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previously on the future I'm joined by mark posh and we're going to be talking about strategy brushing your teeth cutting through the strategy of strategy strategy I think you want to make my argument format why does it feel you just warming up here to forget about the labels the labels I think in misdirect us from talking about what it is this is where design can be actually an afterthought there's no black and white here in our industry that's a German is binary oh my god [Music] all right design has become sadly a commodity I've not been endorsed or paid by anybody to say that inter hurts me to say it but it's a freaking truth just like the Sun comes up in these that's the way it is and I can't go back in time I wish I could I would make a lot more money if I did can we agree on the big portion of designers become a commodity we already agreed on that no no I wouldn't do before you went all downhill I'm not gonna agree with that I don't buy that which line is still the high demand it's just a certain on a certain level it's still in high demand what you're talking is what you're talking about is really binary it's really because everything has gone downhill I don't agree with that a lot of I can I see a lot of people suffering a little a lot of high quality people suffering but it's okay I'm a challenge in a second but I want to address each one of your challenges in order in which you bring them up the second part that you said is well designed such commodity why is IBM snapping up designers it is true iBM has hired a thousand designers but very specific kind of design have you guys read the articles what kind of designers are looking for designers with design thinking as part of the pedigree period not traditional classical designers design thinking designers and they're acquiring companies that are strategic thinking there's a big difference mr. mark posh yeah and so follow up and what's the difference I just said it that what we're talking about it as the Cologne what are you in classical designers what does what does actually mean typography with lettering identity design okay those are except that what most of our audience 99% of people would understand graphic design as is classical design things that you and I were taught in school to meet design thinking is always part of the process so I can't really separate those two well maybe well maybe that maybe production artists really just care about that not production I'm talking to so if you're serious designers then it should always be part of the pocket the second part he says design it's on the rise still in demand so I'm going to ask you this question what traditional graphic designer and you can put yourself in this category to is doing better today and continuing to do better as we progress and yesterday we do you know because all the designers I know they're doing much worse today than they were back then Saul Bass Paul ran well Massimo big Nellie well it doesn't live anymore well I know but they were doing much better this Paul ran but we didn't bring that up either but well what you were doing better in the 80s worse than the 90s worse than the 2000 you see what I'm saying by training this way not this way see those are the kind of guys who really do vented design thinking I mean you wouldn't you wouldn't you wouldn't hire Paul Ram just for the execution of a logo he was the one who told keep jobs but actually what's or the logo means what the logo should depict what the logo should stand for so this is what I see as the job and the meaning of a designer to really educate a client to guide the client and walk through the process and if you're on that level then it should be actually really should be doing the world what designers today is doing better than you did a decade or two decades ago doing the same thing that they were doing if they're doing the same thing they're not doing better but you said is there very much Indian on the ride yeah because those designers that are doing well they are happy both over time our business whatever you learned at art school 10 or 20 years ago it may not be relevant today the visual part is not the driver anymore we're a hybrid we we're blend of visual and strategic strategic tasks so you know what's cool about this is usually I facilitate our clients and there are many stakeholders there's the revenue person there's a CEO there's a technology officer there's a marketing team there's a product development team and I'm trying to align them to a common goal because we can do wonderful things together it's odd but I feel like I'm talking to mark but there are five different stakeholders in mark and I'm trying to align the five marks you guys get that sense it's like there's this mark who wants to hold on to the past the market says I think I got the future and I didn't realize that maybe I have to facilitate you in finding and defining some kind of clear goal as to where you stand on what you want I know this and I'll just admit this just for myself you guys I'm gonna look right into the camera here our business in the and I went even necessarily most people not classify what we do is traditional design because my teachers like you're doing that new weird stuff right but in terms of a design service our design company within the decline okay I just want you guys to understand this it's been a bumpy road and we all felt it in 2008 when the economy collapsed literally the black hole seemed to open up and swallow all the money and it was on the brink of like game over man we lose everything everybody loses and then it's minimal recovery and it's never never returns it never seems to return and so I had a clear decision to make and for those you guys don't know blind as a service company has been doing motion design for over two decades we made a ton of money during that arc and then the job start becoming fewer and far between the budget starts shrinking the creative opportunities are disappearing because of a lot of things I want to get into that so we have a decision we could choose to complain and pine for the days of yesterday or we can figure out something else what you call evolve did you find something absolutely that's why we're here we did what did we find