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okay we're alive let's see how this works out so welcome to the round table and we're gonna title this episode the Battle of the free marketeers so in order to do so we have raised quite a quite I would call a very prestigious cast we've raised our resident Austrian economists Julia Javaid hello and you know I was walking on the street I wasn't sure who I was gonna get as a partner and then this guy came off me he was so good to help us I mean he rose himself from the dead just to come on this podcast people welcome Clement Attlee spiders tend to deceive anyway so leaving all the jokes aside this will be a debate between 18 economic economists and an Austrian and we're gonna debate well not to be more discuss several questions referring to the free market yeah sure okay so uh Julia would you like to ask the first question I yeah you you mentioned something about the market in Chile or only getting better after 1982 yes it's still the age of penetration it's still his age but there was actually transitions that some people don't understand there was the first initial era the Chicago boys and monetarist era of Milton Friedman from 1973 until 98 issue which ended in actually when the Latin American debt crisis of 1982 started and she actually was the heat on Chile was the hardest between between all the Latin American economies countries yes I mean yes and I disagree with you on that because I that I buy that by the time the coup happened in 73 the situation in Chile was so bad the I mean inflation had turned into hyperinflation and the current the currency the currency inflation and everything the level of unemployment everything it was so bad that to like give a little to all the students of Friedman who went there and helped Pinochet with restoring the economy because the economy was already so bad you can I mean when you have such a controlled economy as I ended Salvador I and I had it's hard to say that it was the chicago school of thought that help helped them around because I mean even if the even if they had a controlled state capitalist government even then the economy would have improved because the situation was very terrible at the time of after Salvador and they had implemented if nationalizing policies because the problem is that excuse me a second wait a second so anyway Clemence tell us me about your work which walk about what well you plan to be an economist about your of your views on the economy you know my Morrison seems actually a contestant on economics my views are actually stands in the our use of heterodox I mean there is the Orthodox views of economics which basically are the no classical and why the deal is polluted any work it so they not the views are that basically our throat in mainstream academia is no classical music and its use that are was developed basically after the in 1050 century starting with Alfred Marshall actually the Austrian reviews are also heterodox in a different direction for post-keynesian views our minds are basically part of the proteins in school there is absolutely the famous branch mmt non modern monetary I think even you guys could hear about it on self kind controversial views just moderate Chile would you like to explain your views yeah my problem my problem with can I start with my problem with Keynesianism I would rather you actually state your views first then tell me or follow the Kings easily actually finishes quickly slap people actually somewhere everyone's coming from that we both agreed that things were bad under IND we I mean we all agree that the socialist policies of I under would never have worked in Chile because the only natural resource still a hard was copper and nationalizing is not going to make you a lot of money look I want to if it's pickable okay we can also not if we speak about I landed so violently there is was a problem with him I agree with you I mean he was not a king he was a Marxist we have to remember that Alan there was a Marxist and he plan to he plan to transition the economy not to more social the move to more social democratic or kings here economy no basically what I call big government capitalism he was not a man of the capture of big oven capitalism he was a man of central plant economy Allende and I disagree with central plant economy I will tell you more my parents came from the Soviet Union so I know exactly how sorry for my language central plant economy is centrally planned economy is so I not disagree with you that that paths at the land they wanted for Chile is really bad cop and I can't believe it use it if we speak about you we speak about that basically the coop of Pinochet maybe save Chile from central plant economics but you know you can you know basically you can cure bad policies in different ways well I mean if you want to look you policy but all of you can cute different ways if there is a better dollar chicken killed in a different place in different ways I mean you can cure sickness in different ways I mean you can you can kill the disease by killing the person and this way it's not it's not really useful so basically we have to understand that even to I disagree with a Yenta and I disagree like Jalil and you are like you disagree talented I don't think that the recipes of the Chicago boys were good for Chile and there are different paths to take in order to rescue Chile from Central and economics and to actually make the Chilean economy grow the same policies which have been implemented after 1982 if you're speaking about it there's the less least known facts about Chile even though the second Pinochet got to be the share rule I mean the second is the basic you want to say sure okay here's the thing yeah I agree with you I would I would disagree with you on saying that I am there was all and they want wanted all the centralized government I mean I to a certain extent even Keynesianism endorses a central government don't you think Chelsea are basically things that the cops at the market need the support of the car in the market need to be regulated there is even a case form some nationalization of let's see water supply you know because it's like a basic it's talked about is a basic good or a tasty supply you can nationalize for a short