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Everybody's got the same basic wiring regardless of the age, gender, or ethnicity. Terrorist leaders, these are still human beings Hostage negotiators know how to get in and cause an actual productive dialogue or at least you're gonna think it's a productive dialogue You said the most dangerous Negotiation is the one you don't know you're in. I know what chemical changes are going on and the minute you articulate What's in the other guy's head? That's how we get in the side door Nobody in my company tries to get anybody to say Yes, I'm gonna get you to say no because I know you're gonna react differently You'll instantly begin to think about how to make something work Everybody you talked to could help you if they felt like it We prosecuted Muslim terrorists in civilian court Nobody get killed nothing blew up and the vast majority of our witnesses were Muslims who were testifying voluntarily against other Muslims How we do that by seeing things from their point of view? Don't be in such a hurry get to lay out your case Being hurry to hear the other side out. Then you begin to connect with people on a human level we Said the goal of the negotiation is not to get the other side to say Yes, the goal of the negotiation is to get the other side to go That's right They say that the human race is doomed That we have lost touch with our true nature That the media has corrupted us and that the planet has the future. I Disagree I believe that humanity is full of hope and that our salvation Lies within each one of us My name is Brian rose in my job is to listen the oldest method of learning known to man Each week I seek out individuals that are changing the world's people who are living and thinking in a different way their stories will challenge your beliefs make you question your choices and perhaps inspire you to change I Never planned on doing any of this but now I can't stop Join me on this mission and make humanity something we can all be proud of It's time for you to man up to once and for all Tell you mine who the fuck is boss. I need a fuckin answer. What's it gonna be? I Don't know what it is about this fucking sport but it attracts people that really need to do deep work on themselves I Failed in the city All these bad memories. I never really felt like I gave a fuck about me or my life. I Almost killed myself like Think about something that is going to drive you when it really hurts some kind of demon you want to fight This is not pussy man, this is Iron Man Under pressure reveals true character. What are you gonna do? I'm gonna be in Chattanooga May 20 at the woods How do you negotiate with a terrorist or a criminal well, it turns out the same way you negotiate with a businessman and that's what Chris boss is here to tell us he was the FBI lead Kidnapping negotiator for many years of his life and he spoke with people about things that really mattered and he says the most dangerous Negotiation you'll ever be in is the one you don't know you're in and he also said that negotiation is really about collaboration It's not about your way or my way by finding a third way where we both get added benefit He also talked about the danger of getting someone to say. Yes, and the power of getting them to say no very counterintuitive stuff I really enjoyed my time with Chris he reminds me we have a really hardened old FBI agent or a cop It's done the beat work and he really has but then he also talks about the neuroscience of negotiation I know you're gonna love this episode. It's packed with incredible tips I've been negotiating in business for 20 years and I learned a ton here and You'll learn a ton as well inside the London real academy We've got things happen in our broadcast yourself course Speak to inspire and of course the Business Accelerator and you can take our free courses at London real dot TV Here is a little bit more about it London real doesn't stop when the conversation ends. You see, that's when we get started Because everything begins with a thought and then comes the action The London real Academy is our global transformation platform here. We bring together thousands of students from over 75 countries Whether you want to build a profitable business from your passion or learn to speak to inspire or broadcast yourself with your very own Podcasts or accelerate your life to become a high-performance person We have the online accountability course and personal mentoring program. That will make your dream a reality Join us and will take your life to the next level together Our next accelerate of course is starting soon This is London real I am Brian rose my guest today is Chris Voss the former FBI lead international kidnapping negotiator Who handled more than 150 international hostage cases and spent three years investigating the first bombing of the World Trade Center you are the co author of the best-selling book never split the difference and the founder and principal of the Black Swan group a Consulting firm that advises fortune 500 companies to perform complex negotiations Chris. Welcome to London real. Thank you, Brian I'm happy to be here. Yeah, I like how you socks almost match. My book to hate was that on purpose? Yeah, it's not on purpose, but I'm glad you noticed you know, I want to know what's it like to be in London and you know, are there any Negotiators from British times that you might admire that are from this country. And what's it like being yer, is that it a different vibe? Socially and without effect ago she ations differently cuz I know you're doing some consulting while you're here now, you know We drive at human nature stuff so everybody's got the same basic wiring in there would our neuroscience brothers and psychologists would call the limbic system and It's it's an awful the analogy. I like to use all the time is it's like the respiratory system