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is gary bernstein [Music] yes yes oh meetings being recorded oh we didn't record that wonderful intro to begin with oh my okay good um let me introduce gary he is emeritus academy professor of psychology is published widely on interdisciplinary topics at the intersection of psychology in physiology right he was co-founder of the emerging field of social neuroscience he's a past president of society for psychological research in his co-editor of the handbook of psycho i'm sorry i have a cat here in the handbook of neuroscience for the behavioral sciences for these and other efforts he's received the paul d mclean award for outstanding neuroscience research in psychosomatic medicine from the american psychosomatic society in 2013 and the award for distinguished contributions to psycho psychology from the society for psych psycho physiological research in 2020. he has served on several panels improv projects on the detection of deception and the risk for the department of defense homeland security national academy of sciences and patel institute and that's what he's going to tell us all about today um gary okay let me see if we can get this to work uh let's see and what do what do i have to do to get rid of the um the pictures on the side i don't i don't know you can get rid of the picture scary but you can press escape so that it doesn't cover your slides i can what i think if you oh i think god okay uh like to talk about uh intelligence what's going on there a lot of interest and importance in this domain some of the most exciting developments are in the area of signals intelligence that allows us to listen in on conversations to pick up relevant bits of information and open source intelligence especially when combined with artificial intelligence that can digest this massive information database just as an aside the darpa defense advanced research projects agency recently completed a a simulated dog fight with an artificially artificial intelligence guided plane and actual pilots top pilots the ai one every dog fight um but we're going to spend most of our time on on an older and more mundane somewhat but probably equally important uh aspect of intelligence and that's human intelligence oh let's see what i have there are a little bit of a background to lead into the top because we're all aware of the tragic uh school massacres of recent times but it wasn't just recent times matter in fact the worst and the earliest was a basketball massacre in 1927. so around the end of the 20th century beginning of the 21st century we we have a number of sort of notable incidents horrible as they are and on november 5 uh nade alphason at fort hood now on a military base killed 13 and wounded 43. so in response to this and the aggregate particularly to the fort wood issue the united states then separate secretary of defense robert gates established a dod independent review and they came up with a product called protecting the force lessons from fort hood one of their top recommendations is we need ways of identifying behaviors that may pose an internal threat the military by its very nature tends to be focused on external threats and the follow-up to that was where i got involved the defense science board task force on predicting violent behavior was chartered by the under secretary of defense for acquisition technology and logistics and the under secretary of defense for policy incidentally who is currently being considered for secretary of defense by the administration and we developed a product published in august of 2012. um that i'll come back to shortly just as an aside shortly after that was published i got a letter from the office of personnel management that all of my security clearance information was was released in that 2015 cyber intrusion including my fingerprints and by the way if i have any friends in here they also got my personal acquaintances so here and there too let's get back to the main topic lying is cognitively effortful and air pro a very important feature of deception walter scott oh what a tangled web we weave when at first we practice to deceive not without good reason said that he was not a good memory should never take upon him the trait of lying and our friend mark twain if you don't if you tell the truth you don't have to remember anything but an important comment of his also was almost all lies are acts and speech may have no part in him that was from his treatise on first lie and how he got out of it uh and another uh twainism we're not talking here about social niceties we're not talking about the normal white lies that we may tell in order to maintain social connections or what have you we're talking about deceit with malintent it has a totally different emotional and cognitive effect so let me relate the parable of the lie detecting donkey it has been said there was a sultan who was missing a number of items from his castles and he called together his servants and explained to them that he had obtained a lie detecting donkey and he was going to have each of the servants in turn go into the room close the door and slap the donkey on the rump and the sultan declared that when the liar when somebody was just told a lie and slaps that donkey it will bray so one by one uh the servants went in donkey never braid the dog cake never does break the salt and said let me see your hands and he pointed to one of the servants says here's the guilty party guards take him away seems unbeknownst to the servants the salton had instilled powdered charcoal in the fur of the donkey and the only servant who came out with clean hands was obviously because he didn't slap the donkey again all eyes are acts speech may have no part in them deception is cognitively effortful it impacts behavior so more up to date let's let's let's look into the 20th century and some traditional approaches to detection of deception and truth fullness uh employing the autonomic nervous system hugo munsterberg was a harvard university professor who wrote a forensic book on the witness stand he was president