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[Music] welcome to the climate and coordination arcast where every week we'll be discussing topics related to all things climate change and our chain's role in the solution we will be discussing technologies that can adapt and coordinate massive amounts of data like never before forming social architectures that grow collective intelligence sharing and evaluating data planetarily all while maintaining personal privacy and personal data ownership a new decentralized economy is forming as we move from the third industrial revolution digitization to the fourth decarbonization by building a co-op built on a correct by construction concurrent scalable solution our chain is structured to build out the new technology that will be required for a flourishing regenerative planet please join us on this journey [Music] okay welcome to the next iteration of the climate and coordination arc cast we are very happy to have a guest with us this week um and we have lots of different topics to get through so first we wanted to say hello to our guest today which is john grant john hello hello nora thanks for inviting young of course yeah before we get started would you like to just give our audience a little summary of perhaps what you're working on and and how you came to um came to our chain sure um i founded a business in 2004 which essentially is a data business that tracks the uk job market so we look at how skills change over time the demand for skill sets and salary benchmarking now what that's given me is an insight in how rapid the change has been in digital and the challenges people that work in that industry need to reskill and keep up with the latest uh developments so i can see that lifelong learning needs to become the norm not the exception not just in i.t or in tech but across all industries ai automation is coming down the line much faster than people realize my interest in decentralized is because i am i'm ambivalent about the current generation of social media which i'll possibly come on to later on and i think decentralized platforms is where people will collaborate um where lifelong learning to some extent will happen um um it's kind of think about open source development and think about hacker culture but then applying that to all levels of research or collaboration or what i've labeled it is topic hacking and the current generation of social platforms don't have the bandwidth to be able to offer that day they're based on unsustainable business models they are protected by section 230 they are essentially attention merchants they're not really the place for learning they are i think causing polarization not only in the united states but in other parts of the world um and i think it's come to a kind of point over the last few weeks that's got me really interested in why i think i've been invited here today so i hope that makes sense i'm rambling a bit but i'd like to get back to this i want to get a chance to talk later on absolutely yeah i think that's uh really relevant to a lot of the discussions that we often have on this call and also i'm i feel like your predictions are already coming true with the boom of tick tock which is largely um kind of a how-to let me show you how i did it let me show you how i made it kind of um platform so we can definitely talk more about that um but i definitely have two articles for today that we can start off with that i thought would be relevant and they definitely tie into your background so the first one um these are both from the environmental defense fund blog if anybody is not interested or sorry not familiar with the environmental defense fund blog they have a great um little publication that is on it's called blogs.edf.org and they have a lot of really great environmental stories there so i highly recommend anybody to check those out here's the first one of today this says the headline here is federal reserve warns of financial risks from climate change agricultural banks must act fast this is from january 12th of this year so i just wanted to highlight a little bit about what's going on um especially in the um agricultural uh industry of course we've talked about this several times before but banks um are starting to basically align their portfolios with much more ambitious climate goals which is a really good thing and of course the federal reserve is basically in other organizations are basically saying that in order for markets to continue we need to start basically disclosing climate risks within stocks and other entities and businesses so that people really know what is going on but i'll just read a little bit from this because this this piece was pretty shocking to me it says the major flooding that took place across the midwest in 2019 demonstrated the financial vulnerabilities of the farm financial system to acute climate impacts following the devastation to crop production brought on by floods the portion of the region's agricultural loans that are reporting quote major or severe repayment problems reached its highest level in 20 years um so basically that means that people are not able to um be financially solvent when they're experiencing these uh really severe climate disasters like we saw in the midwest of the united states with flooding um but it gets even a little crazier it says another financial climate risk assessment conducted by an anonymous bank in collaboration with the united nations environment program finance initiative found that by 2040 which is only in 19 years a business as usual emission scenario could cause revenues for the banks agricultural borrowers to drop by 12 to 22 and cause the banks agricultural loan defaults to increase by 10 to 15 percent um and it says just one final thing here this is especially worrisome is nearly half of all u.s agricultural loans come from lenders with at least one quarter of their portfolios made up of debt to farm operations presenting concentrated exposure to losses from severe weather events so basically what we're looking at here is another potential financial bubble which could burst but instead of the housing market you know we could say it's the agricultural market because of the um the risks of climate change but i would even say this is