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[ APPLAUSE ] >>> ALL WEEK, WE HAVE BEEN BRINGING YOU STORIES OF "DATING, LOVE & SEX." AND SOMETIMES IN THERE COMES CHEATING. THAT'S WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT TODAY, PEOPLE WHO HAVE CHEATED, WHO HAVE BEEN CHEATED ON. AND NOW, THE EXPERTS ARE HERE TO WEIGH IN. DR. RAMANI DURVASULA. THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US. ARE WOMEN CHEATING AS MUCH AS MEN? THE RATES OF WOMEN CHEATING HAVE GONE UP? >> 23% OF WOMEN CHEAT. 19% OF WOMEN. I GUESS GENDER EQUALITY HAS BROUGHT A LOT OF GOOD THINGS. BUT WOMEN ARE CATCHING UP IN SOME NOT VERY NICE PLACES. WOMEN ARE WORKING OUT OF THE HOME MORE. WE CHANGE THE SEXUAL CUSTOMS OF OUR WORLD. WOMEN ARE MORE OPEN AND IN TOUCH WITH OUR SEXUALITY AND SAY, I WANT SOMETHING DIFFERENT. IT'S NOT JUST MEN THAT CAN BE NARCISSISTIC AND TOXIC. WOMEN CAN, TOO. >> WHAT IS MICROCHEATING? >> YES. IT'S AN UMBRELLA TERM FOR ANY MOMENT, CONNECTION, EXPERIENCE, BEHAVIOR, WHERE YOU ARE CHAIR ING SHARING SOMETHING WITH SOMEONE OTHER THAN YOUR PARTNER. AND YOU'RE HIDING THAT FROM YOUR OWN PARTNER. >> WE WERE TALKING ABOUT, COULD IT BE THE HEART EMOJI THAT YOU SEND TO SOMEBODY? LIKE, HOW SMALL COULD YOU GO? >> THE TRUTH IS, IT COULD BE ANYTHING BECAUSE ANY SORT OF INFIDELITY IS REALLY IN THE EYE OF THE PERSON WHO IS EXPERIENCING IT. FOR MY PARTNER GETTING A HEART EMOJI MIGHT NOT BE A BIG DEAL. BUT IF I WAS HAVING SOME KIND OF ONGOING NARRATIVE TEXT THREAD WHERE I WAS SHARING THINGS ABOUT MY LIFE AND FEELINGS I WASN'T SHARING WITH MY PARTNER, THAT COULD BE DIFFERENT. IT COULD BE BIG OR LITTLE. IT'S ABOUT YOUR INDIVIDUAL RELATIONSHIP. >> IT COMES DOWN TO, WOULD YOU BE OKAY IF YOUR SPOUSE HOW YOU DOING THIS? WOULD YOU BE OKAY IF YOUR SPOUSE KNEW? AND IF THE ANSWER IS NO, GET OUT OF THERE. RIGHT? >> WHY ARE YOU DOING IT IF YOUR PARTNER WOULDN'T BE OKAY? THAT'S AN ABSENCE OF EMPATHY. I SAY TO PEOPLE, ASK YOURSELF THAT QUESTION. WOULD YOU BE OKAY IF RIGHT NOW, YOUR PARTNER WAS DOING WHAT YOU'RE DOING WITH SOMEONE ELSE? >> WHY DO PEOPLE CHEAT? FIRST OF ALL, LET'S TAKE ON THE SOCIOPATH ISSUE. >> HOW MUCH TIME YOU GOT? >> BUT THE SOCIOPATH, IS THAT AS RARE AS WE WOULD LIKE TO BELIEVE? >> I WISH IT WERE MORE RARE. AND SADLY, WE'RE REWARDING PEOPLE FOR BEING MEAN. THEY'RE SUCCESSFUL AND THEY GET A LOT OF ATTENTION. AND THAT'S WHAT OUR WORLD HAS BECOME. AND SO, I THINK, SADLY, IT'S NOT AS RARE AS YOU THINK. AND BECAUSE THEY'RE SO CHARMING, THE FIRST GUEST TALKED ABOUT HOW CHARMING SOMEONE IS. IF I HAD ONE PIECE OF DATING ADVICE OUT THERE, IF SOMEONE IS REALLY CHARMING WHEN YOU MEET THEM, DON'T DATE THEM. >> RUN. THEY'RE GOOD AT MIRRORING, RIGHT? >> THEY ARE GOOD AT MIRRORING. >> CAN YOU EXPLAIN WHAT THAT IS? >> IT'S THE IDEA, THEY'RE ALMOST LIKE HUNTERS. THEY FIGURE OUT EXACTLY WHAT MATTERS TO YOU. THEY LEARN YOU. THEY STUDY YOU. AND THEY GATHER ALL THAT INFORMATION. AND IT'S A MANIPULATION. SHE USED THE TERM LOVE BOMBING. THAT'S WHAT IT IS. THEY FIND OUT WHAT WORKS FOR YOU AND THEY GET RIGHT IN THERE. AND YOU BELIEVE THAT YOU'RE IN THE MIDDLE OF A FAIRY TALE. >> I LIKE TO CONSIDER MYSELF AN OPTIMIST. >> I'M THE DARK SIDE OF THIS STORY. >> I THINK ALL OF THE CONVERSATIONS ARE AMAZING JUMPING-OFF POINTS FOR US TO THINK ABOUT WHAT WE FEEL FULFILLED BY. YOU KNOW, DO WE TAKE ADVANTAGE OF OUR PARTNERS? DO WE TAKE CERTAIN THINGS FOR GRANTED? AS THINGS COME UP, WE HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY TO TALK ABOUT