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welcome to the deli pod with me james delling paul and i know i always say i'm excited about this week's special guest but i really am because this week's special guest is very special to me his name is ray perrin dr ray perrin and ray is one of the people who has genuinely genuinely improved my life um a lot of you will know that i suffered from lyme disease for many years and ray ray and his his parent technique you've really helped sort me out ray i mean thank you thank you for i i if i could if i could illustrate or express the difference between when i first came to see you and now my life has been i i don't even think about lyme disease anymore it's it's not an issue in my life and i know lyme disease is not your speciality but but nevertheless it's a byproduct of what you do isn't it yeah absolutely well it's it it's wonderful to see you james uh and to hear you you know i always say to my patients when they improve i always say i wish i wish we had a video of you when you first came and you're here now but we don't do that in clinic obviously ethics dictates we don't video all our patients but it'll be great to be able to see before and afterwards and um you know i remember when you first came and you and um and your friends and your uh your the people who watch your blog will probably know what you were like uh when when you had the illness quite badly and looking at it now you look you look uh in a much better state of health you know bright-eyed and bushy-tailed as we call it yeah the the only the only thing i have to go on about how bad it was i did make a a health diary at one point i mean i'm very i'm very very poor at keeping diaries i i wish i could because the last year would have been brilliant but i did i did keep a health diary and there were so many symptoms because as you know the lyme disease is known as the great imitator and it imitates all number of of disease other diseases which is why it's so hard to diagnose and why people don't know they've got it for a long time and while they go to their their gp and their and and the the gp probably writes in his notes hypochondriac or worried well because he can't get to the bottom of these myriad complaints and i just one of the one of the dominant ones i think this is the characteristic problem of people with lyme disease is brain fog and i think you almost need to experience brain fog to be able to to to know what it is but it's like your brain is just like made of marshmallows or sludge and it everything slows down i don't get that anymore i have one of my patients calls it a foggy vein which is a combination of of foggy and something else [Laughter] and uh i think that's the best way of yeah best way i mean it really is i mean brain fog people will probably wonder what i'm an osteopath and a neuroscientist i'm not an immunologist and i'm not a specialist in infectious diseases so what am i treating a lyme disease and how do i do it good question i suppose that's that's what probably you're going to ask well yeah but you've asked me you've asked it for me ray and actually that is a very good you know how come yeah that's very true because to put you in context you don't your treatment doesn't just work for lyme disease it works for chronic fatigue syndrome or me and other stuff too like yes was it crohn's disease or any of those what are the other ones it works for well there's there's um one of the things that i've treated which i'm hesitant to advertise in any way because i'm not saying i don't want to get involved in it but i'm so involved with me and and it's such a difficult but if you catch i believe if you catch alzheimer's very early on we can probably help that as well but we need to do research before we can make those claims but i have treated a patient very early on with alzheimer's who kept to a reasonable level of health for about four years and he wasn't going in fact every month he came to me for treatment and he said is that the best month yet it was only when he fell and injured his head that his symptoms went right downhill but for four years we kept him going and and um i have treated a few others with la with um alzheimer's as well and had some some success in helping reduce some of the symptoms so basically the the parent technique is a treatment for the neurolymphatic system that's that's my baby and um i discovered this um 32 years ago now it's a long time ago that i discovered i could help uh chronic fatigue and me in those days he used to call it yuppie flu and one of the main symptoms of of hemi is the brain fog um and so it's you know so where does lyme disease fit into this basically i believe that there are many conditions and alzheimer's is one of them i think there's research done to show clockwise disease is also one of them and my work is on me and chronic fatigue syndrome and also fibromyalgia which is a subset of the same condition and these are all and lyme disease are all what i believe are neuro neurolymphatic disorders and this is a you wouldn't if you look on the website neurolymphatic disorders you wouldn't have much about it except my work and a few others because it's this is a new uh sort of section of disease that has now just been recognized as a as a real problem because what i said in years ago now that any chronic fatigue syndrome was caused by a problem in the drainage of the brain into the of toxins into the lymphatics and when i said that when it was quite a few years ago now it was completely against medical thinking completely um in those days when i first came up with this the idea of a connection between the lymph and the brain was was totally poo-pooed by the medical and scientific world because you had to understand what the lymphatic system was there for in the body according to the science and this is accepted science the lymphatics are mainly there to drain away large poisons large toxins and the small toxins can all go away through the blood the capillaries and there's very easy way i'd describe you and i remember when you first came i i went through all this with you but basically the capillaries have a wall that's like a mesh filter and that allows small molecules into the blood to go away so any small toxin small molecules will drain away through the blood the lymphatics their capillaries have got uh walls like a gills of the fish opening and closing and there that they allow larger molecules in and that's the purpose of the lymphatics really to drain away the larger molecules in the brain we have a barrier called the blood brain barrier and that stops any large molecules entering the brain and therefore we don't need an emphatic system and that's why in all the books and all the textbooks i learned when i was in college and uh beyond that you know all the medicine accepted the fact there was no lymphatic drainage of the brain because we don't need one because large molecules can't get into the brain in the first place and this is so wrong on so many levels but a few scientists like myself thought well wait a second what about hormones hormones are huge molecules and hormones are controlled by the brain by an organ in the vein called the hypothalamus that basically is the mother of the hormonal system and basically hormones enter the brain and hormones then the hypothalamus in the in the brain measures the hormones and then it sends messages back the example i always give is insulin insulin is produced in the pancreas in your tummy this goes into the vein and then your your hypothalamus measures this and sends messages back to the pancreas