of the american psychological association for a time uh one of his main theses is the eyewitness testimonial testimony is unreliable and he emphasizes specially when used with torture scientific approach um was uh uh he was a mentor to william marston and harold burke i'll talk about both of those momentarily marston right now he was a marston william morrison was a psychologist and lawyer at harvard and he deployed the what was called the erlanger method of lie detection uh essentially a blood pressure cuff was inflated parkway around the arm and pressure pulses could be measured he gave this test to fry who had been charged with murder fry passed the test and in a suit fry versus the united states that evidence was attempted to be submitted but it was was not accepted by the court because it was not accepted science shortly thereafter uh associates of mars and john larson he was a policeman and a physiologist a strange combination and leonard keeler his assistant developed the keeler emotograph basically a version of the contemporary polygraph and here incidentally is keeler in the movie north side 777 showing off his device current systems typically employ a couple of pneumographs around the chest to monitor breathing blood pressure cuff uh like marston's airlanger method and skin potential skin conductance response there is a subsequent ruling dalbert versus the merrell versus merrill dao which was a um a suit draw brought against benedictine and a drug that was accused of causing birth defects and uh in dalbrook the court really set out out the criteria for admissibility of novel methods had to be tested had to be peer reviewed had to be accurate had to be generally acceptable so marston himself was quite a character he sold a lot of advertising with his device here strapped to the lie detector the same scientific instrument used by g-man he showed that gillette blades were better than the competitors he also offered to test faithfulness of married couples by the blood pressure response of a woman to a husband's kiss compared to that of a attractive stranger but despite this he also uh was a champion of women he uh he um was concerned about the absence of of women superheroes you may have seen this in the or a few years ago on wonder woman's 75 year anniversary marston was a consultant for gaines comics especially their crime versions and in that context he developed this character wonder woman and note the byline here is charles excuse me charles moulton they used their two middle names uh as the author and recall the attribute of wonder woman's lasso if she had you in the news you could not tell a lie so more recently and more locally the graf and ohio state university harold burke he was a department of psychology chair he was also a student of hugo munsterberg he wrote the treatise legal psychology which dealt with forensics other criminal and legal issues he served on the national research council committee with marston evaluating the park polygraph for use in military intelligence services and just as an aside frank stanton uh his former student ultimately donated uh 1.25 million to endow the harold ebert chair in psychology burke was a member of the original committee that proposed a new faculty club building at osu where i wish we all were right now but hopefully we will be again and he was the president of that faculty club in 1945 so another angle to the detection detection of veracity and deception was from paul ekman a leading student of facial patterns and facial recognition algorithms he noted there are six major facial patterns reflecting general emotions happiness sadness fear surprise anger disgust these are relatively universal across cultures they're inherently wired in action patterns and one variant of the disgust is just subtle it's a contempt one side usually and it may or may not even be visible without careful attention what paul ekman called micro expressions these facial expressions can sometimes emerge instantaneously and disappear in the same period of time he spent much of his his career training people to recognize these facial expressions and he developed uh what is now known as the facial action coding system he has been a long time advisor to three letter agencies in the government and of course was a consultant if you may recall of lie to me the truth is written all over our faces it was a fictionalized version but he had a commentary on his website about what was realistic and what was fantasy in any event let me give you an example of a content micro expression in 2014 you may recall crimea ukraine was invaded by russians the ukrainian military put down their arms and marched to confront the invaders two which were here they began discharging firearms and finally there was a discussion the commander intervened and calmed things down a little bit but our shooter commented i have my orders i'm serious i'll shoot your legs it's your president who created this and here is the next frame of that video the next frame you can see he's blinking and he's got a subtle contempt the frame rate rate of this camera was 24 hertz that means about 40 milliseconds per frame so within 40 milliseconds we see this nominal subtle micro expression then in the very next frame emerges into an a clear-cut content facial expression note that his eyes are still closed the next frame his eyes are beginning to open and the contempt expression is gone this all happened this all happened in the blink of an eye a micro expression so ekman goes on and uh following after the early studies of the physiologist duchene on facial muscles he points out a distinction between a real smile the so-called shane smile and what we see here is termed the pan-american smile or the botox smile there is some elevation of the lips with a smile like configuration but a real smile ekman points out is not strictly volitional from this primary motor cortex but subcortically and manifests in not only activation of the so-called zygomaticus major muscle but obecularis oculi as well and i apologize for this example it was just very expressive i don't