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good afternoon and welcome to this webinar on gender parity and change management my name is Jim Dyson and i'm here at hosted posting webinar with Mark Thompson the program director who are introduced you to shortly the webinar will be run by Rebecca Hill a deputy director sorry at global markets for Ernst & Young and Brian Eve J an advisor at Ostia and they're both alumni from the program and are both very excited to talk to you around gender parity and change management and how they are interrelated but before we start I just wanted to run through a few housekeeping points the webinar will last until 3pm this afternoon there will be an opportunity for you to ask questions and if you'd like to do so please feel free to type your questions into the question box at the bottom of your right hand panel how many questions around using that just let me know on the chat and I can help you and I'll be folding those questions at around about 10 23 to give us ample opportunity to ask questions and so feel free to do that as as you wish if we don't get a chance to answer all the questions I will be able to come back to you an email following this webinar so I without further ado I will pass you over to mark thompson to introduce themselves and then we'll introduce the panelists and then start the discussion thank you Mark good afternoon everyone so I'm Mark Thompson I am the academic director of the program from the Oxford side as you know it's a joint partnership between of Oxford and I she say and I've been in this role for 10 years now and I must admit it's great pleasure to be able to introduce Rebecca and Brian as alumni of the program because one of the things that we really love about this program is what people go on to do and the types of issues they get involved with and just this weekend we heard our alumni meeting of the change leaders in Paris where they were talking about systems change in systems theory one of them and complexity were the big themes of in the program but another one which is really important which is as you will hear seems to be an intractable issue is really around gender and gender progression of changing organizations so we're really pleased to have Rebecca come who was actually with us in cohort for in the program that's nearly ten years ago to talk about that theme I'll say more about the program later in this webinar but great have these guys here looking forward to thank you Mark that's great i'm just going to introduce without those could be our first panelist on the program on this webinar today good afternoon Rebecca how are you hello I'm very well thank you and so without further ado Rebecca you're too far away i'll move to the first slide for you Thank You Gemma and thank you Mark and hello everyone I'm really delighted to be invited to join the webinar today um it's been a really interesting journey actually of preparing for it and has brought back some really interesting points for me quince of learning from ccc and also been fantastic to collaborate with with brian and with Gemma in the preparation so thank you for that and really today I want to just talk very briefly out of the work that I'm doing with you I around accelerating generality in the workplace um and then maybe spend a bit of time talking about how my learning from TC really impacted the work that I'm doing because I firmly believe it it has um so the question I would ask all of you to think about as well as we go through this webinar is as change leaders in your own right is you know what is it that you could be doing in the work that you do to really address the issue of gender parity in the workplace so I'm going to go for it quite some pace hopefully this is some familiar too familiar territory for many of you but also some helpful points arm to really get to grips so I'm hoping Gemma the same qualities all right um and there's no there's no feedback at this point absolutely brilliant ok so I think many of us been wrestling with this issue thought for a long period of time as Moloch alluded to I'm not sure much of the work that has been done is really around the fairness issue it's the right thing to do to have no equal gender representation across all levels of organization and business but increasingly you know there is a lot of research it's coming out that articulates just what the impact is of having gender parity within the workplace and really there for articulating quite succinctly why this needs to be addressed so um you know as the slide says you we are in a period of profound change with you know aging populations climate change here particularly the rapid advancement of Technology and all those different megatrends we want to use management speak I'm are really impacting the way we work and the work places within which we work and I think that means that many of our leadership teams are ill-equipped at the moment to lead the businesses that they're leading and and arguably if you look at you know the statistics many of those leadership teams are not very diverse which is almost you know exacerbating if you like the challenge and so if they're just one statistic that I can throw out there at the moment is you know of the CEOs on the footsie 100 that we have at the moment you know there are between bastards between five and six Assemblyman CEO so that there is um there is a real issue here around getting more women through to into into the leadership levels of our organizations with a number of women increasingly well universities now are I think over fifty percent graduates now are women and so they were fifty percent of people joining the workforce of that level are women and in many organizations like my own you know that at den does drop off very very rapidly as you can see from the pyramid arm that jumps put up on the screen and you the question we have to ask ourselves really is you know what was happening to these women that's one of the questions why why if we know that having more women in business delivers better results where are they going I think clearly that they're not disappearing most of them are remaining economically active but where we are failing to retain them in our businesses through to the senior levels of leadership and many of those individuals are getting i would say quite stuck as well in those middle sort of middle positions and we're just not putting them through so that's really what we're trying to articulate here on this life and brian i don't know if you have any observations on that yourself as to you know