time even industrial industrial enterprises but important develop them not in not for to not in order to make a central plant economy because it's going against against the capitalism and King seals are still capitalist as I say I always say I always say the time of big government capitalism but I'm still a capitalist and yeah I ever wanted to transition to centrally planned economies yes yeah so the thing is you mention the Chicago boys as I look we all know I am this policy's changed very radically after he got elected we have to remember he was elected democratically like people chose him and he was a very radically socialist kind of a guy and yes he was a he he nationalized everything and you know there's a there is this kind of saying that he he promised everyone that he would he would send a bottle of wine to their houses but he didn't know how to pay for them and that is true to be honest because he Jeanette Chile does not have the kind of natural resources that can be used in a that can be nationalized so that you have a government where government where so for example the the nationalization of the Suez Canal no that's understandable because that is going to bring money for the government the Egyptian government and NASA planned it through because that gave money to the Egyptian government which he then put into social programs I mean he was an Arab socialism I mean we can debate the other melts later but they nationalized oil because they they used or they use oil as a force for spending on their centralized government now they also use centralized governments but their centralized governments work because or the during the oil boom Libya made a lot of money Egypt made a lot of money but generators did not have this kind of oil or postal country the west of the Andes so I'd like to interject sorry can we keep this to the actual issue of Chile and please not go into Middle East they know anyway so generate Chile is this small country on the on the western coast of the Andes so they did not have the natural resources to have a good central central economy that's why I and this policies did not work and by the time he knows it means that the economy is in such bad condition it is hard for us to understand how well the policies of the Chicago boys played out how well the second Hunta after 1982 played out so I think there is no oh great yeah we can we can actually make assessment of what happens there and I can answer you about it think about this case with some associations and if it's good or bad but first we can actually check what happened in before in 1930 73 until 1982 there was indeed a problem we know but first of all we need don't need to forget two things about even the copper and what something has happened in times of all the end in terms of all the end we should not basically forget the role of the United States with their states actually I don't know you justify until the end there as you know I mean I want just to say something not related but sometimes right about when it so a lot but they never you know approve Chavez or something of course not I don't think they did because it's the same here Ali nd yes he did bad policies he basically the policy that are not good but as we know now and as we know form the records of the Senate American Senate the Americans in purpose fuel the crisis more the great situation where the inflation will be higher by forced by basically sanction the sales of copper which are not basically composed one of the main industries of Chile the worst another Western countries to to embargo Chile's copper and they forced them into serious rate attack deficit and if you think about it the first they don't allow the IMF to help Chile without basically you know without Chile meal and begging us for help so we shouldn't forget the parts parts partial problem of the regime was American intervention with Chile situation which and we shouldn't forget the fact that actually American companies ruled the copper industry in Chile and in time the rules the copper industry in Chile they force the Chileans to sell copper less than twice than the price in the international market so here is a lot of problems which we can see from United States policies which to more chilling and yes so let the situation which basically a Yenta was in now of course I'm not saying that alley under a sorry I'm not saying that alley and the it Sampson would be disposed but when we speak about in a shed rule the first phase of his rule well basically that when he started to implement his policies the unemployment went up the income inequality is formed there was a rapid growth in income inequality there was a repeat of in unemployment there was a basically stagnating societies a stagnating economy the economy started even be in even worse situation than before even to the inflation was taking under control but it was taken under control by really crazy me really crazily basically means by basically losing losing capital controls I know I mean actually screwing against it but okay they basically lifted capital controls and instead tried to put an elector third 300 percent interest rates central bank interest rates what is the current scene chill I'm sorry and no okay chillin peso don't know but they put Salt Lake City 100 percent interest rates which forced many companies into bankruptcy we are speaking about a situation where the Chile Chilean miracle was not actually a miracle it it was actually a serious recession happened chill it's chill started to basically somehow grow in 1978 when I am F convinced in Austria to lift all financial direct action regulation they did this and basically there was a financial bubble if we you know from our perspective currently we know a big financial bubble which basically as we also know in 1982 this bubble caused the greatest crisis in crisis from all order greatest crisis is not in America Chile had the worst consequences of this crisis so if we speak about this period of the experiments with radical neoliberalism I don't see how it's actually worked well I don't see where is the miracle is similar the treatment basically told the beautiful story but actually the story had nothing to do with the facts but after 1982 people who took control after it we can call