probably one very small portion of a much larger sort of climate bubble because we know that um the agricultural industry is only one sort of sector within probably hundreds of sectors that are um you know to be expected as being you know highly interrupted by you know the next decade two or three um certainly within our um century and i just want to remind everybody if this default rate this default risk of 10 to 15 percent in 19 years and this could be the low end we don't know if this is um accurate i remember that the housing crisis in 2008 in the united states i believe the defaults like everything really started to slide at like eight or nine percent i think if anybody knows about that they can correct me so this would be like a cataclysmic you know situation so i would love to know if anybody has any comments on this and i also have a second story which really ties into this but i would love to hear any comments on this first one if there are any oh steve ross talbot is here too hi steve i didn't say hi to you before hi nora hello so um okay so i guess i'll just move on to the second story because um uh there it really ties in um to the first one but it also i think this is a cool potential use case for a blockchain to potentially help solve some of these um impending climate bubbles um financial bubbles and hopefully of course it's not all about finances but to actually help save the planet so this is the second article that i found this is also from the environmental defense fund blog again i really um um recommend that people check out the blog on their website because it's very good this is actually back from october of 2020 but i still think it's um pretty relevant so it says here the headline is keeping food on the table when water is scarce is a balancing act this new app will help so basically there's a new app that is being developed called open et like as in e.t the alien um it says here that et stands for evapotranspiration okay i've been practicing that evapotranspiration which basically is the opposite of rainfall it's how much evaporation off a land surface goes back um into the atmosphere and there's an app that is being developed that basically can monitor this very closely and it says when incorporated into irrigation scheduling or other farm management tools this data will enable farmers to make more informed management decisions create more accurate water budgets and maximize their quote crop per drop so basically this is an app that gives extremely specific unprecedented level of data to farmers and other people involved in agribusiness and it allows them to basically save water and to help their crops survive different weather conditions because they have better data so obviously this is an app that's going to be really important in the future it says despite its clear value only about seven percent of u.s farmers have been able to use et data to manage irrigation that's from 2018 i think seven percent is actually pretty high um even though it's three years ago two three years ago um but it says open et will give all farmers across the western united states access t data that can benefit their bottom line so i mean this is just like a really interesting report i recommend anybody read it um and i wanted to bring it up because i thought this app called open ht is like a great use case for what we always talk about on this call which is blockchain combined with climate solutions combined with um really um important coordination efforts so anyway you guys can anybody listening on the call can um can look this up and check it out and see if there might be a way to plug um blockchain into this so any comments on that one interesting find i and just in because i never thought of googling for this until you raise this topic so i just googled for water and blockchain and quite high on top of the list is a thing called i think it's water chain io or something like that and it's a blockchain for helping people secure water supply yeah making sure that it's of high quality so i think it's um yeah it's called water chain to io um and it's very recent it's only you know last year late last year uh-huh so yeah so it's kind of interesting when you when you think about us without green climate agenda you know it does suggest that actually we should be we should perhaps be more actively looking um for things like water chain and the ones that you mentioned yeah well obviously we well we discussed this a few weeks ago but now the water futures are being traded on the stock market or they will be if they're not already they just got approved for that so um [Music] water is going to be a big deal and you know water is tied to so many jobs and obviously you need water to live but also a lot of economies depend on um well i would probably say every economy depends on water but especially certain ones um like farming and agriculture especially so um yeah i agree that there's a lot more research that we could do um about that because that's going to be an extremely um a little pun here it'll be a hot topic that's for sure okay well maybe we want to bring our guest john in at this point because john i know that you have um some experience with jobs programs okay if i share my screen absolutely yeah we would love to see what you have for us so i hope you can see that um what it is is a worldly map and i don't want to be distracted by what a worldly map and what it means but i hope by the time i finished it will help me explain some of the thoughts and ideas that i have so a worldly map is essentially a value chain which is represented on the y-axis and what's important are anchors on this one just to confuse you i've got two which are hackers and users what's different about a worldly map is the wire at the x-axis which represents evolution not time evolution um it is impossible normally to determine how long things take to evolve they have to go through multiple components need to go through multiple diffusion curves and the types of evolution of the stages of evolution can vary depending on the context of the map so they can be activities practices data knowledge so on this map i've got a concept emerging convergent accepted um this map really is to try and introduce why i'm interested in decentralized platforms