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now I'd like to introduce you to today's featured speaker Dave R Kerr is the vice chairman and prophet and professor emeritus of the Berkeley Haas School of Business he was recently named to the New York American Marketing Association's marketing Hall of Fame he has over 100 articles and 17 books that have sold well over a million copies and include aqua on branding and his latest book creating signatures stories and that's what Dave will be sharing with us today so today we're really pleased to have you take it away okay thanks glad to be here I'm having trouble getting this thing up but that I had running perfectly a few minutes ago it's asking me for a conference phone number and access code and login and so if you've got any quick suggestions otherwise we'll just let you learn the slide yes you should be looking for a separate window with the green icon so probably not the one you're looking at right now all right you can look on the bottom of your computer and look for a green icon it's probably in a separate window it's conference controls and says show chat modifications yeah I think I got it that was that was terrific all right good good anyway I'm glad to be here I'm a long term admirer and supporter of MSI you know brings academia to real problems that it helps firms influence research and and get access to cutting-edge research it's just it's just such a win-win so anyway I'm pleased to be here at this webinar and this is the one I'm going to be talking about my concepts around signature stories and in the book creating signature stories let me start out by why I wrote the book in the first place one reason is that the importance of strategic messaging internally and externally has never greater and the employees are looking for a meaning in their professional life and and customers at least a good portion of them are looking for relationships that go beyond functional benefits and to to get there you really need to communicate things like organizational values and value propositions and brand visions and and second of all it's it's so difficult to break through the clutter now and you you couple the media clutter with with disinterested audience members I mean whether they're employees their customers they really don't care about your brand you're offering your firm they just they care about other things and even if they get a message through to them they're very skeptical they're there they counter argue and so in the face of those two challenges we have the power of stories it's uh it's it's nothing short of phenomenal you know if you if you compare stories to facts which is the efficient way to communicate stories are better at attacking attention changing perceptions persuading and spidery and energizing and I'm not talking about twenty percent better I'm talking about 200% better 300% better it's just it's just astounding when you look at the data and the research studies that have done in in psychology communications and marketing so into this context I developed a concept of a signature story and there's really three elements to a signature story its first of all a bottle once about a time account of an event or an expertise it is not a set of facts and for a long time I wrestled with the help of my daughter Jennifer to try to figure out what is not a story because people would say what is your brand story and they give you a bull for a list of five facts well that's not a signature story that's not the kind of story we're talking about second it it intrigues and involves the such a level it just breaks out of the clutter and the disinterest as is a wall factor now this wall factor can come from many different sources that can come from being entertaining unusual informative it can come from having an emotional connection it can come from an intriguing plot or characters there's no checklist of things that the more checks the better the story that's not the way it works you just have to have a story that talks on some dimension three it has to have an authentic strategic message that's that's implied and to be authentic is really important and here's my dashing definition of authenticity if the audience member it has in his mind concepts like phony contrived felony then it's not authentic doesn't have to be real but I can't engender those kinds of thoughts so what I want to do next is to look at five signature stories and in doing so try to illustrate the power of signature stories how they work and some of the challenges in in developing them first seeing that your stories can help you deliver self-expressive or social music benefits and let me tell you the story of the u.s. School of Music it's it's quite amazing there was a copywriter by the name of John cables who in 1929 he was only one year on the job but he's asked to create an ad for a correspondence course and and this print ad is is almost always in the con verse Asian if you ask what are the top five or ten print ads ever made it the headline says at all they laughed when I sat down at the piano and in the copy you see things like somebody muttering to the other can he really play oh heavens no he's just up to his old tricks so there's a lot of sort of scorn and ridicule but when I started to play then you see this a guy and you you read about how he gets really into the list concerto is playing and how the ridicule turned to applause so if you compare this to a normal fact-based ad us gloom is saying you know no teacher needed well duh and you will be a terrific player and be admired well yeah sure of course let me make another comment about the the they ad and that is how how vivid it is if you look at the detail there's a very long printout and one point