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in many parts of Ontario and particularly in the Greater Toronto Area the availability of rental apartments is near record lows with tenants bidding on Lisa's pushing rents up and vacancy rates down one of the few growth areas on the supply side of the equation has been small landlords joining us for a look at this segment of the rental market Kayla Andrade she is the founder of Ontario landlord watch and she owned some rental units in Cambridge Ontario Ken Hale is here he's legal director of advocacy center for tenants Ontario octo for short mark wise later senior partner real estate lawyers CA LLP and joie de Gupte policy analyst with the federation of metro tenants associations and we're happy to welcome all of you to TV o tonight for a timely discussion about rental housing picture in the capital city and around the province and Sheldon Osmond our director is going to bring up this couple of graphics packages here just to show you what the picture is like across the province let's go back 20 years 1995 to 2015 there were on average in this province a little over 3,200 rental units built annually since 1990 we've had more than 400,000 condos built also since 1990 only a hundred and forty three thousand plus purpose-built rental units so you can see the difference there let's do one more board if we go buy rental units by numbers in the capital city alone last year 1700 units occupied this year a little over 2600 units delivered but what do we need annually 8,000 we need 8,000 units annually at the moment in the pipeline there are a current proposed units of 27,000 and that's going out over a few years so with all of those numbers to chew on let's just get started here and figure out what it all means Cayla get us started here what did the what story do these numbers tell in your view what I see from the the numbers and showing that there's condos because now condo rules are usually top of the RTA so we're gonna see more investors for GA meaning the residential in tendency xre and when you're getting into the residential in tenancy act and how that is people would rather get into more condos because it's the condo act would surpass the residential in tendency act so and not only that but for the purpose builds and having the condo market itself you're building more units and they're selling them off so there's more money to be made on condos than there are on the overall building purpose-built residential property and the numbers clearly reflect that ken what are the numbers say to you the numbers say to me that the government's are downloading responsibility for making sure that everybody has a place to live on to the private market to large developers condo investors people with second units and the people who actually need the housing are having great difficulty in paying that have the kind of rents that it takes to make a profit in this market so there's a whole segment of people that are being left out even though we're building a lot of units therefore the upper part of the market and the people that there are a lot of people being left out the people who need more affordable rates are not seeing them and that has to be a government responsibility and hold that money we're gonna come back to that mark what are the numbers say to you well it says to me that the condo market because of those dramatic numbers that shows that that has become the residential market is that the for most small investors getting into a condominium is the best one of the easiest ways to get into the market not have to worry too much about maintenance because it's the condo fee that pays for it and you've got a tenant that can pay you the rent and keep it going so because so many of those condos that you mentioned are becoming rental units it's not as though they're building less rental units it's the condo market is becoming displacing and becoming the new rental unit criterion for most people looking to rent today and instead of landlords putting up you know multi thousand unit buildings we've got individual landlords one by one by one by one that's the way it's going okay so we know what your view well Steve you've got to put the numbers in context bearing in mind that housing is a social need a human right we see that the government has consistently divested from the provision of all forms of housing and it's left tenants at the mercy of private providers there are good landlords and there are bad landlords and everything in between when you think about tenants it's a real scramble to find a place to live to try and make ends meet and many people are moving away from our urban centers and trying to find options elsewhere so when you get out of the menu sure of the numbers you're really looking at the big picture and tenants are bearing the brunt of a housing crisis and you think they're moving away cuz they just can't afford to live here anymore yes basically okay Ken let's figure out who we're talking about here the percentage of people who rent as opposed to the percentage of people who own either in the province or in the capital city is what what's the ratio well it's pretty close to 5050 in Toronto when you get out outside of Toronto it's there's much higher ownership in other parts of the province basically here it's half and half yeah I think it's about maybe two-thirds ownership one-third rental over the whole province I want to bring you in at this point again because you're you've been at this for a long time right long time how old were you when you rented your first unit 18 you've been a landlord since you're 18 18 years I won't ask how many years that's been but we couldn't we can assume it's more than a few how does it worked for you um I as a landlord I've been a landlord since age 18 I've never had a bad tenant and I've never had a damaged unit and they never missed out a month's rent and