what might be going on here thanks thanks Rebecca the one statistic to point out specifically in the United States is that more than fifty percent of undergraduates are women and it's been that way for about 35 years more than fifty percent of masters graduates PhD graduates are also women but there there is definitely a systems issue and the building on the theme of the change leaders conference this weekend in Paris it's really an example of coming up against a good deal of complexity that's pretty entrenched and for all of the discussion that you've had around women leaning in as individuals as a collective gender there's really a point where that's just not sufficient but it's sort of distracted from the argument because you can only mean so fondue your sister that doesn't recognize it doesn't have a place for you that historically as looks to separate you from the system people to be a part of it so I think there's a this is so difficult because it is so much the intersection of many business and social issues and the key for us certainly I ask tia is to talk about this most clearly from a a future based business imperative meaning businesses in the future simply you'll understand this in ways that businesses in the past have not and how we get senior leaders to recognize this and actually start to do something about it without feeling they have to unravel the entire enterprise we build it in some other way is a big challenge and that's why a lot of eli's perspective and tools and frameworks help leaders understand some of these issues so it's not nearly as daunting as it would be without this kind of expertise that's my little Club pretty why thank you Brian now I appreciate that we're going to talk about a little bit later about a couple of those you know the things that can be done to accelerate in talent um so you know if we if we know and actually the research by interesting because use some some of some of the things that people say is well women aren't as ambitious but you know day is full of research out there particularly i'm from michelle ryan x university is one example around women and ambition and i think women are as ambitious as men but maybe the way they display it is different and so so there's some very um key key issues here playing out I'm Thank You Jennifer Nanette sly this is this is a slide that I use an awful lot because well i think when missing a little bit of text on the right hand side possibly but the first point really is around improved financial performance so yeah I was always joke actually there is so much new research coming out almost on a daily basis that you can literally take a with it but um yeah a lot of the research that we've had most recently has been around how having a more gender diversity does improve the financial performance organizations a lot of that has been around having more diversity in boardroom and by diversity I think you know we here we are specifically talking about gender & but you know there are many different forms of diversity but but the research is specifically around gender and I think it's also important to highlight that it's not just about having one or two women it is about critical mass so where you hit Mackenzie talk about you know thirty percent where we'd be the minority turns into sort of a group that has a voice and so where you where you have that critical mass is where you will start seeing some sent me some improvement on financial performance so if we look at the most recent study that was done by the Peterson Institute yes he was involved with that one but is about and that piece is very interesting because it's actually about gender representation in the c-suite and not just within the ordering and what happens on financial performance of organizations and I could I could cite quite a few statistics here from other pieces of research I the credit suisse Institute catalyst and Mackenzie again and they're quite well-documented around what what that impact is the second point that I would just highlight is around innovation and I know behind you're going to talk a little bit the disruption he's a new innovation piece of it later on but you know that there is also a lot of research now that highlights really are the impact of having greater diversity gender diversity on innovation or actually the lack of that gender diversity there was a very interesting piece of kit that Apple developed recently that was going to take care of everyone's health care needs but unfortunately those were he needs primarily of men it turned out because there was no tracking of things like the medicals in the kit that they developed and so so you know so it is it is absolutely important at all crucial that here from an innovation perspective that we have gender diversity as well that the third indicator that I've listed there is some crucial from a from an organizational perspective and its own mirroring your customers so if you think about the fact that most discretionary spending decisions on me by women so eighty percent especially spending our decisions are made by women you know you better make sure that you're you know you your organization across the board is mirroring your customer another interesting step I like to say is you know mothercare which is company that we all know quite well up until a few years ago didn't have a single women on their board which seems extraordinary when you think at the organization and their customers so that's just another example that over to give as to why I'm having greater diversity it's crucial um the the fourth one here is around effective risk management and again there's a lot of research here around this issue and I think it's it hands-on fact that women as you know we're talking about stereotypes that surgically have a different risk profile to two men and so you there is benefit in having those different approaches represented in decision-making process and in business leadership and an interesting start here from one piece of research is just having one female director on the board can cut those for bankruptcy by twenty percent so and that's a piece of research done by learning business school so the the next are our indicator I just wanted to highlight was around governance and that's the final one and that's really around just a more rigorous decision-making process and you know this is this is fairly well articulated and studied now the the case of greater diversity in the workplace and it goes beyond the case but you know it's the right thing to do the social justice case and so therefore