without it that's a new revelation and the sky opened up a light came upon my face and I bathed him the warmth when I done before we did what have you done before just pretty things yeah yeah yeah what I was taught to do what I got really good at doing and I will challenge you guys I'm just going to sound super arrogant people or anything up super arrogance I'm going to give them what they want I can outdo that most people okay I have a very strong design pedigree and I can out design most people and with all that and with an amazing team of designers here - not doing the work myself didn't matter the matter how good your design was because it's undifferentiated for which there were hundreds a substitutes for that were one or two person operations or a hundred person operation that can kill this we're in the middle you know you guys know the inverse bell curve the bell curve looks like this inverse bell curve looks like this people at the top people at the bottom do all right if you're one two person studio running out of the garage of your parents house you'll do fine if you're the 200 the 400 person company the gorilla in the industry you'll do okay to every bit of sentimental dies it's the decline of the middle class of the graphic designer and that's where we work we're not a big company we're not a little company and we're getting crushed okay and we've designed our own way out of this problem and our business has done the opposite instead of going down like this it's gone back up and for the first time in the last couple of years we're hiring new designers we're looking for new people to bring on and I haven't had to do that in a while and it's been good and I'm here to share that with you guys but for some people what I'm talking about is nonsense they think we've been doing this all along and I challenge you it's not but what do you think was strategy the driver that helps you in the in the concession or in the in the upswing okay well I will make it really tangible I guess you have you've done this before - right no one is always offering strategy or adding or keep no I'm not using strategies part of the goal because Bryce will point out to you that he's watched videos of me talking what what do we talk about strategy strategy Jose what are we doing I don't just sell anything I have to do this stuff what is this stuff how did you have a conversation with the client it's a revelation you guys I'm going to share my story I'm gonna make it relevant to you guys right now okay and we'll continue our debate if there was one is this is I can see that there are a lot more websites I'm not stupid I can see that we're not getting in that game we're making commercials commercials are going out nobody watches TV and commercials anymore so we need to do something that everybody is doing because there's a bigger market there you know blue ocean strategy right so we're gonna build a website and I have no real website design experience really have not been trained to design websites I know how they look I can do something like I can make it look good and so I asked my brother he's in Silicon Valley hey I need to do website so I think this is where it needs to be you're in Silicon Valley find me anybody I'll do anything any price whatever he's like for how little come on how much you charge for commercial I'm like four five thousand bucks pay me five grand I will build you a website okay a week later he calls him back I got you a client I sit on their board this is the hookups I told them to use my kid brother he's good and he gets us a client and it's for an IT company service company then we get it we asked all the questions what you want it to look like how does it feel who your customers demographic what are the challenges we ask the kinds of questions questions write on the board who are your competitors right and we go and design this thing and essentially what we're doing is giving the site a new skin moving things around changing the imagery writing new copy it looks better it sounds better it moves better but in inherently the same site I don't know what user experiences and I do this and the clients change things and they change things and finally we deliver we give birth to sing it's a horribly painful process that months later I look at the site it reverted back to what they had so I didn't like the project I didn't like the process and I thought oh this website thing it's not for us man it's just not we had to figure out this motion thing again I hit a brick wall and it was very disheartening we obviously did not do a 5,000 dollar project to make money I spent all the money on designers and developers making this thing it's right about this time so they reenters my life and I tell them during an AIGA board meeting dude what is it about this wet being I see that you're promoting design in Church of Twitter and all the stuff that you're doing it's so hard bill you're so lot of annoying about this stuff what is it look I'll show you I can't explain it but I will show you find me a client I will show you how to design websites is it great this is the Trojan client so if you haven't seen that video you guys check it out you'll see what happened so what Jose does is we get into room my clients don't know what we're doing I don't know what we're doing I'm literally seeing in the room like clients friends of mine I found this guy he's into this thing he's an expert and he's not going to charge you guys any more money and we'll do this thing and that is what is in the core set of videos and he facilitates the whole thing and in that moment and you can watch the videos have you seen the videos who leaves the quartet anybody using the videos do you see me in the videos not knowing what I'm doing I'm a total friggin buffoon idiot the reason why I'm not in it is because the cut immune that's that's just the whole time I'm just sitting right at not pretending this is not a plant I don't know what we're doing at all this is the first time I'm really seeing it Jose goes and facilitates he wants to know what your brand is about and he doesn't in a structured framework he asked very specific and get the answers then you have to lure your users tell me about their demographics what are the problems what are their challenges how do