and compare that to what we have today which is the first generation of the current generation of social media platforms as i've mentioned before they are attention merchants again my opinion they're protected by section 230 and they're using ad tech unsustainable built on centralized closed platforms and they encourage i think it's there is plenty of evidence to show this it's not universal but they encourage slacktivism which is polarization homophily dopamine addiction group think whatever now don't want to dwell too much on that side of things probably what i'm trying to do is run through the map so it hopefully makes more sense now if we look at the left hand side the hackers the decentralized platforms the open this is where i see where our chain and roland live and decentralized platforms are the enablers of lifelong learning now not lifelong learning because that we can get that from books so we can get from online courses or we can go and study in universities on the list will expand what i'm interested in is actually learning in the open so it's bringing in the notion of hacker culture where you are working on hackable systems systems that aren't inherently insecure but they lend themselves to technical tinkering modification creative problem solving adaptation and hackable also applies to algorithms machine learning and deep learning models as i mentioned in the introduction there is an urgency i believe that lifelong learning needs to become the norm rather than the exception now where is the the motivation for this to happen what will be the how how will the components on the left-hand side of the map evolve to become convergent or accepted and you can see i put a red line at the bottom of participant participatory inquiry and active learning and that will evolve as a consequence of the value chain that's for hackers so the advantage the hackers will have is firstly pervasive computing hyper connectivity and the integral income generating potential of decentralized systems will actually impact the flow of knowledge so the diffusion effect and the bandwidth effect will increase the marginal marginal utility of decentralized platforms per unit of time now that's a bit of a mouthful um i've memorized that but what i'm saying is that more energy needs to be applied by hackers to build the platforms that will sustain them rather than the lean back users of today of the current generation of social media platforms um so obviously they become stakeholders in the systems that they build um and i'm going to come i'll loop back on this in a minute to elaborate on what i mean by that because i know it's not clear what i would like to do is um move forward to where we are at the moment uh i believe and these maps i put together over the summer and this one is looking at um what i started to think about is what's different in the technological landscape of the protests of the nine of 1968 and today or the summer of 2020 now history doesn't repeat itself it often rhymes but what is different is hyper connectivity ai automation another key factor i think is the move from and this has been a gradual move over uh possibly centuries um it's governing in private to governing in public now that's key to this map and if you look down the value chain you can see that i get to accountability which then has the pipeline of policy but the other components which is in the accepted uh space of the map are time constraints and i think what the covid pandemic has shown is that governments not only in the u.s and obviously i'm not based in the usa but in the west in general um doesn't have the technological infrastructure to handle the characteristics of big data so by that i mean volume uh variety uh velocity and veracity so governments are struggling with um the complexity of dealing with messaging in the era of mobile social networks hyper partisanship of civil servants um and you know the just the general huge stream of low signal to noise chatter so the other aspect to this map which is also key is the inevitability of uh central bank digital currencies we know that the chinese are quite um advanced in testing and almost ready to launch their central bank's digital currency there are also uh news reports in the us i'll put the links in the chat of the fed uh researching central bank digital currency are not possibly signaling to the private sector that they need help to build this link to digital currencies also is identity now if you when you start to link all these together you can start to see what on the map is labeled a virtual technology stack so we've got support through artificial artificial intelligence automation hyper connectivity cbdc um again that value chain needs to be expanded to demonstrate what i actually mean but for the purpose of this conversation i hope it's sufficient but what that will support is the notion or what will be sold as governing in public and i've given it a subtitle there of technocracy now we also we're in the midst of a pandemic and it is serious and it's also shown the difference between the differences between the way the west has handled it and the way it's been handled in places like taiwan china singapore etc um there are there's going to be economic consequences you don't need me to test to say that um how deep the depression will be nobody knows if you look at the um appreciation in value of bitcoin over the last three months that may be an indicator of where the market believes fiat currencies like the dollar the pound euro are headed so given this infrastructure that and i'm gonna put i need to add something else here to make my point but i need to tread carefully with what i say but the the other premise that this map was built on is an electoral shock in the november 2020 us election now that we know who's won the election but as an observer on the other side of the pond it's it wasn't a decisive election win and i'll just compare it to brexit you know it was the the winners and the losers it kind of tended around 50 percent so well in america that's pretty typical you know and joe biden won the 2020 election by very similar margins that donald trump won the 2016 election which was also seen as pretty decisive in fact donald trump called it a landslide in 2016. sure i'm not