I think you from from each change practitioners perspective this is a very interesting framework to have and when you're working with with businesses on change and so the question then is so what is what is he wises response to so what are we doing at this if we you know if we believe so firmly that and during a diversity is absolutely crucial to the success of business what is what is our response to that and um we just every year ago we launched what we call a platform women past board at Davos at the World Economic Forum which was highlighting really the fact that it's going to take another hundred seventy years to teeth at gender parity and and particularly why we why we felt this was just unacceptable in the work context and and as a result of that and I should say that that is that that is a piece of research that is repeated on a regular basis initially when we had a legit was 80 years it's actually gone back there 27 years evening in the last year alone and so so that is that that is a valid platform that we have gone out to the t'market volunteer we need to do something like this working armed with what we call the power 3 our governments entrepreneurship and big business to address this because no no one's in war party has the the answer to to this issue it is out it is kind of in a way you know one of the ultimate I changed challenges as Mark alluded to and so we need to be collaborating this together across the board so I just want to highlight just a couple of points that we touched on in the report and you can access under mr. plug-in to have either if you are interested you can access this report online and Jamison follow up after the webcast little bit more detail and the the top-line sort of findings if you if you like highlighted here but you um I think really that the biggest challenge we got me identified worth lack unconscious bias is really at the root of the challenge around getting more women into and through that pyramid that we talked about earlier on in the core um and as a result of that we didn't identify three major accelerators to address you know potentially the issue of getting more women into the business and up through the business and Jenna may be okay okay so can I just ask just one short gratification you said that men see unconscious bias as a BBQ women also see that yes they do I think um yeah it's an interesting because we did we did separate you know so we asked men and women the questions and but I think you from the male perspective they see you know they see that as an issue as as doin okay yeah yeah so maybe we could just talk quickly about the three major accelerators that we identified and again um Brian it would be great to get your thoughts on these I illuminating the path to leadership this is out um making it visible two women what is possible yeah because a lot of the work that we've done all the research we've done is to ask women you know what what you peace around what is their ambition level and yes they are ambitious but a lot of the women cannot see how they can make it where they can't see how they get to that level often because there are no other women in those roles and so there is it you know there's a little coat you know you cannot you cannot be what you cannot see and I think that's really a lot of what's at play here is around articulating to women more clearly what is the path to leadership and certainly aey that is something that we do for a number of different channels are including you know the number of focus Taylor programs that we have to support women where they have the opportunity to network with each other and also network with other women leaders to see how what their rubles and how they got there and then the second piece is really is the speeding up of the company culture change pro pro with progressive corporate policy so for us that means looking at how we manage our talent pipelines and you know how we make sure know that the unconscious bias is addressed through those processes and where where necessary looking at things like targets and also where we feel we move to be money in certain training so we have inclusive leadership training because diversity on its own doesn't necessarily give you you know the desired effects you have to then also be able to manage that diverse workforce and then the third piece is really about making sure that you build those supportive environments and here we at your wife doesn't offer lot of work around what we call flexible so making it possible for people individuals women and men to you know to be able to work as flexibly as possible in order to do the work they need to do the role that they need to do so um so those those are just some examples of what we have been doing around the three major accelerators and Ryan I don't know if there's anything you do not add to those I think in terms of specific solutions I think this is a great framework i would i would certainly echo a lot of the a lot of the comments and a lot of research around unconscious bias i think that as change leaders the thing we have to be able to do is anticipate the point at which the unconscious bias becomes conscious in the sense that there's so much discussion about it now people who are in charge and have powell within the kind of organizations for try to influence will no longer be able to say gee this is unconscious i'm not aware of it and what that points24 primarily the men who are running these organizations is is is the need to have some way forward to figure out how to how to go about addressing this end as we know with change it's hard to make change because you have to admit that well at this point you haven't done something different and i think there is a real thought leadership opportunity to help the gender discussion to to move forward by helping men recognize that the things we're talking about here these kinds of solutions are simply a better way of doing business there a better way of working and living if you're trying to struggle that balance it's simply the right thing to do so and as CCC looks at in a number of dimensions there are great opportunities to challenge the status quo in this case a quick except because they're very personal issues they're very uncomfortable issues it's just the kind of complexity that that you should do you should be leading and it's pretty hard it has all of this discussion acknowledges maybe I could add something here as well on CCC we do some stuff on social networks and looking at those from different perspectives and gender is one of those issues but we also