it says with mock dignity I drew out a silk handkerchief and lightly dusted off the keys and I rose and gave the revolving panel school a quarter of a turn so he presented the are up being a concert pianist at this party and you see that with with such detail that you can just manage it vivid detail can help you create a you know you can draw you in make you more involved because you can put your you can picture what's actually going on but also as you leave things out that can also draw people in because then it allows the audience to fill in the gaps there was a famous sticks word story told by Ernest Hemingway for sale baby shoes never worn you can kind of picture the mother that lost her maybe you can picture they the new mother that's going to put those shoes on a on a cute little baby so you you you also have the challenge of filling in gaps so as I said before there's no rule thumbs in creating effective stories you really have to just get something that clicks but anyway the u.s. School of Music is a is a case study in how you can create with just a print ad Delft expressive benefits this this person that's really you know excel the overcome an amazing challenge and social benefits he not only got accepted it became a valued member of a social group second story is Barclays it shows how signature stories can really change perceptions Barclays in 2002 we had of course a financial meltdown and a lot of organizations got blamed for that Barclays was at the top of the list it's in part because if its role the library interest rate scandal in 2012 it was actually by quantitative surveys the least trusted major UK brain bank in the least trusted industry that's quite a position so in 2013 Barclays decided we have to do something about that they created a new purpose help people achieve their ambitions and they at least a whole set of employees to create programs to help people to help communities and to fulfill that purpose these people are generated about 40 programs the amazing response of so much energy so much activity so much meaning in their lives and one of these programs is called Digital Eagles taught public how to thrive in a digital world it started out with 17 people that were going to try to educate their fellow employees but a grew to 17,000 employees that help people and all sorts of situations they'd have tea and learn sessions in the branches they make house calls and one of the people they touched was named Steve rich and and he was really interested in football we call it soccer and but he couldn't play because of an injury then he discovered walking football no running no contact six per side and he was hooked and he wanted to share the passion with others he wanted to raise interest in the sport he wanted to connect people with teams he wanted to organize the national tournament and to do that he needed the help of Digital Eagles so they they came to help them they help them set up a website to do all that and and there's a video on that topic you go to Barclays digital Eagle zon YouTube you can see it and you see his wife describing how this is reenergized his whole life created meaning and so on for him and others that now play walking football so what happened 20 months into the program trust was up 33% six times the prior advertising which was fact-based it didn't do anything consideration was up 130 percent five times the prior advertising so what we have here is a real field experiment that demonstrates really dramatically the power of stories over facts to change perceptions it's a it's a rare situation we've got a lot of lab studies a lot of theories but this is an actual field experiment there was 5,000 positive mentions and press and before that it was if you had Barclays in the press it was not at all positive so how did this happen how does signature stories change perceptions well they do it in three ways first stories gain attention and we have numerous studies to do that if you say something like you know it was a rainy Friday morning and in in Ohio and when somebody sat down in the telephone and wrote the most earnest and this typewriter and wrote the most important marketing memo ever ever you you pick up your ears you know you you're drawn in second it distracts from counter arguing and we also know this from countless studies if you if you borrow skis would say we have a program to change to fix it we're not going to do this LIBOR thing ever again we're gonna we're gonna be as as pure as any firm you know well people are gonna say you know you know this the same people same organization same age they're gonna change and there's going to be counter arguing you know counter argue with the story about Steve rich the third thing is it's going to create liking and feelings that are transform to the brand and in a half a century of research from MSI academics and many others and in the industry there's one I say the most robust empirical finding we have is that if you like the ad you're more likely to increase your liking for the brand than decrease it there's a causal relationship between liking the ad and liking the brand it's so robust hundreds and hundreds of studies I thought three studies myself quantitative analytical studies with big databases that I've proved this several times and and so if you like the ad you like Steve Rich you like his relationship with us why if you like what he's done to revitalize his life and that of others if that gives you a good feeling it's likely to be transferred to the brand so let me now turn to what challenges face developing signature stories and in a b2b setting because you don't have that emotional connection very likely it's it's more likely to be more logical rational factual case studies now profit has