Redline Energy Audit Report with airSlate SignNow

E signature energy audit report

alright guys well thanks for joining us today people online that I can't see we're here to talk about energy audits and explain how they help building owners and managers both compile up-to-date building systems information and operations information report energy breakdown information determine how much energy what portions of their energy are being spent on different areas whether it's heating or lighting or ventilation and to identify opportunities for facilities to reduce their energy and help to identify cost savings cost-saving measures that are actually feasible for that particular building years now this isn't cooking forward to going to work I'll just use this keyboard so why look at building performance well first of all in the United States buildings account for approximately 39 percent of overall interviews and 72 percent of electricity consumption and commercial buildings use about 20 percent of all of the energy used in the United States a pretty big number of that 20 percent of that energy for office buildings is estimated that up to 30 percent is wasted on an average per building so it's definitely an opportunity for savings so why focus on existing buildings well there well there's undoubtedly a lot of potential for new construction 80% of the buildings that will be here in 2050 are here today so it's also more sustainable to retrofit and restore existing buildings than it is to build new construction so we spend 90% of our time inside of buildings which is a huge part of our lives so it should be something that we're concerned about not only from the energy side but also from our health and wellness and Energy Star calculates that a 10% reduction in energy can equate to about a 1.5 increase in net operating income for commercial office building that's a pretty big significance so a 2011 study called the economics of green building found that on average every dollar of energy savings yields about a three and a half percent rent premium and a four point nine percent boost in market value for that particular building recent data also demonstrates that LEED certified or Energy Star labeled buildings charge about three percent higher run and benefit from higher occupancy rates and they sell typically for thirteen percent higher than conventional buildings overall buildings that have implemented green or sustainable measures typically achieve about a six point six percent overall return on their investment so we'll get to the portion of the presentation where we talk about how to better go about managing your energy and what types of tools you can use in order for commercial buildings to move towards energy efficiency and overall sustainability there needs to be a solid commitment made in Pittsburgh you may have heard of the 2030 district or the 2030 challenge which is a very clear and determined voluntary way of committing to reduction in energy and those buildings that have signed up for those challenge they're definitely on the forefront of demonstrating that they're making that commitment next you need to find out where you stand this is where you create benchmarks of your energy water waste usage or you can have an energy audit or retro-commissioning study done I know where you stand now and lastly you want to identify and evaluate improvements that might be feasible for your building and your building's occupants and they should be evaluated both from the hard cost and hard benefits or hard impact and the soft side of things the reflections on occupancy comfort the reflections that are harder to necessarily put dollars and cents to with improved product or improved employee productivity and environmental health concerns in order to control energy efficiency and reach toward energy and sustainable goals there are three major areas of focus that have to be considered and those are energy efficient purchasing which of course we want to make sure that we're purchasing energy at the lowest cost possible in Pennsylvania we can take advantage of deregulated utility program so we have the ability to negotiate and bid out or energy costs we also want to consider efficient equipment so it makes sense to upgrade or replace any of the sting equipment in place we want to make sure that the most energy efficient versions that still satisfy the needs of the occupant are considered and that their initial costs operating cost and maintenance costs are all considered in that value proposition rather than just a first cost scenario and lastly you will always want to consider efficient operations and maintenance we need to ensure that the equipment in place and the building's usage overall is being used in the most energy conscious and sustainable way possible so a great tool to work on all three of these areas is energy audit which we're here to talk about today so an energy audit analyzes the current energy performance of a building and it identifies cost-saving cost effective savings measures energy saving measures sorry that can be implemented the final product of an energy audit is going to be a report that summarizes that information so what's the purpose the purpose of an energy audit is to map out like we mentioned before where you stand now and where there are opportunities of improvement and what you can expect in terms of costs and savings for those different opportunities there are really two clear purposes like I mentioned the first is to understand how your building is currently consuming and secondly identify how that consumption can be reduced in an economical manner well some energy efficiency upgrades can be considered pretty well no-brainers how you structure those investments can be critical to how you how well you spend your upgrades budgets for example sometimes these sequence of implementing different measures can affect the successfulness of the implementation and the RO is that you're going to see from those planning smart investments can also help to take advantage of the savings from one to help fund another so now I'd like to take a few minutes to walk you through what the energy process energy audit process is like first we start with a pre site visit so before actually coming out onto the site it's useful and the best use of everyone's time to get a lot of information to your energy auditor we recommend using a minimum of two years of energy bill data so energy consumption data if you haven't been in the building for that amount