this is in Cambridge in Cambridge okay but if you look at it there's more of a Civ detailed screening process that I'm going to do because of the way that small landlords are treated in Ontario that's why I have to do the type of screening that I have to do so that I don't end up at the Landlord and Tenant board with a tenant that's not paying their rent or causing some type of dispute with other tenants and ruining the enjoyment of others follow-ups here you say you go through a more in depth tense yes what does that involve your looking at 45 minutes each time I talk to attendance we need to make sure that you know I can work with them they can work with us this is something of a business relationship and that's what people got to understand is that landlords are business people and we don't want to do anything that is very bad towards anybody it's a business that we have the run and the numbers mean everything to a landlord at 45 minutes you ask a lot of questions I guess say oh it's about connecting with them as a friend because we need to know that they're gonna be able to work with us we need to know that they know our rules we know what they expect out of us what's the most evasive question you ask in that kind of circumstance well number one is where you work that's the number one that people are like well you know I I'm I'm mano W or mano DSP and I say that's fine I have two tenants on Oh W and ODSP so that's not a deal-breaker right there's not a deal-breaker for me but for many many investors in Ontario it is and they are the ones who are feeling this this crunch of this house housing crisis in Ontario you want to see bank statements from people there are many landlords out there that look for being someone's you you ask for that not so much for me it's usually you can kind of pinpoint out which ones are are gonna be good with their money by the way that they talk to you and because you do this in-depth interview if you like you have not had any problems over the years you get all the answers you need ahead of time and so it works out no problems gotcha do you let me go to the other side of the table Julie did you have any problem with that kind of a more intense almost interview to make sure that everybody's on the same page going in well landlords are required to follow the law in screening potential tenants the Residential Tenancies Act we referred to earlier as well as the Human Rights Code set out grounds and the ways and means by which a landlord can typically screen for tenants I just want to do a bit of taking a bit of housekeeping I know that point about the bad tenants the ones who don't pay their rent and they abscond I know that gets bandied about an awful lot but it's worth mentioning that that's not generally the case I think most of us landlords and tenants alive would agree that that sort of thing is the exception and not the rule so let's see what I got numbers on that should we bring this up right now Sheldon go ahead let's bring them we were caught we this later but what the heck Joe we just brought up so let's go Donner right now 98 and a half percent of landlords get their rent so I guess Joey does right this notion of widespread tenant truancy just is really not happening according to the numbers that we've got here ninety percent of applications brought to the landlord tenant board by landlords against Tenace only ten percent of the number of applications brought by tenants against landlords so okay again your numbers you wanted to comment then well here's the beauty of it they're actually not our numbers at all the 98.5 percent number comes from a landlord lobby so you see even landlords acknowledge that this myth of the truant tenant is just that it's a myth while they've blown out of proportion as I said just a bit of housekeeping Steve just wanted to get it out of the way but to turn back to your point about looking for housing bearing in mind that this is and has been for a long time a landlords market tenants are often feeling the pinch trying to find a place to stay okay you want to come back on that well I tend to agree that we lose sight of the fact that most landlords get along with tenants and they because these landlords appreciate that the tenants looks after their investment in exchange and the landlord tries to be good so I agree that the ariza myth that the bad tenant it's not the norm but you have to do more and more it seems now to make sure that you're protected and so now I'm seeing landlords for example check social media you know people ask me you know tenants don't tell the truth about pets and you don't have to tell the truth about pets when you move in Ontario you could lie and say I don't have a pet bring in two dogs and then the landlords can't do anything so I check Facebook if they got a dog you'll find the dog on Facebook somewhere and some good property managers are checking people ask me how do I know my tenants not you know growing cannabis plants check Facebook you'll see if they were having cannabis parties on October 17th and more and more people are doing that as part of the screening process just be clear having a candidate is or is not illegal it'll say it is anymore it's not illegal right Weber but not grow a plant in a way that's gonna damage the property or cause the landlord to lose their insurance so there's there are ways that you can work with tenants on this issue and all issues it's just but I think that screening is getting more sophisticated as landlords are trying to literally look everywhere to make sure that they've got a tenant they can work with and grow with I want to go through another number here you know we pointed out the ratio in applications that are brought to the landlord tenant board and 90% can I need you to comment on this 90% of these applications are brought by landlords against tenants it's only 10% that are brought by tenants against