we solve them then he asked what do we try to get done so this is one of those things where by having a framework the right kind of questions that ask he's able to surface things that they didn't know it's wonderful when you ask the client what you know and they tell you it goes beyond wonderful it goes into delight it goes into amazement when they tell you things that they just realised for themselves for the first time and you do it in a completely frictionless way so he does his thing and the clients at the end of the rug low-level kind of whirlwind we didn't know this it's kind of interesting okay that's the end of the first chapter what I realized in that moment is I'm not a stupid guy right I mean I'm not the brightest kid either but I'm not stupid what Jose showed me was a framework on how to design a better user experience not how to design a website a better user experience and understand the brand what immediately became apparent to me was this is a framework that could be applied to anything it could be applied to anything you know when I not seen a therapist I'm not I'm not shy about admitting that how does the therapist know how to solve your problems how because they have a framework that they use to ask you questions to surface what it is that's bothering you I know they already know when you walked into the door you have a mommy and a daddy issue somebody beats you something didn't love you enough and here's the answer but if they go if you walk in first of all they make 100 bucks 100 bucks an hour and that's it thank you and you're done the problem is when they tell you mark your dad didn't love you enough your mom drank too much and you get enough attention when you're kid you're like Wawa you don't know me let me tell you my story my daddy didn't love me enough and you're gonna tell them the exact same thing it's I swear to you this is what happened okay and you know one of my talks I'd talk about this right experts ask questions amateurs give advice okay the therapist has been trained to ask you questions and surface what it is that's a root problem not a symptom and they do it in a way that you realize the answer because they've known the answer for a long time they've seen a thousand of you before trust me it's like I'm not seeing like oh my god it's like witchcraft how did you know this about me it's like because your birth order because of the age apart your family structure says this is who you are and 99% of the times it's true it's a good foundation so if we say that a therapist is an expert not everybody can become a therapist not every kid on Elance or oDesk is a therapist so what's the difference really the execution is the same it's the self-discovery part the part that makes you feel good about buying into the solution that it's the magic and that's why the marketing people in the room get paid a freaking ton a lot of money so long do it right some do not do it well my thing is and this is the good news for all you creative people out there is that you know about execution you know about aesthetics you can be that magical hybrid person if you were just willing to learn the business part the strategic part the marketing part if you can bring that together you're freaking invincible and if I was a violent person to kick this chair over and be it be done with the talk right but we're not going to do this with sarin in tables we're not it's a metaphor guys reach it don't don't do it fine you guys understand what I'm saying so this was the revelation so what I did was I looked at this thing this framework that's in front of me which if you want to call it anything it's just a series of questions ladies and gentlemen that's all it is a series the question carefully designed and I took this thing and had a conference call two days later and this was the oldest client that Daniel brewster's talked about and you guys will watch that video as well I tried it on them and I even know what I was doing so imagine if somebody said don't go to school don't get your undergraduate degree don't get your master's 3 don't get your doctorate degree tomorrow I'm gonna give you this thing read this thing and meet your very first client euro therapist today you'd say no way and they said that if you do an open honest and transparent manner you tell them this is my first time I don't have a degree but I'm going to do this for you so see how it works out and if it works out really well pay me and you do it they're blown away it's not even possible I'm telling you right now Marc posh it's not only possible I'm living proof of it and everybody in this company in that action we're heading in as a company is the result of that decision now you are also an excellent designer which is thank you which is also an ideal situation having having knowing the strategy and being able to execute the beautiful design what I see a lot though this goes back now we come back to our original reason why we're actually here is applying a strategy I think with like questions something that comes from the business side anyway so it makes it almost so easy because not easy to convince a client that no clear things needs omitting it's not easy in fact as we think no let me tell you why there's no convincing I don't convince anybody of anything I'm harming hard times you convince someone to go out you check so that's that's I don't convince them I honestly I'm swear to you guys the internet go get really angry because there's a closet a hole talk to talking about this stuff I don't convince them I just tell them you know what in my experience this is what these things cause I've already collected my money for the part that I've done if you'd like to hire us we'll be happy to I can give you referrals hire whoever you want now who in their right mind would say like wow you understand it so well you've helped to surface things we didn't know you put our needs ahead of yours you've acted in the best interest of our company advising us where and how to spend money and you're saying no strings attached why would they go to somebody else you just looked into the soul of our company you just told us things no you didn't tell us you helped us to understand things about our customers that we didn't know before and if we acted upon some of these things