work with people in the classroom trying to their social networks face this is very relevant if you think about some of the issues we talked about in terms of progression and open to more senior levels what a lot of the research shows is that women tend to cut it as this Connor what we call them awfully where they seek people who are similar to them so they they tend to bind together quite closely with other women but actually a lot of the power and the organization and decisions over career progressions actually decided by man be it with them conscious buyers for an order there's one famous scientist I had dinner with an Oxford I have to bring in the Oxford story obviously to make this relevant and she was asked about her career and she you know she got to quite senior position but it took quite a lot a long time and after much reflection she said well I really didn't understand how it took so long but on reflection I think it was just sergeant Lee and the heavy day and but then she went on to talk about other things in terms of access to more senior man who you can be visible where you can be visible yeah actually again so it's actually how do you how do you make those networks actually more diverse so this is this is a kind of interesting point of discussion when you talk about you have female only training programs which can be very good for you know bonding amongst women and also if you can bring in some women leaders that that's important if you think about the kind of maybe more hydrogen arian programs where you bring in more powerful man and they can spot talented women and they get more comfortable with that and acceptor acceptor that works and we've done that actually with an organization here in Oxford the Royal Mail group which is reasonably success for fifty percent of the female Christina participants and fifty percent man but we have a mix of hierarchy in there and what we've discovered over time is that women are progressing much much faster in royal mail because there's none yeah but you know that's very interesting mark I mean you know you benefit that from having a female CEO right um yeah yeah so she's and she's interested in she's passionate about it and she believes in me the benefits that her organization will have and on i absolutely agree of you i mean just creating women only programs is you know is able brian alluded to before you know that's women leaning in leaning in and in in and you know it's not that there needs to be an opportunity there to raise their profile amongst the young female leadership and and that's why the concept of things like sponsorship so very important and I think that's you know a bit about more talking about war male group and the work that center talent innovation has done around sponsorship is absolutely fascinating we have sponsorship programs within ey but it's a difficult concept to put it into a formal program you often sponsorship is a very organic thing yeah um and works you know works best organically yeah I hang at the royal mail program it does work in a more organic level so that I think you're right was timed multi-dimensional okay I want to interrupt anymore it's very helpful I thank you for that um so yeah so I think just moving on then um I did want to i think i've said this ready i did just want to highlight that you know 117 years clearly is too can we work were you with that at work we would be fair um what we did anyway well yeah so yeah what is it what is it that we can do um and I think we have recognized we are on a journey and this is so we have to figure out a way to make it sustainable so that we feel that you know that we are achieving progress and that we can see that things are changing and that is that is the real challenge around this particular issue it's easy to then the issue is being addressed and in fact most recently the thirty percent club which is an organization's in very very active initially getting more women into the boardroom did a piece of research looking over CEOs and the vast majority of them actually felt that this issue is now being dressed you know and but the fact is you know as we know remove the numbers that's not the case so there is clearly a disconnected so how do we keep that momentum and that focus going so that we do we do move forward um and then I just thought as um as participants on this webcast um maybe you take a moment just sort of reflect on a couple of questions as we are moving to the the next stage of this discussion yep so we hear on what we've covered you know are you making a conscious effort to under a dress and conscious buyers to brians point you know that is that is that you know is that part of our role as strange leaders in the work that we're doing and you do the pathways within your organization's on the organization's you're working with to leadership include women you know if not why not what's going on there how will you know the data is absolutely crucial here you know are your teams and diverse enough to really unleash that innovative spirit new ways of thinking I I would also say a you know when you're look at that piece that goes back to them if not what's going on with the leadership because you really need inclusive leaders who get this in order to unleash a diverse piece and you know the object if you like the innovation piece and then do women in your organization's get the same support conceding ship as male counterparts I think I really mad that that that was what you know what what you were learning to as well so just a few questions for you to think about and I did want to just flag very very quickly the work that I've been doing around a particular forum that we created called women the power 3 which is for women and men and across government and corporate and entrepreneurship and a report that we publish it doubles earlier this year again you can access that online afterwards but I think you might find that quite interesting because we we go into these issues in a bit more detail and also some of the recommendations that around actions that can be taken are highlighted that I think one thing that was very very interesting when we released the report at dabbles was the one I don't want to mix up too many subjects here but was the growing impact of digital on women and gender parity in the workplace as well and I know Brian's going to pick up on that bit more in a minute but but just to say you know there's a lot of very good information out there that hopefully have you having listened to this part of that the webcast you can kind of pick up and look at in