Everybody's got a respiratory system that operates on the same rules Nobody's got a limbic system the emotional system operates on the same rules. So things kind of interesting about it is Bias, you can if you could control your breath you'd say I you know, I'll hold my breath And you can you can control your emotions from about the same amount of time You can tell yourself to calm if you're upset you can tell yourself calm down calm down and that will last for as long as you can hold your breath and then emotions kick right back in and Hostage negotiator. I just know how to get in there and massage that occasionally So we're all humans. Basically, we all behave kind of the same way in the same patterns regardless of the age gender or ethnicity Okay And you're teaching businessman here But is a businessman any different from a kidnapper or a bank robber or a gang member when it comes to negotiations business may get upset more They're more emotional than the terrorists are why is that you know, it's kind of crazy But it's actually really true business people have more stories of getting screamed at and people getting upset because both sides Are sort of on raw emotion You put somebody in the middle of that that can dial somebody's emotions up or down right away You're not gonna get upset with me and so hostage negotiators know how to get in and cause an actual productive dialogue Or at least you're gonna think it's a productive dialogue Immediately, you're gonna feel listen to you stop people yell Because they don't feel like they're being heard Like my first job is to make you feel like you're being heard so you can stop yelling When people yell and swear, is that because they don't have power Is that kind of a sign of weakness sometimes like when I see parents yelling at their kids? It's it's almost a sign that they're not in control sometimes. Yeah. Well, it's all fear. It's it's all for your base They're afraid of something one way or another, you know parent yells at the child It's more they're afraid that the child is gonna be on the wrong track and they got a vision in their head disaster of the if this child keeps his behavior up, you know, you're not gonna learn you're not gonna be Educated you're not gonna give it a college degree. You're not gonna do this. You're not gonna do that The human brain is wired to be overly negative. Okay, and so one way or another That's what causes us or if I yell at you. It's not because I feel powers but because I feel urgent see And it's something as silly as if you start start yelling at me The first thing I might say is it sounds like this is really important Well, that was the first Message you were trying to get across. I thought I needed to understand it was important. So you'll immediately calm down. Okay, gotcha Nice. All right, then I know we're gonna go through some techniques and some things that people can use in their everyday lives because you said the most dangerous Negotiation is the one you don't know you're in right and we're in negotiations all the time that we're not aware of, right? Yeah, I know I'm definitely in negotiations with a lot of people at times that they're not aware of and so I want to talk about that I want to hear about your history with bank robbers and kidnappers, but I wanted to kick off and talk about robbers We got to talk about my in-laws. Oh, yeah, we'll talk about that to you right on kids as well, right? Probably tougher. I wanted to kick off and talk about Trump with Kim jong-un in North Korea I know you wrote an article about that, right? But I wondered if you could just break down what you see as the negotiation tactics between those two gentlemen even over the past year and I know you wrote an article about it and maybe you can even say what you see as With Trump as a negotiator again. We've never really had an American president. It was kind of a businessman first So it's a different angle different priorities Different unknown unknowns as you talked about. What did you see him doing successfully or unsuccessfully I was so surprised initially, you know all the name-calling early on and the fact that it ended up in such a good place okay, so he called him rocket man and Kim called him kind of rational stuff that surprised you that didn't seem like a tactic that That ended up in such a great place. Okay, but then you know now that we're looking at it I mean both of these guys are sort of the classic aggressive negotiator the world kind of splits into three types One of them is a natural-born aggressive slash is sort of that happens to be my default type. Okay aggressive assertive is one type It's any other to our well, it's it's fight/flight make friends The caveman response to threat was if they saw if the caveman saw something he didn't know what it was He's either gonna fight it he's gonna run from it. He's gonna try to make friends with it Those were the three cavemen that survived. Okay, that's how our emotions are wired And those are three kind of types of negotiation times negotiators Okay fight flight, although some would say fight flight make mate, right, but we fight flight make friends Okay, and Trump's a fight guy. You know, I'm a fight guy. That's my natural born type the other thing too is the world splits pretty evenly into thirds no matter whether you're from whether you're Asian whether you're African whether you're Latino whether we're view from the world splits pretty much evenly into thirds We've seen it enough. We tested it enough that we're pretty satisfied with that Okay Is it most likely the two people involved in a high-level? Negotiation won't be the flight type or it could be the flight type, you know, if the world breaks evenly into Thirds then one out of only one out of three times as your counterpart gonna be the same as you in Government most are not fighters heads of government most of them are make friends or