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like it's fun to be a fan of a celebrity being a stan of a celebrity might be a little bit toxic and consuming but like politicians are not celebrities even though we know who they are and a lot of there are you know our last president was a celebrity who became a politician i really hope that we can build the wall between the person there was an eo saying there'd be no wall let's get into the topic for today and uh first i'm going to explain the reason you know why we're talking about this and that is stan culture and in case you're not familiar with what stan culture is so we're all operating from the same definition stan culture is basically being such a huge fan of someone or something that you do not accept any criticism of that thing whatsoever it makes you mad when anybody says anything bad about that thing so mad that you might go online and tweet something mean at the person who said the mild criticism or you might unfriend the person who said the mild criticism it is all encompassing fandom and honestly uh for quite some time i thought it was just sarcastic i did not think that people were honestly like stan fans of things the reason i wanted to talk about it today is because we are a week into the biden harris administration um all four of us uh have an affinity for joe biden and kamala harris but we also anticipate that we'll probably have some policy disagreements with joe biden and kamala harris and i feel like we're kind of in a moment right now where um political support and fandom have bled into each other so much that it's difficult to um to engage in thoughtful criticism of a politician without being accused of hating them or you know being anti-them or whatever so um i feel like alyssa since you are the person who has the most experience working in politics i would love to hear your perspective on the evolution of the way that people engage with politics and how you witnessed standing evolve especially under barack obama standing is very dangerous standing is very dangerous because if we don't think everyone is capable of like having a bad like i don't if you if you say you have to like something about everyone it's going to be very hard to ever find like middle ground or compromise or anything like that and so for us i'm gonna tell you there were a lot of obama stands in 2007 and 2008 a lot of hillary stands right and so one once obama became the nominee it was hard to get the people who thought that hillary was the only one who could ever do anything i love you hillary but you know everybody on board to do things and then once we became uh president once we took office the big problem with the stands is that there were so many people who were like barack obama you be all end all you can do no wrong and then he got into office and before we found the bathrooms people were protesting outside and the people protesting outside were not republicans and so i think that one um just holding someone up as a perfect specimen is never going to end well right saying that there is someone who can do no wrong you will defend everything they do until the end of time um it's also it like hurts your credibility so if you have the people out there who are like you know and there is sort of an expectation like if you go back it's like well if you really love barack obama listen you work for him like you would never criticize him and it's like no it doesn't mean that i don't i agree with every single thought the man has ever had um more than most people for sure but i think that it just sets up all these sort of false expectations for who a person is and what it actually means to be supportive um michaela have you ever found yourself coming up against political stands or finding yourself reacting as a political stand to criticism that was valid i mean i just started laughing because like before the ink was even dry on the on the inauguration papers there's inauguration papers right um that like when you buy a house i just closed on the presidency [Laughter] that i uh i i was already being brutally attacked on twitter by um by bernie bros you know and um just for making like a jokey video response to a friend uh where we were saying you know it all started because she said i broke the thermos you gave me but biden's president and that you know and so i just kind of started riffing on that and uh i'd be like i dented my car and i was like but biden's president and then i crank my music and just send her a video of me just rocking out and i was besieged by bernie bernie bros i guess for a lack of a because it was like mostly like 98 white men who uh wanted to tell me why i wasn't allowed to be happy because that's what women like i would love that hey why don't you find the one day that there's not a rapist living in the white house and tell me i'm not allowed to rejoice uh so and i just um i was sort of shocked but i was i remember that this is how it is i mean this is how it's been like you said alyssa with obama i probably fell into that category of a stan you know i mean i can only think of one thing that of his entire presidency that i didn't totally align with what was it the the the drones i i i absolutely hated when i found out what drones did and who they were hurting and how they operated and i was like if you changed the pronoun the proper pronoun on that and said it was any other president i would be really upset because i felt like there were so many cards stacked against him that i had to you know fiercely defend him and i think that's what happens with trump and i think that's what happens with bernie and i think that's i don't like any the truth is like i'm surprised that i could put myself in that category about obama because there's not even anything else in the entire world that i feel that strongly about um i i don't have any tattoos because i will i don't have conviction the only thing i get a cat tattoo of is is most likely my husband and for a hundred percent my dog and beyond that like nothing i remember going into my niece's bedroom and i tried to leave her a note and there was no room on the wall because you know it was all fall out boy posters and then a year later i made a joke about fallout boy and she like didn't talk to me for a week because she was like i should fall out by and i don't like fall out boy i'll never