to produce more or less insulin insulin is a huge molecule massive the molecules that get through the blood-brain barrier because it's a barrier of cells with tight junctions the only molecules are very small like it's like water water is made up of 18 daltons dalton is a measurement of of a molecule named after uh john dalton from manchester i just have to plug the manchester flag yeah you're a man and anyway so 18 daltons very small molecule water can get through the blood-brain barrier but look at insulin is 5808 daltons it's walloping how on earth can it get through the blood-brain barrier surely it can't but it does because the hypothalamus measures that we know it's got receptors on the hypothalamus that measures the high the the hormone internet and all the other hormones as well so how does this work and we now know there are seven areas in the brain with gaps in the blood-brain barrier these seven areas are known as circumventricular regions and these uh these are areas in the brain where um where there's just there's no blood brain barrier to stop any large molecules getting in to allow the hormones and other large molecules in so toxins can get in and then we have a problem if toxins can get in from day one as soon as you're born before that even what happens how does the body drain away those large toxins because the the the blood can't cope with the large shocks it needs the lymphatics and that's why a few scientists like myself for years and years and years have been going on about standing on on the uh uh the rooftops and shouting yes there is a drainage system has to be and it's through some areas of the of the brain and down the spine and then one of the main areas is the bone above the nose called the ethmoid bone where you've got a plate with little perforations that allow olfactory nerves nerves that control smell to go through into the limb into the lymphatic system in the nose so the the drainage goes through these little path passages in the in these these spaces and these spaces are around the blood vessels that supply the nerves and it's not just in the olfactory pathway it's an optic pathway the auditory pathways and also trigeminals with it into the cheeks and down the spine and if these pathways don't work properly because there's damage from physical damage or could have been the person could be born like that it can run in families and this leads to a problem of drainage of toxins from the brain into the lymphatic system and we can see that post when you have a virus some people have a severe virus and end up with post-viral fatigue chronic fatigue i mean and this is what we're now seeing with covid 19 we're seeing this post coverage syndrome this this long covid where people are getting co covona virus 19 and that leads to this very ongoing um um fatigue state with brain fog as one of the main symptoms as well and if you think about the pathway to covid what do the people with curved first suffer usually anosmia loss of smell so it's through this pathway this drainage system that we now know exists and by the way this drainage system was only proven to exist in humans in 2017 it says only four years ago they finally did scans on humans showing that there's a lymphatic drainage system of the brain so now they're looking at what conditions can happen can could be caused by a dysfunctional disturbance of this drainage and i've been working for since 1989 on me and others have been looking at alzheimer's and other conditions and post covert syndrome and this long covert is another neurolymphatic disorder and you can see that they have loss of smell affecting this pathway and then it goes into the brain and affects the hypothalamus and in the hypothalamus there's a little nucleus that is that controls fever so when that gets affected by the toxins by these cytokines you know everybody now knows about the science i've been working for years cytokine storm you're here yes viral load and these cytokines are inflammatory toxins that go into the brain they don't have to be inflammatory some of them are non-inflammatory but they still damage the brain if there's too much of them and they stay lingering in the brain and this is what causes post-viral fatigue and this has been proven that the cytokines cause this for most patients who've had a virus and end up with me by work by in america in stamford university they found 17 cytokines stuck in the vein with me and there's alabama university as well done research as a professor jared younger is a new you're a scientist who does work with with emmy and this had been proven so we knew that this was going to happen but with um with that with coronavirus that they'll be the same thing and we're now seeing this epidemic of long covert around the world and the parent technique is helping us well some of our practitioners are having really good results with helping the long covered yes risk-wise and this is so sorry i just this gets back to what we started with talking about lyme disease lyme disease is caused by the bacteria belia and you get bermudia bulgodorphine which is the the the the classification um uh bergdorf i never know how to say burgdorferi i think it sounds about is a bacteria that that comes from being bitten by usually by a tick by a most commonly a deer tick and the the the the parasite that from the tick what happens is that the tick sucks some of the blood and and this bacteria goes into the blood of the patients but it can end up in the brain and this is the key when it ends when these bacteria end up in the brain it causes an inflammatory reaction and damage of the brain itself and that's known as neuroborvidiosis and it's when people don't have this drainage to drain away the the the babilia they end up with with what we call lyme disease which is this neuropathy is very severe because a lot of people can be bitten by a tick and not hand up with anything except they don't have to get the babilia and when people get the burrito they don't have to get the newer videos so they get the they get the rash they get the famous bullseye rash and then if they'll find them maybe need a bit of antibiotics toxic cycling by the doctor and within a few weeks they're fine no problem and sometimes no symptoms at all but the ones that end up is the ones that drainage doesn't work in the first place so when the toxins go into the brain they just build up and this drainage is a two-way two-way affair and it's affected by the lymphatics and if the lymphatics pumping the wrong way which happens when there's lots of poisons in the hypothalamus which is a major control of the nervous system of the autonomic nervous system and it's the autonomic nervous system specifically the sympathetic nerves that control the lymphatics so the lymph pumps the wrong way which is what i've discovered with me and with lymes it pumps all the toxins back into the brain pumping the the in this case with limes the bavilla not not it's not coming out it's going back in and more and more berea will go into the vein and stay in the brain and cause all the damage the cytokines cause with with with a covert this cause the same thing within the brain as people with long covert so this is what causes this brain fog because the hypothalamus and the frontal area are very close to this is where the prefrontal cortex of your brain is apart is the pathway from the nose into the hypothalamus and you go through this whole area which causes you your thoughts to go completely chaotic because it's where the center of thought in your brain is this area and that's why you get this brain fog that's