Flight analysts very analytical. They suit conflict is something to be avoided even our leaders most government leaders are They got there by compromise. They're thinking about their career their image long term things, right? Okay, so it's already rare that we got a president. That's the aggressive one. That's an aggressive. Yeah, okay We've had a few in the past Do you? But not with the same Xterra me. Ronald Reagan was a fight guy, right but more Teddy Roosevelt fight guy waters You know speak softly carry a big stick. You're talking about carrying a big stick your fight guy. Okay All right, so watching these two behaves started off with the name-calling Then we had kind of a negotiate a meeting that was on then it was off than it was on You saw the way they behaved with each other and then you saw the way they both concluded it afterwards What are some of the elements you see there in negotiation? Well, not just the elements in this negotiation, but it's also a preview of the future in a number of different ways They they got they got into details right away I mean I think both sides realize that if I let this get too far out of control if I let the other side start to backtrack and renege on promises or Not follow through this is gonna go bad. I'm gonna look stupid, right? And I saw President Trump and his crew, you know The team is team of core advisors around them like Mike Pompeo the other people that I think he's listening to him They're saying Mike Pompey was one of the main ones they realized that this could go bad in a hurry, sir They're not gonna let it get an inch out of line. And that's why he initially said, you know, this could go bad You know if they don't follow through we're not even gonna go to Singapore. He's signaling the other side look You know don't backtrack I'm not even gonna show and in he said he also said look I'll know in the first first few seconds that I'm there whether That's gonna do any good. Okay, which is really easy signaling to the other side like the minute. We think this is going sideways We're not gonna let you make us look stupid We're telling the world That we're ready to back out of this in a heartbeat if you if you don't follow through if you if you mess around with this at all, which I Think it's it's a in this instance. It's a great focus on implementation And it'll be the one time that we have the best chance at causing North Korea to stick to their promises Okay, so that's a good tactic on Trump's Park I think I think it's phenomenal because it were in a way if there was no meeting me might have said differently but an impressive Tactic, but probably only one that he could have pulled off as an aggressive guy. Yeah with the and also with this focus, I mean Previously American. I don't know what's wrong with American presidents They don't want to dignify the dictator by showing up and sitting down, you know they're worried about losing face or Then they're what they're worried about is a previous history of North Korea making promises and not following through with them Yeah, they look stupid and then the whole meeting goes in Kim Jong Un's favorite. Yeah, it's all nonsense Now Trump has always been kind of this profile. I'm an erratic guy You know, he's also got a big track record with his business and with buildings with his name on there So he brings a lot of baggage to the table. Maybe that is good for him Is that something you think he calculates because if you're dealing with someone that's erratic, you know It could be an upper hand in negotiations Asians, right? Well, he's erratic but he's you might refer to him as heretic, but he's not without patterns Somebody can be erratic and be eminently predictable. Okay Nobody's surprised by any invite that he tweets nobody, you know He keeps doing the same thing over and over again people surprised by it. That's ridiculous. He's he's he sticks He's true to his form. He's true this type. He does he continues to do the same thing which at this point in time He's like this. This is a pattern that's got me this far It's silly for me to change at this point in time People wanted him to be a different guys president in the United States He's like, why do I why do I change from my pattern of success up to now? That's just in his thinking that's silly Yeah, and two years later people are starting to think he's crazy like a fox. I mean people are starting to admire What he can get done even though no one agreed with or understood the politically incorrect Tactics that he did it but it's starting to look like there's a method to the madness And yeah, exactly and what he can get done which she sort of negotiator has, you know, and I did this myself, you know We don't burn bridges we bomb them so who explained that well you you aggressive assertive negotiator will have a tendency to hit a few home runs in a given area and then no one will talk to them anymore and They then at that point in time, they can't make nobody since nobody will talk to anymore. He can't make deals anymore. Okay? now what the advantage he's gotten in foreign policy Rome and we're gonna my prediction is North Korea isn't gonna be the only success he's gonna have in foreign policy because you know It goes to North Korea. He takes this approach and he starts beating people around But there's two things that's different than any other American president first is you know, he's willing to get in there himself so the other side wants to talk to the American president and They're gonna cut a deal in North Korea. Now, the Iranians are seeing this and they're thinking if North Korea can cut a deal with Trump I bet we can - now the other Added element that people tend to ignore is no American president tries to do anything in foreign policy-wise until the second half of their second term and Every other country in a volatile area on a planet knows this I was in Ramallah where