like you know so i just don't understand liking anything as a grown-ass person that much that you uh come out of the woodwork like you're an adult you're not 12. you know you shouldn't like anything that much um but uh but but politically and i think with the algorithms of twitter the other group that came after me was the ugandan uh liberation movement okay came after me for saying i i really love that that biden is president today why well because there's algorithms built in to twitter that show like somebody from the thousand followers of the ugandan liberation movement was like hey how can you be happy there's still you know kids in prison and uh kids in cages and everything like that i'm like come on it's been eight hours but um but i mean eight hours since we have a new president um but but uh but but i was besieged by this by like 15 people from the ugandan liberation movement not because they give a what the actress from the unicorn thinks about biden but because twitter is explaining to them this is who you need to be mad at this is how you need to be outraged which further makes them not consider who is posting and why they might be posting and how i was sort of making fun of myself anyway but that this is the thing i want to be mad at which makes people sound like stans when they're probably not even you know so where you know everybody saw the social uh dilemma right i started watching it yeah i started watching it and then i did did something i probably went on facebook oh it's really it's super danky but it it it does you know in a very like way to watch it with your kids very illustrative ways show how you know we're we're sort of you know being manipulated to feel super strongly about these things that i don't think adults necessarily do and as you were talking michaela i thought like whenever i've run a foul of stands and i've tried to ex like as it's happening it feels like the worst it's like i'm being attacked by all these people who are reading the worst possible thing into the thing that i just said that really had nothing to do with the issue that they're talking about they just want to get mad at something and here i am so they're getting mad at that and then when i explain it to people as i'm explaining it i'm like i feel crazy explaining yes like i feel this is so like if i could go back my i had a grandfather who died in 2009 and if i could go back if he if i could like go back in time and try to explain uh run in with some stands online he would be like go outside and play like this is not this doesn't feel real but um tien i want to talk to you about like the realness of like stand-up because yeah you can just like log off twitter but actually you know i i feel like twitter is sort of real life and when you want to run a follow stance you can't really the like real the real lifeness when i think of stan culture too i i also think of that it's not specifically about people too and this was like the topic that we were going to talk about i was like you know the thing that i think about most when it comes to stan culture is like the way people love america in a way that if you for example like colin kaepernick kneeling during the anthem that that infuriated people to such an extent and that wasn't on twitter like these are like you know your people out in the world having very valid what did you say meat space it's in meat space what i like to call irl also um and just like like that sort of stan culture of like getting so caught up in an ideology and also in in in specifically because i've just been uh with my in-laws a lot and when biden and harris won it was like a very we were all very excited um but then i think there were comments that were like america's fixed and i said one thing i was just like no it's it's not and then we like got into a huge fight about how like america is the greatest country in the world and i think it's what you said elissa of just like when you hold something to such a high standard you miss the real life like consequences of ignoring the the terrible and often like very violent things that can come from ideologies or people and their actions um without trying to figure out a way to have like a conversation about them so that's what i thought about when i heard stan culture i was thinking a little bit about this week uh chuck schumer aka no chuck uh sort of winning a power struggle with mitch mcconnell in the senate and um in an interview that he did with rachel maddow he pointed out that you know when obama and the democrats were negotiating uh the affordable care act in 2009 they made all these concessions for republicans and then no republicans voted for it so like it's time to stop negotiating with people who are never ever going to like you it's time to stop like and maybe instead i i guess this is my way of saying that like if you like a politician it can be a lot more productive for you to engage with them critically because it's more productive for somebody to negotiate with someone who's on their side than it is for someone to negotiate with somebody who just wants them to lose no matter what like imagine if democrats were negotiating with progressives and we were getting more progressive stuff put in to bills instead of what's happening essentially yeah i mean finally because no chuck might be afraid of being primaried uh but you know alyssa i i how do you check one he gives one and that is the that chuck gives one i mean one chuck also just has so many other different meanings at us um alyssa like in this in this age of us having our first female vice president which is very exciting uh and having a democrat in office which is very exciting especially compared to the last four years how do how do we engage like thoughtfully and maturely with people who are also we are rooting for that's a very good question you know i think that here is how i feel i think that right now it is really hard and i felt this very viscerally when we first took office it's like give us a chance right let's see like right now i think one of the interesting things you see i think and i think mostly people have been doing this but it's like right now we know what biden campaigned on we know the promises that he made we also know that right now he has come into office and found out that things that they thought were bad were twice as bad right they thought