landlords what do you read into that well that's really what the landlord tenant board was set up for to collect rents to evict tenants who misbehave tenant applications are applications around maintenance it's very difficult to get a maintenance application through the landlord tenant board there's no real facilitation of group applications or anything you know when we have a high-rise building with big problems each tenant has to go individually we don't kind of look at them as a group we don't you know it's there to help landlords collect their rents and to to move people out who they don't want so it's there are some tenants rights that are there to balance it but you know the extreme issue we have with extreme imbalance with the low vacancy rate and lack of units you know allows what kayla is talking about very careful screening of people and you know what very careful screening of people is a really good idea but in very tight markets it can lead to unlawful discrimination and that's kind of a concern that we might pick up on you use the word balance a moment ago let me pick up on that word here because from time immemorial there's been a debate in the province about where the balance of Rights lies does it tip more towards landlords or does it tip more towards tenants I got a feeling I know what the four of you're going to say but but humor me and we'll go through this anyway what do you think so I would like to point out that through the stats that you pointed out with how many are being brought to the landlord tenant board I have found some stats from 2010 to 2020 at 71 thousand applications have been brought to the board by the landlord and that is through non-payment of rent so that is the number one to suggest that the landlords are not getting their rent and then the tenant applications the stats trip back for that year was just over 6000 and their number one application was for tenant rights not even maintenance so we and if you look at the TWiT between the landlord and tenant board and how it's supposed to help landlords collect their rent it actually doesn't it just allows you to have a judgment and there's no way for the landlord and tenant board to enforce that judgment so landlords are now having to take the next step and file with the small claims court and now it's another cost in another situation being put out there and that's why landlords are like do we really want to go to the landlord and tenant board and pay 175 to 190 dollars for an application when we might not even see that application cost come from the tenants and tenants only are allowed to spend $50 if not have that feet wave well that's it let's also understand and Mark I'll get you in on this you know if you're a big massive company and you've got a few tenants along the way that you're having problems with that's probably manageable if you've got one unit or two units or 3 units and you've got one tenant whose problem that's a third of you know it might be half or a third of your entire stock so how complicated is it trying to get somebody evicted it's not simple and even though they may talk about numbers if everything goes well in your application without adjournments without delays you're looking from the time a person doesn't pay rents 3 to 4 months if everything goes perfectly if you are a small landlord and you got to pay the mortgage every month that's a real problem 3 is low most of the revenue there's no rent that's a problem that small landlords that are very dependent on rent don't get but when it comes to numbers as a whole you know as a lawyer I get inquiries from both tenants and landlords and I can say that the fact that I hear such animosity on both sides you know what that tells me what the law works if half the landlords are complaining in the tenon Serna complaining that tells me that on the whole the long works well but I'm not sure it's half-and-half I mean we just saw the application that's ninety ten but a lot of the applications though are you know based on non-payment of rent you know people need rent it's not really about you know the discrimination it's not about you know not treating me right its ranch you know you signing you need your paper and so I think that that sort of skews the numbers you know a landlord needs to collect the rent and so that's why you get a lot but there aren't as many trying to force people out like a lot was made of the family reason trying to get rid of the tenants through pretending to go in with your family so you could double the rent or a lot was made of these renovation reasons to evict tenants to unreasonably increase the rent those who are also extremely low the number whereas the majority is rent is the main thing and you know the overall numbers there's if there's a million rental units approximately in the province seventy thousand applications even I think that was the high-water mark that's you know pretty small city small percentage most tenants and ultimately we see the landlord's getting ninety eight point five percent of their rent I think any other business I'm not sure if your law firm collects ninety eight point five percent of its Billings I would be surprised but because they have that threat of eviction people pay up people take money out of their food budget in their clothes budget to get that rent paid because for the tenant you know the landlord has an economic setback if they don't get rent paid if the tenant is unable to make those rent payments and actually gets evicted their life can be a mess how often does that happen eviction well it's you know I we've seen it's I don't know the exact figures I'm sorry but you know the almost fifty thousand l1 applications how many of those result in eviction see we don't really have good statistics we know how many applications there are we know how many orders the Lord and Tenant board makes the Sheriff's Office is the one who actually