the government for the Palestinian organization is in 2008 right after Obama got elected and The leadership there said out God we hate this because it's going to be six years before anybody tries to do anything in the Middle East because no American president will touch a foreign policy issue till the second half of the second term What did President Obama did didn't try to do anything foreign? Diplomatically until the second half of his second term by then The relationship with is really been poisoned to the point where they're like where can we go? We got to go to Iran and then an American president looks desperate and the other side knows That all they got to do is wait till the last minute and Americans will capitulate because the clock is running out on them President Trump is not it's not wait sticking around And he's not putting himself under any deadlines cuz he's got plenty of time, right? So these guys know the clock is not working against him But they're very encouraged because he's got he's got the backbone to go into foreign policy in a big way Early in his administration and no other American president has done that and I think Iran Even of Palestinians everybody's gonna be encouraged by that interesting. What do you rate him as a negotiator from 1 to 10 Well, isn't it he's a he's a he's a prototype classic assertive, right? But is he good? He's good at that. Okay He's good at the deals that it requires a baseball bat to get the deal done But eventually people get tired of hit and getting hit with the baseball bat Which is interestingly enough, which publicly is a baseball bat guy But privately sits down and suddenly he's buddies with people and suddenly he's chums with kim jeong-hoon. Yeah He's a nice guy. Like, you know, we had a good time with him. I really genuinely means that right I think he does Nicky does too You said in the book that it's someone six times more likely to make a deal with someone if they like that person Likable is a huge. So if you don't have to change your position that crazed a lot more about being likable I mean, that's great I mean It's a crazy thing to know it's that much Because technically you'd think that Kim would be thinking about a deal for the country for the next 100 years Maybe even for economics, but the last thing he'd be thinking is is a personal relationship But because you know the max that'll be is six years and yet it has such a bearing because we're emotional creatures. Right, right That's why you're still in business because you're teaching people how to tap into that. Right? Yeah. We're an analytic society You know, we like to know the numbers work, but when it comes to negotiations that goes out the window Well emotions come in the window. Okay and how our brain reacts and see the other thing about being likable. That's that's a strategic advantages You're also up to 31 percent smarter in a positive frame of mind so if you're if I'm likable, you're gonna be in a better mood and Not only will you think of better ideas in our negotiation you'll also be more inclined to put them on the table for me Because you were smarter and you like me. Hmm, so I'll be smarter because I'm in a better mood What I'll be smarter cuz I'm in a better will if I smile at you? Okay, so I actually I hit your mirror neurons It's an involuntary response. There's a chemical change in your brain and your brain capacity actually increases huh? It just work when you smile All right, so you're seeing some things now The fascinating thing is when they finished and you talk about this in the book as well these concept of unknown unknowns So what people go into a deal together and say it's something that's ultra simple Like I'm going to buy something at a store and the price as this and the product is this and you think there's nothing else to negotiate about when in fact There's all of this unknown territory that people can cut deals here and there and people can walk out extremely satisfied even if they paid double or Extremely unsatisfied even if they sold the product Kim wants to go back and said I did this and Trump wants to go back and I said and I did this but Talk to me about this concept of these unknown unknowns because they're motivated by different things. Right, right Well, you know and it comes it's like it's really the unknown unknowns or the overlap of the unknowns Now what the hell am I talking about when I say that you're hiding cards? Every negotiation I walk to the table I get stuff. I'm not telling you every negotiation Everything with me and my kid trying to get him to go to bed. Right, right, right there There's stuff that you're thinking about that's valuable to you and same with him the kid everybody Yeah, so I'm thinking that that the last thing I wanted to do is bang his head on the ground until it bleeds So he's got a card on me And then maybe he's thinking if dad could just let me watch the movie and go to bed Then I'd be happy to go to bed. And so we both have these maybe unknown areas I don't know if I've explained in that right Where if we knew that we might be able to have power over one another or come to a better deal? Well, you're always thinking about what's coming in the future - okay Like you want your kid to go to bed because you want your kid to study You want your kid to be healthy you want kid to maybe you want you kids to play sports? Maybe you want maybe you have a vision for where your kids life is going Your kids got another vision But there's stuff in there that you there's an overlap but what you a kid like sports kids want kid wants to be happy kid wants things Maybe the kid wants things in his life that he's already thinking about his little kiddies Imagine being an ass right? You know, who knows what's in their head? But you want to know what's in their head because everybody's got something that they where they feel their life is going You know, what's