of time then there are ways of extracting some data or possibly looking to past tenants to see if they could used if you can use some of their data however that two years of data really gives you a good picture of where you stand and you're able to normalize it over time and identify anomalies in the data prior to getting on-site that you could be watching for this is a pretty important part of an audit because for example in one building that I went to I hadn't seen the data ahead of time and once I looked at the data afterwards I found out that the top floor of a building was using three times the amount of natural gas as the lower floors so that doesn't make sense in an office building in a typical six story office building so if I would have known that about the data ahead of time I would have had more of an idea what to look for and spend my time on-site doing with it that bill data you want to also benchmark the building and that is where you gather sense of how well your building is performing relative to other buildings and if we normalize that energy consumption with weather data because we don't always have winters like this past winter and we don't always have winters like the winter before this winter how mild that winter was so we need to consider how the weather impacts our our usage as well and gathering information on the building prior to going out on say cos the auditor a better picture of how much time to spend in different areas what types of usage building usage to expect what areas are occupied and occupied and at different times of the day what types of systems are in place you may want to find out how those systems have changed over time they've had any major retrofits or if they've had any major issues come up down the line or if any of the systems are currently non-functional that's good to know before coming on site so that you can expect to troubleshoot those areas or skip those areas if they're not an issue or a brand new system that really isn't being looked at as a replacement the more familiar an auditors with the building the better their time is spent on site next we typically recommend using Energy Star portfolio manager to help establish your benchmark for energy and water the reason that we do this is it's a free online program for everyone to use and they also compare your data with the Steve X database portfolio manager also makes it easy to normalize for weather and to compare to other similar buildings by creating helping you to develop both an e UI which is an energy used intensity which means the energy used per square foot of your building so it transfers the units that are used for electricity and the units that are used for gas into a general unit and then it makes that an easy to compare number from building to building then energy store actually gives you a score of 0 to 100 with 100 being the absolute best and one being well having a lot of opportunities for improvement so performing your energy audit the next step is doing your walkthrough doing your building walk through this is going to the the depth of this part of the study is variable depending on the level of your analysis and how many building systems you're looking at so if the building if you're looking at all of the building systems they can include the envelope the lighting HVAC domestic hot water and any other major systems of the building during that walk sir it's critical to have time to sit down and talk with the facility manager or whomever is constantly running the building whether it's even if it's an outside vendor that takes care of any issues that happen in the building it's good to schedule some time to sit down and talk to them about recurrent problems that are happening as a system complaints there what equipment runtimes are whether there's setbacks what the set points are for different points of equipment and what your schedules look like and it's also important to talk with the occupants sometimes this could be limited in a commercial office building sometimes the owners don't want you to be walking around all the desks and asking people how they feel in their space because I know if you did that at our headquarters you get a lot of complaints but in general if the more that you're able to get some feedback from occupants the better improving the occupancy comfort is a key thing to keep in mind while you're trying to improve the efficiency of your building so the next step is taking all the data that you gather during the building walk through space and that could be testing equipment it could see those surveys interviews and analyzing it this is where you're you start to look through the energy both for consumption trends where you calculate the energy consumption and break down what portions of the overall energy are being spent on different areas of the building whether it's lighting or cooling or ventilation or plug loads different uses of the building and every building is going to be different if your energy includes energy audit includes model building whether it's a spreadsheet model or it's a more in-depth Department of Engineering Department of Energy endorsed modeling software like eQuest this is where you would input all of your data into that modeling program and run it with any possible upgrades that you're looking at and this is where you identify and evaluate any energy conservation or energy saving measures and for each of those measures you want to consider all of those categories the feasibility of the measure how feasible is it really to install that particular measure whether it's occupancy sensors or a new boiler or what-have-you it has to be able to fit in the space has to be operable has to be able to be managed by the people in the space you need to consider the annual energy savings from that energy conservation measure first cost as well as operational costs so are the operational costs going to increase or decrease over time and operations and maintenance cost how expensive is it going to be to maintain it are you going to be changing the filters ten times more often than you did before or does the unit have reusable filters that you can clean and reuse and what are the occupancy comfort and health results from those energy conservation measures this is a an example of break down that estimated energy use and use break down for a commercial office building as you can see a big chunk of it is used for space heating and cooling and ventilation and then another big one there is lighting