them basically right-wing development is king since he has right-wing conservative King James to control they started form assuming capital controls they even nationalized most of the industries of course the parameters the nature but if the if they was not doing it if they was going if they was listening to the advices of Milton Friedman and give them to ban to go bankrupt those businesses then a lot of children industry today will be in ruins I don't think the children every cup of really welcomed us instead the nationalist is of course later they basically privatized again you know they basically just got all the losses on the government and they start the race tarrifs from 10 percent to 40 percent the rated tariffs on goods basically they started they started to use fiscal stimulus budget deficit in order to create environmental full employment or after the children started to recover and we shouldn't forget the role of the copper industry the copper industry was not privatized by Pinochet I mean maybe it was privatized as I remember for one two years but they today much less the care and the us hang the revenues yes I think the reason that he's being nationalized the copper industry was because of the the blowback rate that the US was forcing Chile to sell their corporate I think the in the end copper was being sold at half the international market price he pirated for time but then he the reason he nationalized it again after two years was because I think and this is just my opinion I think because he was he wasn't a big fan of US intervention as well so he thought that reen analyzing it but not as radically as I end I had done with a proper a proper decentralized nationalized called the copper market so that the US could not take advantage of their industry anymore and you are right I agree the reason he he nationalized that was to develop the yes of the u.s. built the year the u.s. regulations and other price ceilings sellings agree with you on that one but look here's the thing I Milton Friedman was no great guy I mean he on some issues I think Friedman was basically his economic policies were evil to be honest and some circumstances because he he thought of corporations as human means that's what he did that's why I endorse the Austrian model of it economics much better than you know socialist say that people should people should have control over over everything well if you read what Hayek says some of what his gold standard is is that the the inefficiency in corporations comes when the jobs become the ends not the means and that that's when people start to work for things that they don't want they don't want in their life and they're not working to live better they're just working to put food on their tables that's outside of the gold standard and that that happens in Keynesian economics because of debt and that happens because of spending because of government intervention and because of the flat currency that is caused by the boom and woman bust core economic cycle that the Indianism creates that's why is so you know mine coming so we're gonna move into the second question now which is that finish something small one yeah go ahead Sheila don't look I want to say something interesting about the copper industry the revenues of the copper industries was used by an agency which basically helped a lot of businesses in children to be established businesses it related topic culture business it related to service sector which are still really prosperous today so there is sometimes there is rational to national so the second question refers to the question of debt and government spending yes so since clement started the last one Julie would you like to start this one nope Mike my simple gripe with government spending is I would like to start just give me a minute and I'll tell you one of the main things that the Austrian school preaches is that after World War 2 the u.s. found a very a very good means of continuing spending because the teams had gains and realized after the Great Depression that making sure that the US economy doesn't bust completely is to make sure that government spending is flowing you know there are different pipes inside the government and if you you keep the spending juices flowing the government will not bust so I know kind of how done how did he either he realized that because during World War two there was full employment because everyone was working in the factories or in the military or in the Navy and businesses were booming because of all the spending on board so he that's why kids I think government spending in Keynesianism there is a term called ball Kimsey anism so that's why Keynesianism in in terms of government spending relies on wall it has always realized always relied on for and Ron Paul said as long as we have a government intervention this policy with huge spendings or we cannot end once okay I want to answer this question the problem here and why actually Keynesian related war is because conservatives don't allow to spend enough in order to basically create prosperity and full employment in order times the only time that conservatives allow to spend I mean budget effort to do budget deficits in order to create full employment let in relief aside the short perk you just call today they called the age of capitalism between 1950 97 3 yes in period of war you may speak that's why sometimes Clinton will Keynesianism less to war because the Conservatives in this case I basically put no Liberal Democrats and you know new labor new Democrats and another another you know left-wing types that actually are young liberals in the same camp with conservatives they done a law basically the country to spend enough in order to create good jobs for people good-paying jobs so they will be able to pursue their happiness in life it was writen in the American Constitution so when basic what basically were basically I want to say it's a basically but you currently have one same quasi though standard in the world there is one region in the world that actually have quasi gold standard even to fear even to sphere but by the impulse imposed how it impose on governments if it can't spend on another is one region like this it's called the euro zone and we see different sequences of