a bit more detail now we obviously got you a as well to come so Jenna that's really made my my overview fantastic thank you very much Rebecca that was really interesting that coming through which is fantastic so we'll take those at the end and we can discuss it in more detail and at this point I'd like to invite you Rebecca and you Brian to talk about your own personal journey on coaching change program we talk a lot about a month mentioning the personal journey that everyone goes through its second model program so by that very nature people grow and develop as the modules continue but I think from the timelines that we've got heavy you Rebecca it can happy to talk through it and then for you Brian it really kind of highlights how much change actually takes place to be personally as well as professionally and how they interrelate as well so if you'd like to Rebecca maybe talk through your timeline a little bit in more detail that's a date Thank You Gemma and well I have to say as I did it at the start of the call that and CCC really came at the right time in my career I started out in in marketing and business development and I you know I primarily in the professional services this sector working for another big big organizations and by the time I joined ey you know I was fully fledged rotten marketeer and uh I was doing a lot of work with our global business development community and I was starting to ask myself some you know some of the questions that we start started to explore at ccc around managing change if it's an organization that when i joined was about 100,000 employees globally we know 220,000 employees so it's in it continually has been and continues to be on a massive change journey and so the learning from CT sealed the journey that started with ccc and has continued across the change leaders and beyond as really mirrored if you like that journey and he warned that the two are very intertwined and and Jamie unite and Brian also talked about actually but the person was very much part of that journey as well which is why on my timeline I sort of reflected and that personal as well and because you it is for me very very interlinked all the things that I do and continue to do with my work and an outside of work benefit benefited and continue to benefit from from the word that started with CCC I now I think as you said leading leading this platform globally women fast forward and I you and I absolutely it's not only a passion and a personal passion but is you know it is great to be engaged in something that has real meaning a work perspective good um yeah you when you talked about the women's program that you helped develop it in why you took you talked about some of the things that help from the program I was just wonder if you could expand a bit more and telling us kind of hot you don't learn from program how you reframe the challenges or contribute to that debate or bring in models and perspectives that we're kind of helpful on that so not just just my understanding so how did ccc impact the work that I've been doing on the women's leadership he was is that the question Weston yeah okay so so my mind my involvement developing a tee wise went each program is has been limited so I need I need to be clear about that because mr. my work phone password is it's extern so it's very much building on you know my business development and marketing experience but but the thing I can say about the women's leadership programs at e1 we've got we've got three different programs is um yeah we do try very very hard to make sure that um there's there's a lot of academic research and well thought-out content in those programs and one of them actually is run when I cranfield and I think that is very important for me because anything often with 22 women you know in their careers there is a tendency to internalize it must be me you know it's what I'm doing I'm not succeeding etc because of me and actually being able to take it out of that context and say look here is systemically so as an element that's you and then there's the systemic element as well and if you understand both of those it will help you navigate your careers and I think that's really where I think Cece seems really helpful at home being able to articulate it in that way for me does that answer your question yes up Thanks Thank You Rebecca that's really helpful and if I can move to you Brian for your sort of journey both personally professionally and how it connects and related it consulting coaching change program please absolutely I got my start in the San Francisco Bay Area and working professional services after University I went on to be the first head of HR / to Silicon Valley startups or one of which did quite a bit of global expansion that's when I first started working in the UK and eventually was introduced to the program at Oxford haces a which came in a very good time because after two successive startups where change and really been happening to me even though I was presumably the one responsible for its these high-growth high change environments moved much too rapidly for the the proper kind of reflection so I think the CCC program brought a fantastic foundation of both academic and and then very practical resources and a good personal period of reflection me to be able to contextualise a lot of what had happened and put it in an entirely new a new framework really for going forward and so the work I then started doing with slalom which is a us regional consultancy like Accenture and then moving into the work at them audacity of here in UK has really been around trying to help people and then organizations understand the change that they will make happen so I've my murder quick blurb on Nastya is that really we're not a women's network it's about as balanced organization this balance the business ecosystem as possible and we certainly don't believe in fixing women I think that I think that anytime we get into to segregated women to talk about gender parity it's reinforcing maybe that they're broken and well of course isn't the case women don't we do fixed ecosystems did we fix and and really if that were the case and then had a monopoly on knowing how to lead well I think the world would not look muy is as dim as it does in certain quarters so we don't have the monopoly on this really shouldn't be looking to win to fix it really has to be a combined effort and just to reinforce Rebecca's Rebecca's points earlier about the real benefits we know for a fact that gender diversity just produces higher profits and better governance greater