we actually might move the needle we might grow our market share we might close a higher percentage of business we might reach the right people okay so I'm going to give you guys some actionable things she doesn't want to be a talk I don't I mean as much as I'd like to argue with you we want to make this productive right is this and this was in a TED talk and I can't remember which TED talk it was okay if you want to get to the root which is what we want to get to and I'll get some things you can do but if you want to get the root just try this you guys just ask a client when they prescribe something we want it bigger we want it smaller we want to build a new website we want to launch this marketing campaign we want to do a new package all I want you to do is do this ask them why three times just ask why and not like a jerk is the jerk clap let's look who I like my kids like why why don't you like that but why I want to know why do we want to build a new website well we're getting to your customers why do you think you're getting for your customers oh well I don't know I'm not sure of our products very good so do you think designing a new website and solve that customer challenge why don't we try to solve the problem I'd creating a better product and let's confirm that with some research and asking your users what they think of your product let's just make sure it sounds like a good strategy I believe that's we're talking about if you just ask why you know and if you ask yourself why a couple of times you get to the truth of who you are two very powerful thing so therapists do so I think I've gone in totaled like ten sessions I think I can't remember but it's not a lot it's not like decades and I learned the game really fast I'm going to share something that I do and hope that you'll be able to do it too here's a life hack not an easy one but a life hack as you meet with a consultant a teacher of therapist anybody you can have something to learn from first thing you do is just to be present here everything that are saying you notice how like as Mark is talking I'm writing notes and I've filled up my card so you guys ask questions did anybody else right now it's Spencer did because that's how he is right because I'm listening intently that's the first thing you need to do the second thing you need to do which is much harder is trying to look at the dialogue between mark and I from the third person even though you're in the conversation I know it's super weird that's what I do okay so when I'll tell you something I'll give you an example I was walking down is it the Beverly Center Mall on Santa Monica Boulevard okay I'm walking by and there's a cosmetic store and unattractively caught my eye looked at her she looked at me for one second and tried to want to come and I looked at her for a second smile and she smiles and she says you know I want to ask you a question pulling into the store hands me off to the next person I'm like what you know can I give you a sample and then you started like doing skiing on you like dude I have and then it's like look at your eye your left eye versus your right hand I'm like okay I'm like well and you know I have a weakness I have a hard time saying no to people who are nice to me even though the total sales context and had it been a different price point I well I might have bought something I'm like how much is it she's like $400 look one Florida dollar for an eye cream forget about it I just look old okay and the whole time I was annoyed right like I got suckered into a free sample and I had to like do a 10-minute thing and you're going to tell me on this you obviously pulled in the wrong guy pulling a woman it might be okay just you're not going to get a sell off me but I marveled at the entire process as the Noida was wasn't like they got this person to pull you in they put the attractive persons I can't give your free sample some kind of question you can't say no to so the nin I made eye contact I was doomed and then they hand you off to the closer right and they don't ask you to buy anything they go to this whole process they know about reciprocity they do something for you you'll do something for them and it doesn't have to be equal and we'll give you a free evaluation and some tips on your skin I care about you room right but I'm like oh my god these are so good I need to go back home and write the script ooh what is happening to me because it's so effective except for the last part they targeted the wrong person so this is what I mean but I'm in the moment I'm wondering what's going on here's my money too abcdefg this is what is happening to me so when the therapist was asking me questions like all what is the answer that oh my god what question are you asking me why am I feeling this way and I'm making a note of it because my goal in life is not to be in therapy for the rest of my life so I'm studying and that's the best 10 times $100 I've ever spent that's $1,000 I just realized I should have said that chest I'm smarter that's the best thousand dollars I spent because that was a first-class education on how to ask questions and how to you licit the answers from your client okay mark you say this and I have the automatic response for this already and this is a very popular thing I have to educate the client isn't that sound so condescending like let me tell you about your business you successful millionaire you know let me tell you what kind of smart decisions you have to make to save you from yourself it works better by a hair okay but you guys know the root word of educate do you know what educate me it doesn't mean to put in it means to draw out education does not mean here's the market research here's my 30 years of designing experience here's my first great design pedigree here's what my design professors told me and here's the latest books from Paul Rand and blah blah blah educated educate means to draw out so our whole education system is busted by the way it means to draw out so if I take the approach of asking questions listening no objective I just wonder stand I want to try to help you it's a wonderful thing okay I have five points here here comes five points you guys the rules of collaboration led blends okay one there's five rules strategy before development we