own any stock and tesla but note the crow's feet the contractions of the extra orbital muscles around the eye that's a characteristic of a real smile of an actual smile so ekman's spent a lot of his time observing people observing faces observing behavior he was in fact a consultant to the transportation safety administration in setting up what was then called the spot program the screening of passengers by observation techniques you may or may not be aware of that it's it is now generally referred as it's morphed somewhat into what has been termed the quiet skies program they're both similar they entail behavioral markers of stress fear deception and if a passenger exceeds a number of these they can be taken for additional screening it's an expensive program because it requires a lot of of personnel the general accounting ability office asked in 2013 whether it was effective turns out there were some 600 million passengers screen some 38 000 almost referred to from the spot analysis and about 2 to a law enforcement officer about 199 arrests were made in that period not a terrorist was found so there's been some concern about modernizing we just saw a 2018 tsa modernization act which is calling on the agency to refine these screening procedures ekman a very salient feature of that development so how good are people in general at detecting deception well not really very good at least not from a video and this is sort of an unfair comparison because they just had individuals watch a video of somebody lying or telling the truth and the estimates were not much better than chance um but that detection accuracy goes up considerably if one knows the person being judged is familiar with their behavioral habit for example parents or if one has training in an opportunity for interrogation then you can gain increasingly accurate become increasingly accurate in predicting so let's take a look at the polygraph back to the polygraph national ins national research council in 2003. uh polygraph can detect lying from truth at rates above chance the well below perfection there are four possible outcomes of a polygraph exam there is the judgment of the examiner the actual status of truth or deception a hit the operator judges the person who's lying to be a liar a correct rejection where the operator judges a truth-teller to be telling the truth a myth in which somebody is deceptive but the operator doesn't detect it it's basically a transient get out of jail free card but the assumption is we'll get them eventually here is the serious the false alarm what ekman called the othello heir after he killed desdemona who was wailing her innocence that she had not had an affair but he interpreted that wailing to reflect guilt the false alarm is potentially a problem but it's not really the probability of a false alarm that's of relevance it's the so-called expected value of that outcome which is the probability the outcome times the cost of the outcome in a criminal polygraph procedure the cost can be enormous and we'll come back to that issue shortly and i'm also going to come back to counter measures just just introduce uh there are a number of countermeasures that have been developed both physical and cognitive or emotional physical can involve tensing muscles or inflicting pain somehow on oneself to creating a reaction cognitive thinking of something relaxing during the critical question or alternatively thinking of something arousing during a control question and that general approach in spades has been applied uh in a program from the homeland security i served as a scientific advisor for one and only one reason and that was the low expected value in this situation the basic scheme is that a series of sensors would be detecting physiological functions including sweating by thermal signatures here and in the aggregate this information would be used to come to a collective estimate of whether that person was extraordinarily deception deceptive or apprehensive in fact they ran a number of of simulations of that one of them in fact in yankee stadium and they were able to in these situations where they they would pay some attendant attendee to um you know put this little device in your pocket and see if you can get through security when you're on the other side uh we can you'll meet somebody else i'll set off device not going to hurt anybody but let's see if this system can work it catch about 80 percent just about the same as a polygraph 20 to get through and ultimately that project was defunded so let's come back to the predicting violent behavior we declared collectively that prediction is not viable consider a population of a hundred thousand soldiers for example with an eighty percent accuracy twenty percent twenty thousand of those would either be misjudged as deceptive or misjudged as being truthful and the expected value here could be very high this could be the loss of a commission that could be all kinds of consequences in a military setting so the recommendation was don't try and predict there are way too many indicators retrospectively we could often go back and find oh that behavioral feature or this comment or that issue should have been a dead giveaway but in fact they're innumerable indicators by many people that don't go on to commit crimes what we suggested is you really need a prevention program that looks at the origins the causes and can resolve some of the contextual and excuse me environmental triggers to violence and one of those is the ability to intervene without stigma stigmatizing the individual to refer to psychological services again without stigmatizing the soldier which may stop his advancement but as with many government panels it didn't seem to take in 2020 there were 16 suspicious deaths at fort hood so let me come back to county measures this is doug williams he was a polygraph examiner he was with the air force he was a police officer also oklahoma city and he finally got fed up with what he thought was an ah poor system for detection of deception that was fraught with heirs he testified before congress in fact in 1985 and