innovation it really increases the cognitive and emotional intelligence within groups and that is a future looking perspective that we try to help our businesses our investors see and embrace and then if they want to get ahead of their competitors they will start on as soon as possible in any number of ways there any number of different avenues it's really the starting point that's the most challenging or some of the reasons that we discussed thank you brother that's really helpful thank you so much that's really useful and if I can then take you on Brian to your next point we want that Rebecca mentioned earlier around digital disruptors and technology how that has been utilized for change management in the past how very much it's a very present part of the future and it only growing and if you're happy to tell us a little bit more about your thoughts on that and again mark and Rebecca you wish to chicken please feel free to say absolutely these are just two of the many dimensions that that go into disrupting certainly the ecosystem from from our point of view which is high growth and high innovation and it really comes down to all of the visibility that it's coming about because of Technology and how that then influences innovation and how innovation then leads to more visibility so the notion is is the notion is pretty clear if you just take a recent example of these Panama papers coming to life we would never have been able to to to have had such a mass communication in 11 million documents it's just something that really would have been hard to conceive of even 20 years ago in terms of how you publish this and then disseminated and then figure out what to do with it so through that little bit of visibility into some human behavior and some business behaviors of government behavior we're going to have new bits of innovation they're going to be new ways certain to to crack down on this kind of corporate and personal tax behavior and you're just hearing information today about you're looking to band together and create a new way to share information it just really be possible about without digital technologies now of course it will also lead to innovation on the other side of people who will become smarter and more innovative around how to continually dodge these kinds of tax obligations that the cycle is really the thing that's most important because you're not only looking to to disrupt elements of business behavior obviously but very very closely time to social behavior and and then the government's either reaction to battle in action to it but it's a it's a it's a wonderful time especially when you're looking at how new ideas are being I'll being discovered because we can tell new stories how new ideas are being funded because the traditional means of starting businesses just don't apply anymore really how then it will feed back into new ideas after innovations have been publicized and worked through that's great thank you very much Brian that's fantastic and I think and as we've had quite a few questions coming through I think there might be nice that you to kind of go with those questions while everything's fresh in our minds from the content we've just discussed and then I've gone to a little bit more to talk about the change leaders community that are no Brian and Rebecca you're part of and there's the cowards on the line as well who is the Secretary for the change leaders but we'll come back to that in more detail in a bit more detail about the program and to kind of help people see the bigger picture really so if I can go to first couple of questions Rebecca and Brian I'll come to you and each in turn and mark if you want to catch it in so I think the first question was around and Diana's after round reference to women and ambition please and so I think Rebecca this is around nutrition pyramid i believe around sort of you talked about women being stuck in that kind of a poor management phase and not really moving up and beyond that and i wonder when you can elaborate on that kind of ambition of women in their roles and that what we can do as to all people can do is change agents to kind of really give that more momentum well I think this comes down to the way that this copy thinks the way that women articulate ambition is different and that is what Cutlass calls the double bond it you know damned if you do and damned if you don't so if you are too ambitious as a woman you know you you have a label applied to you if you're not ambitious enough um then you you'll hear comments like well you know we're not sure she's really up for it you know we're not sure she's really that interested in she's got a family or you know whatever it is I think there's another piece that plays out here as well which is um typically you know men tend to get promoted on their potential and women on their performance and so so you said that is another another piece that is that is quite challenging in the ambition conduct so often what you'll hear there's well she's not quite ready yet she hasn't quite demonstrated whereas with a man in what your hair is yeah yeah he can do you know you've got a few rough edges but and I'm talking in broad stereotypes here but that is typically what is playing out here in there in the ambition context and when the research has been done either likes and Michelle ride actually what you find is that women are as ambitious um but they tend to present in different ways because of those the things like the double bind just that helps Thank You Rebecca that's great yeah adds a bit more profession to the bones at that point thank you hope that helps and and do listen you need anything else on that and and the next question am i can ask Brian this question said the Arab Rhiannon as a uk-based company with sights on an international expansion how do you recommend forwarding and making inroads on two ideas of gender parity in countries where this is even more problematic from the UK which is a really interesting question again Rebecca remark feel free to add but Brian as someone that's worked internationally can you add any light or any sort of points on this unfortunately it's even harder to to talk about this in countries where is the social more conservative conservative definition and conservative reality between genders and I I've been a little bit of working in a country in the Middle East where a group of women willing to invest in in in London and in Europe and one of the challenges certainly is that is that they have to come here first of all because it's not something that I personally