they were going to come in and have to amend a coveted plan they found out there is no covet plan and so i think that we need to give them a little room and politicians generally a little room once they win to sort things out because governing is nothing like campaigning and that's always like a rubber meets the road i mean even when we even when we won and then we went into the transition and you find out like you have all these grand plans and then they're like oh and you get like five staff people instead of the 50 that you had on the campaign and so everything takes a little bit of adjustment but i think that the most important thing is to really stop drop and roll when you hear something so the thing i think that we will suffer from for some time to come is that a lot of reporters got really famous with viral trump tweets and so now there is this who's gonna be the first one to tweet this out and get us all hopped up and get everybody engaged and and engaging with their tweet or whatever they posted on facebook or whatever and i think that we have to be as like mature as humanly possible because the thing is it's like if you're mad all the time you're not engaging with people it's like if if if i for example were always hate tweeting the biden administration and saying they never were doing anything right or that they were falling short on everything they're not listening me that's when they mute you and put you into the corner so i think that the most important way to engage is to really do your research understand when something comes out and is reported or some piece of news or some policy don't just read the first two paragraphs read all the way to the bottom if there are associated links you may want to click them and just understand why certain decisions are being made and then if you if you have all of your facts and you don't you don't uh you don't agree you think they've fallen short then i think in a very like not acerbic over the top super hyperbolic i hope you die you've fallen short you're such a loser you've let us all down i mean say exactly what it is that you wish and be thoughtful in how you say it i think that that's the problem is that for the last four years especially everyone's just kind of gotten by on being pissed off and rage tweeting and i don't i do think too that i'm sure you guys saw the i think like a very good example was the marshall plan for moms have you guys read about this a bunch of bunch of um very famous women and mothers put forward a plan in the it was new york times op-ed and it said that basically at this point as of now two million moms have been driven out of the workforce because of covid and how are we gonna get them back and that moms who are home homeschooling doing all this should be paid the marshall plan for mom calls for twenty four hundred dollar checks for the next year or however long to moms who are home because of covid and that was productive it gave examples it said white be helpful and like now as i understand it the biden people have seen that they're taking it on board do do i think that twenty four hundred dollars will ever happen i don't i mean they're having a hard time getting stimulus checks pets you know uh covered relief passed now because everyone's like we've done enough but i think thoughtful ways that are not accusatory that don't say there's the difference between failing and falling a bit short and so i think that people just really need to just i'll slow down a little bit and use your words a little bit better i know but it's so much more fun to yell i know but here's the thing if you are just pissed and you want to yell you can do that but if you're like really care about an issue and want to see like progress you might want to just calibrate the rage tweeting i don't think you have to get rid of it all together i agree with you alyssa but i also see that there is like i think on a certain level too there is a privilege to being able to channel that emotion in a very like thoughtful concise way because sometimes i mean like people are pissed and for very good reasons too and i think i i think having asking everyone to be able to like channel that in a way that is productive is also hard and i think i'm very valid for people to be like you know what this this is upsetting this is very we're not like we haven't gotten stimulus checks uh they're gonna put harriet tubman maybe on the 20 bill but like that doesn't help anyone right now so like i think there's very valid reasons to be still maybe rage tweeting a little bit no no i totally agree with you on that i just think that there are complicated issues that people don't take the time and i'm talking five minutes not hours here to read all the way down and understand what it is that they're rage tweeting about right and it's not so much i mean i totally when i saw the harriet tubman thing i was like are we talking about that right now is this what we're talking about right now that's like i might have put a pin in that one for a couple weeks but no i think it's it's more like what it's more like everything's happening now but people being super angry that he hasn't done things that we need to get past covid first to be able to address some of those things that's kind of that's more what i was talking about like you got to put on your pants before you put your shoes on yeah allegedly michaela what was on your mind well i just think if we have you know if we went through these four years and we haven't learned anything then what the hell were they even about like what the the thing you know like even one chuck has learned something you know he's learned like where his time is useful and where he can negotiate and where he can't and now that the shoe's on the other foot and he gets to be you know the one who gets to have final word on a lot of things how you move forward how you interact how you like one thing that's great is we don't have a psychopath in office who really doesn't care genuinely about anything but himself it that person is gone so now what the first thing that people need to understand is you don't have a psychopath who only cares about himself in office you may not agree with everything but you're not he's not a psychopath so there is at least human uh tissue there so human organism you know who's like operating consciously you know debatable whether you