something like 75 signature stories all around case experiences one of them is around t-mobile who in 2012 was losing four hundred and four and a half million subscribers a year and was a fourth place of player and sinking and they came up with a solution the uncarrier helped by some research and consulting from profit it had no contract no plans you can upgrade twice a year and it completely transformed the industry and because people hated those contracts as a result in the next 18 months after they started this new program twenty two and a half million joined they they became the number three player they passed sprint it was a remarkable thing so let's take a look now with that context in to the challenges facing b2b marketing first of all to be intriguing it's different because you you really you know you're not going to probably have that emotional thing like we saw in the in the piano player you're going to you're going to have to punch up your your story some other way and in three ways you can do that is to punch up the problem it's really good if you have a you know a firm or a business that's really sick that's maybe in the danger of going out of business and of course t-mobile was was wasn't almost that category it helps that the solution is so creative so intriguing so transformational that you got to talk about it that also is true a t-mobile and then it's also good to have an outcome that's quantitative and dramatic and that was the case of t-mobile as well so that's the one element another is how to be relevant because being involving is different in a b2b case to be involving is really to be relevant so if the audience can say yeah I have a problem like that yeah it's my industry yeah I it's even the firm is is similar to mine at same same issues then it's relevant to them and and the b2b really has to deal with story overload story overload occurs in a lot of places but b2b when you have a bunch of customer case studies you're gonna have overload as I said profit is over 75 so you gotta find a way to deal with that overload you can do it by having lead stories by having a high criteria to accepting something as they say mature story you can do a story banks you can do it with a sort of story architecture to create synergies but it's it's a definite this problem now one of the issues in b2b is that if you're trying to generate a case study from a customer a customer may say to know that problem I'm a little embarrassed or it says well maybe disguise a little bit the solution to the outcome because I like to keep that private so he end up with a weak shallow story that just isn't worth anything so that's kind of a challenge that you have to work with the next story is about how you provide stories to provide freshness and energy Noir is a is a brand that was developed a hundred eighty years ago and it was all about even then about bringing flavor to the table to create meaningful moments and that's true now as well you see things like seize the flavor you see things like rich flavor brings people together together with flavor hashtag the purpose at North today is to enrich people's lives through flavor so the challenge is how do you make this fresh you know after almost two centuries how do you make this this this brand vision fresh and especially to Millennials because you want them to come into this brand it can't be just people and a good experience with their grandmother so the solution was of an experiment oh that love at first taste experiment the other hypothesis did Laura that the love is so far I mean that flavor so powerful can affect a love relationship they did a survey a large sits our number survey twelve thousand people and they found that 70% were attracted to people with the same flavor preference and actually one-third said that if there was a flavor mismatch with your partner it was a doomed relationship and they looked at Dainius dating sites and found that the flavor expression often or flavor often expressed people's personality and lifestyle so what they did they had seven couples that didn't know each other but were matched match on the flavor profile they had the noir flavor profile and they put them together with a meal that's corresponding to that flavor profile with the rule that they had to feed each other they couldn't just eat it themselves so you can imagine this is awkward and aren't you sort of interested in figuring out what's going to happen well they did a three-minute video of this and I'll play a portion of that video and you'll see what happens [Music] you have to feed each other so I'm not allowed to put food in my lap the whole milk exactly okay cool everything is so men this is like the perfect then of me you creep most men I sent you how do we do this you know what this wasn't very expensive you can just her a bit strict love everything don't leave it away from me maybe towards me did the idea come through yep it did oh good okay so you can just see the you know the how fascinating you get with that sort of premise so uh what happened was they put this video on YouTube got eighty million views on their other outlets they got twenty more so they got a hundred million views and not only that the media jumped all over this thing they got over two billion exposures 2.2 billion exposures because it went viral on mainstream media so you know talk about freshness and energy and it just couldn't have happened without this story has presented in this video so the last story is about signature stories that actually provide emotional connection you just can't do that with facts it was about four years ago Becky Palomar Palmer Liu was in record Breckenridge Dean with her husband celebrating a five-year anniversary she was 32 years old a runner