enforces those eviction and we also it's hard to count the tenants that move at various stages some tenants when they get the notice they move some tenants move before they get the notice because they see what's coming some tenants move at different stages so it's very difficult than I think agility found that there's 50,000 arrears applications every year gives us some kind of indication of the numbers of people who might be impacted what would you add to that Johanna I would add a few more numbers funnily enough so if you look at the rate look if one of the things that Ken talked about was our vacancy rate that is the available number of units in a given market to that in a place like Toronto is sitting at the lowest it's ever been in the last 16 years at about 1% probably under that now rents for condo units and this is of course you know the kind of property that's owned by a small landlord those shot up by about 11 percent in the last year how many other classes of income earners do we know where you know their paychecks go up by 11 percent I know most tenants couldn't couldn't it wouldn't see that kind of growth in their paycheck now the reason I bring this up is because when we have a conversation about evictions it's so tempting to make it about who and how many tenants don't pay and where you know who's out a couple of months in terms of their mortgage payments but I cycle back to what I said to you before Steve this is a social need and a human right it's not even that avant-garde to say it any more I mean our prime minister said it as part of the National Housing Strategy if you remember and housing is a human right so the bigger question is what is the best way to approach this problem so we can tackle the affordability crisis and what's the answer you ask the tough questions Steve and I think you have to answer your question we've got to understand the breakdown of rental ownership so about a year and a half ago we had some data come out of this CMHC that's the Canadian housing and mortgage corporation and they tell us about the ownership structure 50% of all rentals are owned by individuals 40% by companies and about 10% by other miscellaneous types to to contrast that if you go back to the 1940s it was a hundred percent of our rentals that's what you got was the was the larger who would rent a basement or rent a room in somebody's house but obviously times have changed the landscape has changed and really what we need to think about are ways to improve public investment because housing is a human right security of tenure for tenants is obviously a benefit but it's also a public good and so the government needs to spend money on it okay you say the government needs to spend money on it we just had an election in this province about six months ago and there's a new government in town that says the books are empty the coffers are empty there's not going to be you know massive new spending on purpose-built rentals so we're gonna look for other ideas let me go to the other side of the table for a second you got any new ideas small landlords you're the solution small landlords are gonna be the solution to affordable housing how do you figure because it's about a supply and demand issue and I think if we watch anything on the news it's always about a supply and demand issue so now we're gonna go to the small landlords and we're gonna be like you are the ones that are gonna help fix us now how are you gonna fix this oh well we want you to open up your basements we want secondary Suites the province already wants it the municipalities are now putting their rules in place to enforce it which they have to be very careful on how doing that as well because you need to encourage investors into buying these homes to split them to make duplexes to even make triplexes with them use what we actually have this has always been very controversial over the years though municipalities have not wanted basement apartments for example maybe an option why not I think it's just for the safety of the people doing renovations and not having big enough windows having it more of a fire hazard but if you look at where people are actually living today we have tent cities in Cambridge we have five tent cities we have shelters that are looking for donations left range and center because they don't have the money to even keep running them and put in beds there so we need to be looking at the secondary Suites but what is actually going to get landlords to doing it they're not just gonna do it because you cut the red tape at a municipal level they're not doing it because the residential in tenancy act and the Landlord and Tenant Board is there to protect the tenants so what's going to take market a if I can add to that like the business about a human right for everybody to be able to live look you look at most young couples who want to live in downtown Toronto yeah they'd love to live in downtown Iran they can't afford to live in downtown Toronto so they've got to move out they've got to if they're buying a home by outside the core and commute and in many cases they've got to put in a unit in their basement so that they can get income to help pay the mortgage and pay the taxes and one of the reasons I think the cities are much easier about this now is they realize that many people need that extra income to help pay the property taxes besides all the other expenses so I think that to the point that was made that it is small landlords who will eventually make up and I just think that tenants should not have greater rights than owners to say I'm entitled to live in the City of Toronto cheap rents even though you can't buy a house here I can I should be able to buy cheap rental housing here I think people have to go where they can find a nice place to live for them and their family just like young couples have to do the same thing today but look all over Ontario and