on this particular one it's 25% for lighting 10% for other so other can include some of your plug loads and security systems a lot of times we don't get the energy data from security systems usually off-limits so that usually ends up in the other category then the last step of your energy audit process is to build your report and then to present that report and report should include at minimum and a very accurate and up-to-date building description how the building's used what's in the building what what systems it has and what models what units with serial numbers all of the information that you gathered during your walk through the energy end-use breakdown that you calculated as well as discussion of the past consumption bills and any trends in the data or any anomalies in the data that you've seen a prioritized list of recommended energy conservation measures and I say prioritize because that takes into account when I talked before about making those smart investments and being able to capitalize on the savings from one investment to use for another as well as the implications of putting into place one energy conservation measure with or without another for example if you're doing a lot of envelope improvements on your building envelope it could make an opportunity for you to downsize your boiler or downsize your air handling unit it could also cause you to need to bring in more outside air more ventilation so you might have to run outside air fans a little bit more often you need to consider those implications with your report and energy audit the prioritized list should clearly communicate your ROI analysis how you came up with the return on investments it should have your initial cost your operational costs what kinds of savings are associated with each measure the impact of those measures on operations and maintenance procedures and the impact on the building occupants whether it's going to make them more comfortable give them more control over their system sometimes give them less control over their systems in the case of occupancy sensors or daylight sensors and you're also in every energy audit report you also want to list the energy conservation measures that you considered but that are not recommended and why because and this is important because in future things change whether it's the building usage the building itself or the people in the building technology costs may come down and this report should be something that the building owner our facility manager can or can refer back to and see so we considered geothermal heat pump systems but at the time this is their cost this is how much it's going to cost to implement them now we have these rebates and incentives available and it brings down that initial first cost so the ROI ROI makes sense so making sure that you include those whether they're recommended or not and why is important so there are several energy audit guidelines in existence the most commonly used is called the American Society of heating refrigerating and air conditioning engineers I never remember that whole acronym but everyone refers to it as ASHRAE so ASHRAE has a guideline procedure for commercial building or commercial energy audits it is a guideline it is not a standard it's not written as a standard so it's not extremely particular as to what's included in the different levels it has three levels and it increases in depth which so sea level so level one is the most simple and that's a walk through analysis which should typically take like a one-day visit on-site level two is an energy survey and analysis and this is a much more in-depth audit typically involves a lot more testing of equipment and and a little bit more in-depth study of your energy conservation measures it can include energy modeling but again the ASHRAE guidelines jump specify it says optional and a level three is really when you want to look into doing a massive retrofit option whether it's bringing green energy or sustainable energy options like when turbines and solar geothermal whether it's a full lighting retrofit that could be a level three project of building reek lighting projects that could be part of a level three project a level three almost always includes an energy bottle some other common guidelines are the BPI technical standards for multifamily building analysts professional and like that title is kind of self-explanatory mostly for multifamily buildings but it's another good reference for if you're building a spec for an energy on it or you want to see what's included in multifamily versus office spaces and a lot of people go for customized scopes with their audit if every building is different obviously every person is different companies different and the age of different systems are different so if it makes sense to to jump right into a level 3 project but really only analyze lighting for your building with a very basic energy n use breakdown then that's more of a customized scope project so it can be customized there like I said there guidelines there are standards they're up for interpretation and I will step through a little bit more of the level one or of each level so the first level is a walkthrough it's a basic energy audit can be a good starting point if you haven't addressed your energy consumption in the past and you don't really don't know where your building stands and you don't you're not looking at making a larger investment into analyzing where your building stands it includes identifying low and no-cost energy saving measures and identifies some more capital improvement projects that should be studied in more depth before implementing it definitely goes over your utilities it has a full bill audit section and you want to make sure that you use a benchmarking kind of program to determine what your energy conservation energy consumption is now and what your target consumption can be so level 2 is called an energy survey and analysis it's a little bit more detailed than a level one and it's usually the most appropriate level for building for most buildings especially commercial buildings the breakdown of energy use is included in this as well but it's much more precise than that in a level one the level one is much more estimated whereas in a level two it's much more measured and you spend a lot more time on-site in a level two than you do in a level one it could also include your breakdown fail to include more end categories so it would include things like computers servers whereas the level one would