really fit and at lunch she had chest pains and the tingling down her left arm and she thought oh I can't have a heart attack I'm too young to fit but she got it checked out at a local hospital and they said that lining in her artery was breaking off causing clots so she was airlifted to UC health in Boulder and there's a phone her heart was practically dead was barely moving on each side and and then they this is a video that shows her story and we'll pick it up they're all odds Becky made it through five surgeries in two days and doctors implanted a temporary device to circulate her blood completely kept alive by machines and in dire need of a new heart Becky was put at the top of the transplant list with nothing left to do but wait she had a finite amount of time I mean they had the assist devices in they were at the last stage of being able to use those devices she was not leaving the hospital until she got a transplant after 14 days of waiting and wondering if she'd get the heart she desperately needed a doctor came into her room locked eyes with Becky and smiled and I asked him do we have a heart and he said yes we have heart heart-transplant I think is amazing because as soon as you get it plugged in that heart starts beating and I I think it's completely humbling to us I believe it was dr. baboo who came out and said that it everything is great hearts ticking I don't think that any of us have never been transplanted well truly fully you get it I've never had my life this close to being taken from me so when it's given back to in fall I can't imagine what that's like now everybody takes it as a gift and this is somebody that has nurtured this gift and will continue to give back the other thing that I do think about is the fact that another person had to perish in order for me to live I do plan to write a letter to that family thanking them for the gift that they've given me and letting them know the plans that I have to use this new chance at life and then I would like to someday be able to meet that family and give them the opportunity if they want to be able to you know listen to their daughter's heart still beating your life your story and wasn't the emotional connection with Becky just just amazing it's hard not to be still involved it's not hard too hard not to have tears come to your eyes and it's so inspirational not only for Becky but the hospital and staff and notice they didn't there's nothing about the heart confidence of UC health or it has to be discovered by the viewer it's they they can't come out of that story without that impression but there was never any assertion or any facts supported UC health had to follow on videos one was thanking the donor video in this Becky you see her packing up and driving staying in a hotel going the next day and knocking on the day on the door of the donors mother to let that mother feel the heartbeat of her daughter and you see her at the poised at the door very nervous and it was odd trepidation and waiting for the moment that doors gonna open Andy she's going to be talking to the mother of the person who don't donate at her heart and then you see another video for training for the transplant Olympics two years later uh you see how this quite America remarkable they have a hundred and fifty similar videos many of them just as emotional I've seen a couple dozen of them there and they're talking about all kinds of people and it all sort of stems from their organizational values patient first and their chief marketing and experience officer Manny Rodriguez said stop talking about yourself no stories about your client and they they really walked the walk and if you open up their website you don't see anything about UC health you see some signature stories one is from Kim Hess who had a devastating hand injury during a mountain climb and here she was one summit away from climbing the seventh tallest peaks on each continent she she said you've got to restore this hand to a hundred percent functionality because I need to I'm a Monde climber and and they had a seven and a half operation and a year of therapy and they did just that and she is back on her quest there's a story about a trained engineer that was had a brain tint tumour threatening his hearing and he's back and then there's the story of Lindsay Pratt who gave her mom part of her liver and you see him recalling their conversations and I mom tried to talk her out of it but she couldn't so just some final thoughts one of the most important things in getting you know signature stories into your organization or even into your personal professional life or even in your personal life is to realize that that these stories are powerful in fact are not getting attention changing perceptions persuading energizing stimulation action we know from all kinds of studies stories are so much more important than facts and then you have to know that finding creating and using signature stories is is really challenging you got to find ones that are involving and intriguing that that has a WOW factor you have to get the presentation right and that takes a lot of art to it and then you have to get those stories to the audience which is a clay classic communication who is the audience how does it segment how do you reach them and of course in social media it's complicated and finally had to deal with story overload and in in sort of not a boy getting to the place where he's just overwhelmed in there's too many stories and and and many of them aren't good and so you're always screening them place to go along so that's my story and I'm looking forward to some questions thanks very much safe it's great i I want to remind the audience that you can send your questions and directly through the chat with