let's understand the big picture here Ken I appreciate that your position would be you'd like to see much more significant government investment in purpose-built rental units and and allow that to be unlawfully I get that okay hang on I know that's that that's not the question no because I I know the answer to that one already how much of a solution to this problem is what they've just described unlocking secondary Suites and that kind of thing well it's a partial solution but there's definitely some problems with this kind of housing one it's not permanent you know it's the young couple starting off in their basement and then the young couple starts having children and young couples income goes up they don't need the base they don't need the income anymore the tenants out on the street so the tenants lived there for five years that's nice they just got their kid into the school and they have to move because the landlord wants to retake occupancy so it's a constantly shifting market there's units going in there's units going out that's not helpful we have the same problem with condominiums the condominiums rented the tenant moves in they're settled there and then the markets gone up can make a profit here I can sell it and the new owner wants to move in so the tenant has to move this does not create good communities when we have people constantly being pushed from pillar to post that's why we need purpose-built rental but then we saw the minister out in front of that purpose-built rental around the corner here 2-bedroom apartments for $6,000 a month who exactly is paying that six thousand dollars a mile okay let me just let me fill the place hang on let me fill in the blank you're talking about Steve Clark a couple of weeks ago yeah Minister Municipal Affairs actually had a press conference five blocks north of here at Yonge and Montgomery just the road that's pretty much just around the corner yeah and he went to a place to say we're taking rent controls off future purpose-built rental units in hopes of spring boarding a lot of construction of that and yes there were units in that building that went for anywhere between two thousand and six thousand dollars a month now having said that that's at Yonge and Eglinton which is one of the more expensive neighborhoods you know in in the city you does anybody but it's what the minister picked to showcase I guess Paul I agree it might've been an unusual choice but but does anybody really think anybody should be entitled to living Yonge and Eglinton for $250 a month well they should be entitled to live somewhere where they can get to and from their job and not have all their income eaten up by rent payments and what that takes that doesn't have to be at Yonge and Eglinton but where is it going to be and those we need a program the federal government is talking about a National Housing Strategy that's going to provide housing for everyone the province has signed on to that you know I believe that this current government has continued that commitment to participate in the National Housing Strategy so the small landlords are contributing something but the size of the crisis is not going to be solved by these individual efforts not taking the barriers away you know they bail on the areas and I think Kayla knows a lot of the municipal barriers and how they make things difficult for people but some of the barriers are okay Ken hang okay go ahead I can definitely from what he has stated about a family moving in and then all of a sudden the landlord wants to take over and use that space again that is happening but not because they don't want to be landlords of and and want that space they're doing it because the tenants could be difficult type of tenants and that's the only way for them to get out of the market is to say I've tried it I've tested it out I don't like the way I'm treated I don't like how the rules are in favor of the tenants and not me and how this tenant can live below me and smoke and and cause garbage all over the place and parties and I can't do nothing about it because they can stay in there between eight and twelve months and the way that there's a lack of adjudicators right now in the in Ontario we're seeing longer wait times before we even get to the hearing that's not even including but the tactics that the tenants use to avoid evictions enjoy it I do have to say I it is hard to think of another provider of a service and a group that avails itself of that service that like each other less than landlords and tenants do you find that to be the case well honestly yes and no I mean when things go bad things get bad but often things work out quite well with that said I want to keep hammering home this point that we live in a landlords market I've given you a lot of numbers but let's talk about what affordability or housing affordability is supposed to look like it's supposed to be 30 percent of somebody's income after tax most right there was a benchmark that was set you know half a century ago and and I'm not sure that anybody pays that little anymore right perhaps but they shouldn't be paying you know just about everything they take in there has to be a sweet spot a spot you know I want to just respond to Kayla's point about tenants you know dragging things out and the eviction process dragging on forever causing hardship I would argue it causes hardship on both sides even tenants have the sword of Damocles hanging over their heads well I won't I have a place to stay so there is an argument to be made for perhaps hiring a fewer adjudicators to bring some peace of mind to both sides but beyond that to Ken's point finding ways to alleviate some of the barriers to the secondary rental market whether it's permitting secondary Suites whether it's under something we've pushed for at the Federation for quite a while offering training for landlords and ensuring that they are certified in order