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[Music] good evening and welcome to buy line we have a really great show tonight I'm so excited to have these two guests because they have been working on helping us save money on our electric bills and helping us reduce our carbon footprint and giving and breathing life into policy around one of the most important things that the council's been working on over the last year in the policy arena and that is energy and climate change and so Darci Dumont a town councilor is here and Dwayne Breger from the UMass Energy extension services here he was also a big shot in Boston for a while we will not hold out him against him did a great job down there but he came home so he could work through the university to help communities all across the state learn how to do what they could do around energy to help address climate change but let's dive right in with you Darcy so you were an activist on this issue before you were a town councilor you're on the climate action committee helped me with the name of the committee energy and climate action community of the town council and recently the town council took an important vote and step forward tell us about it all right the inner municipal task force on Community Choice aggregation has been working for two years now to make it recommendation to the towns and the three towns that are working together to put forward community tri segregation our Northampton Amherst and Pelham and Northampton and Pelham have already authorized the towns to go forward with a plan of aggregation and Amherst was the remaining town that needed to authorize the basically the executive to go forward was approving a plan of community choice aggregation so last Monday I'm probably not supposed to say a date show right very reason the task force brought forward a recommendation and a suggested motion to to authorize the program and Town Council unanimously voted for it turned that forward with with the with it was a motion to authorize the town manager to to execute joint powers agreement and also to to approve a plan that's going to go to the Department of Public Utilities so that's terrific so all of the background work is now done the Town Council has voted now the staff gets to go to work on putting the plan together and with the other two communities that plan has to be that all three communities then you're going to go to the Department of Public Utilities with your aggregation plan so for those who don't know yet Dwayne what an aggregation plan and program is could you explain it you've been helping communities all over the state do it you're an amorous resident and you helped your own town just go through this so yep so um Community Choice aggregation is is not a new thing in Massachusetts and it really dates back to the electric restructuring Act of 1997 I think it is and that's chair of the Ways and Means Committee exactly and within that act there is a provision for that allows for municipalities to aggregate it's called municipal aggregation in the act and it basically allows municipalities to work on behalf of their constituents to move forward in four going out competitively for electric retail supply for their customers in their town who who cared to use it who cared to opt for that program and allows that allows the town to work on behalf of their constituents to really get a competitive advantage to get a good energy price from the retail electric markets that were established under the region electric restructuring act and over the course of time there's been a relatively small number of communities and municipalities that have joined in and opted to go forward with municipal yeah a gregarious in the last probably seven to ten years there's been a great deal of interest across the Commonwealth on municipalities to aggregate their loads and go for a municipal aggregation to the extent that there are well over a hundred municipalities within Massachusetts that have active approved aggregations at this point fantastic and many more who are in process that's correct and the process is that the town's put together a plan that needs to meet the rules of the of the of the of the act and those plans are submitted to the are actually first reviewed by the Department of Energy Resources and and then are submitted for approval to the Department of Public Utilities fantastic and Darcy you started working on this well before you got elected to Town Council what benefits did you see and why did you put so much energy into it no pun intended and before you became a counselor and continued as a councillor what's the what are the benefits to them yeah I all have to say I'm so excited about this getting enacted because this was something that I worked on before I was a town councillor it was a an issue that I actually brought to every door as I was campaigning for Town Council and so I'm thrilled this is one of my goals that has at least gotten through the first step of actualization but I was inspired because I had heard of other towns that were using it to green up their energy but in addition to that I had heard about what is going on in California which is a more advanced version of Community Choice aggregation it isn't just the basic purchasing of energy it includes two other elements which are providing additional energy efficiency services and also a development of local distributed energy resources and in other words a development of local solar usually it would be local solar and the ability of communities to to source own and control their own energy and so there are a lot of reasons why that is advantageous it allows you to add to the sources the sort the renewable energy supply above and beyond what's required under the renewable portfolio standard it allows communities to be more resilient because it allows them to do more creative solutions with their electricity like creating micro grids using electric vehicles for charging using energy storage and other such things and so it it allows you it would allow a community to sort of accelerate climate action in a way that already not only reduces greenhouse gas emissions but it also brings in revenue for the town so it's like a win-win terrific so Duane you did you were you trying to job would you say that yeah what Darcy's talking about is really important because that's really what differentiates the meanness inter-municipal efforts that were making with with Northampton and Pelham and immersed in that as I was describing before municipality a Gregorian place at this point across the Commonwealth but it's mostly one town at a time and it's usually one and it's with the exception of the Cape the Cape Cod it's it I think it's it has always been one town at a time in this case we recognize that Amherst itself nor Pelham North Northampton probably do not have the economy of scale individually to do a more innovative community choice aggregation that we're interested in so we are all forging together with common common goals and importantly we've been very clear even in the order or by law or whatever that was passed by the Town Council the provision provision was passed