that's a very good long answer um very long very long hopefully people have followed it but they should play it again if they haven't ray because i there's something i want to make clear this is not some kind of special james delingpole podcast for people only with lyme disease this what you're saying applies equally to people with so-called long covert which i think is a fancy name for the the standard post-viral syndrome which you get after flu after every similar thing like that it's not it's not some unique phenomenon that has arisen out of covid19 it's it's normal it's normal for those you know those unlucky to to get this this post viral fatigue it applies across the board in the same way it applies to people who've got me and chronic fatigue syndrome people who've got fibromyalgia it's all a function of a a malfunctioning limbic and lymphatic system isn't it yes yes and it's a it's a it's uh it's the functioning of the the neurolymphatic system it's not just the limbic i know you call it the limbic system because the limbic system system in the brain that is hypothalamus is part of the limbic system the emotional side and the thought processes side of the brain but the limbic system um is just part of it the toxins can go anywhere and this is what really puzzles most doctors because there's a 100 billion nerves in the brain and those toxins can go only and those toxins can go anywhere in the brain so causing any symptom and those the under the chemicals will affect the neurochemistry of the brain and neural chemicals pass between one nerve another through synapses and there's trillions of synapses in the brain so those trillions of synapses can be affected and everybody's different so there's not one patient i've seen and i never will see one patient uh exactly the same as another every patient i've seen over two and a half thousand patients with me in the last 31 years and not one patient is the same what they have different symptoms you mean and different symptoms yeah a collection it's a collection of symptoms but everyone's different one in my new book which comes out in march by the way we'll put the name of it um below this podcast but just tell us now what it's called well it's it's the parent technique uh second edition and uh the first edition was published in 2007 by hammersmith first hannah smith for publishing the second edition which i've worked on for the last five years now and this second edition has all the evidence to back up all the theories i said in my first book we've got massive of scientific evidence so it's a much larger book and it has details of of of most of uh the conditions and all the conditions i'm talking about today and much more and and it helps practitioners and patients get to grips with chronic fatigue syndrome any fibromyalgia and and similar conditions and it's called the the subtitle for it is the parent technique uh second edition but it's the subtitle is the diagnosis and treatment of chronic fatigue syndrome me and fibromyalgia via the lymphatic drainage of the brain and that's the key it says it does what it says on the tin yeah and it's not just a treatment it's a diagnosis as well because it's we i over the years i've discovered diagnostic signs that show up in patients with these neural lymphatic conditions you have i i've spot i mean on me they're obvious because part of the treatment is uh what you call effleurage which is daily sort of massaging isn't it right down the neck and and up the chest and so on you've got to do this to help get the get the lymphs draining properly and there were these things that you see under the skin like little white maggots now presumably are these peculiar to people who've got these got this condition then you have them no no these are mega lymphatics that you can fill and sometimes see under the skin yeah and what they they're varicose mega lymphatic so there's a name given to them it was originally discovered by professor john who's a professor of anatomy surgery at the at the um thomas's hospital in guys hospital in london and kim and discovered this but he as a surgeon in in and he wrote a big book on the lymphatics years ago in the 1970s and his work was never accepted fully because he could never prove these he talked about these varicose lymphatics but could never prove their existence beyond doubt and i took a photo which is in the book and i took a photo of varicose mega lymphatics now what they are basically lymph lymph vessels are little beaded vessels very very small and the ones next to the skin are so small you can never see them and their lymph fluid is colorless so it's even harder to see them however with me patients chronic fatigue patients and patients with limes and non-covered they have this back flow of lymph because the lymph controlled by sympathetic nerves goes wrong so there's a back flow it pushes against the normal length so these beads become bigger and bigger and bigger and eventually they come to a size in some patients not just you can feel them you can see them it's very rare to see them but you can fill them just beneath the surface you can't the reason why you can't see them so easily is because it's the lymph is colorless it's not like blood so they're like varicose veins but they're colorless so they'll have the same color as the skin tone and this is what we see always or we're not see but we feel always in the chest because this is the main drainage of the lymph in the body just underneath the collarbone and if there's a backflow the first port of core will be the chest so i said that the hormonal link between uh on the for the hypothalamus is a reason why women get emmy much more than men it's the reason why women get fibromyalgia more than men and i'm not sure about lyme disease though if it's more with women than men i'm not sure about that that we have to look at but the one thing definitely is that this this this hormonal link because women's hormones obviously are much more changeable than men that affects the hypothalamus and this is one of the main reasons why women affect uh hemi and lung and fibromyalgia more than men and it's the chest as well the back flow of the lymph goes into the breast tissue and there's much more lymphatics ingestion in women than men so this is one of the second reasons why you have a high number of women getting fibromyalgia and their me uh compared to men it was long covered it's very interesting long coverage is the same sorry sorry because covert affects men more severe covenant 19 is hitting men more than women which is interesting but the long covered is hitting women more than men and that's it doesn't seem to follow but so women are struggling to cope after they have been hit by the virus and that again is the same reason why women get me and fibromyalgia more because of this hormonal link and because of this backflow of lymph you've also women you've also mentioned to me before that you're more likely to suffer this problem if you're a firstborn and if you or if you had a athletic youth yeah this is it and this has comes back to the osteopathic principle of the cranial rhythm the cranial rhythm is something we feel osteopaths feel their head and a lot of people including members of the whole family i believe have have had cranial osteopathy over the years and cranial is actually a very interesting um technique to stimulate the the fluids of the brain and it's a technique that's been been used over 100 years and i wrote a seminal paper in 2007 on it that was published in the american journal of osteopathic medicine the the osteopathic association of america