got to know what we're doing we got to know why we're doing it and for what purpose strategy before development number one so you don't do that you're already screwed to continuous reference to said strategy if you don't have the strategy there's no reference to said strategy it becomes totally subjective cool okay cool moves around a lot make it relevant relevant moves around just as much make it innovative use an eye the beholder innovation to use not innovation to somebody else three because we've developed a strategy because we continue to reference it we must then have freedom to execute because we've already boxed it into something and there are no more surprises at this point okay for we will provide fewer options of higher quality this goes smack in the face of what you're tied in school iterate 100 sketches that's BS and one of the master letter form of letter form artist dwelled young he was a fan of doing a thousand rhymes he was just he was very good at them obviously a master could just sit there and do letters because it's like a painting or a sculpture we're just trying to find the form how do we know when it's done when we say so how do we convince the client we can't and then lastly is we will present our own work that one's less important to me you follow the first floor you're pretty good okay strategy before development continuous reference to the strategy the freedom to execute and we will provide now because we have an objective measure fewer options of better quality when you guys like that nice framework so we have strategy and design combined into one solid package then oh yeah I don't wanna show gnomes there are I don't see them as separated concepts no they are not okay and you guys know before I go on another rant here is that design I mean I like Mart a new marriage definition design it's the process where you invent a creative solution to a problem I just like to define the problem now as beyond like giving a site a facelift I want to help the clients solve a business problem because then I'm speaking the same language and we're talking about the same things and I'm not the last guy to get the brief I'm the guy who wrote the brief and so now we can get into your questions is that cool you guys all right so here we go we're going to get into your questions right now when I had one question initially what my strategy was so who was asking the question what my stars you think you are asking right the particular process first strategy do you have like a static process you know for each project or do you kind of keep it home do you rather articulate to certain projects depending on you know the kind of project it is or the say the budget is there anything you know so it always starts with a question that always does amended strategy is definitely one of the first steps but we have we have a solid questionnaire we go through and it varies a little bit depending on the project it's a type of project but it always starts with a lot of questions and isn't yours ideally in person yeah I think chemistry is very important that it goes back to the therapy o'clock therapy situation it's almost like when you once you go through those questions is a better chance to connect with a client so ideally yes in person and then it's not it's a questionnaire then it's not that it's a questionnaire that gets sent out and hopefully with a steady pretty much yeah I'm a precise than discovery definition the design development process so that's pretty much the classic otherwise that's nothing on you disgusted by it huh you can discuss it like discussed it yeah well your face of musing you're not happy about doing it you just like because please tell me how to do it it's the only way I can get a client I'll deal with this nonsensical I mean look if you don't believe in it you do it you're just going through the motions and that's a problem now there are several people in our community love and Daniel that have the kit there's a $500 kit they have the kid they do the kit with the intent of trying to get something good out but sadly they don't surface what needs to be surfaced because I think they're thinking I'm ready to design I got to go through this process how sound smart and know a little bit more when I'm done but ultimately build what I want to build well that's not strategy and I want to give you guys something before we end it's not like an Oprah moment there's nothing under your chairs I want to tell you the key difference between what I understand is I'm thinking to be then what's on the board and perhaps what we've been talking about because we still have not gotten to it yet all right so we've answered your question Spencer how does mark apply and you can't do a questionnaire in my opinion you cannot you cannot you cannot say why because you can't ask why three times the question that you haven't answered if you like what do you want and then you're like why why why it seems a little feeling you have this question there where you have these specific questions you ask every time does the result ever surprise it sometimes yeah quite often at least it starts a conversation which is very important so it kind of opens up a dialogue we would otherwise not have where we would just get the brief and also it's it's something I use even when someone sends an inquiry for a poor project and I'm not quite sure whether this goes through or no but when I send them a questionnaire and have to go through 20 questions it increases the chance that they become 2 they're serious about the project increases drastically waiting you guys understand what marketing said hold on I don't accept it we all understand that good you understand what Mark just said right I think so what do you say he was essentially saying that his questionnaire is what gets them interested in designing like using him for the design my question was you said that it starts a dialogue that wouldn't have already been that would have otherwise not been started couldn't you have started that dialogue and skipped the questionnaire and got to the root cause from the beginning right I mean it's a little bit based on our experience with what board action is relevant information how to expect the brahmic line so in that regards is kind of the catalog helps a little