by the Town Council that the primary objective of our community choice aggregation is to save green is to reduce our greenhouse gas emissions and that's likewise across the three three municipalities and that will drive certain choices that will be made like how much traditionally generated power versus green power what will be purchased as part of the portfolio correct and and there are many because yeah you could just say we want to do this to save money right and you that would lead you to a certain set of decisions if you start with the idea that this is part of our strategy to reduce our carbon footprint then you're going to be able to make you will make other choices correct and and to date I would say probably the large number of Mina's biography about trying to save a little bit of money yeah there are more and more that are very interested in reducing or increasing the use of renewable energy but for the most part they've gone about that by buying green power from the grid and not necessarily locally the big catch here is is that we are trying to use this not only to reduce our carbon by buying more clean energy above and beyond the RPS requirements but also to do that in a way that really brings forward this concept of energy democracy where we really localize the decisions and actions that the the town's take with regard to making wise decisions and use this program as Darcy was saying to really move forward and support and help finance and develop local renewable energy resources particularly solar for our area that can contribute to our the supply that we are demanding through this we know some Allegra Gatien so I know this is very early in the process to be making any pronouncements about what the package will look like but given what we were just talking about saving money versus improving the environment one possibility is that you can choose the a package or the B package the a package could be the lowest cost available based on meeting the state's standards of the mix between traditional and green power and the B package could be exclusively green power and there may be a price differential between the two but if you're making the if you make the decision to go with the second package it's because you've decided you are willing to spend the extra money to do that is that a fair yeah but I think we want to be cautious as well that we're not expecting given the availability of technologies and incentives across the Commonwealth we are not expecting this program to be costly to electric ratepayers of Amherst Northampton and Pelham Pelham in fact we're very cautious to make sure that that does not happen we're trying to use this community choice aggregation and using somewhat some different business models than other municipalities have to try to keep as much of that savings locally so that can be expended particularly to provide assistance and energy efficiency measures and in low moderate income citizens around and residences and rent the rent or community around the Commonwealth as well so you know generally these municipal aggregations you know probably can save consumers on the order of I think a dollar or two a month in terms of savings from these from gaining into a municipal a gregarious to keep that dollar at two a month by every everybody which across the three towns accumulates to about a hundred eighty thousand dollars a year for the consumers for the for this municipal aggregation that then has the ability to use that money on for the benefit of the of the ratepayers by investing that in energy efficiency measures in demand-side management battery storage solar to try to really take more local control of our load reduce our load reduce our peak loads in particular and make make and that's where additional savings can come to the consumers as we are instituting these new practices which you might not otherwise have access to through the traditional utility company products Wayne is explaining here is what we define as CC a 3.0 and what you had said a little earlier about the different options if that's what a municipality is offering we define that as CC 8 2.0 and offering different packages with different credits but this the the version that we're hoping for over the long term is this much more complex program that we define as 3.0 that that will that will provide this local resilience keep keep the money in the local economy keep the jobs in the local economy and so it not only have the best the benefits of for ratepayers but it has benefits across the board for local resilience okay so this is getting a little bit in the weeds but it's a potentially important point so there are about 30 communities in Massachusetts that currently have traditional municipal electric companies some of our electric electric and gas electric gas and telephone but their local municipal zand they've been around for a long time so municipal aggregations that we're talking about now are new it's a new invention it's maybe 20 years old or so in Massachusetts because 1987 was when we wrote the law and by the way this is where I will tell you that I actually put that provision in the plan it was my top priority as Senate Ways and Means chair to create municipal agriculture okay was not my idea but something brought it to me and I said makes sense so I'm excited to hear how many communities are doing it but now let's help me understand this the hundred or so communities are they now considered municipal electric companies not at all very important distinction that's what I wanted you to clarify and I don't I don't suspect Amherst Northampton or Pelham are looking to become municipal utilities municipal utilities are micro utilities if you will that have control and responsibilities for their poles and wires essentially and the electric distribution around their city city or town in this case for the CCA the Community Choice aggregation the utility company eversource or National Grid would still provide the distribution system and the billing to to what to residences okay so now let's take this the next step traditional municipal electric companies do not have to collect the two fees that are associated with Greene conservation and green energy and roughly on our for most of us on our electric bills there are these two little fees every month we pay a tiny bit into the fund 600 many years reach is raised from each of the funds and one fund is used to help with energy audits and implementing energy conservation in our homes our businesses our communities our schools and the other is to help stimulate and bring to market green technologies that will helped reduce our carbon footprint and and address climate change will our bills in municipal aggregation continue to have those two little fees and do those two little fees go into the state pool or are they retained in the pool of these three communities to use as we choose yep okay good okay Twain and yep okay so the enlighten us okay in the weeds it exactly so I think the way that were in envisioning and in the way that the task force is envisioning and envisioning it is that that ratepayers would continue to pay those small fees that