think it's like six percent or two percent you know and but at least there's like a conscience there you know but the the one thing that i i mean one of the things that i've really taken away is indoctrination and mind control and i think that that that kind of uh all or nothing kind of thinking is so dangerous and so uh debilitating and when i hear myself i think everything that we see in these trump supporters who are all in on this guy are all things that i'm completely capable of myself and so i have learned that i am now really conscientious about how i'm speaking and what i'm talking about and and that i'm going to hold the um you know biden's feet to the fire and not in a way where uh i'm more interested in my self-righteousness but in a way that does this further conversation because we can't lay the groundwork for conversation with people from other side the other side then what are we what are what are we how are we growing how are we moving forward what are we doing you know if it's people like who are just never ever ever gonna see my side that's the other thing i've learned like i'm i'm not gonna try with you just like chuck i'm not even you know this is not worth my energy in it and i just posted the other day yesterday about my friend's art show and it was like i told him i said i i just so you know i did post about your art show but you know nobody cares unless i'm screaming at somebody nobody cares but but i think that's that's everything that i i've hated about these four years i'm now constantly looking to see in myself am i falling completely in line with an ideology with a person with a savior somebody who's gonna come help us out of this thing you know i'm all for elizabeth warren and you no you can't say anything bad about elizabeth warren but i promise you i have learned that if elizabeth warren magically became our president that i would have conversations otherwise we find ourselves exactly where we've just been and yeah i mean it seems like the issue here is the blurring of the line between politics and celebrity like it's fun to be a fan of a celebrity being a stan of a celebrity might be a little bit toxic and consuming but like politicians are not celebrities even though we know who they are and a lot of us and there are you know our last president was a celebrity who became a politician i really hope that we can build the wall between uh the person there was an eo saying there'd be no wall but i really want to build the wall between um what it means to be a fan of a person who is making art and what it means to be a fan of a person who is making policy and i think art can be very political obviously they're going to be people who like who who are the exceptions that prove the rule and fall on either side of that but like you know i think it's kind of fun to to be like chrissy teigen's perfect how dare you get mad about her you know it's like it's fun you know if chrissy tegan were running for office and she was like i just don't think the public option is a great idea i would be like chrissy teagan what's wrong with you you know i'm a big fan of you otherwise but like this is not this is not it so it just seems to me like the celebritiness of as much as so many people in washington so thirst to be celebrities we should not give them that like that is not what they're there to do they're not there to be entertaining yeah exactly i mean i remember alyssa when right before the election or i think we had talked about how we were infuriated that all these politicians were like dunking on each other on twitter yeah and it's like i you know i do love that fine yes it's fun to see but at the end of the day i don't i don't want to see you dunking on each other like it makes me so uncomfortable it makes me uncomfortable totally is like a perfect example of that where he's got some ace comebacks he's like he's in the he went to the aaron gloria ryan uh school of talking yeah dunking and and and and props to him but also i'm like i i'm kind of like okay switch the gear because i don't think this is fruitful yeah right i mean that's how we get ted cruz that's how we get ted cruz yeah thinking that he's winning fights with seth rogen not winning he's not okay seth rogen is a first of all pottery master second impressively so like unbelievably good at pottery um secondly uh way smarter and funnier than ted cruz but ted cruz has no awareness of how lame he is no it's not only that ted cruz loves that seth rogen's engaging with him he loves it it makes you feel so cool ted cruz is like we both have beards now so yeah i can engage with you and seth rogen you and i are the same we are brothers on twitter it's like when they tried remember for a week they tried to make the right wing daily show did they really just wasn't funny it just wasn't there was no it was just wasn't funny there were no jokes it's like i mean objectively objectively not even a little bit funny it wasn't wow yeah you know it's it's funny to bring it around to where we started um i was talking about michaela you mentioned throwing an axe at somebody and i you know said let's let's not be violent but i would do a dunk tank where i could pay you know money and go dunk someone that was very unlikable i think i would pay a thousand dollars to dunk ted cruz i would pay a thousand dollars wow i think document an ice cold dunk tank we could solve we could solve the national debt if we just charged between 100 and a thousand dollars for whoever wants to can dunk ted does i want a tank of jellyfish i want that to get stung like crazy i think instead of a dunk tank a punk tank so like i could punk ted cruz and i and what it is is like ted cruz thinks he's going to like um do like a commercial or something like that and so you put them in the most brutal of shooting conditions like it's super cold but he's in a t-shirt and and he has to you know his call time is like 4am but there's no commercialization they're doing cbs presents the revenant the revenant is now a series on cbs and he's just in the leo roll [Laughter] that was a great conversation about standum i hope that you know we can all proceed forward through this period of democratic control engaging thoughtfully and lovingly with the ways that the democrats up because they will but they're also gonna do things that are not fuck-ups so i'm looking forward to that you