confessed to crimes against humanity but he promoted in 1988 the employee polygraph protection act that act permits widespread use of the polygraph in military and applications but it live excuse me it limits its widespread use in in civilian screening he received received the volunteer advocate award from the aclu and then one day he got a call not recognizing that it was a crime to knowingly help someone to lie to federal agents he was caught in a sting that was part of the administration's effort to stop federal leaks after the ed snowden episode and he was sentenced to two years for teaching countermeasures to undercover agents there is now a cottage industry out there of organizations such as antipolygraph dot org um that are concerned with the continued application of the polygraph again 80 it is not bad for a medical test for example because you just go check it it's when the expected value is high and there have been some notable failures the green river somewhere between 50 to 90 victims in the 60s and the 90s david reichert was the sheriff at the time trying to catch this guy they got him in 1984 he was brought in for questioning past the lie detector was not convicted until 2001. melvin foster was a nerd do well who was uh interrogated concerning these green river killings and he failed the polygraph and he remained a suspect until finally biological evidence dna evidence convicted the earth would have led to the conviction of gary ridgeway when holy wrote a treatise on my country versus me he was accused of espionage at los alamos had a series of polygraph exams some showed he was not being deceptive of others the operator said he was deceptive son they were that he took that were originally judged to be not deceptive we're looked at by other operators who said no he was deceptive um he was indicted but ultimately exonerated except for he was he didn't mishandling of some documents he didn't adequately secure them and was awarded a 1.6 million dollar settlement aldrich aims probably one of our worst destructive spies uh in our history uh 1985 we started losing ages um overseas especially in russia he had betrayed hundreds of operations in at least 10 ages in two cases 1986 1991 he passed the polygraph examination despite having a half a million dollar house jaguar six thousand dollar a month phone bill that led ultimately to his arrest and conviction and of course our friend jeff skilling deception was not indicated to the relevant questions one of the relevant questions one of was was there any improper financial arrangement at in the board of directors at enron nope he said this was a polygraph exam using the standard lafayette instrument lx 2000 polygraph he was in fact skilling convicted of conspiracy insider trading false statements so let me try and wrap up here in the next few slides introducing another alternative to the standard polygraph the control question technique is deeply flawed it entails a series of questions are you 21 did you kill your mother usually the relevant items are perfectly recognizable david lincoln is a psychologist and developed an alternative approach we termed the guilty knowledge death it isn't widely embraced by the criminal justice community although it's beginning to in some respects especially in japan it is it is a primary method of uh criminal investigation there some cops don't like it because it's hard to get this specific guilty knowledge information known only by the perpetrator not the general public sometimes referred to as concealed information or the concealed information test so for example uh in a gkt test no verbal response is needed along with the cip the investigators often say just say no to every question there's a series of items one relevant and nine irrelevant for example how is entry obtained to the crime scene front door back or garage window and so on through ten items and then the autonomic reactions to each of those questions is compared and the one that receives the largest response is noted now it could just be random variations there's a one enchant 10 chance of an individual showing the largest response to the target just again by chance one of them has to have the larger response so you do another one how much money was taken 25 50 so forth probability is one of ten of the examinee make showing the largest response to the target item but if they do to both target items now we have a chance not one in ten but statisticians tell us that the joint probability of independent events is equal to the product of the probabilities of the events or one in one hundred if you do this another one it could be one in a thousand so the point here is that the operator never judges truth or deception they never say guilty or innocent they just simply give a statistic this pattern of outcome could occur by chance only with this probability and then it's up to others to interpret one variant of the guilty knowledge test is what larry falwell calls the brain fingerprinting test it doesn't involve autonomic measures it involves brain wave measures the p300 is a well-known deflection positive going deflection that appears about 300 milliseconds after a attending item after an item that gathers attention after a relevant item and so the subjects are asked to count the number of these targets could be a beep could be anything and then they're also shown irrelevant items and probe items probe items are the guilty knowledge items that items that only a perp supposedly would be aware of and so if the probe looks like the target uh the judgment is they had guilty knowledge not that they're necessarily deceptive because they don't have to say anything and the fbi kind of got involved in this they found that in one study with a hundred percent accuracy they could identify fbi agents from non-fbi agents uh they also could differentiate with supposedly 100 accuracy the expertise in military medicine among uh military doctors and actors and they set up a new company brainwave sciences to sell these things their sort of celebrated case is in the case of kevin hughes no terry harrington who