the euro zone Greece 20 percent unemployment it still have negative growth its have a problems prior to God Italy or almost all the countries except maybe Germany which actually control it are suffering from this classical standard normal countries if if Greece had drama cool basically spend it spend itself out of depression but because it's have no drama and it's relied it's reliant on Germany and on the ESU ECB Europe and Central Bank you create enough money in order to yes I just like to step in I have a quick question so you've kind of piqued my interest now about something how do you feel about the Irish recovery since we're talking about the ECB and the currently race to the bottom you heard about this it's elaborate for everyone okay the rest of the battle is basically the idea which not ideas basically how corporations do mostly they try to find places where the taxation is lower in order to record the their operations there for example there is many corporations that now go to Ireland and [Music] move their financials I'm sorry how to say cooperation that says they like say that they are like Irish company now they moved themselves not the operations the operations thing in other countries but they like Irish company I mean they register in Ireland yes yes in order to basically avoid higher taxation Irish and basically as one of the big tax havens in the world yes I know tax haven is not exactly the right definition because everything is clear it's not that they are like hiding from accountants around the world the textual but actually they were doing like improper tax haven but they're using their low taxation in order to you know in order to get more companies registrated there then look for one country it may be helpful but if all other countries in European Union or in the world will try to do the same strategy it will be self-defeating it's actually pretty much agree with you on that fundamental analysis but at the lowest country and initial weaker institutions you know post-communist countries and actually as we can see from makedonia for example this country is not sure it's having not really good economic recovery it still has something like 20% unemployment if I don't forget Macedonia isn't the forum you start public of Macedonia is not in the European Union you're referring to miss Bulgaria will change their name autistic screeching going on about that or something right we're on it you know you know these these Slovak people they love making a lot of history you know they know can make maybe it's not the least taxed fixed place Hong Kong is by the way Nader though this tax place for corporations but there still is a hub and if we speak about there's networking effects like you know if it's places have a good PR and a lot of companies go there so more companies that come through as well it sounds like you know just a little curiosity I had in court Clement go first okay just want to finish it there was like time when there was a big difference between the GDP and GNP domestic products and gross national product the difference between GDP and GNP is that in gross domestic product GDP is recording only what happens in the country and GNP records only what what happens with the Nationals of the country even if okay now Judy okay first of all let me I have something to add in Ireland you know we mentioned Macedonia etcetera the thing is and I don't think a link can be called a tax haven because they don't have the kind of laws that can prevent companies from getting information on you etc I think what Ireland is known for best is being one of those countries in the EU with the best tax codes one of the easier task boards and one of the lower tax codes in the EU not Europe as a whole but in the EU because if you look at the world Panama have Panama has a zero percent tax rate I mean if you if you saw the Panama leaks you can find out that is a lot of work yeah I mean I don't know if you have followed the story but our prime minister just got indicted for putting more is money there and the second thing okay well although look for a second put salmon here on mute will continue so now that we have a moment we'll do what we did before tell us a bit about your views your economic views let's have look Mike my views of a simple thing is I studied economics politics sociology everything together alright and when you're studying anything for example social mistake sociology or politics people are subjects they tend to have different tribal groups or individual subunits of a whole larger category all right which organizes the word which can be known as the different schools of thoughts like the Chicago's would have thought the Austrian school of thought or the Keynesian school all right king is all these all these schools are known for their collectivity all right thing I find with the Austrian school is that the gold standard of its be centralization and the fact that they believe that real real production is that of things that people demand people don't demand scard missiles and cruise missiles you know cheap virtual reality virtual reality video games that's what people demand so real entrepreneurship is that ok that's why I like Austrian economics that's it simple is bring it back to you the question you the point you were making about Harlem yes yes sure you were talking about GNP and GDP 1 minus M is hard one of them is higher which one is hired they're high one was GDP for the time he was rehired and GNP it's so with that that problem is still prevalent in my country because the higher one is 1.6 1.06 trillion but the lower one is for four hundred billion what does that mean the way is lower which let me tell you let me tell me I'm ok GDP is one point zero six zero trillion dollars and PPP GDP PPP is one point zero six trillion and GDP nominal is three hundred four point four billion I'm sorry would you mind explaining to the viewers what exactly that means what those acronyms means okay purchasing power parity and not nominal is the one okay go ahead go ahead yes there is the difference between nominal and PPP PPP is like jus real the real purchasing power inflation and adjusted to local tastes because for example rice in China is something more malleable than rice in Russia okay but I