just include your broad categories like lighting heating cooling ventilation etc a more thorough analysis of your energy consumption is performed and unlike a level one the operation and maintenance procedures are also reviewed and if there's any suggestions they would be made in that case after the initial analysis is completed with the auditor the building owner facility managers - is typically brought together for a closeout meeting where you can go through the findings so far what you want to look into a little bit further as those Capital Improvement kinds of projects and then it not only identifies your low and no-cost measures but it goes more in-depth into identifying and prioritizing those potential capital improvement projects and the savings and costs that are associated with those so then there's the level three energy audit and this is also known as the investment grade audit and this is the level that I mentioned before for more major renovation projects where you're changing out an entire system or majorly renovating the building and you want to make sure that all the systems are going to work with your new layout if it's the changing the state it has very detailed filled out data gathering a lot more measuring and monitoring of the system a lot more just data gathering time spent on site and focuses on those capital intensive projects so now that you know what an energy audit is how do you go about finding an energy auditor there are a few engineering organizations out there that have begun to offer energy audit certification the most commonly recognized and the older certifications out there are from the association of energy engineers and the two associated with energy auditing in particular are the CEM the certified energy manager and CEA the certified energy auditor these both of these certifications have prerequisites for sitting for the exam they have to be experienced in their field they have to have a certain amount of years in the field they have to have relevant degrees and they sit for pretty involved tests to ensure that there's people with those designations have qualification to be working a field and ASHRAE has also recently released a building energy assessment professional which is directly related - energy audits especially with commercial building energy audits there's also for multifamily buildings as I mentioned BPI before BPI also has a multi-family building analyst professional again focused on multifamily buildings because they can be very different than commercial office buildings the systems are more similar to residential systems generally than in a commercial office space he want to be cautious of free energy audits because like you know mom and dad always said nothing is ever really free there's no such thing as a free lunch however if it is free there's nothing really that you can hurt by getting a free audit you just have to make sure that you look over it with a grain of salt most of the time a free energy audit is being given by a vendor that's trying to sell you something after the fact or remodel whenever it is that their expertise is in so you just want to make sure that you thoroughly evaluate those reports they can oftentimes be a great stepping stone now if you're looking into a particular area it's also important whenever you're looking at energy auditors to ask for a sample report for a building that's similar to yours so if you are a library ask for other buildings other auditors that have done buildings like libraries or libraries in the past and see if you can see their report and as always just as if you are interviewing someone for a job you want to ask for references everyone should be able to provide references on past projects and who is a good energy audit candidate so what makes your building a good candidate for an energy audit so an existing building definitely a building that's less than a year old has it doesn't really have enough energy data energy consumption data to really evaluate for energy audit it's best to have a minimum of two years of energy data like I mentioned before and the recommended is to have it's best to have at least 12 months you have to have at least 12 months of continuous data but two years is usually the best minimum range so a lot of what you're analyzing and energy add Energy Audit relies on your history of consumption in order to find out how efficient your equipment is in place if your building has had a lot of changes in building use whether it's whether the systems in place have been there for 50 years and the tenants have changed out 10 times it's usually a good signal that the building systems that have been there aren't really designed to provide for the occupants as they're using the space so that's usually a good indication for an energy audit and if you've done that benchmark and you recognize that your buildings in that lower range on the Energy Star portfolio manager score or if you're GU I is a high EUI then compared to similar building then it might be a good opportunity to look into an energy audit and those who have never had an energy audit done before typically there's savings that you can get whether it's from a low level energy audit and they're low and no-cost things or if you want to look into more capital cost improvements so my final thought is that an energy audit is not going to save you money on its own it's the actions that come out of an energy audit and out of that information that's provided by an energy audit that give you the full benefit it provides you with the knowledge of how you're building operating currently and what kind of potential there is for improvement so if anybody has any question you can talk about the process procedures I have some / - for real reservation check but I was through a bill is important for the rule huh or a good range for what an audit cost Louisville one two and three others were check that is a very common question Jeff how much does it cost for level one level two level three on a per square foot basis and so I have a lot of involvement with ASHRAE and I actually sit on a technical committee with a charade that designs the guidelines for energy audits and is creating a standard and that's a topic of discussion that always comes up in our technical group with a lot of auditors well what do people charge for a level one level two level three and it is extremely wide the same people that charge for a level two sometimes Church for a level one and it's all because of those