bit to to kind of get to the core of things but again it's also serves multiple purposes ok I want to jump in because I have a reaction to what Mark said and I want to say this in the most emphatically clear way I can say it if I'm hearing it correctly well Mark said is he does the questionnaire his version of strategy merely as a sales tool as a means to vet clients if they're serious about hiring him so if you go into a question saying you are the killer well what conclusion will you walk away with you must be the killer not a very good detective to me I go in into your answer answer your question I'm always surprised and I'm not surprised at all how can I be both I'm sound like Mark Bosch I'm always surprised because I'm learning things I don't know anything about and I'm not surprised because I didn't walk in with any assumptions about what this is going to be I actually tell the clients right up front I've done little to no reading I've not profiled your company I've not gone beyond the first page of your website but a cursory overview of what you stand for because I do not want to walk in here with any assumptions about what it is that you do or what you want to do this needs to be open and it will go whatever direction it needs to go in so when they hear that first they're kind of taken aback they're like well that sounds kind of lazy is that some kind of weird excuse that you didn't come prepared but I've seen the opposite happen when facilitators go into the meeting and they over prepare it's like they're like well you didn't do this because of this right and they know they like go and call the competitors people have worked there they do all this stuff and so they're just going on a conclusion mission I already know what it is that we're going to end up at so how I'm not going to be surprised now they don't expect you to have to know the industry or know your company but they expect to have qual to ask a quality questions that's my experience right and it's totally true and and and and that's why it's to me it's very important to have kind of to be prepared in some way and have them even get them engaged in answering really important quite little bit more sophisticated and just are you the killer and so but if they are really engaging in the process if their answer is they're diving into and it's it's very intimate at some points or even then gives this gives me a sense of they're actually really dedicated and that's just fishing around and are just playing around that's why you think well there's the difference when you shared your ear story about the soap I believe you did do strategy the way it's meant to be done because you don't know about any of this stuff about first it was looked at as a commodity dollar soap it's not expensive but then for the people that actually selling into it's a luxury and it's something that we can celebrate and empower women about what it is that they do you discovered something you were surprised and that was not about whether it was your initial motivation or not about getting them serious about buying into what it is you're doing it was truly about surfacing something that they themselves didn't know and you were successful in doing that and that I applaud you for doing now the relationship you're going to have with that particular client is going to be radically different than the clients right let's change the graphics let's change this let's do something cool fun and innovative let's just do that isn't this much more in alignment with your brand whatever that means now in China Creek and in generally I must say our business has evolved in that direction and I'm really enjoying I know this is only a funny thing is the post that you put in our group seem like you're arguing for the same thing that you're arguing again my conflict is only that we see so many bad designs you know as a result of okay comprehend okay I do care because okay you're the king of design no okay okay if that design is being made I say that opportunity for good design yeah if strategy design companies are being bought up and being sought-after highly valuable well that's good news present yourself as such mmm you already got the design stuff now let's just look for what works yeah I was just wondering this is what's question that's why I wanted to talk to you about this is this a general trend if the whole industry move in this direction it's a whole industry cannot is the creative declining with the value of creative declining while other portions of strategies is skyrocketing all of a sudden so like a like lost capital o no I don't think these are mutually exclusive concept because strategy is on the right does not also mean that design is on the decline it's not a zero-sum game there can be winners in strategy and there can be winners in design there will be traditional classical designers out there who are going to do really well for themselves from now until when they want to retire totally fine I'm seeing less and less evidence of that and they're going to be strategists who do wonderful beautiful designs that are smart all that kind of stuff there's going to be one to do terrible stuff I get to choose where I want to be I'd rather be the strategic design company that understands the business needs coupled with fantastic design right well I feel like design for so many companies because it's grown so big that it's more of an implied end result and getting down to what you design and finding out the strat like strategizing what the root causes will just help you in the design process like help you design the right thing okay I feel like a lot of businesses know they need design but they don't know why but so they'll go to a design company and they'll pick the one that knows strategy so they design the right thing why would they do that if you had your choice as a client put yourself in the client shoes for a second price if you were the client and there's one company there's a bunch of shiny things but you have no understanding of how they do what they do why they do what they do any kind of results that they get and then you have another company that is a very clearly laid out process to help them surface use their pain points and they have case study after case that did that show how they