think all another thing is that he mentioned that gia GDP and GNP are becoming closer together like before a long time ago there was a huge difference GDP were GNP was in the trillions and GDP was in only billions and in the Western world this problem is not prevalent anymore but in third world countries such as mine this problem is still present and I say you bigger the GDP or GNP the GNP is over a trillion dollars and the GDP is well alright yes it's not to lower to the 350 billion the if so Jen pH in peace fire it's means that there is a lot of wealthy Pakistanis Italy outside the country its I see exactly there is a relationship Pakistani diaspora yeah there is direction actually sir there is a really there is a lot of famous rich Pakistanis outside of Pakistan it's funny that goes back to and I think a hundred years ago because after after independence India wasn't at very good terms with the United Kingdom but Pakistan was India really mad that they gave the Muslims their own country so Pakistanis invested a lot of their money there rather than the new country like for example investment yes it sure yeah all it also related to investment outside of the country and I'll tell you one more thing like now investment investment in Pakistan is coming through now in the last six seven months I've seen after that the Chinese bean investment started coming through and the GDP even the domestic product has been increasing and the gap has been closing so the main the main here that that's good so the main problem is that GNP and GDP closes down when domestic investment becomes higher depends on the country depends on the situation for example the GNP of Ireland was Israel or both ways of served most were lower than G deployed yeah it was I will tell you the story about a third story and they want to say something important when there is when we see the name when we say investment we need to differentiate between two kinds of investments real investment and financial investment financial investment is like hot air if there is no real investment in something tree or like factories like construction like anything else the financial investment is speculations now you have financial investment two more they will go somewhere else and that's one of the high points with Islands Island is basically God's huge amount of financial influence but there is a big but there is not so many there is not a lot of real inflows a real capital formation there is no no no not real capital formation in our capital formation I mean for our listeners it's basically like building factories constructing buildings and except asset infrastructure basic infrastructure factories you know businesses you know what I think we should I would like to I would really like to know your views on the the infrastructure plan that Trump proposed I mean first of all let's get this through the fact that it is there we hardly have six or seven percent chance that his infrastructure plan will even be approved by Congress considering that at least 80 percent of the Congress doesn't even like what he's proposing but his infrastructure program reverse 150 billion to others put in his first year how do you think that's going to work out if it will be implemented it will be of course important for some reasons the first reason we speak about infrastructure proper the American infrastructure is in a really bad shape frankly is it something not even do you ask but I'm always hearing about it yeah the - it gets a greater P - oh boys just give me one minute I'll be right back I have to charge I have to get the charger as well until then you guys nothing yes okay that's right if I'm gonna put chili on you again and we'll continue so uh you were saying you're a big fan of NM TSI correct i mean i'm post-keynesian so i have this agreement yes are you like 70 and why would you not like the job guarantee plan because it will become a bureaucratic mess there is some positions you have to you know ensure in theory it's beautiful time the problem with this plan is basically said you have to find a boatful person so it will be not-for-profit so it will be something that you like to do and something that needed in order to achieve all these plans you need to basically we need to basically plan it's a lot of planning planning required bureaucracy and unless you are making a really serious bureaucracy even with you-know-who computerization everything still will have a lot of people to do this it will become a mess and as I know from experience for my time Chan is really actually like heaven when we go there is like the army people have to go down for three years the guys courtiers and girls for two years so you can go down or you can go to health charities and everything is good but when the people come to share it is the charities say we don't need so much people we better bett better the garden to give us no money for food or money for shelters or whatever else between don't need so much people here especially if they are not specialized in something so I see it is we will become a mess it will basically be Lord trust to the people on the state I prefer more indirect market-based solutions we current iteration of course with our information but it should be based on stimuli fun incentives you know ad-hoc job creation sorry lost connection there kogane Hey Hey yak nearly you know you just say you said add and then the thing went can you say it again I mean I am I am for intervention but in the end still should be in the framework of capitalist incentive system that's fair okay I have a counterpoint to that I think all of us agree that too much government spending is not a good thing but I I just wanna make a key point for the grid does not the great recession the recession of 2008 and nine now the government's bailed out the big corporations right they did not do it they didn't do anything for the people a lot of people people a lot of people lost their houses and everything yeah so don't you think if the government had Obama one of my main criticisms of Obama is that his stimulus package was too Corp Corp corporate centrist right of course if his stimulus package had included working class people middle class people who had suffered under the recession then yeah then the