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and see what he can do in the midst of unbelievers on the leading edge with his word his power his grace and his mercy for god's sakes we're lutheran this is what we know sounds good well uh whatever project thank you so much guys for joining us again this is your host dr athanasius today i have a very special host uh a very special guest uh his name is doctor or pastor paul redeke rita key how do you pronounce it pastor writing redemption what is he what is the origin of that last name by the way i'm curious is that polish there you go i guessed it so yes uh again thank you so much for joining us family and uh paul rydek is with us um don't forget to share like and subscribe it really helps the channel help us to get the message of the gospel from the lutheran perspective out there and as we always say the patreon everything that's donated to the patreon uh account will be used to serve the community uh to help churches out and people that are in need especially in our moment uh in the moment that we're going through right now with so much economic turmoil uh families that are suffering and so and whatnot so all of that is is secured for that um so yeah pastor again thank you so much for joining me um we have a series my my my friend and co-host uh we've we've had a series talking about this uh issue we think it's uh very important i think that as lutherans uh you know we have this uh long tradition of you know you know one of the sayings that we have in our tradition is that justification is the pillar where the church either stands or falls and so i feel that uh it is something that we just have to get straight that we have to have to get right and also i wanted to thank you personally for the series that uh that you put out the video series where you and some other men pastors also participated i thought it was great i it was very instructive very enlightening as far as the um the issue the importance of justification and also as i told you in private i also thank god for providing for your family i know that you went through a very uh tough times um you know when you you know where you you'll explain more later i suppose uh you know the whole experience that you had so um yeah just why uh don't we just get it started like this um i i always try to do a little bit of journalistic work if you will and try to figure out where things come out i don't believe that things just start or come out of no nothing so in this specific uh uh topic that we're talking i think it would be appropriate for us to ask the question where this the objective justification came from uh what was the need to bring it forth or even uh going back a little um is it was it a new doctrine uh you know how how old it is so if you can give us that you know that kind of background set up you know as far as we have an understanding of where in history we are why it came around what the people that came up with this uh let's say teaching or doctrine or thesis what were they aiming at and so if you can go there i would appreciate it i think it would be helpful okay sure it's a big question and it's really a long answer i'll try to boil it down as much as i can the microphone is your pastor you take your time awesome uh already back in the 1590s after the book of conquered was was written and subscribed in 1580 um already in the 1590s a man named samuel huber was invited to be a teacher at the university in wittenberg together with egydius junius and paulie carp liza leisner and samuel gessner solomon gesner sorry they they had invited him to wittenberg thinking he would be a great help against the calvinists or the crypto calvinists that had been invading saxony kind of secretly teaching calvinistic doctrines and one of the worst of those of course is the doctrine of limited atonement that christ didn't die for for all people actually he only died for the elect that small group who will end up in heaven one day and hoover had been a calvinist in switzerland prior to coming to wittenberg but he had always apparently disagreed with limited atonement and had preached against it pretty pretty strongly in switzerland so then uh he became a lutheran came to wittenberg and started to teach at wittenberg but it was within three years that um the the lutherans in wittenberg realized that not only was samuel huber teaching an unlimited atonement which was good but he was conflating atonement with things like election and justification so so he would teach unlimited atonement but in his thinking that that meant that the election itself had to also be unlimited and apply to all men and justification had to be unlimited and already extend over all men um if if if atonement is unlimited he reason then justification also has to be unlimited and the the professors in wittenberg immediately recognize this is not what lutherans teach this is not what the bible teaches election is particular by definition and justification is particular by definition because while atonement is unlimited if if the atonement is not applied to a person then god has no basis for justifying that person correct our justification is based on the atonement made by christ and then applied to the believer by the holy spirit when he brings us to faith so it's the doctrine of objective subjective justification wasn't called that by hoover although he did refer to it as general justification versus particular justification which are terms that did come up later in the church and were used in a similar way okay okay very good go ahead if you want if you want we can fast forward from there however much hoover influenced people in germany um after that time after he was kicked out of wittenberg and and banned from that territory i don't know who kept following him or who didn't follow him um that the teaching uh whether based whether coming from uber or or coming from another place showed up in america in the mid to late 1800s okay um and so it has it has been around with people um assuming that unlimited atonement which is lutheran must also imply unlimited or universal justification which really isn't lutheran but it it got lumped in with lutheran teaching in