the future look like what I hopeful. What do I want to have fun doing? Okay, so you play about future expectations from both parties, and I'm we work our word back Okay, not necessarily the present kind of short term wins. You're talking about kind of the future Yeah, why you want your kid to get a good night's sleep Yeah, I guess it is because how it affects the rest of them how fixes we can't fix their schoolwork How fix their life how it affects how they interact with the other kids how they socialize I mean, you're always thinking about where's this going? What's this? What's gonna happen? How does how is this how is my future being built? Whether it's you or your kid? Okay, so knowing that when I go into a negotiation with anybody How can I maximize that knowledge whether it's about me or the other person involved? I'm an Allen I'm gonna I'm gonna try to tease out what's in your head about your future Okay, you know and then I see I need to know What you see in your head and where you see things are going And I and I can't change that until I know what it is and we and we've always got this we've got always got an overly negative view because That's the way we're wired We can't we can't help ourselves and Daniel Kahneman won't won the Nobel Peace Prize in behavioral economics for pointing this out to the world That we're overly negative and how does that manifest it? So Lost things twice as much as games if I take five dollars from you. It's gonna hurt twice as much as If I give you five dollars And seventy percent seventy percent of my decisions are made to avoid loss But most businesses. I'm pitching your game. Here's how this is going to benefit you Here's how you're gonna be better off. And your first thought is gonna be like, here's what I stand to lose Hmm and so I go in through that side door and it's a much faster route Because you'll do the deal with me as soon as I can as soon as you as soon as I get rid of the obstacles What are you afraid of what do you what are you worried about losing? We're talking to an energy company in Texas just a couple weeks ago They're talking about and as crazy as it is, they're still discovering new oil fields in Texas one of the last big oil fields They discovered there was in 2008. I would have thought they stopped discovering oil in, Texas 50 years ago, but 2008 they one of the biggest oil fields, they were found in Texas. What does that mean? That means they're still buying land from Texas landowners and this Texas landowners not selling this oil company their rights to his land and They're following this guy around they're waiting for him in the gym. I mean, they're trying to show him That they can be trusted What does that mean? They're trying to overcome mistrust but they're pitching him with how much money he's gonna make every step of the way which is what every other oil company pitches a Guy and he they were just hung around long enough that finally he got the message that they weren't a fly-by-night operation And then he could trust him and they cut the deal But if now that they know taken my approach instead of taking six months to get past his mistrust we can get him past that mistrust in a week how By under by saying right off the bat. You know what? We probably seem like everybody else that's pitching you these get-rich schemes and from your position We gotta be hard to trust because we look like everybody else Because that's exactly what he's saying in his head. Right? And I didn't you articulate what's in the other guy's head then all of a sudden they go like Something about you I like I don't want it And that's how we get in the side door, right? I think you say if you if you try to call out a negative that's not there You won't plant it which is I think you're saying there, but if you try to deny a negative That's not there Then you plant that the two millimeter shift and it's crazy because everybody's used to denying negatives because that that old guy if we had taught him you might have said You know what? I don't want us to look like everybody else I don't I don't I don't want you to think that we're like every other Salesperson right and that's when the guy goes you're denying it. You must be like them Otherwise, you wouldn't deny it. They've got reaction is you deny what you're afraid of? But when you say, you know, we probably look like everybody else Then you then Now suddenly, I look up accountable2you. I Look honest. I look fearless to you. Hmm What's the next statement after you say that? We probably look like this big oil company that wants to come in and muscle you over and squeeze you out of a good deal What's the next line after that? Well, then it's a it's a little bit of a dance at that point, right? my next line is this I Gotta shut up. I got to read you. I gotta let you react you're gonna tell me one or two things Either I'm on the right track and you need to hear more Of me defusing the negative or you're gonna relax a little bit, you know, like, you know I don't know and then you're probably gonna say look here's what's important to me Everybody else wants a 99-year lease You know I get kids I get a worry at work or worry about it, right? You know, i-i've just opened a trust that I'm moving my assets into You're gonna tell me what you need to make the deal. Okay? And at that point in time now You're gonna know the next thing you're gonna do is You're gonna watch me to see if I actually listen to you, right? Is there an article that I saw a few years ago? That cheap market again in charge of marketing for Facebook said he hated dealing with people from Hollywood Because they all sit down they say what's keeping you up at night and then don't listen to the answer, right? So heated up perfectly the guy's about to share the unknown and they're busy not even listening. They don't even listen They're thinking about their next move Maybe yeah, or