economy would have become better my marginal propensity to spend I will explain it not to the participant is how much out of a newly newly accepted income the person will spend of who people is very higher than average people which people spend way less on consumption than poor people from their income it's known fact yeah except in the mainstream economics when they basically model all people as if they have the same tastes as if they have the same capacity to consume and basically we're all clones of one as we're like a big we're all clones with the same like robots with everything identical so except mainstream economists everyone knows that which people spend less on consumption than poops and when we have a crisis and crisis caused by lack of demand I demanded the economy the best way to help the economy is to help the poor and the middle class the working class and the middle class and I agree with you we should remove you for example instead of being out the banks and as we know by the way there is the FDIC right everybody I see so all the deposits of people guaranteed anyway it's not a problem so even have empty Ric and you have all people deposits guaranteed no matter the bank or product or not the way better plan let's assume even we want to bail out let's bail older people with emojis let's write the government should pay all the Nordics of the people why not why not faithful people from private debt which is equally adverse exam quarantine in our I just want to finish guys sure sure these people basically indepted their life yeah crazy like lead soul in depth so it will be great if the government will bail out the people instead those big financial corporations it's true yeah that's the thing I mean after the mid that we we can talk about a great example of this would be Roosevelt's New Deal after World War two where the stimulus package that he presented on the people it was focused on putting people back to work after the war it and then the MA it also included the Marshall Plan and I think that's why that was a golden age this is 50 60 70s were a golden age for American consumerism because the stimulus packages were all directed towards people who would spend more patience use this money in order to outsource the jobs from United States to another countries even if you speak about optimation okay that's to build automated factory it's important if they it's actually important they build it in America and China why because the United States can always create more jobs but it cannot create more foreign currency in foreign currencies violent rain so it's so the arguments about automation to take jobs anyways not important here if the corporation's is money able to absorb them some out basically you know they basically really the people I'm sorry for men and and in fact the taxpayers about the government they everyone exactly exactly I completely agree with you and another issue that I really wanna touch base on with you is I think Tom Thomas will would love to contribute to this because it's his continent homicide how much were you with us whoo yeah are you are you with it yeah Thomas yes are you with us oh yeah I'm here all right service we were talking about me and you we were talking about brexit so I I was wondering you know us if you would like to tell us is it possible that given that they're the only Great Britain has only two years to negotiate a brexit deal is is it possible that France and Germany and everyone in Brussels might try to get again get them to sign a bad deal so that the economy suffers because I'm pretty sure they would love to get revenge on the British Cronin objects well first of all I'm the moderator so I shouldn't be too too engaged but uh I personally don't think that a deal will be struck I don't think that Britain will sign a bad deal I think Britain would sooner weather a lack of a deal than a bad deal that being said I am not so Clements what about you president of France or Chancellor Germany or head of the European so I can't really tell you how this is gonna play out because actually the eurozone this is a stop here for its people for the countries except Germany which basically built its fall fries we're speaking about this the European is actually full fry of like such a state I like Germany so much I prefer for Germany's basically I mean yes yes I think this this portray me Reich was much much better than the third one because at this time they actually got Britain they get the conquered Britain for it they actually care well of course yes yeah I think the conquered the Britons for at least twenty years before the market a little bit too much he was here only their independence Yes Prime Minister huh I mean Britain's only two great gifts to the world was Adam Smith and you know British comedy I prefer British comedy compared to imagine I don't know your Marion County to be very witty anyway back to the conversation I think that actually basically it's important that the Parliament or the people depends on the country will be more over a than any transmission organization if you're speaking about this clearly no matter if I like the policy of the transition in organization or not I think the people directly who the Parliament have to be more sober than this but if you speak about European Union policies they are basically some in some sense they're worse than the policies even Republicans in America when proposed and I'm speaking of course on the environment because there is you know you need to try hard to divorce an environment in Republican states that's going to be hard yeah there are basically some things of wars like you just speak about the Maastricht Treaty which for some sheep like three maksoon of 3% of GDP budget deficits which we see how its harm both Italy Greece and another countries as we see how basically these institutes institutions Monica speak many see when there was problem for German in France in 2002 and they had to basically have big budget deficits the European Union tried to stop them but they said if you try to stop us we'll stop you first I was asleep I was completely against the the dogs dirty my marriage that murdered talk and also another thing I would like what I support in graduate as well I mean as an outsider but my reasons