disputing that uh i hope that's not the impression i'm giving the distribution that what the the actual result is what i did anticipate is that there would be uh it wouldn't be straightforward and as we've seen with the uh storming of cap the capital the second impeachment of donald trump um it it hasn't been straightforward similarly as it was with brexit in the uk the brexit boat in the uk well it is straightforward but they're wise being told by people to make it seem like it's confusing but it's not really confusing at all sure but i think the point i'd correct me if i'm wrong i think the point you're making here i mean i'm from the uk so well aware of how it works in the uk and and in the us when you look at the number of electoral college folks excuse me shouldn't have swallowed that water um when you look at the number of electoral college votes and look at that as percentages versus the percentages that voted for trump as distasteful as he is versus joe biden who i particularly like but i like several others as well um it isn't reflected in what we we call a landslide but actually wasn't in the same way that boris johnson ends up with an 80-seat majority but actually the percentage votes between him and the labour party at that point were not that they're not aligned to that level of power that's afforded them yeah and that's just to do with that's that's to do with that's to do with a representative democracy that doesn't have proportional representation yeah it completely it inflates one party and deflates another right regardless of your vote and those votes in this instance are equal if you're in alaska your vote counts more you're right well ensuring the fact that a state like california has two senators in a state like wyoming has two senators it's totally insane but anyway john go ahead continue it's yeah it's i just wondered john was that what you were pointing out effectively i'm mindful that i'm on it's this is risky ground especially for somebody who isn't an american to be commenting on this it's not risky i just wanted to make clear you know i'd rather be talking about something like that but what what i was trying to think about back in the summer is that where the election was uncertain it wasn't clear that there was going to be one winner or the other it was kind of we were heading into uncertainty and i hope that that makes sense but we now we're at a point where it's clear things are moving forward but with the well i'll leave it at that i hope that makes the point now if we go back to the map which shows there's an arrow that's showing governing in public evolving to convergent so whether it was democrat or whether it was republican it didn't matter for this map because the the map itself it doesn't matter which political persuasion is in government to make the concern i suppose that i'm raising here and it's linked it doesn't it will link back to decentralized uh systems or services later on but in order to deal with um governing in public there needs to be systems in place that can be like a message in real time so this is where the time constraints tie back into accountability and governing in public um i talking to other people that when the recession does kick in and the virtual technology stack is in place so they've started to roll out the cdbc there's nothing to stop governments then rolling out other and are using inverted commas free digital services to support the economy through this this period and climate change is another thing that will be part of this recovery so i i'm going to say this clearly now a technocratic government whether that's republic republican or dem democrat promising radical high-tech approaches to tackling climate change and handling the recovery of the the economy i believe will be difficult to remove from office once in power now if i move finally loop back to what i was talking earlier which is the thing that interests me and why i think the the ecosystem of decentralized technology and systems out there is topic hacking so this map the anchor is clearly labeled agent so that can be either a human or it can be some kind of smart contract are you um oh sorry i couldn't see your screen it just went black so now i can see it sorry keep going okay um the collaboration platform and the bridging is key here so this is where i see uh the r chain um rolling existing and what it will enable is many different platforms that focus on different issues contexts solving different problems and it's understanding network theory uh weak signal detection and looking for weak links so current generation of social media platforms kind of build hierarchies hierarchies do exist in complex adaptive systems they are inevitable but what i'm hoping is for topic hacking to evolve so for it to move right on the map what we will need are platforms enablers to do that are decentralized platforms offer bridging weak signal detection and being able to seek out uh weak links so working with groups from all over the world now i'll finish on uh one last point and i'm i'm not deliberately trying to be controversial here what i'm hoping to understand from this conversation is where you think our chain fits into this and how people will benefit from our chain for learning in the open but i i hope you're all familiar with hg wells um he wrote the time machine in i think it was 18 19 he also um uh drafted the the rights of man it was a kind of human rights manifesto and that was the basis of the un declaration of human rights so obviously interesting clever and influential going back to the time machine given the actions that aws um aws amazon took on the january the 10th which to me highlights the precautions now of relying on public cloud if you had a time machine and you traveled forward in time will aws have evolved to be the morlocks or the eloy i hope that makes sense i'll finish that well thank you if you wanted an answer to that thank you for that presentation okay i i i just wanted to you've said a lot of stuff that's very um uh that you know that that deserves uh you know many hours of discussion um but but i wanna i i wanna be just as controversial and and point out an analogy um uh that that uh that i think it illustrates the problem with putting too much faith in hacker