to do this business and they're checking off their you know that they're crossing the T's and dotting their eyes and and making sure they're providing an essential service these are all measures that will have a limited impact but if we're looking for a silver bullet the secondary rental suite at a the secondary rental market is not the answer we have to we have to reinvest in purpose-built housing okay can I understand this as well to be a landlord do you got a big smile on your face right now to have the landlords and secondary Suites are not being a part of the solution but what other one are we looking for right now to the government with empty pockets you know that's who they want to get going but it's still it's not the government it's not government funding it's taxpayers so we're all paying for the overall and they can't keep up with the supply so you need to start looking at other type of ways of getting that in and it's not about like condos and secondary Suites and things and and development it's about changing the system and how it runs landlords need proper tools to run a proper business and we're not being allowed to have those tools because it's so heavily government focused and controlled do you have to get a license to be a landlord yes this is starting to spread like a wildfire right across Ontario I and the other landlords in the in our group we already put it - it's a cash grab and it's a simple cash grab because if you look at the landlord licensing from one side of the province to another it's gonna fluctuate from $75 a flat rate fee up to how many like up to $1,000 and it all depends on what type of rooms and there's certain type of requirements that you have there so landlords in Toronto and the investors in Toronto they're trying to get their investments now into Windsor Sarnia Waterloo but when you start to see that there's water billing there's landlord licensing that's happening do you think you should have to be licensed at all no to be a landlord no just put the shingle out you're open for business that's how it's that's what we need and that's what we need in this in 2015 I mean of shaking your head oh absolutely I mean come on doctors need a license lawyers need a license engineers need a license everybody needs a license you're telling me that if you're a landlord providing an essential service you don't need a license it's this is a non-controversial idea to say that the if you're a provider of an essential service that you should have an a license it's the cost of doing business it's laughable to suggest that that's an impediment to landlords but you know I'm sure we're going off topic we already have a hard time now getting people with money getting into this industry putting in other stipulations and more control on them we need more investors into this and having rules of here's a house lalla put it this way tenants they will have the residential in tenancy act the Landlord and Tenant board they will have the property standards they can have their city councilor they can have their MPP and never have their MPP if the landlord is not doing their part and going ahead and make sure that they have a state a safe and suitable place for their tenants to have and the enforcement unit of the Ministry of Housing the political reality at the end of the day is that there are way more of them than of you and that's why they keep wanting that's you see they made that announcement we're taking off rent controls to try to spur landlords to create more rental units there's no saying that another government may not show up in two years just like the Liberals did two years ago and say guess what all those rental free units we're putting back rent controls and that's why you're not gonna see more of that base on that and some people say okay we'll allocate a certain number of units in a building for low-income housing okay you don't think developers have already looked at this and said okay if we're going to build a beautiful a nice condominium and charge this much a square foot but then we're gonna get government money and we're gonna allocate a certain percentage to low-income housing how is that gonna sell and they sit there with their marketing departments and go yeah we're good citizens in this country but nobody's gonna buy any of those units fellas if they could have built those units they would they're not working we can't just some sit down I got a minute I have to go the fundamental problem is the tenants don't have the ability to pay the rents that it takes to build new units in the private market and you know we're doing our best to suppress people's income keeping the minimum wage down we're freezing social assistance no more income for anybody so how are they supposed to pay these rents that it takes to get the private market to build it can't be done there has to be if we're going to properly house the people of this province there has to be public investment we should make the small landlords bear the brunt of taking care of the poorest and people with the most barriers it's a social responsibility we should all be contributing to it through our taxes to make sure that these people are housed and don't put it on to Kayla and her group solve our social problems we all have a responsibility on that note of consensus because I suspect you agree that you shouldn't single-handedly be responsible for solving the housing crisis in Ontario right you just took the words out of my mouth on that note of consensus I'm grabbing it and running in with it and saying thank you all for coming on the program tonight thank you nice to have you all here the agenda with Steve Paikin is brought to you by the chartered professional accountants of Ontario helping businesses stay on the right side of change with strategic thinking insightful decisions and business leadership are you on the right side of change ask an Ontario CPA