were a bit different my reasons were that first of all the European Union was becoming too strong and the European the link between the European Union and NATO is scary to be quite honest yeah or cracy but not in the sense of you know like a bureaucrat from the government is actually where the bureau is the crazy the not vice-versa it's and the European it's in if you look at that the code of the european it's it's a very cuff high score it's not mccarthy them all over again and then they are very very dystopic you are completely correct on that and the questions lemon do you think that the EU is that is kind of a confederacy or is it even stronger than a confederacy because in a confederacy states for the world more at least 95 percent of their rights but a determination but you think that you is more of kind of a united states type situation all confederate confederacy the type of situation exists in confederacy important this trunk strong care about the weak here the weak have to care about strong it's not a confederacy of federation it's actually Germany and its vassals exactly exactly I'm to be honest i am very critical of Merkel and I'm surprised that she is still ahead in the polls I hope she loses I said god I hope she knew I am fortunate we lose because this this has gone on for too long and I think the EU needs to I think that I think the pen was right when in her manifesto I mean I disagreed with the pen on almost everything she was just and populist with no real proper agenda but she was right when she said that we need to renegotiate the EU treaty or else we should just mean because it's getting too strong it's getting to the a tumor it's becoming a global hegemony because I'm glad Trump is challenging it I'm I said Europe have to decide once and for all or it's become United States of Europe and it is catered if you look here it's really care about the countries they're not only about if they wanna become the United a nicer Europe they can but they have to stop pretending that they you know they give each other self-determination they don't yes in this case it's not conscious of states and all the states should care about each other it shouldn't be like yes you should be sold and something else should be Arabic are like you know cooperation treaties or whatever else should be like yeah a corporation corporation make a great corporation or any economic Union yes it shouldn't be a cop to government I can it's a government means I can I can I can tell you already the next victim of the euro zone will be either Portugal or Spain Spain because their economies happen their economies have been lagging for the last decade of course why because Germany basically exports to other countries because the euro is too strong for other countries but for Germany the you are so cheap yeah exactly and when they expose about sinks they actually export with a feeling demands from other countries and there is an employment and they can't even have a normal interest rate policies capital control policies because of the new agreements and they can have trade policies for example I'm not really for free trade I'm not for close range but countries have to regulate straight and capital flows because yeah it's giving them independence sovereignty sovereignty if you form them yes you can force Mexico just if you force them free movement of capital free movement of goods the people you have to create a country which cares about it which have solidarity without it's come come down yeah it's a constant government and you know this this this DC disillusion that the you high-tech I don't think that the Great Britain left just because of Muslim immigration I think it was immigration from countries like Poland etc as well also played a huge role because I think with the Polish are in huge diaspora in Great Britain aren't they yes there's no policy you know yes so so you know this idea that you know this breaks breaks it was racist or all that it's the most stupid nonsense I've ever heard to be on the problem is mass migration must be Gration to a national stage is massive exactly exactly and look what are they doing now they telling Serbia Hungary and check Czech Republic that if they do not take their coat off refugees they are going to be penalized kind of a trans now at a transnational Union does that like Astana think yeah this was clash with European values I mean for you European people it's like not politically correct to say but we know this ones are so different so of course the will be serious clash when people like this counter I mean the problem is these refugees if all these refugees being you know the people from upper classes like yourself it may be a problem not migration of even massification find highly skilled people is a problem but at least there's you can create social cohesiveness because there is some kind of shell bounce but when we think about rural population for Muslim countries as you know you never remember remember no how do you expect us some some farmer from Punjab here in Pakistan to start working in Belgium or Brussels or Netherlands possible look here's the thing look I'm only half Pakistani right no not a half no no half French Algerian ah I'm a French le yeah no not not arable do in French oh so like if if I go of course I'm not going to go to Europe anytime soon I might go in in a few years but for before this business or something else but when I go I always know what what I'd be doing because I spent four years in in the EU I spent I spent a year in Algiers is a lot like a European city it is a coastal city and it's mostly a tourist City so mass emigration is bad I don't think any of us here says that there should be no emigration of course I don't think no right so all all we're saying is look needs to be controlled and this is not about racial racism or anything else it's basically about the fact and look you idiots the only reason that these these rich people don't care about these days people don't care about the refugees all they care about is the cheap labor coming into their country of course now this is hurting the working class in the end is for the country that car just because when also many people come you can't assimilate them very soft policies I mean is that maybe