the uh late 1800s okay so dr hoover what he did just to make sure and kind of pin it down uh he had the correct view of atonement which is that it is unlimited christ did die for everybody but he also said that everybody was also elect how does that that seems to not work like just on its face and then also that christ obviously will christ justified everybody because that's the error that we're trying to explain today and you know that we are zeroing in on today but the i would have never uh imagined or guessed that uh he would have completed election and say that how how how do you explain that biblically that would be an interesting uh exercise to get into later and you know just for um i'm kind of uh i love history i'd like to uh delve into history uh and and figure out uh where we came from and things like this and you when you said critical calvinist immediately i thought about uh there was a story of this um this this king or prince that was trying to be that that calvinists were trying to influence through his wife have you heard of this uh story that they were that the king intercepted a letter that his wife was having with some calvinist professor that was teaching in wittenberg i always forget the name of this king but i i always think it's fascinating either but the story sounds familiar yeah yeah okay well anyways so that is so that is how uh who hoover is who would be uh the sort of the first person that started teaching um you know you know uh that christ justified everybody with his death and also teaching it that election was also for everybody however irrational that sounds so anyways what the what did the uh old as their they're called the old dogmaticians what is a proper so when we go through the book of concord or more specifically i would guess the formula of concord what does it teach what is a proper um you know lutheran teaching in that way sure every time that the book of concord goes to define the word to justify or justification um they equate it with it's a courtroom or forensic declaration that that someone who was guilty is not guilty is is righteous always on the basis of christ's atoning work applied to that person through faith worked by the holy spirit okay it always includes god's grace as the only motivation for our justification not anything we've done or or could do always uh christ's merit christ's active and passive obedience as the the reason for our justification or the basis for god to be able to declare a guilty person righteous um always the the word of god or the means of grace by which the spirit works the fourth thing which is faith and the individual those four things combined um result in a person's justification good is there any specific place in the book of concord where you would that you would point to that speaks specifically to this because you know i've also i've also heard password discussions in which uh you know and i try not to get too deep into the weeds especially online on online discussions and they start going to the book conquered and and importing this guy over here this guy and kind of uh interpreting it is is there any confusion as to what the book of concord or or the formula conquered teaches in regards to this like is there any space uh anything that could be interpreted differently or you understand what i'm saying there are things that people uh that work really hard to interpret differently but really it's it's very simple throughout the book of concord um obviously um the augsburg confession article four is is the short and succinct article on justification okay um but but let me actually read apart from the apology from article five remote lengthen writes this he says furthermore in this passage to justify means according to court language to acquit a guilty person and declare him righteous but this happens because of the righteousness of another namely of christ this righteousness is communicated to us through faith yes therefore since our righteousness in this passage is the credit of the righteousness of another we must here speak about righteousness in a way different than in philosophy or in a civil court so paul says in first corinthians 1 christ is the source of your life in christ jesus whom god made our wisdom and our righteousness and sanctification and redemption etc and then he he closes that part but because christ righteousness is given to us through faith faith is righteousness credited to us in other words it is that by which we are made acceptable to god on account of the credit and ordinance of god as paul says faith is counted as righteousness yes um that's not one that's always read in this connection but obviously melangton is is very explicitly defining justification and the whole process for us right there yes um do we acknowledge that christ is righteous whether we have faith or not of course yes do we acknowledge that christ earned god's earned a righteous verdict for everyone that he merited that that he earned forgiveness for all people of course whether we believe that he earned it or not but we aren't actually justified in any in any sense apart from faith in christ whose righteousness is credited to our account by faith seems to have been like a very biblical thing it's uh you know with the example of abraham he believed god and you know he was seen righteous in the eyes of god i mean he was counted to him as righteousness when he believed the promises of god and then jesus later in the gospel says you know abraham was looking towards my day you know which is kind of connected in faith and the promise it seems to be uh very obvious but you know pastor now that i have you here with me you know we don't want to um uh represent uh you know let's call it the other side of the of the debate we don't want to put them as you know you know crazies or people that don't know what they're talking about we do understand and we do we would agree that we think that they are in error but but coming from their perspective what are they afraid of i don't think that people hold to believes just because they want to be contrarian i think that they what what is what is their concern what is you know what what are they seeing in us that that