guidelines being so optional it's really dependent on who's providing the service but I would say just just in flat numbers not really on that square foot basis a level one energy audit should be for a let's say fifty thousand square foot office building I would say a level one audit it's going to be around two thousand at the minimum - could be eight to ten depending on how complicated it is if it's stork landmark building it could be very complicated a level 2 there as I said there's going to be a lot of overlaps level 2 could be anywhere from 4,500 to $15,000 and then a level 3 which again the level 2 can includes building energy modeling modeling is included and your price is going to go up a lot more a level 3 typically always includes energy modeling and those are like I said investment grade audits so there when you're already looking at making major renovation and those to you across the board depending on what you're looking at if you're looking at a building envelope renovation it's more based on the time spent on the audit than the square footage and that what building systems are in place so it's hard to give you a number for that one anyway oh yes place the hands on up ready see that all seven retro-commissioning is oftentimes a recommendation it comes out of an energy audit because they are separate things retro-commissioning includes testing and balancing of the systems and really fine-tuning them so they're working as for the building occupants needs and most level two to level three energy audits consider retro-commissioning as one of the implemented measures there is a little bit of overlap between the two in that in both you want to consider your operations and maintenance procedures you want to consider or you want to take down the information on your building system in place but with retro-commissioning you're not looking at making major retrofits of the building you're not looking at making changes whether it's a boiler change or changing out your air handler changing the size of your air handler none of that's included in a retro questioning project as your commissioning is really just making what you have in place work the most efficiently as it can while doing small changes whether it's valve changes filter changes testing and balancing like I said resetting your set point a lot of times the controls just doing the retro-commissioning on your building systems controls especially a proven energy management system in place that can be a major source of savings with a retro christening project so it's usually in the category of the capital investments and energy audit guidelines regarding how long different eventually last year's left bring an innovation and also what recreation after you've had about a thousand people sure a lot of it is based on industry knowledge a lot of it is based on our seeing the building system in place and understanding how fans and motors degrade over time and that a refrigerator only lasts for so many years a hot water tank typically only lasts for so many years a lot of that is like common industry knowledge but there are no it's a lot from your experience it's from having that experience auditors that have done 50 100 150 audits seen the equipment in place tested it several times especially like anybody that's done retro-commissioning in the past they've had a lot of experiences different ages of equipment and how well they're performing at different ages of their cycle it's also important to find an energy on it that has good relationships with vendors in different areas so that they could talk to them about degradation factors of equipment so that if you have a trained unit your energy auditor can reach out to that particular person and say okay I have a unit it's 35 years old but it looks like it's performing pretty efficiently how long should this last or I'm looking at recommending this size of a unit what is the typical life expectancy of your particular unit it's a lot of researching in the field a lot of the background work of an energy audit whether it's their own knowledge being out in the field or whether it's reaching out to their network where everybody can't be an expert at everything so an energy audit isn't manufacturing all of that equipment they're not maintaining all of those equipment pieces on a regular basis so having that network for your energy auditors auditor is critical so the term all systems that is talk a little bit about technology I think no time we did a trade for our carrot walk sentence is how well the octopus prepare the keratin someone said nothing I didn't have a bigger effect and you put in some orbited motor motor Otto our greatest check when we change the person move the air around the room 20 people to people the room motor grinding so havior tennis BR RF pulses how well it's really flat absolutely and that's a lot of where in energy artists and in retro-commissioning as well looking into how the building is operated and maintained and how and doing taking the time to do those interviews of facility managers as to how much are they adapting what they have in place in order to satisfy the occupants how often is you know this lady in the corner office complaining about not having a peach so you've rerouted some heat to our space or closed up a bunch of vents in other areas where now they're all falling asleep because they're not getting up outside air so there's a lot of things that come up over the lifetime of the project like you mentioned that affect your energy efficiency a lot more than degradation of equipment but going back to the gradation of equipment that part of your your ROI analysis is going to vary with different energy auditors that you speak to as well and that really is going to depend on industry knowledge experiences equipment etc rules on top of the energy opera membership that is very different Emily to be money very macro stuff included books extras oh gee well it really is part of making sure that you do your homework on that particular energy auditor it is it's not what there's not really going to be a standard like Ashley is not going to publish standards saying that all hot water heaters seem to start to decline at age this and this is their lifetime yeah yeah lighting lighting a lot of video well I suppose as well as how often is it turned on and off and is the room test at what temperature because if you're if you have an LED light and it doesn't have a great heat sink but your room is always cooler than usual that LEDs going