and this this paper showed that the drainage of the brain into lymphatics is this cranial rhythm and it's very easily explained a lot of a lot of doctors and even some osteopaths are very dubious when you talk about the cranial side of things cranial rhythm this rhythm we feel is around a seven eight to twelve beats a minute so where does it come from and with my research i've discovered the origins of it cerebral spinal fluid in the brain the fluid in the brain is produced by the blood and goes back to the blood so we know any neuroscientist any neurologist anybody who does your neurology looks at the brain will know that the the the amount of the rhythm within the vein of fluid is the same as a heart rate it's produced by the blood and goes back to the blood so it's 50 to 100 beats a minute within the brain but now we know there's this drainage pathway from the brain and from the spinal cord as well into the lymphatics and the lymph has a pump mechanism pumped by the sympathetic nerves that pump the main ducts of the lymph the thoracic duct another part at a rate of around four beats a minute this was discovered by this professor john clinton i mentioned earlier so basically you've got this pumping mechanism of four beats a minute and now we know some of the drainage of the brain goes into this lymph so two pumps two waves come together and physics dictates what happens next when you have two waves coming together they combine and cause an interference wave a third wave you don't need to be a physicist for this you just have to be into a beach and most of us have been to the beach and seen a big wave coming in and a small way of going out and when they crash together they produce a third wave and that third wave is the interference wave and this in the body the third wave is produced by the super spinal fluid draining into the lymph the two waves come together and produce this what we as osteopaths call the cranial rhythmic impulse or the cranial rhythm and with me patients and chronic fatigue syndrome patients and many other patients with this neurolymphatic problem including lyme disease they have a problem in the cranial rhythm and we need to stimulate that and the treatment the parent technique stimulates this cranial rhythm but also stimulates the lymph drainage as well to go in the right direction and that's how it works it just drains off the toxins so i can i can vouch personally for for this technique and you haven't you haven't paid me or anything like that i just it's nice to see you again actually because i haven't seen you for about what a year no no a year watching with clover since uh kept my travel to the bare minimum and staying in manchester at the moment i will come back down south eventually don't worry so um but i think people will be wondering well hang on a second like lyme disease is a major problem lots of people have got it um ditto chronic fatigue syndrome or me ditto fibromyalgia there are people suffering all over the country and the world actually some of them in awful conditions where some people i i hear about that confined to their bedrooms can own or some of them have to keep night hours they can only go and go out at night they can they can't bear daylight horrible horrible miserable lives if you've got the solution why isn't why isn't the world why doesn't the world know about you why why isn't it doesn't everywhere have a kind of well as soon as i as soon as i talk about this yeah and patience when patients know my work they all say the same thing and you probably said the same thing when you first when it clicked the penny dropped yeah this makes sense yes with with with my new in my new book i list over a hundred symptoms and explain why uh every all these symptoms occur because of the the the problem of the neural lymphatics and the problem of the sympathetic nerves not working properly because of the toxins building up in the brain this is it all explains every single symptom you get with lymes you get with chronic fatigue syndrome you get with me fibromyalgia all these are explained and once you understand that then it all makes total sense i'll give you an example a lot of patients one of the some not all but a lot of patients get severe pain in different parts of the body especially with lymes and fibromyalgia definitely so what how to explain that and it's very easy to explain when you know what's going on in this search of the neurolymphatics they discovered the main area when the drainage wasn't working in they did this experiment in mice they showed that the there were certain areas of the brain affected mostly and the two areas mostly affected whether they were called the basal ganglia and the thalamus the basal ganglia produces a chemical called gaba it's a very quite a lot of gaba in the basal ganglia and these are very close to the hypothalamus that i talked about earlier these are part of your limbic system the base of ganglia contains things like amygdala and other things that are very involved in the emotional side of your brain but also the gaba acts as a pain suppressant and when that gets poisoned by toxins building up there you end up with severe pain throughout the whole body every all pain reception is is heightened but then there's also the thalamus and that produces a chemical called neuropeptide p or substance p and that is actually produces more pain and when that gets irritated by toxins you get more pain from that so there's two areas the two main areas in the brain affecting pain stimulation and pain pain sensation really centralized pain are affected by the toxins not draining out and this was shown all the years in 2012 by by jeff iliff and his cohorts in rochester university so they discovered this then and this this proves what's happening with with uh with the brain of people with fibromyalgia why they get such severe pain and this is the same with with uh you get pain with enemy and pain with with lyme disease severe pain and this is this is why you get this so when you look at this this drainage system not working it explains everything that's going on that's uh that's a very good um uh a medical explanation of of of a yeah a common symptom of emmy and and and lyme and so on um you sound very plausible but i can say i just know that there are going to be some people are going to be saying toxins that sounds like really new age that sounds sounds like dangerously close to colonic and irrigation and the kind of new age stuff that i'm suspicious of because i believe in you know whatever um so when we're talking about toxins we're okay so you've given example cytokines which are what sort of protein lumps well cytokines are large protein molecules that that are in the body people might have heard of them anyway interleukins into ferns people have had cancer therapy how about chemotherapy they often use cytokines and what are they what are these cytokines they don't kill the virus cytokines what do they do these are basically signaling molecules they attach to a bacteria in this in with in boveda would be bacteria with viruses with with them with a covalent 19 would be a virus and the the cytokines attach so anything that's not self it would attach to now what it does then it signals to antibodies to come along and kill the the virus that kill the bacteria and get rid of it one way or the other but the thing is if there's loads of them in this cytokine storm they don't all attach to just the viruses then they can attach to healthy cells as well which it's a the reaction the response is almost identical to people have chemo when they have a uh injection