they're gonna they're gonna they're gonna pitch what they came to pitch no matter what he says, right? Okay, interesting talk to me about silence and the use of silence You just used it there on me Right, but sometimes it's not the right thing to do because people they react differently to silence, right? Well, yeah, we got to watch how we react to silence. There's some some relationship-oriented people They signal anger by giving somebody the silent treatment so they will misinterpret silence and They will say silence. Yes sighs man. They're upset. I got to talk. Well, in fact the other side might be trying to think So silence is a dynamic in order for it to be effective. Hence the time effective pause you got to read the other side in the moment and so I'll shut up and you're gonna you're gonna give me massive amounts of information as To how you're reacting. I'm gonna see a contemplative look on your face you know, I'm gonna see a go on look on your face or There's some people that are really good or holding their face, but can't hold their hands. Mm-hmm And we see that highly analytical people will keep a complete stone face in Your hands or their feet or start to move? Okay. What's the biggest tell for men? Well tell is context. Okay, and that's why I need to talk to you long enough to know the Context and and what am I talking about? They're there. What I'm really looking for is the way of polygraph works Is this not trying to pick up your towels? It's trying to establish your baseline What do you look like when you're telling the truth? You're gonna lie fifteen ways. You're gonna tell the truth one way So my small talk is really designed to get your baseline on what you look like when you're telling the truth What'd you have for breakfast today? You know, what was your commute like in today? You know, how many kids have you got? the stuff that your turn they stuffed up the polygrapher ask you a bunch of baseline questions and then any time you deviate from that if I you know, if I say look what's really important to you and you're like Let me break an eye contact break an eye contact looking in a different direction Chances are you've probably got at least four different ways that you signal discomfort lying is just a means of discomfort Now if I get a tell out of you, the other thing I got to do is not go But what I really got is that Association or let me know, you know makes everybody uncommon - makes everybody uncomfortable, okay, but I'll say Seems like something's bothering Me But it's probably gonna be hands related Moving feet or legs looking away. I mean there will be some basics, right? Right, and then we were the construction company yesterday and one of their highly analytical guys His - is his his signal is just that his eyebrows come up Now when his eyebrows came up one of the other people in the training misinterpreted that that he was insulted Because we were talking about his particular type in every action And his eyebrows came up and the other type said What about that bothered you because he thought it was insulted and he just kind of went ah, you know, I don't know and then I came back and I said and I said seems like you're uncomfortable and He said, you know really I was just really thinking about this is somebody told me before this was one of my big issues now there was two completely different responses there and I knew Somebody asked him a question. He gave a very guarded answer Now we need to gather information. I didn't ask him a question I said you know seems like that made you think about something it seems like that bothered you and then BOOM floodgates of truth-telling are opened up by my Observation because the question put him on guard where my observation of his reaction sort of bypassed the prefrontal cortex Went in the side door again sudden It's like wow what he wasn't insulted by Was he found it intriguing? because he got some coaching feedback that that was one of his issues and he was trying to fix it and It had been called out in the conversation and instead of being offended by it He was actually reacting very positively. So you also have to be concerned about what your interpretation of their tells are They might be lying They might be reacting really positively you got to pull out of them what's going on behind their head without Automatically assuming that it meant he was uncomfortable and that was a negative thing. He actually really the observation, okay? So yeah, you got it. You got to stay with people in a way that you don't go. Hah Because then it drives them back are all negotiations really therapy Yeah, if you're if you're great negotiator because the other side is gonna want to talk to you even more They're gonna want to be honest with you. They're gonna want to tell you what their unknowns are They're gonna want to tell you if I if you're gonna want to tell me what you're hiding It's yeah, it's kind of gotta be a therapeutic experience right and you're not going to and just to be clear I mean it's in everyone's interest to kind of open up and show each other the cards or it's not like I'm gonna get you and then I'm gonna win but It really I mean is it really in both parties interest if they can discover their each of their own knowns? Yeah, because it is because it depends upon whether don't you take yourself hostage, but first of all the best deal possible We both gotta show our cards because we never know how those cards overlap and We'll never get to the best deal we could possibly make Unless we open up Now maybe we'll make some acceptable deals. Maybe we'll make survivable deals But without opening up we cannot maximize the opportunity and then that that requires trust Let's talk about trust and like some of the I probably the big moment of your career Well, you you put it on the line. Everyone was watching and that was the first bank robbery So tell me about that