go to all the massive programs as you mentioned in the Massachusetts Clean Energy Center to support their programs that that small fee will continue to be on the bill and as we plan it at this point those would continue to serve to enable those programs statewide programs so they will go to the state into those programs exactly now the exception is that in the municipal aggregation bill that you wrote or put together does allow for what's called a Part B of that provision which does allow for a municipal aggregation to also take over if you will the energy efficiency programs away from mass the math the statewide mass save program and to deliver math deliver comparable and approved energy efficiency programs on their own if they are approved to do that and it's a much higher lift to be able to demonstrate that the town the municipal aggregation is enabled to do that then only in that case with the DP you approve you and enable you to keep that that extra charge on the bill for for energy efficiency for the community so in message in Massachusetts it's only the Cape cop cape light compact that has gone for that part and and they did that very quite of quite a quite a while ago so that's an option that's on the table our local aggregation has not yet made that decisions probably I think that there's an agreement that we would need to scale up a fair amount in order to have the capacity to do that but if we did do it we would have massive extra revenue but so I think that the task force is for seeing that other towns will join in and so it's just a question of overtime how many other towns will join join this aggregation yes and are you going to actively pursue that as a three town entity after you get up and running and everything is stable and working well do you the the Pioneer Valley Planning Commission is part of our task force yeah and though so they're sort of keeping an eye on that as well we're really cautious to submit our plan is the three towns first yeah that's to get this going in the in the vision that we have and then but then be open and work out a methodology to add more towns do you have venture into the DB dpu or are you going to put in your plan that over time you will welcome others to apply to be part of your aggregation it's a good question I think I think okay for the other day well if another town was to join they would have to put in their own plan to DP you okay and and in some way say that we're gonna aggravate but we're gonna join this week so that's very healthy so there's two very important questions right there the first one is are you gonna go Plan B yep and the second is will you try to take control I'm sorry that that is what how you take control of your conservation and your are you allowed to take your conservation money and leave the research money with the state yeah in fact I think Part B is only about the mass save energy efficiency okay that's what makes sense because you're not going to be able to do research at a proper scale locally okay well that's a very very I will say just to add to that our strategy is as much as Darcy said let's table the Part B until we get going and afterwards but our strategy from the get-go is - let's use our program just as the way it is to really stimulate our right to access mass safe statewide mass save programs much more robustly than we are currently in Massachusetts and our other communities successfully doing that because mass save is a very complicated animal as I can see you yep yes and and as a legislator we I was trying to get a review and revised after 30 years a program okay should be reviewed and revised and we couldn't get it through because the utilities control effectively control mass save although on paper it may not appear so but they effectively control mass save and there is inherent conflicts of interest there because conservation means you're going to be delivering less power right and that I think that was a mistake that the legislature made I wasn't part I was in the legislature but I was I was I was young and naive at the time it was a very rough so long ago is in my very early years and so I did not have a big role in it at that time but subsequently I came to understand that that was a structural mistake it really needed to be in an independent agency with independent capacity so it's such an interesting thing so are a lot of communities making that move are they keeping their money or doing Plan B's or mojo only they just are they afraid or they just thought that was biting off too much because you've been advising yeah so what's been the dynamic around the state sure well there's evidence that and clear that it's a much heavier lift in terms of developing your plan the plan that you have to submit for to get approved for Part B which is a separate approval is a much heavier lift that and for good reason that the town needs to demonstrate how they would be delivering energy efficiency that's on par with mass safe and and so we really don't feel like we have the ability potentially to do that at the get-go and we don't want to compromise or jeopardize our ability to get approved for for plan a party by by putting in something for Plan B so how often do you have to go back to the DP you after they first approve your plan a ever okay and then you are free to go back later and propose a plan B correct and so any municipality that hasn't done it yet could potentially do it exactly and there's been a few that have done that well there's been a few that have been submitted for Part B but have not have been highly scrutinized and I think either rejected or wrong word Laurance so Plan B's it has a separate entity are tough yeah and very few communities have tried to do an A and B at the same time correct only the case like and that was at the very early days of the universe viagra Gatien I would say that what we're trying to do as you mentioned good observation mass safe can be complicated and so one of the things that we are looking to do as a community choice aggregation just with Part A is to try to simplify that and have for some programmatic activities within our three communities to bring mass save and cut out some of the complications so that there is more adoption by by people with in with our communities you know that if there were ways of being able to do that it would be really terrific okay in the final minute how long it's 47 seconds when does it go to the D for you how long do they take and when do we think we're going to be able to start this oh well we think I think that we will be able to submit to the DP you within three or four months ideally we don't know how long we'll be at the DP you but once we get approval we think that that we then will be able to launch probably best-case scenario within six months after that approach so sometime in 2021 we might be able to buy electricity from our own community absolutely you heard it here thank you so much for joining us what an inspiring conversation I really enjoyed having you guys here and thank you for doing this work this is so great thank you Sam really thanks and we'll see you again another time and you too [Laughter] [Music]