of a major amount of these cytokines that will attach to the cancer cells but also attached to healthy cells which then causes the the side effects that people see when they have chemotherapy and it's very interesting that some people who have chemotherapy by the way end up with post chemo syndrome which is a form of ma from the cytokines but the cytokine storm that you see in in in in other conditions and these are part of the toxins but there's also environmental pollution heavy metals we talked about um you talk about childbirth and the firstborn getting it and i'm sorry we didn't actually answer that i became uh almost like a politician not answering the question asked and going but i'll come back to that because when if the first born has more trauma usually through because of the first to go through the birth canal so it would affect the the cranium and therefore we see a large number of first borns having symptoms from day one they might have tonsillitis they might have lots of runny noses or sinusitis from very early on in life all because of the pressure buildup of on the cranium from day one of birth it might have been a very long labor they might have had four sets delivering or fontus delivery where there there's going to be pressure on the head and the head as a newborn baby is very soft and very supple and it can be can easily be changed and from the trauma and it can affect these small small passages that allow the drainage to occur so right from day one you might have a reduction of drainage of the of the cranium of the head from a newborn baby which can then lead to problems later on in life and so but toxins can come in different forms the post viral we look at the cytokines but there's also chronic infections cause things like prostaglandins to form which are inflammatory uh can be inflammatory chemicals in the in the body that that cause problems but there's also toxins from the environment heavy metals there's a uh years ago there was a big big huha about vaccines now it's a bit better but the vaccines years ago contained thymethazole a lot of them as a preservative which was a heavy metal which was mercury those inject mercury based into a chemical as vaccines now they've taken away families oh thank god uh but there's still you know other uh other sources of of mercury in the body that um when dentists put amalgam fittings in that could be a toxin that that some people just don't get well to so there's there's a lot of um a lot of toxins in the environment i mean there's thousands upon thousands of chemicals let loose every second of every day i chemical firms around the world and many of them are toxic to the body so there's a the environment unfortunately isn't the best place but we also have stress and now we're under massive stress with this with this covert 19 and anybody says they're not stressed is is a in a different planet um but um this stress stress is the biggest cause of neural inflammation it's the biggest cause of neurotoxicity so so inflammation builds up because of the stress so cytokines can be triggered by stress alone so it's a combination of different factors stress physical stress physical injury it can cause inflammation so it's had something's had a trauma on their head or drawn in the spine that can cause it as well yeah so lots of different causes of toxicity yeah so it there are unlucky people out there and i'm one of them yeah um people it's a structural problem isn't it it's ultimately about is your system functioning or or well or not as it's meant to yes and if you're unlucky like me for whatever reason i'm a first born i took lots of exercise when i was was young so would which could have caused damage lots of lots of factors which make me more likely to be susceptible to this kind of thing um would it be right to infer from that that for example with with coronavirus or or flu if if if this this system is not working properly that you are more likely to suffer badly from the from the the viral problem or or is is it is it just the post-viral area where it's going to be more problematic and before then i mean are you are you more susceptible to cytokine storms and the damage they can do if you've got this problem or is it does that not come into it yes absolutely right james in in every way this is what we're trying to say you know lots of people get viruses you know the years ago they used to call um they used to think it was epstein-barr virus glandular fever that led to i mean i granted a fever it's a virus epstein-barr that targets the lymphatic system so it's it's like a lymphatic virus and therefore patients who got got that's why they call it glandular fever so it it affects the lymphatics but most people get over it i i had a glandular fever and the doctor told me to rest for a few weeks and had to stop for a few weeks and then eventually recovered and i was able to carry on as normal why didn't i get any post-viral fatigue because my lymphatic drainage works yeah thank god if it didn't work i would have ended up with it with the build-up of poisons in the brain toxin cytokines after the virus and i wouldn't have recovered and this is the thing so patients who get this this post viral and get the long cover and get limes unfortunately their drainage system doesn't work before and we see this in families a lot and i'm the only person in the world that says you can prevent these conditions in the first place because the physical signs are there before the symptoms start so we can feel that the problems there we can feel the drainage system not working in the head we can feel the lymphatic varicosities the back flow of lymph and there's also sensitive points and tender points and spinal problems we can feel all that so sometimes in families and you might know yourself in families sometimes there's other people with very similar symptoms and we can examine those people and catch it early enough to stop the major symptoms starting so we do this with families who have any and chronic fatigue and fibromyalgia all the time we see members of their families children and just check them out and sometimes we find physical problems and we we treat them there and sometimes we don't another person's fine the trouble is we can never prove that we can prevent this because the person doesn't get ill yeah yeah it's a it's a no-win situation so but the thing is we know that the physical signs change we can see them changing and we can see the the the general we can feel the cranial flow working better so this is for how how we work with the patient so yeah it is a susceptibility definitely um i've been doing the the the parent technique i mean you've got you've got practitioners all over the country i've got a wonderful woman who does who does me um but it ain't cheap because it's it's a hands-on process and it requires skills yeah yeah yeah does that mean that they're never gonna how are they gonna i mean it's very effective but how are they ever going to roll it out in in the in the nhs this this is the big big problem we've got and um it's good you mentioned nhs because the reason why you know my my professor jack edwards who was a professor i worked with right at the beginning of my research work and self at the university of salford he said to me when we when we published our first results showing that the treatment did help me patients it was completely thrown away by the scientific world because he said it wasn't done in the right way and even though they just hoped that i would probably be unsuccessful and we showed the 40 improvement in the patients compared to minus one of