they would think these people are just crazies or i've heard uh i've been called a heretic and things like this what are they what are they seeing that alarms them so much um there's a few things but um maybe it all boils down to um the certainty of the gospel first of all and what the gospel even is the gospel according to scripture the gospel according to luther the gospel according to the book of conquered is god's promise and luther summarizes it beautifully his promise in mark 16 16 he who believes and is baptized will be saved luther says that's the gospel but that's a promise the gospel is a promise and throughout the book of conquer it's treated as a promise and justification happens as the result of faith in a promise those who believe in objective justification uh ridicule the notion that you can have faith in something that hasn't already happened and and i don't understand why they have redefined faith that way um yes christ died it's not faith to say christ died it's not faith to say christ rose again that's simple fact you're recounting facts of history i guess you can say i believe those facts because of scripture and the holy spirit but that's not justification believing that christ died or rose again justification is faith in the promise that whoever believes in this christ who died for all who rose again for our justification faith whoever believes in him receives god's forgiveness is accepted as a child of god through adoption and is made an air of eternal life that's a promise and and there seems to be some uncertainty about a promise as if a promise wasn't really all that sturdy as if uh the promise but but but that means that requires you to believe it to leave the promise of what god will do or is now doing uh for the sake of christ and so they say no you have to in order to to believe that you're justified you must have already been justified i can't tell you you're absolved or i forgive you unless you were already forgiven unless it's already a fact and now you just have to accept that which is already a fact that's not a promise anymore that's simply accepting something accepting what already happened like like believing a fact that is already a fact yeah yeah like a textbook i think exactly which uh which is not really so okay i see what you're saying it it so what we're saying is it is it becomes a reality once you by faith appropriate what christ did but they're saying no it is a reality already you just have to believe it it's it's kind of a game of symmetrics yeah yeah when does god justify us and that's that's what it comes down to did he justify us 2000 years ago and now we have to um acknowledge that yeah and when we acknowledge it we can receive the benefit of it okay or did christ die for us two thousand years ago pay for our sins make satisfaction for our sins and and now uh offer us justification as a gift to be received through faith [Music] but but when does this justifying happen it happens when we believe that's what article four of the oxford confession says abraham was justified the minute that he believed the promise that god made to him faith was counted to him for righteousness yes exactly and i know that because i've heard you know the well i don't want to the the um you know in the book the law and gospel uh article 14 they would say you know that like we are making faith a work that's um i don't i don't understand i don't understand that uh it and and not only i've heard it also from other uh traditions where it's like well you're making faith a work by which like like god is if impotent if you don't have this work of faith so they weren't in very you know it can be frustrating if yeah it's frustrating because have there been people in history who have treated faith as a human work yes there have been okay have there even been lutherans who have misspoken or maybe misbelieved and taught faith as a human work as that one thing that the human being has to do oh okay the one thing that you have to do is believe oh yes people have taught falsely about faith that way we can reject that paul just interrupt you so we when we we're we're talking about religion some semi-pale agents like is that when you say make like you have to uh work up faith are you talking about or like um people that did this uh revivals and they're acting as if you is that what what are we talking about anywhere between anywhere from semi-pelagians to aryans oh there you go arianism right um those are i'm sorry arianism arminianism yeah arminianism does treat faith as as man's the one work that man has to do god did everything else you have to do this that's not what we're saying that's not what scripture teaches or what lutheranism teaches about faith it teaches that faith is a gift of god ephesians two but it um those who those who don't have any comfort in in that in justification by faith alone um seem to think that you can never actually be certain whether you're in the face and so again they're looking for something that's so outside of us that it actually has nothing to do with us that we're all justified and you're not even in the picture you're not you're not you don't have to be there you don't don't have to have been born it already happened um and so obviously faith is is almost nothing now it's just recognizing what already happened scripture doesn't talk about faith in such a dubious way where well yeah i know you can't actually know if you believe in me jesus said no jesus never said that paul says in second corinthians um examine yourselves to see if you are in the faith yes um you can know that when jesus says whoever believes in me will never see death he doesn't make it a doubtful thing like but you may never actually know if you believe that you believe in me it gets very confusing um faith is a much more certain you're saved uh your faith has saved you he said to the woman yeah so she you know it's a de facto thing yeah yeah you can be certain that you believe do you do you run to christ for forgiveness believing that he'll give it to you you can yes or no um yeah you faith is a certain thing it's not an uncertain thing so what i see here dr uh rydecki is it it all came out of a good intention there