culture i mean i love hacker culture and i love uh i i i love when people wake up to their present moment and realize that they can hack it but by the same token without additional support um for uh you know around psychopathy trauma and and and other kinds of things um i believe that there's a straightforward analogy between the way hitler and goebbels hacked the media of their time which was just emerging and the way trump hacked media in the governance context it's it's almost almost a straight straight uh you know transformation from from one era to another uh trump trump was able to get around the existing medium machines using uh using the the modern media machines uh for a very long time um and uh and his hacks were not very pleasant his hacks of those machines were uh were uh resulted in a lot of damage to to many sectors of society and governance itself and so just because we enable hacking and we wake up people to the possibility of hacking their present moment it doesn't necessarily mean that we have good outcomes i can appreciate that but i would i'll push back if it may is to say that governing in public or governing in real time is the equivalent of hacking it as well well i i but i i guess my argument is that trump i think many view trump as as as pushing towards governing in public right he fired people on twitter he launched he launched military programs on twitter even before generals knew about it uh so so it was it was happening it just uh it wasn't happening in a pleasant way but isn't there a difference between what he's talking about which is governing in public which is like sounds more transparent and governing with like no um counsel what do you call that like i guess autocracy but you know like isn't it possible to govern in public also using the people around you to make legitimate decisions well this is my point exactly my my point is that that we we have to add more to the mix than just hacking and governance right yeah because because you know there is a uh because autocracy is a form of governance it's just not one that we really want to head towards i hope um go ahead just to say i think from a human species perspective because i've been troubled about what's happened with trump and the fact that 74 million people even voted for him uh and troubled that people in the united states could actually think that storming the capital building somehow is legal um uh and and you guys know me and john you don't know me but um i'm a big supporter of of digital democracies that decentralize um governing ourselves uh in some way and i'm a big supporter of technology that can enable that and and i've been i worked with the labour party on the digital manifesto when when corbyn and macdonald were um were in power well in power were running the labour party um and for for all of the the bad things about them the good things i'll say about them is that they truly believed in this notion of um the importance of the individual um uh but also believed in in or hoped believed actually is a good word had faith in um basic humanity's ability somehow to collaborate um and what i've found yeah so on the one hand you know being a subscriber to that sort of leads me to believe that the future is is not just governing in public and it's probably where you're heading it's the decentralization of that so that there's participatory involvement and that you can make statements on some platform that contributes to the making of a policy and you can ask that policy how did you incorporate my sentiment and it should be able to tell you both that whether it did or it didn't and how or why it did or it didn't um you know that that's the sort of utopian future um but such systems do exist policies was was one that tried to do it but it was centralized if that same police machine existed wholly unchained and and with the ability to have uh provenance with um deliberation which we already have with our chat and the ability to vote with our vote uh comes about the the challenge is not so much can we do it technically we know we can we're more almost there on our chain already um and with a chain that scales you know it potentially could take a whole country and and wider and so we can anticipate the ability to do that the real challenge i think is how the hell do you launch it you know and i've been playing with that for months and months and seeing what's going on in the states and feeling sort of profoundly depressed into my fellow man's ability to trip themselves up or shoot themselves in the foot but still i still unwavering in my belief in some notion of common humanity that will enable us to collaborate in the right way across the planet not just in our nation's states and and i think the whole notion of digital democracy as it goes into a wider participation then calls into question the role of the representative who we elect what is their role because their role will shrink or at least if we don't think of it shrinking it becomes very accountable every minute of the day um so you know i just wanted to put that out there that i think it's the decentralization of that government government and governance in public that's required and then we move into a new era in which both collaboration locally and collaboration across disparate distances um becomes something that we learn to do over these platforms because we don't know how to do it yet as people as humans full stop well i want to bring in one more angle here and then give john a chance to respond um many many people have heard me say this and i think you know i'm i'm sort of responded to with a deafening silence when i when i talk about these things um but but i i think that there are there's there's a a growing um there's a clear growing um uh record that that something like this is already happening sort of in its shadow form uh so i think many people have have have heard the term now con con spirituality um where you know a lot of the q anon and other kinds of um uh uh conspiracy theories that they merge with uh with uh sort of very lazy uh uh uh spiritual narratives uh you know in in the sense that the the the narratives about spirituality are are not subjected to the kind of rigor that we we would expect of of scientific or mathematical disciplines um and