was who was uh accused of murdering a cop kevin harrison hughes was the leading main witness farwell ran a brain fingerprinting test found that the probe items did not evoke a target-like response and declared that harrison did not have guilty knowledge that was ruled to be admissible in court under the dalbert versus merrill dow criteria but um it did not dismiss the charges anyway because it said they wouldn't have made any difference well turns out uh hughes ultimately admitted to lying and harrington was freed but other courts haven't been so accepting and there's still a fair amount of reservation in the scientific community because so much of the development of this and the testing of this has been uh secret and there's another case but given the time i'm not going to talk about it in which a individual with guilty knowledge was identified that's coming those are approaches that are coming i just wanted to close with a final comment on torture he'll go monsterberg cautioned against torture as yielding unreliable information but we've got these two quotes psychologists that the american psychological association has declared have left a stain on the discipline they were psychologists at fairfield fairchild air base their mission was to train people to resist torture if they were captured and they were then asked by the cia to reverse engineer this process torture is illegal by the u.s constitution by the geneva convention by the united nations it's criminal and it doesn't work uh banana initiated a cia investigation uh the found value the brutal interrogation was inflated as did the u.s senate if you're interested in this take a look at ali sufan's treatise on black banners it's now a declassified version subtitled how torture derailed the war on terror after 9 11. sufan was an fbi interrogator who developed a rapport with a high-ranking al-qaeda operative and ultimately extracted the names of seven of the 911 attackers at that point he said the cia came uh involved stripped the prisoner naked threw him in a coal still and proceeded with the torture routines he never told another piece of usable information thereafter so to close there are other ways of dealing with deception and truthfulness remember deception is effortful and alters cognition and behavior so let's say you are an interrogator of a suspected al-qaeda operative which of these is your leader answer maybe something like i don't have a leader i'm not al-qaeda okay you're just gonna sit there without lunch until you point to somebody okay okay and he points to somebody what if the numbers turn out like this remember the lie detecting donkey what if nobody picks this guy doesn't necessarily mean he's a leader it's statistically unlikely all eyes are acts and speech may play no part in them thank you for your attention let me unmute myself and say thank you so very much very very interesting um we have a little bit of time we can entertain some questions if you'd like to ask a question please just turn on your mic oh come on i can't believe no questions this a simple question would be have any of these techniques been used together like looking at facial recognition techniques lie detector that lichen procedure you mentioned the brain waves have any of them been used together generally not no you've had some com side by side comparisons of a sort of standard polygraph with the guilty knowledge um but but in in terms of of a broader integration the closest to that was um the fast program homeland security spas program where they were using multiple measures of heart rate of respiration of movement of sweating you know that was probably the most expansive one uh but i think you you're raising a good point that that there could be some reinforcing synergism among uh a multitude of approaches i have a question patrick thanks um my quite well thanks for the talk very informative and thanks for confirming the uncertainties and the errors and the and the problems of all these techniques so my question is so many of these folks have been subjected politicized whatever and you showed it's hard to do better than 80 percent so my question is now or in the era of you know ability to gather multiple sets of data deep learning artificial intelligence and so on can you foresee any uh any path forward with using some of these newer techniques that might might be more successful and admittedly having to look out for attendant risks yeah there are um considerable limitations to the sort of conventional polygraph or guilty knowledge test for that matter you need to be able to administer it uh so you need to have the examinee present there have been some attempts oh with speech stress analysis for example or the attempts to analyze public speech more in the open source media in in using again an aggregate of information to derive a judgment which is probably certainly for for a foreign leader or for a terrorist is going to be much more likely to yield outcomes than than a polygraph you you know you you're not going to give a polygraph test to a north korean leader but you can look with signals intelligence and open source information what's being said what's being what what's the squawk on the street so to speak and begin and that's sort of the directions that the intelligence community is is moving in thanks hey gary jack wood uh great talk my question is how effective an interrogation of psychotic drugs or autonomic drugs such as acne or opioids and that sort of thing been used with any effective application yeah there there have been quite a number just because of time i i i avoided most of them but uh most of them you know anything that would dampen the autonomic nervous system but again it's not just dampening most most agents aren't going to shut it off and so with something like guilty knowledge you can dramatically attenuate those responses but there may be sufficient residual uh do it you know a relaxant or a sedative yeah could could certainly impact that magnitudes but the whole idea behind the guilty knowledge it isn't just magnitude it's relative magnitude anyone else i have a