of the control group but it wasn't it wasn't as good as we wanted it to be and unfortunately because it wasn't a drug i wasn't accepted and this is what my professor said if you were drug you'd be licensed years ago and this is the thing it would be because we'll be able to make a lot of money for pharma and companies and the government would would be would love it um uh just like they're rolling out the vaccines and they're there they're spending a lot of money but you know the the drug companies are are going to be paying lots of revenue back into the government so the thing is that unfortunately it is a hands-on treatment and it is it can become quite expensive if you're having months and months and sometimes it varies to their cases years of treatment so how so how can it run out so it's very difficult but we are doing a research project starting this this year at the university of manchester and it's going to be in combination with salford royal nhs foundation trust which is a nhs hospital i'm working with the team there and we're rolling out this this this do-it-yourself treatment plan for postcovid for long covered and we hope this this is going to work on a a long term strategy that it will actually help reduce the symptoms of lung cover by just doing simple exercises and self-massage techniques the stuff i do every day yeah and if it shows that there's any improvement in the group who are doing this we're going to compare to the ones that aren't then we'll hopefully be able to roll it out throughout the country and it won't cost a penny and that's the beauty of it that's very hoping it will help some people but it's not the same as having treatment when you've got full-blown me and you need the treatment then and then it's difficult because we are we are private practitioners but there are some some uh some hopefully in the future um some hope of of getting the nhs interested eventually in what i do but it's going to it's taken 31 years 32 years now to get this far and hopefully it won't take another 32 years to get the whole of the nhs interested what about hospital people who live in other countries people like live in america or australia whatever can they get access to this stuff yeah well i have trained up practitioners around the world in south africa in america but not as many as we hope in germany and i do teach my techniques at grassroots level in the colleges uh in los a in osteopathy um in europe uh in poland in germany uh in greece so they learned my techniques as as part of their course of osteopathy so it's spreading the techniques um my my book will do a stage by stage techniques for osteopaths physios chiropractors physical therapists in the states and other places who have a grounding in cranial knowledge to be able to help those patients who can't uh when they can't come to my courses because but i am hopeful by i've got about 100 practitioners worldwide and 50 of those are in the uk who are trained licensed practitioners and some of them will be learning how to teach it in the future because i'm not going to be here forever and know that i need to pass on my knowledge to others so there'll be other practices who will be training other again and not a new generation of practitioners so hopefully we'll spread around the world eventually but it's going to take time and i think another another question people are going to be wondering is why you i mean how on earth did you chance upon this discovery are you a genius are you lucky are you what i think the luck of fate comes into it a lot i was very much making my career in sports medicine in 1989 i was i did the world student games in 91 but before that i was i was treating uh leading olympic athletes leading uh sportsmen in their fields especially the what was known as the rally banana team um i don't know i think you're you're you're keen cyclist no i'm not no no no i used to i do in london but not now okay i i prefer horses horses well i've treated a few equestrians over the years as well and um uh it's interesting because princess and she's a she's a chancellor of the university of college of osteopathy and i'm one of the vice patrons so we meet up every seven and she's very keen on osteopathy as an equestrian but going back to my work in in sports medicine i was working with uh the valley banana team which was the forum of the of sky cycling team in manchester and one of their members had their me and this was 1989 in the days he used to call it yuppie flew the derogatory term that young upward mobile people get this illness because they're just not fit enough get them out and make them play more football or whatever and they'll be fine and they used to drop like flies and eyes to pick up the remnants so one of the patients who had this me um was a was a former cyclist for the rally banana so he was recommended to come to me because he had back problems and when i examined his spine he was telling me that he is not been cycling for seven years because he's had me and this was 1989. so i said well i can't help yeah me but i can definitely get your spine and your posture working better i'm answered but i did and whilst i was working on his posture and doing cranial which i always do and all my patients and did work on the uh on i didn't realize how much we worked on the lymphatics because osteopathy you should work on the lymphatics a bit but i think that's how important lymphatics were it was in those days but i was working on his spine and his manual problems and his uh physical problems i should say and um and then his his symptoms improved his spine and improved but he also told me his eye symptoms for the first time in seven years were improving and within a few months he was completely symptom-free completely he said you've cured me and i said no i couldn't have he says you have and he came along with a whole lot of information about and you know it is amassed over the last seven over the seven years before he said read all this because you've got the answer nobody else has and you've found the answer now i started reading and i thought well what have i done and i knew that i'd worked on his own thoracic spine the top part of the spine and i knew from from learning anatomy and especially applied anatomy that the sympathetic nervous system was a major central part of the of the the main the upper part of the spine it funds out from the upper part of the spine to the rest of the body and so perhaps i've stimulated the sympathetics to work better and that's how it's work how i've got you better he said that's exactly it and i started noticing other patients who came in who had similar symptoms to him so probably had me without being diagnosed and they all had physical problems on the spine very similar and over the years that i discovered other physical signs that they also had and the lymphatics were so important part of this and then eventually i i discovered these these five physical signs and by the way that we we did a study within the nhs on these five physical signs that was published in 2017 in the british medical journal and i was very proud of the british medical journal not not an osteopathic journal because it was a doctor's own journal that published this paper and in their online journal and it showed showed 84 success in diagnosing just using these physical signs that i discovered compared to 44 percent um in the in of um when a nhs consultant examined the same patients using reflexes you know using patella hammers looking at your neurological signs and rheumatological signs of does the muscle move how do they look do they look ill