so a lot of people get sucked in um and and and that's very problematic but by the same token i have been urging and arguing that um we do need the development of a layer of technologies which i call the spiritual technologies over and above the bytes and bits that that what ultimately what you want for your representative is conscience you want the representative to not not necessarily go out but to go inward can you consult your own conscience and is there a real relationship a viable relationship between your experience of conscience and everyone else's experience of conscience and and most importantly to the experience of the of the collective the wisdom of the collective which is again a real thing is there a relationship between your own inner experience of consciousness and the collective wisdom and the development of that there there there there's you know millennia of technologies that have that have real objective uh uh um uh approaches to to uh the development of that experience so that it can be relied upon but until un until that uh that is developed i think every time we build bits and bytes towards unity it will it will always fall prey to the tower of babel narrative already the internet is is a modern day uh metaphor for the uh recapitulation of the tower of abel the intent of the internet the intent of the world wide web was to bring us together to make it possible for us to have access at our fingertips to a wide range of knowledge and wisdom but what has happened without the these technologies these are these other kinds of technologies of of conscience is that has become a web of lies it is as divisive and corrosive to society as anything we have built and and so so so my my argument is that we're going to have to bring in these other technologies and do so in in a different way um it can no longer be lacks it can no longer be without an experiential basis it can no longer be without rigorous testing confirmation and and uh um uh uh aggregation or accumulation of collective wisdom anyway that's my soapbox and then i'll turn it over to uh to others um yeah i would say you know if i could um if i if i can kind of grasp what what john is getting at um uh which like you say is uh so much um to to parse out but um uh when you talk about lifelong learning i think you know it's i don't think that that john you're talking if i can put words in your mouth you're not talking about hacking as a concept you're talking about a particular kind of hacking a hacking that that focuses on the concepts of lifelong learning um and it i always go back to the lawrence lessig guide of how society is uh controlled so you know there's there's four ways to control behavior in a society law market architecture and norms and so if i'm understanding your approach john it's not hacking per se it's it's how we hack and why we hack and and that and that that lies largely in the norms in the architecture yeah there's um i was thinking about what to how to respond because there was so much uh to say but i want i want to focus on lifelong learning because that's that's what's that's what motivates me to research this and when i do discuss this with people i'm not familiar with that the term hacking does have connotations and maybe i should try and look for a different term um but but i do appreciate all the input now on a final note then to listen to what the the comments that have been made um and to weave in the importance of lifelong learning and the the bit that interests me or the what i hope we'll see is learning in the open learning from each other learning through by making mistakes and not being ridiculed for that but the radicalization that was talked about is interesting because you can see that what amazon did is possibly what governments are not able to do at the moment which is de-radicalization so credit card companies can withdraw their services and nefarious out service can be kind of taken off the internet so it's government governing in the open by mega tech or mega corporations the other thing that was touched on i believe was culture and that's the area i'm looking at at the moment i'm reading a book by joseph hendrick i believe it's called the weirdest people in the world and weird is an acronym which stands for western educated industrialized rich and democratic what he talks about there is that westerners our the the makeup of our brain is such that the alphabet that we use kind of um i wouldn't say causes but it makes us think linearly which is no good in complexity cause and effect we tend to be weird people tend to be individual individual sorry mom that's not working non-conformist analytic and control oriented we tend to see ourselves about how we fit into the world our achievements rather than our network our family now if you look at china the language that they use the alphabet they actually think differently so if we need to collaborate with people from different cultures how are we going to be able to do that and on the first slide which was topic hacking in the knowledge economy i included a few components which were trustless economies which is you know blockchain maybe may fit in the dynamic governance whatever that means so it's it's still a concept at the moment we don't really know how we're going to govern in a either a hacker culture or whatever culture we mean when we're talking about how do we learn in a rapid technologically evolving world full stop absolutely yeah i mean i i think that this is a discussion that we could definitely have again or many times um but unfortunately we do have another call in two minutes so i'm not sure if anybody has any final burning comments that they want to add um i just thank you very much john for coming um it's been a delight very educational yes thank you john we have we really appreciate it and um and uh yeah so we will be back next week of course um if anybody's interested in becoming a member of our chain they can do that at our chain co-op please subscribe to our chain on youtube and follow the co-op on social media and if you're interested in becoming a guest or know someone who might like to be a guest um on the our cast just email climate at our chain dot co-op and thank you all so much thanks everybody thanks john thanks everyone ciao you