was a good intention i see you individual x you're having problems as far as your faith you are questioning you're doubting so to help you i'm going to tell you it is completely outside of you you don't have to doubt it in fact it doesn't even matter because it was all done for you you were justified before you you were even born just accept that uh and you don't have to worry but in doing that with good intentions i don't think there were evil intentions um but but in doing that you sort of destroyed the gospel in something that is a lutheran distinctive you follow what i'm saying exactly exactly it wasn't it wasn't some plot to change the scriptures or change the doctrine but but once you move the paradigm from what christ did already apart from us and what and then god promises it and you receive it through faith that's where justification happens when you move that paradigm to now justification already happened before you believe apart from faith and now um and now you have to now you have to come to faith in in your previous justification in order to receive the benefits from it you've actually changed the object of faith from the promise of what god is right now promising to do for you yes to the the object of justification which supposedly god has already done apart from you and everyone else um in christ except the scriptures only use the phrase in christ to describe people who are in christ by faith other this other meaning of that god justified everyone already in christ that just isn't that's not scriptural no no let me ask you a big all right no no i was just going to say it so in order when the paradigm shifts in the in the thinking then um people start to view scriptures different too so there's those those handful of scripture passages that um that don't that don't say that god already declared the whole world righteous apart from faith but they're reinterpreted that way because in in people's thinking that paradigm has already shifted and we'll go on we're going to get into some passages pastor later on a few and uh you know do a little exegesis and i know that you are you're very not knowledgeable about this because you went through these issues before but you know as a pastor i would like to ask you what would have what would you have said to someone in that situation because obviously i i think that you know uh the pastors back then they were receiving uh these people that had real problems they were having spiritual problems they were down on their faith they were struggling and you know that's that's a problem of course that's problematic you don't want to have anyone in your flock suffering or doubting or having this uh you know uh you know heartbroken or just doubting what would you have said or what do you think would have been the proper response if you have someone coming to you in your in your church or your capillary community saying that i am i am doubting my justification i don't know if god loves me i don't know if i have faith what would you have said what is a proper response from a pastor instead of you know because the option what what we're talking about here is that some people opted to say you don't have to worry because you were justified before you were even born you just have to acknowledge that what would be the proper response well you you point them to the clear scripture passages that speak first of all of god's love for all people now love is not justification um and and some people have even interpreted john 3 16 well that there it is objective justification god so loved the world punish was was quick to point out back in the 1590s that god's love for all people is not the same thing as the justification of people but so you point them to the love of god which he displayed in john 3 16 it's stated so beautifully which he displayed specifically by sending his son for everyone so that um not not to condemn the world but that the world through him might be saved so you point to the universal will of god that all people be saved you point to the universal work of christ which was done for all people that he died for all yes and then you point to the universal promise whoever believes in him he is received is forgiven is absolved is justified there you go and then you ask you then you talk to the person do you think god would lie to you would you think he would make a false promise to you of course not um god is not a liar no he's not yeah no no he's not praise be to god so so the first thing is so you lay the foundation god doesn't hate you he wants the best for you he loves he he loves the whole world and then he made a promise if you believe i think that's a beautiful thing i mean you're literally just preaching the gospel to this poor you know stricken soul that is coming to you with doubts and you just remind them hey man god god is good god died for the world and he promised if you believe in my son you'll be saved that's that's the gospel what you pretty much did was you gave them the gospel is that correct yeah absolutely and if they're still wondering well but how do i know if i really believe well did so so maybe you asked them um do you are do you agree with scripture that christ died for everyone because if you disagree with what the scripture says then well that's a different problem do you agree with that yes um do you think god will lie to you no do you want god to be gracious to you for jesus sake yes i want that guess what that's faith there you go there you go that's fine and then you have and then you have the promise uh if your faith let me tell me if it's a proper uh use of this passage but you know i think of uh you know if you're you're if your faith is as small as a mustard seed uh you know it it it is not about because we like to talk about it's not about us it's not about us it's about jesus for us and so it is not the size of your faith it is not how consistent your faith is it is what god did for you and you just have to believe it and that's it like it's not god is not in the um in the pursuit of kicking people out of the kingdom because they're having doubts or because they whatever it is that they're going through we believe that god is a god of it's been