sort of crazy question um now we all roam around outside with masks on how much is that um getting in the way of people recognizing when they should be happy when they should be feel like they're in danger because this person walking towards them is whatever what can we do when the you can't see the faces anymore all you can see is eyes well you know interesting on on that note um some have because of the the increased application of face recognition software and the proposed intrusiveness of that some folks have suggested that should be your argument to wear a mask because these um surveillance cameras can't tell what you're doing my iphone but it does it certainly does compromise it certainly does compromise social communication but you know i mean not so much so on zoom but um it certainly does and we know that that social isolation is far more of a health risk than things like smoking or obesity so um it's a big issue any other question helen do you have yeah i do um yeah i i don't know much about this field and i feel pretty fine about face masks i but you know i just wanted to ask you about the images that you showed uh i wasn't sure if i was supposed to be scared of the people who had been working on these projects or the people who had been interrogated and i couldn't always tell the difference maybe it was just because i'm not used to looking carefully so and especially with the last row of people you showed i mean did you deliberately show people who are considered innocent or have been proven guilty or are we supposed to work worry about it or i don't know if that was left vague i wasn't quite sure about what you intended with all these images of these faces there were very few women by the way and i was wondering if there are there's some uh you know if their thought has been given by all these agencies that you've uh talked about to uh women uh yeah the the tsa uh has certainly uh considered that because they're uh they're screening not general you know not for criminals necessarily i mean they're just screening the the general population and they're going to have um probably equal numbers of men and women and so uh i i think those studies and analyses still have to be done but um in in most cases yeah it's been you know men being the criminals yeah but um my the main question i was wondering about you know a lot of the images you showed were kind of reminded me of those wanted posters one used to see at the post office well in fact of course we don't know if those people are innocent or guilty so um were you really interested in distinguishing those and what about the last panel that we saw no i wasn't i was just trying to illustrate a technique that has been used to flush out information from uh potential terrorists and to identify the hierarchical structure therein i wasn't suggesting uh i wasn't suggesting anything more than that but just that that was as a technique that is uh not torture that may be because images are powerful yes yeah they used uh as we know everywhere to uh distort and to affect people's thinking and yeah fears and they raise a lot of fears yeah good point thank you i have a question lois please um could you does your profession have any wisdom to offer us about the political situation we're in with alternate reality yeah it would be it would indeed be interesting to to have a instrument or device that could tell the difference between whether somebody is just being politic political or whether they actually believe their alternate reality i suspect it could be somewhere in between that people you know if you're if you're presented which consistently with the uniform message by figures in positions of authority and especially if you've lost an election for example you may be motivated to believe the alternative reality that's what um now that thought was fleeting um i'll just stop there okay yeah my question about face masks was because i i'm very frustrated that i walk if i'm walking around i can't communicate with someone walking towards me by smiling because they can't see it right any other questions they could still see your orbicularis oculae they just couldn't detect your zygomaticus so i'll smile with my eyes right okay great um if there's no other questions i had just a couple of quick state things i wanted to say okay um thank you should we thank gary for the presentation oh we're going to yes okay very first thank you gary thank you um joe donna meyer has finished our second newsletter and jason's going to be sending it out sometime over the next couple of days um eventually the newsletters will be posted on the website just haven't been able to do that yet but you will notice um that there are some entries from some of our new members that you met today and you might want to be very careful and go in there and look at those well you should read all of them but especially those entries um and if you go to the very last page you're going to see there's information about what's going on spring semester and when some of our due dates are and i just hope that all of you will pay attention to that we'll send out notices as small grants or various things come up but they are right there on the very last page so you could put them in your calendar right now um and then i did want to thank gary for the wonderful talk today i think we all very much enjoyed it or maybe yeah i guess we enjoyed it whether or not we like these sorts of things going on in the world that we can be tested in this way and someone decide whether or not you know i don't know how i'd be as a test subject you know would i be seen as um deceptive and i'm not trying to be at all just because i don't know how to act it makes me nervous in a way gary um well that that was the whole idea of the guilty knowledge you don't even know what the relevant question is unless you have the guilty knowledge well then i like that one the best um i wanted to thank gary but also uh wish everyone a happy hopefully well holiday season um and that we all meet back here on the first wednesday in february for our next lecture if there's nothing else