a lot longer than the LED in the hallway we're getting a lot more outside temperature influence so situational and again it comes down to experience and absolutely manufactures make a difference if you go with one manufacturer for one fan unit and another manufacturer for another they're going to have different life expectancies so being out in the field and knowing what you've seen in place then you see an average and you're better able to recommend what's really expected as life expectancy we saw a PSD program or plan that there's some white papers or there are some white papers out for different equipment offers had a major 88 slant on this episode last big dick at the beginning of that energy savings it's one we come to realize that they have copying Harpo Productions higher environment absolutely from there people coming to our here last few years who's come to you that you're looking dollars they're required by together well so far it's been a combination I would say the majority are looking to save money they're looking at their energy costs going up and you can ually that their bills are getting higher every year whether it's because their buildings getting older and their systems are getting older or whether it's a combination of that and utility prices going up people see that they continue to go up in the future that is expected so it's mitigating that risk and that's one of the main driving factors the other I would say the other major one still put competition competitive factor making sure that you're the best one on the block or if this person's being sustainable and issuing a corporate sustainability report then your competitor needs to do it as well so it seems for us it seems to come from those two particular angles we have had a few that have come to us and said I know that there are three based out there for CFDs and I want to find out if these are an option for me and in those particular cases we usually do like a smaller scale analysis it's not a full-blown energy audit it might be like a level one energy audit with like going into more role level specifically their motors and drive fan unit things like that so I don't know what you've seen in the field but it seems to be that energy savings is still that number one yes absolutely it does absolutely ten years ago most people didn't know what an energy on it was it was educating them as to what to expect out of an energy audit whereas today a lot of facility managers that you speak to a lot of building owners when you speak about building energy audits they at least have some idea that you're coming into their building analyzed for energy efficiency where's 10 20 years ago they had no idea like don't touch my bills so times changed definitely Wow floor so there's so being an energy auditor and especially doing doing retro-commissioning you're basically like a detective for the building you're trying to find out why something is happening or why somebody's always not comfortable and we had one project where this poor lady was always freezing cold in the winter and she was never cold enough and in the summertime and everybody complained about her she was like I said in a corner office and the rest of the the people around her in her offices we're all complaining that they were always having to put their heaters on too much or or they're auditioning too much well we found out during retro-commissioning and out-building we tested and balance the HVAC system there and we found out that no one had ever taken the wrap off of the duct that came into her office so she was never getting the air the only air shoes getting was like through infiltration so like what was coming in from outside and what was coming in from like common spaces so this like just one silly stupid thing that happens during the construction process when they're pushed to get done as quickly as possible and their bonuses are based on how fast they can put that building up then you're going to come up with issues like that I've also run into there's an exhaust fan in a parking garage that kept turning on and the facility manager just could not figure out what was going on with this exhaust fan well the sensor was on the entire inside of the fan which flipped around the other direction so it was whenever it was like hot outside it was starting to pull hot air into the garage space and instead of like pulling exhaust air out of the space it was really a major mess that he had no idea like it just didn't occur to him that the fan was pulling the air into the space instead of exhausting it so it's things like that that sometimes to take an outside pair of eyes to look at and dig into a little bit more somebody that has some time to do that detective work to find the cause of some of those issues like I said there's that one tenant three times the amount of natural gas on the top floor than the rest and the top floor of an office building they should be using three times the air conditioning of anything but no it was that they were never setting back there their heat in the evening that was one of the factors another was that most of the exterior offices had operable windows and they were all opening their windows because it was too hot outside they just didn't operate a lot of it came down to how they were like he said operating the space they didn't understand how the building system was designed very well and they were trying to put out fires in their area and you know deal with what they had as best as they could so you end up seeing some really unusual things in it like we keep emphasizing every building is different every facility managers different their experience levels vary and especially with the last five to ten years of advancements in technology advanced control systems a lot of automation people don't think to go back and recalibrate co2 sensors to make sure that they are actually reading and that they're actually feeding back information to the building control unit we had a gymnasium that had these great occupancy sensors all over the buildings to regulate their outside air and they had never been programmed into the control unit never since the beginning of the building so it was an eight year old building gymnasium bringing in 100% outside air during all seasons so you end up finding a lot of things like that where savings from something like that is enormous and they already have the sensors in place it was just a matter of programming um so you can find a lot when you're doing these studies