involved in their home country because because of the men and women in the education system I can't go and teach or will do something like that so the network's very segregated so I think we we've worked through it by by inviting people into into the West so to speak to to England in two parts of Europe words just more acceptable and then we've looked to look to show how there are different ways of doing things but it's mainly been based based in UK as opposed to going to their home countries trying to trying to look on broad social change because I think that in more conservative countries the social element comes before business elements and that's a very very tough thing I would love to hear about gentle people have been more successful audits and I'm afraid that's all the answer I can give right now unless we really wanted to talk about it's a great day no that's that's fine thank you Brian out that really helps some if I can Luton in its cricket loaded question so I'll probably just ask one of you at a time if that's okay and obviously we can try to cover as much as we can and this is from silica else and it's regarding major accelerators how can we build a supportive environment you create a situation where women support each other at the top it sometimes looks as a woman that you need to seduce a man to be more visible and then use their power how can you overcome this in a more intelligent way and to stop women becoming reluctant or getting stopped to access the next level so i think that relates rebecca to the question you answered previously around ambition but and sort of taking on that point around are you eventually earlier Brian about kind of women pulling up and helping support young woman within the organization is that something you're seeing evidence of any wine is it something that you're actively pushing so yeah I mean I think I goes back to the point about role modeling I think many many senior women when you talk to them about their experiences getting to the top and there's a sort of recurring themes that come out often it'll be say I can't possibly be a role model because I would want anyone to have a journey that I had to get to the top I don't sometimes you speak to women and they say I don't self-identify with being a woman in this world I just identified if this is me this is me as a professional on this is you know being a woman this is almost irrelevant yeah and I wonder if in that question will mr. alluding to to to the second certain group mom and I think that's a challenge because in many ways historically women have to have have had to norm very much to the you know the very male majority sort of in in leadership and depending on that leadership culture it you know it could be I'm pretty I don't know best way to describe this but I think Brian Marco I mean pretty full-on you know and so so that is a real legacy piece that we do have when we see some senior women in leadership I do personally I do see it changing I see organizations like the thirty percent club where you have now some very senior women coming together with mainly men are four chairs um to to address the issue of women in the boardroom that is something that we can never seen to date so these these women are starting to stand up and in and speak out alongside their male peers and I think that's really important and I think we need to do more of that you know I mean I think a lot of people know the Madeleine Albright quote and all of that but i think that is and it is a shift but I see coming right that's great to see here there thank you rebecca and something you talked about earlier both of your prying around the addressing a Content conscious effort to address unconscious bias and good another question saying you know that's that's great and everybody understands that but how do you actually do that in practice how can you actually dress and the unconscious bias when often by the very nature of being unconsciously we aren't always aware of it how can we bring that to the forest change agents cue to jump in yes please guy for trying yes well it starts it starts first by addressing if there is an issue within the organization within within the system and the how you specifically go about it in any number of ways I think it's as I said earlier I think that there is a point at which the this whole argument will tip away from it being unconscious to the territory they being quite conscious in the sense that men hold more power and organizations than women and those men have to have to sit down and reflect on this and reflect about the future of their organizations and that's not an unconscious that's an unconscious process at all I don't think that a lot of a lot of senior leadership tubes dominated by men have to have to look very hard to uncover the things that are preventing them from leading much more inclusive and progressive and healthy organizations I think it's probably a pretty straight and short line from where they are right now to the things that they're just not doing so calling it out is the first way of going about it and how an individual project on individual initiative is rolled out I think it's more of a detail work but very quickly this is going to get blended into the territory of real conscious gee I'm here in power and I don't want to I don't want to give up any power and unknown am and this is just the way it's been happening for generations so a lot of that gets in a very very uncomfortable territory which is another reason that this is so difficult thank you Brian that really helps you can't resist a bit of a sort of starting point is they kind of calling it out i think it's absolutely the right key and the mother can I are you tumor can I just have one very quickly one point on that because I do you think it's so important and I I think increasingly there there a number of male leaders you start to recognize the issue unconscious bias through the fact that they have daughters yeah and and so I don't know if anyone's familiar with Michael Kimmel's work on you know on this and that maybe take some time to look at it I there is a real aha moment for a lot of these senior leaders you know when they see their daughters know who employs these issues in the workplace and it becomes very real and then they you know that is a real moment in time they're also to do some work the other thing that I would just flag is that there is a growing trend around unconscious eyes training um it can be helpful yeah I think um Facebook interesting Lee has put all of them unconscious bias material on open access