beloved but uh vanilla and uh okay i can't speak english today uh he he's good i had a long day i had a bunch of i i interpreted as a that's my profession so i mean english so benevolent okay that's the word oh there you go benevolent so so so it you know just believe that and god is he's willing and able and desirous to receive you and uh with your problems with your small faith or whatever you're having but to to to poo the gospel and to throw it out i think it's just um you know it's just a tragedy and to me it's so obvious that you know this individual just missed the mark you know yeah yeah with the best of intentions if you get away from the the simple truth of the gospel you end up creating something that's different yeah and that's dangerous very dangerous anyways pastor um you know i promised uh you that we would um go through some passages uh the first one that i have here i have my uh my pink bible which is my wife's bible uh romans chapter four uh verse five i think you have something prepared for us and uh let me see the passage is is it is it romans 4 5 pastor is that the correct one romans 4 5 yep that's one of those however to the one who does not work but trusts god who justifies who justifies the ungodly their faith is credited as righteousness how do our uh you know friends uh use his pastor use this passage pastor and what is the um what is the proper perspective or exegesis of this passage uh what is paul trying to communicate here so you know go for it pastor well if you if we want to start with how it's interpreted to be in line with objective justification it's it's this it says um god justifies the ungodly uh-huh yes the the ungodly is interpreted to mean um the unbeliever correct the uh so god justifies the unbeliever that is not um that's not what it means uh at all before you go ahead pastor yeah why is it why is it important to make that distinction there ungodly unbeliever why why why is that important or is it important the importance of that paul is um is teaching in romans chapter four is that we're not justified by works we're justified by faith abraham is the example that that paul's using and abraham was found to be justified not by works but by faith and so paul then verse 4 of romans 4 paul says to him who works the wages are not counted as grace but as debt and then he goes on but contrasting to him who does not work but instead believes on him who justifies the ungodly his faith for righteousness so that they focus on the word the ungodly sure the ungodly is very often in scripture um that's the unbeliever of course it doesn't make any sense to say that the believer in the one who justifies the unbeliever has his faith accounted for righteousness that's that's that makes no sense of course if you believe that god justifies the unbeliever then your believing is counted for righteousness that i'm sorry that that makes no sense and and johan gerhart understood that perfectly well in his commentary on romans chapter 4 verse 5 this is what he says with the word ungodly the ungodly is not understood as remaining securely in his ungodliness without repentance but as he comes out of it through repentance and faith this one is judged as righteous before the judgment of god through the imputed righteousness of christ and it's absolved from sins since compensation has been made for his sins through the satisfaction of christ therefore such a penitent and believing man who is certainly ungodly and sinful in himself is nonetheless righteous in christ through faith that's how that's how johan gerhart probably the greatest dogmatician of the lutheran church interpreted romans 4 verse 5. very good okay and so it seems to me like when as you were going through the the passage it is very obvious that in the context the word the the up one of the operative words in that whole context is the word faith and so to throw it out and and act as if you know you were justified without faith being contemplated it's kind of doing violence to the text because you know the word faith is very clear there he's using the example of of abraham he became justified when he had faith uh and so yeah it seems uh it seems nonsensical to say the least you were going to say something else about that message no i think that i think that covers it okay and then the next one is uh uh first john uh chapter two uh verse two uh it says he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world so that's another passage that is used by you know our friends that hold to uh universal justification uh you know to defend that you know that believe or that decision so what would you say is a proper first how are they using it how well i think it's very clear for the whole world uh what is a proper uh you know believe or what is the context trying to communicate sure well the passage does clearly say christ is the propitiation for the sins of the world the propitiation the that which um that which earns back god's favor um that that which um that the the reason for god's mercy oh those things are are in the word propitiation and then in fact in romans 3 christ himself is called the the propitiator or the again the propitiation um or the mercy seat all all related in greek yes he is also known as the the atonement he is the atonement or he is the sacrifice for the sins of the whole world um we certainly don't deny that we we are we are very glad to confess that and glad for that truth he does it doesn't say that he has justified the whole world it says he's the propitiation for the sins of the whole world in other words unlimited atonement yes yes the atonement that he made was for the whole world not just for a few not just for those who would believe but for all but um only those who appeal to the propitiator through faith actually escapes the condemnation that the world remains under so while christ was the propitiation for the sins of the whole world the unbelieving world will still answer for their sins still stands condemned before god whereas the believer in christ who who flees in faith to the to christ the propitiator um does not stand under condemnation any longer so the difference so what if you could rephrase that or repeat that again