presenter function on the left hand corner of your screen and as some of you are doing that I want to raise a couple of issues that I think you really made a very strong case for and that is there's a lot of talk these days about content marketing and as though this or a new idea and it seems to me that that example you gave at the very beginning of the the message about the piano player was a classic example of content marketing through well there was a story that drew you and it was almost incidental that this was promoting a school where you would learn to play the piano that was the means to the end of his triumph as or and I just let me maybe elaborate a little bit more about what you think perhaps is maybe it has always been the case with stories and if there in fact is something new or different today in the sort of digital media environment that we have you know people that tourists we have shorter attention spans and so forth and yet it seems like stories are still maybe more than ever a good way to break through so a little bit more about stories as it relates to the current vogue for content marketing yes you know that my belief is that a digital content and content of stories because if you look at a lot of challenges in digital they are to you know to get they some kind of content in front of a a person in a very dynamic and complicated and cluttered media landscape and and to do that if whether you're in Facebook or Twitter or whatever you have to break through a lot of clutter and so stories is is it been demonstrated the way to do that so then that the challenge is to find the right stories and to package them right oh yeah I di that's when I one of my motivations is that how do you how do you get stories to help you with the content challenge in the media in the digital context okay great we have some questions coming in on what I'm trying to get with quite a few actually one that's more specific maybe we'll start with that was just ask the question around in b2b marketing if it's a service industry you can talk about how the customer rep will help the person solve a problem or something like that when you're trying to talk about you know technology or tangible products it might be a little harder to find the story your thoughts about that and you mentioned it as early on that this might be a particularly tricky area simply because the client may sometimes balk a little bit at telling the whole story of how they had a problem that needed resolution and yet that's what makes for the powerful story so maybe a little bit more about finding and telling stories in a b2b environment especially around products for other than services well the I mean there's this I there's a there's dozens of ways that a story a story can be sourced one is the founder story I mean the classic case of a of a hardware manufacturer in the technical space is Hewlett Packard in the story of the garage and how they did this next bench philosophy so they they're always dressing real problems and and they had this innovative spirit in the in the hewlett-packard garage that still exists in Palo Alto so there's a founder story and that's one thing there's a there's a transformational story like Lou Gerstner coming in IBM when there was a failed company and he he turned it around by doing these really transformational things and then that's another company that that that makes hardware and I think if you look at the cloud companies all those servers sitting in banks you know people aren't interested in the facts about how many servers and how fast what they're interested in is what they can do for you and so that the challenge for them is to look and see where the cloud has made a dramatic difference in in some people's lives or some firm's operations and tell that story so well sometimes sometimes you sit down and you say what are our signature stories what stories represent what we do and what we value and there'll be a thumb will come to the surface sometimes dozens and dozens will come to the surface and but sometimes you have to actually go out there and in some firms have hired reporters and editors and reporters are used to seeking out stories and they go out in the field and find customer stories or employee stories that's a great point actually a couple of questions related I think to that which Marilyn and Hillary had different ways of phrasing it but they both mounted to the question of how do you get your story to breakthrough given the wealth of stories that are out there and maybe to your point how do you choose the story you yourself want to emphasize you mentioned the need to have a key or a lead story maybe that brings things together about the healthcare example you gave was a great one where it had a common element of storytelling which is overcoming a there was a challenge of struggle it wasn't clear how this was going to end up it could have ended up poorly or badly and somehow things turned out well in the end thanks to the intervention of the medical folks and so forth so there is that element of kind of overcoming a challenge and it raises a question of more broadly about do you need to sort of have one uber story you might say one story that sort of stands for the organization and then each example becomes sort of an illustration of that basic idea so that you're not really telling a different story each time your thoughts about the need to have a kind of a single coherent story that unites these different examples yeah there's almost everybody doesn't have one story almost everybody has a series of stories so and and it's kind of like solving the brand portfolio strategy problem there's there's all kinds of ways to link things some can be stories that that elaborate the the meta story