about knowledge from the tree and then we became aware which means we have knowledge we gained the ability to have knowledge right and that's a bad thing that's it was a bad thing because now you know this is precisely my point knowing too much can bring can can lead to meaningless okay because knowledge is infinite so you can never know everything so it's it's it's like you might find out something about the beginning of the earth so why were you researching at all if that's the case it's it's an infinite regression of of knowledge so there's always metal knowledge over metal knowledge of it and it never stops so it it becomes meaningless so for me my knowledge is meaningless and is you're saying a couple of things which don't seem to hang together one of which is that you've done extensive research into uh the scientific background of things like radio carbon dating but at the same time you're saying that uh knowledge is meaningless and that your preferred position for safety is one of carefully curated ignorance i mean am i being unfair when i say that carefully i'm not sure exactly how you i mean you're saying that it's not good to know too much but you're also saying that you thoroughly understand this science and reject it due to what you are referring to as common sense i don't know but you also accept the talking snake i don't need to start to dismiss science or thoroughly to understand something in order to dismiss it okay i understand it enough to dismiss it okay do you think you understand enough a talking snake um well yeah why can't why not it's good like i said your standards for that seem a little bit lower but i mean i if you told me 2000 years ago that that this big bang happened and i would also probably laugh at you and think well you're ignorant and because i would just say why not sure give the most convincing thing well good for you so so there you go then so at least you both understand that you know things no no no no what don't you understand now um not to understand sorry a single point it's just it's entry like your standards of evidence like going back to the the talking surface and that you accept that because well why not you know it's god and that's i mean a very interesting way of uh coming to grips with knowledge by the same token you said knowledge was knowledge was meaningless and that so getting too much of it just leads to an infinite regress and so it's meaningless but you obtained enough knowledge of the science to be unconvinced of that science and kind of retreat back to the book that you it's just it's a very interesting thought process of arriving very selective thinking the truth is know that thought process because it you will arrive at some interesting conclusions what did you say that last bit again i didn't okay proposing this this thought process because it will actually ensure that you arrive at some very interesting conclusions well interesting conclusions and correct conclusions are not necessarily the same thing sure and i'm just uh i i'm just wondering in your mind is the state of knowing or understanding something entirely dependent on uh the things that you just arbitrarily choose to believe uh or is there or do you care about uh figuring out the distinction between made-up stuff and uh and true factual stuff and do you use this method in other words for things in your life as well to judge what's true or not if you met a guy who who was uh let's say uh a buddhist monk or or a mormon let's say who made these specific claims that uh joseph smith found some golden tablets and and uh you know they were from ancient jews who traveled to america um you don't believe that right well no because that wasn't written but that doesn't have a substantial history so the bible has no what years of of writing okay but there are other things that have substantial histories that all you also don't believe right like what zeus or uh odin like like those have substantial histories right um chinese ancestral warships how long were those written dragons in chinese some a lot of them are older than the bible seriously right well that talks about one specific thing okay i'm just trying to figure out your standard of how you decide what to believe or not believe because it seems like you've just latched on to a particular source and said this is right but don't have a reason for choosing that one over chinese mythology i mean i'm really confused by the word standard i mean well wow why is there a definition obviously i mean um not everyone has the same perspective in life right i think i think i think that's where it comes down to perspective on how you view the world right but you the evidence that you that you see because i mean a scientific fact can be you know there can be a scientific finding but how you perceive that finding is actually determines is it determined by the person how you know okay but it sounds like yeah even if i've received that my bank account has a million dollars that won't change the reality that that is not what is currently in there well you're in luckville because when i wave my hands like this you will have a million dollars in your bank account right and so you can just believe me we can do some scientific testing well science science isn't reliable so even if you look at your bank account on the website and it says you only have 17 i'm telling you you have a million dollars and my common sense tells me that it's true got it right the next point will explain this how do you the million pound in your bank account is what i'm trying to get at no why the fact that you had yes you will have a million pounds in your bank account but how do you view that million pounds and how you view that many penalty time is what you'll probably do with it so i'm not talking about you okay the fact is the knowledge but the decision is this it comes from perspective how do what do i do with this fact and that's where perspective comes into it but shouldn't you establish the fact first that's that's regardless of the point the fact that well i mean i kind of think that is the point no my my point is how do you view the fact how do you view can you make sure that i don't know what your question is know okay so perspective is about you it's about having a specific understanding of something over of reality whatever you want to call it uh-huh so that's my point is that yes there is knowledge yes there are facts but how do you perceive those facts and that's what i'm trying to get at and that's how you arrive at your different world um okay so being an atheist or a christian so can you make yourself believe right now that that i just put a million dollars in phil's bank account by waving your hand well i bet that that doesn't matter what do you mean it doesn't matter i think i think that's the whole thing we're talking about regardless of whether there is a bank account or not or there's a million pounds in or not whether i be okay i see your point now um well okay you okay look at it more as a puzzle you have to put the pieces of the puzzle together but in order to do that you have to look at it from a diff from a specific perspective in order to understand what you're looking at and once you do that then you arrive at different conclusions that's how everyone no could i take this puzzle and just uh uh i don't know uh grind it up to into a pulp and and shove them into uh like i don't know between the tiles in my bathroom and and say hey i've solved the puzzle and it's a unicorn right this goes into kind of information theory you know like there's um well but but i mean would you agree that i've solved the puzzle and seen and seen the thing that uh the puzzle was or would you think wait a minute that doesn't seem to be the way that uh the puzzle works right well and that's precisely my point it's about perspective how do you you didn't answer that question you just said that's precisely my point but you didn't answer the question what was the question sorry do you think that's like do you think that's a reasonable way of approaching a jigsaw puzzle or do you think that somebody who does that should probably pick up a different hobby um i missed the point story yes my point is if you understand the information theory um i'm aware of information theory there's noise and then there's um the opposite of noise which is meaning whatever so what i'm trying to say is that we need to find the we need to find the meaning in the noise and the okay random the noise so what's your strategy for determining true from false things or would you say that that's not even a meaningful distinction that it's whatever your perspective is is is right for you no i think perspective is is is is how you approach okay finding meaning so if i say i don't think there's a god would you would you just accept that i'm right from my perspective or is there more to it well there's definitely more to it because that's one way of looking at it but there's another way of looking at it as well well yeah okay so i'm granting there's another way of looking at it but uh you're trying to tell me that everything is about perspective so you have to agree that uh that uh from my perspective there's no god i can completely understand your perspective and i don't understand it that's why i'm trying to discuss because my perspective i see something completely different okay and so you're just uh saying that in these frames uh different things are true for different people and there's no way to resolve or come together on the distinction well it definitely is but um there is there is what is it i wish you'd tell me uh although i'm i'm uh probably gonna wrap up this call pretty soon what what is your strategy for uh bringing two different perspectives together and resolving which one is true looking at your perspective um you're saying that well it's essentially there's no purpose and that's is for me the big question mark and i think also that your basis is on knowledge and uh knowledge is infinite and that's not sufficient knowledge is not infinite that doesn't make any sense it well yeah you don't even understand the premise of my arguments okay well i'm sorry uh maybe try again next week and and communicate it a little better uh i'm gonna put you back on hold and uh one of the call screeners will uh pick you back up and then we'll let you go thanks for calling again thanks cheers all right