you cannot you will be like really super strict assimilation forces which are currents they are you know not politically correct and you know nobody nobody in the moderate spectrum will ever apply them on people stricter assimilation policies and on the exterior factor if you speak about right-wing dirt don't care about the simulation they care about racial policies in Europe so nobody will do it anyway so when people come and when people come with me for PvE but III have to expand on your point that you cannot have a soft policies you're completely correct that's the problem in the UK for this is about simulation what happens is there's a suburb where only Indians there there's a suburb where only Polish people live this does not happen in the United States position it's wood because at least until recently I now I see transform move the cultures but the mother was nothing taught not inside the bone this is yes look if you look at this normal population in Europe it's the most radicalized in the Western world if you look at that of America I mean a small recent stats at least sixty percent of them agree with homosexual marriage which is a surprise to me I was in America Canada and Australia these three places I think are liberal but in Europe they are very radicalized I think even this generation of Muslims in Europe is even more radicalized compared to the last one and yes I actually yes it's circular I mean ok there is a crack there is maybe mask you know in the holiday so whatever but actually for secular people yeah maybe but you see now three few generations later and you get the hobbies they are suddenly and I and I despised the threesome a for the same thing and this is something I'm gonna sound harsh but I I'm sorry but the UK is not doing enough to terrorism and immigration is not the only problem with terrorism the main problem with terrorism I will have to agree with Jeremy Corbyn here he said it correct Saudi Arabia is the greatest enemy sorry as we know and we have to assume a union have to understand yeah and the Western world have to understand if you don't go in the way of assimilation stay with them for the stipulation in the end it's ending up in Western world case on still the scientific of race racial ideologies like not exactly exactly that's that's why for far-right cope with the far-right but what was created last year yes and it's one it's going to get worse if Merkel stays in power yes if you are not caring about culture Indian people start caring about race and it's way more dangerous and it's horrible when people start to care about race here's the thing about and social convention and speaking about if you'd give up hamburger you know I think about kebab WaMu girl speaking about more fundamental things yeah I agree with you look if some son someone like me wanted to wanted to immigrate for example to someplace like I won't go to the UK okay I'm if I wanted to go to Dublin why would I want to go there because I find it I think I I don't know I want to want to go to top ones Mississippi because this is tougher so us okay so the reason I would go there is because I like their culture I would want to assimilate I would not want to go I would not want to go there so that I can live in my own little bubble if I want to live in my little bubble I will stay in my own country yes oh he got exactly you could just move to Luton Town it's I mean it's like my heart but wait more I think the capital of Pakistan is Islamabad right but the more secular than people in some places in the new year completely correct is Samba at least in Islamabad aside the thing with the thing is nominal it's a federally administered to a tree so it's not part of any province so it has the most liberal rules the world I came I don't think there's any place more liberal than a sound oh you have to visit to understand it there are too many foreigners there but it's ok I don't mind them I didn't write them I don't mind that do we I I auntie like them in what way is it more little like the so show us the thing is this city was built in 1973 by puto who will a socialist so he built this city as so the people who went to live there at the beginning were people very rich people and their children grew grew up in foreign countries and came back here so a lot of them are liberals a lot of them are almost actually I'm I'm sorry for that politically incorrect in Africa what's for example palace policy on abortion homosexuality drinking sex before marriage stuff like that how does it treat it so sex before marriage is a normal thing anywhere in the world the places it's not as well respected so what is right I would like to expand on his mind well sure it's not respected so if in a city like Karachi where people are more conservative their premarital relationships will not be accepted but in Islamabad or in my city they are accepted so that's the difference so and it's number and it's not someone is even four hundred times more liberal than even my CP so so if I learn it there tomorrow and I decided but it will get executed on the spot like if I landed I would I be okay it's like for example go to the Marriott yeah go to the merit there's Reena go to dude it's twenty percent of the people living there are foreigners so you can ban alcohol for those people so you can't ban it that's why it's a federally and missed administrator tree it's not a it sort of problems okay so anyways boys let's end the debate here we will definitely we'll definitely do this again someday and I think I think this is the first time in history that a Catholic we are making everyone want to make their closing statements this was a great debate I can't wait for your first article and we're really glad to have you on board Thank You Shannon your final words yes it's really was really enjoying connect sure it was no debate it was discussion we are all unless this in the end right exactly exactly agree with each other but we actually should repeat it again we are we indefinitely you will definitely do this again excellent well thank you very much for have I would like to thank you both for coming on I thought I had a great time and we actually have to do this again of course absolutely absolutely we'll call that now at the end of the round table debate