THIS IS WHAT I'M FEELING. THIS IS WHAT I NEED. LISTENING TO YOUR PARTNER, WHERE ARE YOU? OFTEN TIMES, PEOPLE CHEAT BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, THEY -- THEIR NEEDS AREN'T BEING MET IN SOME WAY. BUT THEY'RE TAKING THE EASY WAY OUT BECAUSE WE'RE AFRAID TO HAVE THE TOUGH CONVERSATIONS. >> YOU KNOW, IT'S HARD TO START THEM. BUT ONCE YOU GET THEM ROLLING, IT'S SO REWARDING. I HAVE TO SAY. DOUG AND I WILL SIT DOWN AND SAY, I'M FEELING DISCONNECTED FROM YOU. I DON'T FEEL CONNECTED. I DON'T KNOW WHY. AND THEN, WE START TALKING. AND INEVITABLY WE FEEL BETTER AFTER THAT CONVERSATION. HERE'S WHAT PEOPLE [ APPLAUSE ] >>> WE'RE BACK, NOW, WITH PSYCHOLOGIST RAMANI DURVASULA AND LOGAN LEVKOFF, TALKING ABOUT CHEATING. IS THERE A TELL TALE SIGN TO TELL IF SOMEBODY'S CHEATING? >> I HATE TO SAY IT, THE BEST CHEATERS GET AWAY WITH IT AND THERE ARE NO SIGNS. THAT'S A SAD AND SCARY THING. >> I WOULD SAY THERE'S SIGNS. WHAT I'VE SEEN OVER YEARS OF CLINICAL PRACTICE, IT'S CHANGE. SOMETHING CHANGES. >> THEY LOSE A BUNCH OF WEIGHT. >> MAYBE THEY LOSE A BUNCH OF WEIGHT. WANT TO GIVE A NOD ON THAT ONE. SOME OF THE CHANGES ARE SUPERFICI SUPERFICIAL. THEY START GOING TO WORK LOOKING FINE. >> IT'S GREEN JUICE IN THE MORNING. >> GREEN JUICE IN THE MORNING, AND YOU LOCK LOOK HOT. OR GO TO THE GROCERY STORE IN FULL HAIR AND MAKEUP. A LOT OF IT CAN BE ATTITUDE. ARE THEY MORE DISTANT FROM YOU? DO THEY FEEL CUT OFF, LIKE YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT WITH YOUR PARTNER, FEELING DISCONNECTED? OR ARE THEY MORE WARM AND AFFECTIONATE THAN THEY'VE BEEN BEFORE? IT CAN GO ONE WAY OR THE OTHER. AND ALL OF A SUDDEN, YOU'RE VERY HANDSY. I WOULD SAY MONITOR THE CHANGE. AND FINALLY, THE ELECTRONIC WORLD, TOO. IF THEY WON'T LEAVE THEIR PHONE. THEY GO IN THE BATHROOM WITH THE PHONE, INTO THE SHOWER WITH THE PHONE, THAT'S WHEN YOU WANT TO PAY ATTENTION. >> WHY CAN'T I LOOK AT YOUR PHONE? I SHOULD BE ABLE TO LOOK AT YOUR PHONE WHEN I WANT. IF YOU TRUST EACH OTHER, GO FOR IT. >> WE'RE NOT REALLY GOOD AT THAT. OUR BODIES TELL US THINGS LIKE, SOMETHING DOESN'T FEEL RIGHT. WE SHOULD ACT ON IT SIMPLY BECAUSE, AT WORST, WE HAVE TO MEA CULPA AND SAY, I AM SORRY I WAS FEELING SOMETHING AND I MADE A MISTAKE BUT I WANTED TO CHECK IN. >> WHAT ABOUT THE QUESTION THAT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT BEFORE, ONCE A CHEATER, ALWAYS A CHEATER? IS THAT TRUE? I KNOW PEOPLE WHO HAVE CHEATED AND HAVE GONE ON TO BE FAITHFUL. IS THAT A TRUE SAYING? >> ISH. >> HOW SO? >> NOT A BET I WOULD WANT TO TAKE. LISTEN, IN ONE RULE WE HAVE IN PSYCHOLOGIST, PAST BEHAVIOR PREDICTS FUTURE BEHAVIOR. >> PAST IS PROPROLOGUE. >> IF SOMEONE CHEATED ON THEIR 19-YEAR-OLD BOYFRIEND AND THEY'RE 30, I WOULD LET THAT GO. BUT IF THE HISTORY HAS BEEN MULTIPLE RELATIONSHIPS THAT LED TO INFIDELITY OR THERE'S BEEN INFIDELITY, I WOULD MIND THE STORE. BUT THERE'S TWO KINDS OF CHEATERS. THERE'S THE TOXIC, NARCISSISTIC CHEATERS AND THE, I REALLY FEEL BAD ABOUT THIS CHEATERS. THE TOXIC, NARCISSISTIC, UNEMPATHIC, ENTITLED CHEATERS, THEY'RE NOT GOING TO CHANGE. IF YOU'RE SIGNING ON TO THAT, YOU BETTER REALIZE WHAT YOU'RE SIGNING ON FOR. KEEP IT REAL. BUT IF YOU'RE ONE OF THE, THIS WAS A WORKPLACE THING GONE OUT OF CONTROL, I'M SO SORRY, I CAN'T BELIEVE IT. YOU GO INTO THERAPY, THERE'S SELF-REFLECTION, SELF-AWARENESS, YOU HAVE SOMETHING TO WORK WITH AND I'VE SEEN SOME COUPLES COME BACK STRONGER THAN EVER. IF YOU HAVE A TOXIC CHEATERS, THIS IS WHAT YOU SIGNED UP FOR,