and he was only able to disco to diagnose four percent of the patients correct me and these are without any any any uh conversation without any note taking we just examine the patient i wasn't allowed to get involved i had to have two practitioners who had trained up to make things harder i had one patient practitioner who had trained up just for the study so i had no prior experience with me at all to teach to show the nhs that we could teach people to do this so it could be taught in hospitals to diagnose using these physical sounds and they still showed an uh an 86 so 86 diagnostic compared to a 44 of their nhs consultant and he was amazed by it he just couldn't believe that he got 56 percent of the nme patients diagnosed as healthy he thought they just looked healthy because that's the trouble and that's the thing with lions as well you know some patients with lymes and honey and fibromyalgia look healthy but they're not if you examine them there's a lot of things wrong with them and you go through the history and it's post-exertion malaise that really hits them this post-exertion they can manage and as soon as they exert themselves they go downhill and this isn't except it isn't yeah and this isn't isn't seen when you see somebody in clinic you say how are you i'm fine and i have a whole conversation and they do you know i spend you know you know from coming to me the new consultation is about an hour and a half sometimes goes on to two hours or more and they think well if this person can survive a two-hour consultation they're fine but then afterwards they suffer and i always tell the patient we never start treatment straight away because um because because of the the the whole stress of the consultation that's enough for the patient to cope with but my basic golden rule and this is what i talk about in my new book a lot is any patients fibromyalgia patients and also limes as well to treat it you have to look at like a jigsaw puzzle you get the corners first when you make a jigsaw puzzle the best thing to do is get the corners first so what are the cornerstones for treatment and they're very simple rest so not to push yourself at rest relaxation which is different to rest because you can rest and be stressed as anything mentally but you want to rest and relax at the same time chillax as they call it and then also also if you can't if you're under stress some people have got a very stressful life and they're resting but they're still not relaxing and they can't relax but then they should meditate mindfulness thinking of the present not thinking of the past or the future concentrate on some good that's happening now and that's so important and then the most important thing and the thing that i started in 1989 which was completely against the trend at the time when it was yapping flew was pacing pacing i was literally the first person in the world to save his pace everybody else was saying push push push and i was saying no you have to pace half of what you feel capable of doing and this is pacing so 50 percent of all i tell patients you know yourself i told you this it's very difficult for people with a busy life well it's it's very difficult particularly because you remember i was i was recommended to you by the youngest female british airways pilot uh and it seems to me you mentioned this before that you get a disproportionate number of people who who would be called a types really physically active people which is why it's so cruel that it strikes you and it's a crud yeah any fibromyalgia limes are so cruel because it hits the most active then because they and this is because they've overloaded their body for so long so they're built up the the the drainage system doesn't work and they're pushing themselves to the very limits and then suddenly one and by the way i have a confession to make which you know is well you probably know because i bet you hear from other patients too i quite often ignored your rule and i'm sure it probably set back my treatment but now i mean for example i run about 25 miles a week um no no problem at all i don't get anything and you just reminded me because one forgets what it was like living with living with lyme disease that i used to go on a walk i used to be capable of going on sort of long walks you know with my family or with friends but what i got afterwards was this exhaustion like literally i mean felt being being bone tired it felt a degree of exhaustion that i think normal people don't ever experience and it's it's that so it's a complete draining and it's hard when you're trying to push and and the thing is and this is very interesting because you know willpower everybody knows willpower can get you through anything yeah people have been cured be known to cure themselves from cancer from willpower alone so what is going on how does that work well the power of the mind is again through this sympathetic nervous system through the sympathetic nervous system it stimulates it stimulates the immune system to work better so by willpower if you concentrate and push all your energies into into say i'm going to beat this then the sympathetic nervous system can kick-start your immune system and make you um get rid of all sorts of illnesses however it's the sympathetic nervous system that's going wrong with me because of this overloaded toxicity in this area of the vein that controls that's the main control of the sympathetic nervous system so your sympathetic nervous system is dysfunctional so the more you say i'm going to beat this the worse you get that's yes this is so true so true this is the big problem and this is the big problem with with this and that's not right that's why it's such it's not the worst illness in the world but it's the cruelest when you have a problem in the drainage system of your brain it hits usually very high achievers and a type personalities and it's the cruelest illness i know myself because i'm i'm like that and i always say i joined workaholics anonymous many years ago but the first meeting was canceled because everybody was too busy to attend so i'm i'm i'm just that's my nature i'm pushing myself to the very limit all the time and so i do appreciate that but we know it's the way forward and i said that this jigsaw puzzle the the cornerstones are this this and the the then the next thing you do with the jigsaw puzzle is the border and the border i've heard is the pairing technique itself looking at the structure getting the neurolymphatic system working and how do we do that and it goes back to a very simple it's again it's all based on physics when you push down the lymph down to the drainage points and it would be hard below the collarbone and then push up you create a concertina effect this drainage pushes into the pressure builds up there and then it goes into the bloodstream and that creates the the drainage and then it that creates another physical phenomenon called the siphon effect and we all know if you've ever had a fish tank when you're younger or have one now if you're cleaning a fish tank out you take a tube and you suck it up and it drains off all the toxins i know some people uh we always joke some people that's how they get their petrol but we don't um but uh so so we we this siphon effect how does it work well once you've created negative pressure by building up this top this this pressure here it pushes the fluid through when you have a change of pressure from one fluid part to another it creates a siphon effect which then continues on this drainage so the drainage continues down the brain from the brain down into the lymphatics through