situation tell me about bank robberies in general actually you know in the book you kind of talk about the history of Negotiations, but I think it's more negotiations in a real-time audio medium right when we're talking about what happened in the 70s and I think that's really interesting because you know Negotiations have been going on since the time of Genghis Khan I'm guessing they would send someone in I even think in the Iliad like they're sending people into the gates and they Negotiate but this whole concept of a real time on the phone negotiation is new and that's kind of what you specialized in originally, so I don't know If you could tell me a little bit about that and then the situation you were in and what you learned on that bank Robbery day, cuz that's pretty unique. Yeah, well bank robber in Brooklyn, you know six thousand years ago working early 1900s 80s 70s Banker I was in what was a bank robbery it was It was in 93. Nobody's in 93. I was I was crazy. It was crazy stuff that happened that year It was nuts in 93. Okay. Yeah Yeah, that was crazy. Was that World Trade Center bombing? Yeah. Okay. Yeah They rid the first one in the parking lot in the parking structure. So there's banks in Brooklyn I didn't know that first of all, okay, there's trees in Brooklyn is banks at Brooke. Right, right so first of all real quick on like Hostage negotiation and those kinds of things that's a fairly new phenomenon, right? Relatively speaking. Yeah hostage negotiation per se was invented At about in about 1972 as a result that would trigger across a law enforcement world war the Munich Olympics Okay with these is the Palestinians in the Israeli air, right? So 72 in Munich As I remember, there's a great movie called one day and one day in September Yeah, and so as I remember the Germans were kind of they didn't want to project a lot of force at that event And they did want to look like a police state for the hangover from World War two, right? so they're probably a world a bit lacks and then it was the Israeli wrestling team or something that got its really athletes a Number of them were wrestlers, right? Okay and taken hostages and then on top of all that the Olympics was going on There's news crews everywhere real-time video feeds. It's insane. They're insane. And so that's like one of the first times where there's this real-time Multimedia kind of a negotiation process. Right? Right, right and and and that's a phenomenal if you're in the terrorism and great insight into the Palestinians also because they they interview the surviving Black September terrorists and he talked about You know growing up in a refugee camp and feeling like a wretched refugee which man it was an identity issue Which is what in what it is for everybody in every negotiation how does this affect who I am as a human being and that's how these guys get into this because He says I I grew up feeling like I was a wretch wretched refugee And becoming a terrorist gave me an identity And then you begin to understand that these guys get into that then then they get into the hostage-taking in there hadn't been negotiations at the time and the Germans are trying not to use force and It was just one train wreck after another and resulting in it. Just a horrific horrific incident that that the German authorities Almost pulled it off with a little bit of command and control they would have they would have pulled off the rescue at the airport But their command and control fell apart and their did their discipline of their assaulters They had they had some police officers that were waiting on one of the Jets that the Palestinians were supposed to board to leave Munich And at the last minute the salt team on the jet took a vote to abandon their posts I mean it's insane They might have pulled it off if those guys hadn't abandoned their post knowing what you know now about both sides How would you have negotiated that I mean again? If you already know that information about these Palestinian guys, I mean that can be a very powerful unknown Absolutely, and there also I think people forget and maybe you could talk about this too is that they're in a situation they didn't necessarily Design, they sure as hell didn't emotionally prepare for what's happening They let alone in the first minute let alone 30 minutes or days into it. I mean, this is all adrenaline Madness, they're probably scared. Yep Their result they they're reverting to be in humans in the midst of this It's the interesting thing in a study of terrorism over the years terrorist leaders big problem is the cannon fodder they send into these are still human beings and it's still wired the same way everybody is and they still have the emotional system that everybody has and They know that as a human being you're gonna get scared. There's you can't override that system It's gonna continue to function and that's exactly what happened to those guys They thought they were gonna get out of there and in fact Some of them did you know one of them? Hats off to the people that did that documentary because they tracked down and remaining Remember Black September and put them on camera and interview. Oh, wow. How do you pull that off? Because he's still a human brain Right, and he still wants to talk about still once that everybody wants to talk if you're alive You want to talk if you're in a business deal you want to talk? You just got to understand how to unlock somebody from talking Okay And so knowing what you know now how would you have approached that? negotiation if they would have if they woulda just had a little bit of command and control and There there are some situations where you got call in a SWAT team Right and at that point in time if somebody wants to leave and the Palestinians wanted to leave they wanted to escape they're telling you loud and clear they want to live and That gives you the edge Mmm, and at