so if anyone when isn't interested in having a look at least top pick you know then then that's probably a good start as good a starting point as any to go and have a look fantastic Thank You Rebecca and for reference to everybody all i'll put a reference to that book an email send out after the webinar later this week as well so people can use that as another reference point good time for maybe one more question so and one questions come up and sort of something I've been thinking about as all this as you mentioned Rebecca there's something there's so much information data articles research out there around gender parity feels like it's kind of everywhere which is fantastic but it's equally incredibly hard to kind of wade through all that information you find actually what's the kind of true nature of the problem what's the actual kind of understanding that kind of really complex problem to be able to use that data and research as a change agent within your organization for credible sources to help build your case and to change organizations from within I guess the questions you know how do we way through that all that data without having to spend laborious hours doing so is is there a way to kind of see the key crucial points that are there I'm if I can ask Rebecca that question to start with yes it's I mean I don't want to plug you know what we've done with the ey report but that is a good starting point as any you know and and then as a result of ANS bibliography you can start if reading up on different elements depending on where your interest lies yeah that's probably the quickest answer I can give in 30 seconds great that arm and maybe I open up I can make a point I mean one of them I think challenges and this is kind of more the point in DC is it's very easy to get bogged down in the rational argument here it's only one part of the vidiyum narrative of the kind of YouTube where women have access to similar types of roles and power and services Atlanta then do theirs although there's also young pathos logos and ethos or we deal with the logos which is a ration of facts that gets as part of the way but if we are going to be effective change you just need to connect with our thoughts which is the emotional values-based aspect of change and you know also ethos you know is it morally a good thing to do and I think you know a lot of the arguments that you set out at the beginning of this and our Rebecca work very much in that kind of rational business kissed kind of your man by everything equally important is the kind of moral question here about you know food society's be wasting such talented resources per se when we've got such you know wicked problems to deal with across lots of areas of society so I think it's not losing sight of these other aspects that make change happen you know it's just not just the providing the data that's not generally that that helps but it won't tip people into this rude i now make of change thank you Mark I totally agree with you and I just want to I think that's a great segue into a plug for the change leaders as a really really strong component of the whole CCC program it's been a tremendous living community with self organized and self driven and a great opportunity to reflect on all three of those dimensions for forever remember in store i I couldn't recommend CCC or or TCL more highly thank you Brian that's the nice segue into my next section Thank You branch we're just coming to the end of our webinar now and I'm conscious that people need to go back to meetings and I hope that you've been enjoying the webinars responsive to touch on the change leaders and just very briefly and until police what about the consulting coaching for Change Program and all this information and to you after the webinar anyway but the four i mentioned suspended or ultimately alumni community as food for ccc consulting coaching for change alumni and from lots of different cohorts over the 14 years now it's been only 14 years two programs and running and so you get a wide breadth of people from different sectors different roles different backgrounds all with that urge and complete commitment to create change and I was at the conference for one of the days and the changes last weekend in Paris and I can said it's really interesting engaging discussions people that willing to help support a network and enter what Brian's opportunity to really gain that kind of really supportive network whether you know male female it's there again a kind of cold family really is how I describe it and Elizabeth Howard is one of our panelists today i hope that kind of the family approach makes sense Elizabeth thought that's the way that I kind of see the community yes a family that has lots of all you want some debates within it one call per just like a girl so that's perfect thank you and and have anybody that comes onto the program can join the change leaders is a very active linkedin group as well as well as the conference's I've mentioned lots of informal animal discussions and networking and amongst the groups so just to finish off I just want to discuss thee and to talk about the main points of the consulting coaching for Change Program and as you all know it's a joint program inside business school and HTC in Paris we run the program from Oxford and Paris you get a kind of truly a European approach and angle with all the sessions taught in English and we have seven modules starting this year on the twenty-ninth of November and we are accepting applications now and we have further details we have a lady called Miranda Peterson at HEC Paris who is our program advisor and you can discuss kind of any questions around the program you know points on this particular webinar which I'm happy to take those questions afterwards and my contact details along with Miranda's will be in the email going out before the end of the week to you all including these slides and the recording and we're just very much like to hear your thoughts and how the webinars do for you at any suggestions for future webinars so we're planning to run a series of these across this year and into next year and we hope that you really enjoyed it I think it's been a really fantastic discussion so I wanted to say thank you to Rebecca hill and thank you too Brian eager and to mark comfortable course and Elizabeth joining us and so the range through the bait today and and it's there's nothing just add I'll wrap up now and I hope you have a good and enjoyable rest of the day and we'll be in touch shortly thank you thank you as far as Mandela thank you