the nasal passages into the drainage in there and the same for up so we do up and down the back and the front creating this this um concertina effect and this siphon effect eventually draining off all the toxins and it takes time as you know it does once the drainage is working once then the your health is very it's it's taken me it's taken me years but i i wouldn't have it i mean i'm so happy with what i'm so much better than i was and i i'm really excited to make this this podcast with you ray just because um i know that we're gonna help there are so many people out there we're going to help and and yeah well the thing is yeah i mean it's true and it does to be frank with you the problem started maybe from birth so for many many years the drainage was looking properly that's why it took forever some patients only takes a few months as my first patient it only took a few months before he was symptom free but it's not not some people aren't all that lucky and that's the jigsaw puzzle so that's where the seat and the sky pieces and some patients are 100 piece jigsaws too bad some people are even less 10 piece jigsaws but some people are thousand pieces lots of them yeah and that's a lot of complexities that's why it takes time so if if if i have helped you um dear dear viewer listener um i'd really appreciate if well i mean regardless whether i help you or not you can support me on my patreon and my subscribe star you can also go to my website delingpoleworld.com and you can support me via paypal or even bitcoin if you like um uh it's greatly appreciated if you do get early access to my podcast um ray uh if people want to want to try out the the parent technique how do they how do they get hold of you and or what do they do right yeah okay right well they can uh look on the website www.theparenttechnique.com and they can um if people want to find out that there's a map on there with the the nearest licensed practitioner and i said if if people haven't aren't living near a licensed practitioner my new book which is published by hammersmith fest comes out march the 11th in the bookshops it's available on on amazon now at a massively discounted rate if you pre-order um so we'll get one sent to you james don't worry so but the the thing is that um i'll sign one for you uh but the the the the amazon uh prime is offering amazing discounts for for uh the the book if you pre-order so uh that should be um and that's if you pre-order before i think february the 19th but then it's march 11th it's going to be out in workshops um on on general sale so um if there if there's no practitioner on the pen website and if you want more information they can go on info at the parent technique dot com or info at the parentclinic.com we'll both get uh they will be able to send information but you look on the map you'll see the news practitioner to you so hopefully that will help that's good one more question before i go while i've got you yeah because it's because it's always great having having a having a doctor or an expert on something to ask questions to you people who've got lyme disease tend in my experience to get very obsessed about the the borrelia spirochete and various co-infections which clearly overload the system and they've become obsessed with this quest to destroy these these bacteria and viruses that that have invaded their body but it's not really those the viruses they're not really things you should be worrying about are they it's it's how is it that they they they aren't really the issue in the end not so much um can we just hold a second there's a phone the phone's going behind and nobody's answering it i don't know what's happening there just hold on one second again but sorry what anyway i can just say while you're waiting um and it has made i'm sorry about it i don't know what's happened there that's all right sorry about that okay right yeah sorry what was the question again well it's it's can you edit this or is this all just no it doesn't doesn't matter people quite kind of like the uh the the shambolic nature of it but i i've sort of i've sort of inferred from what you've told me um that unless you treat lyme disease very early you you i mean if you get get bitten by the tick and you get the telltale bullseye rash you can whack it with with nasty antibiotics which are going to screw up your your um your digestive system and and stuff but we'll probably zap the spirochete which is the which is the bacterium in in time but um there comes a point not what maybe two or three months into it where it ceases to become a sort of a bacterial infection and becomes a chronic immune disease problem is that right right yeah there's a the thing is i mean i'm not saying i'm not against antibiotics if necessary so it's the quickest way if somebody's being bitten by a tick and shows the bull's eye rash it's always good to get the back you know kill the bacteria if you can straight away but the thing is and natural antibiotics are also very useful but it's not just that i mean we do we do advise patients to take a whole gamut of excuse me natural antibiotics and and there's lots of nature's provided loads of really good natural one of them is alison max which is wonderful allison is from garlic and it's an incredibly good um and natural antibiotic it's been used for centuries and chinese medicine uses a massive amount of garlic so allison does help and there's lots of other things that are useful for bacterial infections however it's not getting rid of the the problem will not go away by just killing the the bug and um you know a lot of times people have antivirals or antibacterials for different infections and dead bacteria dead viruses still are toxic you know kind of build up of all sorts of rubbish debris that's still gonna affect the body and therefore we need to drain these toxins away and that's the job of the lymphatics and it's not working properly you're going to i know it's working the wrong way whatever drugs you put into your system you're not going to beat the problem so the key as i said that's where that's the middle part of the jigsaw puzzle that's the different supplements different uh different um medicines different diets all these things and different maybe talk therapies as well some people might need those as well but those are that's the the scene and the sky of the jigsaw puzzle but you've got to get the basis you've got to get cornerstones you've got to pace you've got the rest you've got to relax meditate you've got to get the structure working better and you've got to get the newer lymphatic system working better and that's the key to getting people better from this disorder rather than just putting a putting elastoplast on it or just giving you a drug to to help reduce the symptoms but not actually cure it well ray it's been great to have you on and it's made a nice change from my kind of politics um because there's so many things that have been bothering me in the world that i'd normally deal with in this podcast this has been a sort of like a holiday from all that so thanks very much and i really hope you can help lots of people because uh you've helped me and thank you james it's yeah well thank you so much for this i've really enjoyed it and it's great seeing you and hopefully we'll meet up in person soon without masks on hopefully yes definitely in the future well in my case definitely i don't know i won't wear the buggers but no well you should because you know we're not going to go there we're totally not going to go there that's it anyway ray thank you so much great okay god bless okay bye-bye bye-bye