understood the problem and they brought something new to the table they helped to understand something who would you pick I picked strategy well yeah that's like bringing a knife to a gunfight now let me let me go into this all right look at this guy's we're about to get really meta and we probably need to end this night like now okay we the word that I didn't write up there is collaboration right so now something okay look at this we talked about what we need to do for our clients right this is what this was all about are we doing this ourselves do we understand their their business we tell our clients they need to understand their business but do we understand their business do we understand our business are we focusing on our target audience for every one client out there that appreciates strong smart business led solutions with fabulous design there are a hundred more that don't but let's not sit here and cry over the hundred that don't let the big answers and let the fibers of the world fight over them because I'm not interested in them let's get over it just totally get over you guys all right are we looking into the competitors in our space it just apply the same framework to yourself and how are you differentiating yourself from everybody else that's out there okay there's an endless endless supply of beautiful design work in the logo identity space a folders full of them if you happen to do logo identity work what's going to differentiate you you might be better than a butt better than everybody else and unless you're talking to somebody it has a highly trained eye they cannot spot the difference right that you stretch your type at ten percent I can they can't spot that you have an extra space after your period they can't spot that you didn't use an apostrophe use of foot mark but I can but to them it doesn't matter so you are now in an undifferentiated non unique commodity and if the world is looking for business lead design solutions now you will no longer relevant it's game over man sorry to quote Bill Paxton aliens sorry just reference game over man what are we talking about here you know what we do there's I think there's only two choices that you have right now just sit Hey you get on with the program and get a piece of this B you buy yourself a big box of Kleenex tissues and you cry yourself to bed every night those are your two options and right now I'm out of Kleenex that's it now the one thing I said I'm going to tell you about and I'm not going to dive into two too deep because that's like another three hours is all of this is centered on one thing it's the user this is what design thinking is about the user and the user is not the customer it's the customers customer when we understand who they are what they want what their challenges are what it's like to walk in their shoes look through the world through their eyes this is where we find some magical things mark founded the user of the soap is this very aspirational like barely scraping by person who looks at a dollar bar of soap as an affordable luxury that's the user pain point when we understand that we speak to them in authentic way we're relevant to them in their world we appreciate them they appreciate us and keep in mind coming back to that example we were talking to a guy that their own company he is definitely not a one dollar luxury kind of guy he has a Jaguar standing outside so we could as well offer him a really sexy shiny luxurious campaign with the global classy images but it was really the selling point was the use of and that was really that would created this beautiful story that the that's now been launched yeah well the thing is you guys for the few of you guys that know what I'm talking about who are part of our tribe who understand the framework that I'm talking about there are things you can do today right now and I'm gonna give it to you hope just for free because you showed up because I like to you and you smell good okay I'm going to give it to you for free totally for free all right when when mark posh says well what are you asking these people what are the good questions what are the high-quality questions that you can ask and in fact you can come into a meeting completely unprepared would you like to know what that is would you craig like a poker players i feel maybe the timing here come on you kidding me i love up this elaborate here when you got open the door like nobody's home i'm gone all right cool all right look all you have to do is ask the person what's your goal what do you want to accomplish and you just have to listen it's really not that complicated it could be Craig wants to find happiness in his relationship and then all I gotta do is dive into that rabbit hole well Craig what's getting in the way of you getting finding happiness in your relationship that's my second question the three gold question the three golden questions all you have to do is ask those questions mark knows what I'm talking about instead of the quality of question that's important to say right what are you trying to do what's getting in the way of that and the last question is your last wide question is why do you believe that to be true and it kind of you just sit there like an idiot and you write and you listen and you know what they say oh my god you're a genius yeah yeah I know here's the bill that's all you need to do mark what do you want to be successful to be loved to be all these kinds of things what's getting in the way of that my bitterness well whatever it is whatever he's answering like well why do you believe that to be true because it's true I'm like yeah it is true trust me all right guys mark posh thanks for coming on thank you you guys for coming and I appreciate you guys coming out here and I know this took a little bit longer thanks for being such a great audience mark there's no hard feelings you and I were very good friends we I actually love mark because he helps me to figure out what I need to say because everything he does I have to respond to in very clear emphatic terms he's the genesis probably more than half the post I write there so you guys like who is Chris so angry about why he writing is like freaking mark to am I got or write the response I'll post as an article [Applause] [Music] [Applause] you [Music]