others can be stories that tell us from a different perspective so you get a more broadly more textured impression of the other thing but yeah there's sometimes there's a role for a meta story than stories underneath that elaborate but there's a lot of ways to create synergy and organize stories and I think that's you know that's something that we don't have a lot of theories and concepts to help us but but that's certainly one of the challenges with dealing with a lot of stories well and I think your advice is now about seeking out people that whose lives are built around stories your reporters and others there are these skill sets some of the skills presumably can be taught some of the maintenance be native to the different types of people but certainly there must be other people within your organization or that you know about who or perhaps better at finding that compelling story - have you come a little bit further about a couple of other points you raised which think are very important and that is this notion that stories sort of preempt counter-arguments I think that's one of the main reasons they're more powerful and persuasive than facts because each fact that you may say about yourself or your product or your company almost immediately evokes the the contrary response you know is that true or who else does that or you know so almost invariably you can think about alternative to that stated fact whereas the story kind of draws you in and as you pointed out at one point the audience fills in the gaps the audience participates in the story in a way that maybe they don't when you're just talking about facts about your company so a little bit more about that role of how stories preempt or prevent counter arguments there's a whole field in psychology called distraction period it's a it's such a robust finding in in communications area that if you distract people you'll get rid of cut or you minimize counter arguing and that and that's that's why we use humor to humor if you put humor in the story if you have a story with humor it sort of it sort of doubles its ability to distract because not only are you distracted by the story but you're laughing at the at the jokes and and you're just that much more less or that much less likely to counter argue to be skeptical to push back that's a good point - a couple of the questions have been along the lines of how you identify a good story within your own organization and specifically one of the questions was around the right length for stories and again maybe given today at least the talk about people's limited attention spans so what are your thoughts about kind of what is the right length or again the way - as you look at all the possible things you could say about yourself how do you begin to zero in on the story that's got to be there's just no rules of thumb and people would like to have a set of 20 characteristics you know is there tension is there emotional connection is there humor is there you know whatever and you try to check more it more boxes and that's just not the way it works I mean it's that Hemingway story you know baby shoes for sale never worn is is enormous ly powerful at six words yeah I know and right out of this print ad and it's pretty powerful so it can be very short and can be very short or it can be very long it is this these videos this thing on Nora super the video is four and a half minutes and so it did there's just no rule of thumb the the baby basic bottom line is does it intrigue doesn't involve and is there some sort of wow factor where are you you sort of said I I gotta share this with somebody this is this is really special yeah you know it strikes me the the Norris story issues laid it out illustrates a lot of those points very nicely the I think you said it at the time once you set up this premise that people have shared case this might actually be related to romantic attraction everybody was like on the edge of the seats like what happens next where is this going to go and then you have this it was it seven couples so maybe the first two are clicked but you kept in suspense about how this would play out with the others and maybe that's the point too there was kind of a basic question but there was at least seven different answers to that question that we kept waiting to see each one though so the that relates to another question around the sort of the shelf-life of storytelling it seems like again the healthcare example once they had found that basic idea they could come up with other examples that sort of illustrate at the same point but in different ways concretely and that gave it sort of a longer shelf-life it's almost like sequels in the movie industry or something once you would establish a franchise then you could sort of use that over and over again with new stories with thoughts about that well yeah there's a you have two competing sort of goals one is to keep a story alive and the second is to keep it fresh and keeping it fresh means you probably want introduce new stories keeping the live you want to find a way to remind people the old one but one when you get a really good story there's a lot of ways to keep it alive to give it a long tail you know at US health you just have to mention Becky the name Becky and this whole story comes to mind you don't have to retell the story and you know there was a over the story about the the guy that took over hired in 1985 when it was a failing crumbling appliance manufacturer and and the customer came in with a defective refrigerator and he went to the warehouse to find a replacement he'd found twenty percent were defective he brought them all to the factory floor and had his boys smash him with a sledgehammer that sledgehammer knows a symbol of the day