that point of time we start talking to them about how their actions are gonna help them look or if they want To live. The other thing they want to do is you want to be heroes? Everybody wants to be a hero Everybody wants to be immortal an athlete wants to be in a Hall of Fame what athletes want more than winning Championships is to being a Hall of Fame And you begin to understand what people want that makes them immortal Then you can talk about whatever it is. That makes them immortal Okay And also from a law enforcement perspective You can open up holes in their game open up gaps in the plan where they might agree to something They wouldn't normally agree dude, that will give you a tactical advantage, right? Okay, interesting. So people she doesn't watch that movie they basically Indicated they wanted to live wanted to get the airport and then it kind of all went wrong there So it's grateful on the watch. Tell me about the bank robbery. And by the way, you're former SWAT guys. You kind of know that That side of it which is probably makes you a different kind of negotiator than other people No one is like on the ground. But what happened that day? What did you learn? What were you nervous? And how did you get in that situation? Well, um, I wasn't nervous I mean but by that point of time I've been doing the process enough that I was comfortable with the process Like and you don't have been practicing Well, I did practicing but my real life practicing had been I'd spent a lot of time on a suicide hotline Which is real life emotions. Okay, and so I knew how powerful this stuff was walking in a suicide hotline You got to talk somebody down off the ledge figuratively literally in 20 minutes or less Wow And I remember when I first got there. I'm like 20 minutes How's I gonna work, you know on TV they're on phone for hours I said no If you do this, right you you get you'll get you'll be done in 20 minutes or less and it was true And that's why you know our analogy in business the application of this stuff saves time I mean I had one of my students say this, you know tactical empathy saves time. So we get to the bank buy time They hand me the phone. I'm like, I'm just gonna put my process on these guys. I mean, he's a late-night FM DJ boy Any guys gonna calm down and he did you got a phone line to him all that would happen on the phone Yeah, okay, and they have they went to rob it. They didn't plan on the situation three guys We didn't know at the time there were three two and inside the getaway driver stayed on the outside the ringleader plan on robbing the bank He told the other guys they were gonna rob the cash machine So they thought they're only gonna get as far as inside to rob the cash machine that the insane idea was this guy actually Ran a cash courier route So he knew where the cash machine was he knew how to get into it He convinced these guys that since he had all this information they could get it They could avoid the camera that took pictures. He could disable everything they could get in and out clean They could take all this money. Nobody'd ever find him what he really wanted was a money in the vault And he didn't tell anybody that till they got inside the bank and they pulled out a 357 started waving around took hostages Everybody was surprised Even a guy that followed him inside and and then so the back they tripped the bank alarm Passerby sees what's going on side. The getaway driver on the outside was kind of like feet. Don't fail me now He got out of there. Okay immediately we show up at the bank. We get the bank surrounded The guy inside is actually the classic CEO negotiator Classic see, you know, CEO negotiator pretends like he's powerless Use nothing but plural pronouns Example that would be said, you know, oh, they're all these other guys in here I got all these other decision-makers, you know, I don't have any power that I'm this bank Robber said, you know, I'm scared of the other guys I'm gonna have to get off the phone cuz they're gonna catch me on the phone with you and then they get off the phone He was completely in charge I'm a business the most influential negotiator and the negotiation team on the other side if he comes to the table He's gonna say, you know, we got all these people in my company then I'm accountable to you know They're I don't I I'm only the spokesperson but you know I've got a board. I gotta talk to I've got all I've got all these people who just completely constrained me Okay, that's not Trump style, but that it's not Trump stuff. That's the guy who's his power Okay, because he is powerful cuz he's got he's the last word if the decision-maker comes to the table They're very cautious about how they come to the table The analogy with Trump was although he looks like the decision-maker. Look how cautiously he approached Singapore once the deal was set He cautiously said I'm gonna know what's inside the first minute whether or not this is a legitimate negotiation I'm gonna know if this is going sideways he he had and then he had people signaling this form He had all his people in what we call hardwired control He knew the conversations that were going on in advance he had all those people in advance saying if this goes sideways we are out of here the minute we smell it and That's how he maintained control to keep stuff from getting backed into a corner. Hmm And of course, what's he end up doing he goes, he makes all these pitches He shows him a video movie which evidently appealed to the counterpart interesting, huh? And then also that research get out of there as quickly as he could. Okay to leave the details to his guys How long did he stay? I mean like headlines Trump's out early? Yeah, you know he's letting people know that he's extremely worried about implementation and he got away from the table as quickly as he could So that he couldn't get backed into the in the corner at the time