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let's start with what I know we agree on and that's probably most everything but I know we agree on justification and the importance of sent reports of justification that we are declared right we are made right only by the imputed righteousness of Christ he lived a perfect life he died the death we deserved and Christianity stands or falls on that we agree on that we also agree sanctification is necessary we must grow in holiness now Brian how are the two connected and what and why do you think they wanted us to sit down and talk about it there must be something that people are not quite jiving on or agreeing on between the connection the standard debate usually is are you so emphasizing justification that you are now denying the necessity of sanctification and what we would say although there are even different emphases among us is that sanctification has always properly built on justification so that if you are if we are made right with God by the work of Christ there's a necessary change that happens within us which means that we will want to live for him and it's not I'm okay with God so it doesn't matter what I do right people can abuse grace that way even the Apostle Paul it dealt with that question but the assumption is that if you talk too much about the grace of justification you will deny the necessity of seriousness about sanctification that's the problem that people pursue right so Rick what would you say can we ever talk about grace too much well if I could just say I think some of that is actually happening though because we have a generation that is reacting to legalism in our churches and the dangers we always overcorrect and I do think that justification is being taught in ways a day whereby sanctification is being defined as a little more than a tag on to justification sanctification is is it being excited about justification and biblically sanctification is a twin grace with justification there not only inseparable but they are different and they result from union with Christ and so sanctification can be downplayed I think it is being downplayed in many circles today that there is an active dying to sin there's an active pursuit of holiness there's a place for works in our life and I do think that some of our well-meaning brothers because they're responding to legalism and the excitement of justification are using at least rhetoric that makes it sound like good works dying to sin applying effort to the Christian life that it that that is legalism when that is the Christian life itself so is sanctification nothing more than getting used to your justification no it is a div that is not the right definition of not because sanctification is a it is distinct from justification and so we don't want to build justification on sanctification we're not justified with God by our performance but we also don't want to subsume sanctification into justification we we are called to sanctification as a distinct although inseparable aspect of salvation and I do think when that language is used that justification is living out our justification we have basically done away with sanctification as its own thing agree disagree well I agree Hebrews 10:14 God has made perfect forever those who are being sanctified so there is sanctification that's naturally out flowing from justification where we often end up at the point of tension is really not disagreeing over whether sanctification should come from justification but rather how the aspects of justification particularly the grace aspects motivate and empower sanctification and a lot of that is where your priorities now where I'm coming from is saying you can make two mistakes about the nature of motivation and one is saying there's only one motivation so that's not understanding that plurality of motivation is Right the other mistake is not realizing there's a priority of motivations so if you say what's the main priority well what's the greatest commandment you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart soul and strength so the Matthew 22:37 is saying if love is the chief motivation then what causes that motivation well it's understanding the vast mercy and grace of God toward you but that's that leads to motivation of love but now a good father doesn't only motivate by love a good father because he's gracious because he's loving has other motivations the prime of which is love but there can also be things like gain it'll be good for you blessing even I love you enough to warn you consequences right all of those things are loving and when we properly perceive them result in love from us and Jesus said what the consequence would be again that's John 14:15 if you love me you will keep my commands but still there's a priority on the love that is engendered by grace being the priority of the motivations not the only motivation but the priority of motivation is what I would say is whenever in danger of talking about grace too much it's just you can talk about grace in a truncated reductionistic way so what you're saying I think we would agree when a father warns his child or when God comes and says you ought to do this for it will go well with you and you will inherit the land that these are also expressions of grace I mean this is God's grace to us to motivate us in these ways and so I think my burden on this issue is that preachers counselors disciple errs deal faithfully with all of the multiplicity of motivations and don't flatten the text I sit have I don't know here there's a warning here and that must not be what Peter or fall is really saying and at the same time we don't want to go off the rails on the other way and say well well everyone's just talking about grace all the time and then people get suspicious of grace well the reason the problem the reason that rebukes work is by the grace of God right and so when when we're reading the scripture that's true that we there's a place for biblical reproof and the reason biblical reproof serve the cause of sanctification is the grace of God without the grace of God the word would never have any fruit in my life and so we wrongly dichotomize things it's all by the grace of God I think someone said holiness by grace it's all by the grace of God and we use the whole counsel of God all the all the pastoral wisdoms sometimes encouragement sometimes reproof but it all works for salvation by the grace I think we're motivation has to come into play is on something like warning and you see where people begin to divide because they say if God's gracious then he shouldn't give warnings no that's not true if he didn't love you he wouldn't warn you verse 12 but but the warning has to be in the context - God is not warning you that he's just going to hurt you because you messed up now see that's the wrong use of warning so the warning itself has to be in the context of the provision of grace not in the context of the ogre and the sky's going to get you because you messed up so even the warning has to be contextualizing grace but not done away with the reason why I like plain it put in its place the reason why Jonah didn't like warning Nineveh was he knew that God had a gracious purpose in doing it I like to say this too that the gospel is the good news not only a forgiveness of sin that I'm freed from the guilt of sin thank God that I am justification but it is also such good news that I'm freed from the power of sin transforming and and so we have a truncated gospel where the gospel equals justification and that that truncates Christianity the gospel is the whole person and work of the Lord Jesus and so we thank God that we are justified we're freed from the guilt of sin but we need to tell people today that we can be freed from the power of sin and regeneration affects a change in our lives we no longer have to live in the sinful ways that we used to your the questioner we asked you the question into the thing here what do you want to say what did we not say Kevin if you want to say I love all that I think what you were hitting on Brian we relate to God as his adopted children not as our judge I think that's what some of the the slogans are trying to get at God is not your judge yes he is our Father and as a father we can please him we can displease him he comes at us with Grace and warnings and loving imploring and through it all he is faithful to create us and recreate us and renew us into the image of his beloved son so properly contextualizing again the warnings the gain all that God is saying in the father image is not saying if you mess up I'm going to reject you right I'm a discipline you because I love you but it's trying to pull you back into my arms and what people hear is that any warning is necessarily a threat of objection so we have to keep putting both gain and warning all aspects of the grace of God to claim he'll do whatever he takes let's reclaim you for himself flows all out it's behind it our union with Christ amen your sins are forgiven go now sin no more that's the movement that's the two-step and we can't leave either of them out but the second part doesn't have this the same meaning unless you first have the free offer the performance is not the basis of your standing yeah rejection is not at threat by your performance both our understanding grace but neither denies that there are more motivations than just it'll be good for you or not good for you no God is saying the primary motivation is love for me what will it take to have you understand how great is my love for you so that you respond in loving obedience and if we love Him we do more than celebrate justification we lead lives of biblical Oba you love me you'll keep my commands for his glory out of love for him we will obey pursue the holiness without which we won't see the Lord you