that quality became important and higher it's a it's a it's in a museum at the home office it and in all you have to do is mention that the sledgehammer not only to employees but really to all center retailers and others too because it it didn't it helps make that story live that's a great point about the and you mentioned they kill a packer in the garage that kind of the iconic symbol of certainly Hill up hacker but sort of the whole Silicon Valley industry and the mindset there that you know kind of invented the garage and then become a world-class company so again a great story in its own right spread ask the question about whether stories as you described them signature stories are the same as having testimonials from customers or what is the role of testimonials that say and putting your story to get it well that's a really great question and usually testimonials are are just a right for counter arguing they're really and very different and less effective than stories be you know they just seem so self-serving and and so on whether you tell a story you know take the same person and that's giving a testimonial and you tell the story about his experience it's it's it's just so much more powerful so yeah yeah that's that's a really good point in that and our company and others use you'll have these testimonials and I'll say well let's let's have a case story let's have a story of a customer and they'll give me a testimonial and but Italy it sounds like this the testimonial from that customer with some coaching perhaps or health needs to itself be a story it can't just be a customer kicking off a set of facts or something to your point about the power of the story itself no what you have is people saying I had the greatest experience these people were really you know had this quality and that quality and the third quality and and then at the end well that that's you know you're gonna count are you gonna push back you're gonna say you know this probably this guy's brother-in-law and and and worse if he talked to you know I had this huge problem and and then we did this research and we considered these options we did these testing we came over this solution and the solution is dramatic and it really changed things that's the story yeah yeah I mean to your part about authenticity properly framed as a story coming from a spokesperson who is testimonial the customer not the company that they just makes it all the more powerful so I has a question about whether any of this changes or how it applies in the case of nonprofits who really have to sort of appeal to people's emotions and engagement you know to solicit contributions that sort of thing so your thoughts about the role of signature stories specifically for nonprofits that's a great question and I'm working to put this book in the concepts in the there's many nonprofits as I can because I think it's just ideally suited for them they usually have very little communication budget and - they have great stories and you know and it's so hard you know one of my favorite charities I've been working with for a while and I keep telling the directors story story stories and she comes up with a an 8 page story of what happened last year and it's all facts there's no stories there and it's it's you know in life boy a sope Unilever company they came up with this help of chelebi's 5 program in India where they trying to get a billion people to wash their hands more effectively which would prevent the disease that causes these infant deaths and they made a video of three little communities they put this program into that a very emotional focus on a person in the community they got 44 million views now this isn't a non-profit but it could be and and in you you just can't get that kind of exposure any other way I mean you just need to tell these these great stories charity waters is a nonprofit that is very very good at storytelling and they're they create wells for communities that don't have water and and they have they tell a story about this this girl that became head of the committee that ran the well and she was 16 years old and and she knows he could now go to school she didn't have to walk two hours a day for water and the water was now good not not polluted and yeah so I think not-for-profits are are should really beyond the story bag wagon because they they need to communicate effectively and efficiently and they have stories you know that's a great point too about needing to make the most of limited resources I think may be good advice to the audience in the in the for-profit sector would be to look at effective nonprofits people that they find themselves supporting perhaps and see what was it about the story the message from that nonprofit that resonated that might be a good way to think about what's the equivalent story for your organization all that upbeat note I think we're going to have to call it a day then but they really appreciate your time and effort here was a great story and and some interesting food for thought I know the audience enjoyed it so we'll be sending out a video to those of you who are watching and if you have colleagues that perhaps registered and couldn't make it live they'll be able to view this video and our archive series later we encourage you to share that and send it to your colleagues and others to share this wealth if you want to contact them directly for additional questions you can write to him at D ocker it's daa kar at profit P ro Phe T calm and with that I just want to remind you that since 1961 non profit MSI has brought together the best minds in marketing from major corporations and top business schools around the world to improve business practice by applying science to marketing's biggest challenges