uh what is the difference between propitiation atonement and justification you know for for our friends that are not uh you know theologically uh you know astute or you know whatever uh a lot of theologically trained people um equate the atonement with justification okay of course as we talked about that's what samuel hoover started to do and he was quickly uh told he was wrong but it's what it's what a lot of people still do well the atonement is justification which is why um after i was suspended from the wisconsin synod back in 2012 i had people in the wisconsin sin and accusing me of denying the atonement which was ridiculous and absurd and contrary to everything i'd said written but because they equated those things in their mind if i denied objective justification i must be denied correct the atonement itself not true the atonement is the price that had to be paid in for sinners to be reconciled with god it's the price that's what the atonement is it's the it's the price that christ had to pay was most perfect obedience under the law and suffering of the penalty which the sinner deserved that's the atonement that christ made and remind me go ahead if if i may interject uh tell me if i'm wrong in my uh estimation here it's it's the satisfaction of the wrath of god is it would you would you put it in that words the atonement as a satisfaction or making making amends for the righteous wrath of god or the righteous penalty that man had to undergo for their sin would that be a proper way to say it it was the satisfaction in fact that that's the word that's usually used in the book of conquered okay or the propitiation or the atonement is christ made satisfaction for our sins he paid all the penalty necessary to be paid for our sins okay okay so that is atonement propitiation yes and justification is justification is god now declaring the person who trusts in christ who flees to christ in faith righteous innocent it's god justification is god's welcoming a person into his family into his house into his heaven and making him an air of eternal life that's justification and that certainly didn't happen for everyone not everyone is an heir of eternal life not everyone has been adopted by god and made a child of god but as john says in in the first chapter of his gospel to those who believed he gave the right to become children of god amen amen so um so yes it seems you know looking from the outside it seems like um uh our friends were trying to so like objective justification seems to be in line or in tune with uh atonement because of the universality of it but justification is not universal for everybody if the element of faith is not first uh you know had or you know you you appropriate you're justified by faith atonement is just a done deal it was satisfaction christ satisfying uh for our sins for the father who sent him you know to diverseness justification is a completely so it's it seems to someone it might seem like it's just a were uh like semantics or you know but but it's not it's uh it really is a uh sort of a sinister or um very uh destructive uh view of the gospel and justification so it is it is important to to to deal with this to clarify terms in order to in order to maintain the gospel if you if you don't then you are mutting the waters you're bringing confusion it seems to me absolutely i mean for a couple of reasons first of all um we can argue about human man-made terms all we want but when the holy spirit has used a certain term in a certain way in scripture we're really foolish to start using the same term in different ways than he wrote than he's used in scripture okay why because he knew what he was doing when he gave us those words chemnitz makes that argument quite a bit um in in his examine and in his lochie okay about the use of god's god's use of words in scripture including the word to justify second of all um if if you're our thinking um is founded on our words if our words get get messed up our thinking can't be far behind god forgave everybody people people come out and say god forgave everybody that's that's not how the bible uses the word forgive no actually god loves everyone god gave his son for everyone god wants everyone to be forgiven that happens through faith in christ so if we just nudge our language just a little bit then our thinking of that issue gets kind of messed up too and confused and thirdly uh it's important to keep to to understand that the those who hold to objective justification are not content with with me for example if i if if i would say i believe in universal atonement that christ made for everyone that justification is only by faith those who teach objective subjective justification are not content with us that's why i was i was suspended from the wisconsin scenario oh yes yes over over over over this issue and um so they're not content with it if someone who believed in objective justification just meant well i just believe that christ died for everybody and we're justified through faith in christ i'd say great i give thanks to god for what you believe you believe the right thing now let's talk about the words you're using in the language because it's not because that language has been used to people out of church bodies and excommunicate them and call them heretics okay so they're not they're not happy when you make a distinction because they feel that you're being why why would they object to that because you're minimizing uh or attending against their conscience i mean what what is in your experience as you were going through this uh issue well my in my case it was it wasn't just semantics it was the doctrine itself our district president came and back in 2012 and in front of my congregation and and i explained in front of the congregation i i absolutely teach and believe that christ earned forgiveness for all people he made atonement for all people that he wants all people to be saved that the promise of the gospel is universal believe in christ and you'll be saved but he said uh he went to wisconsin lutheran seminary and got two questions from them that i had to be able to answer with an unequivocal yes or no right yes in order to pass did god forgive all the sins of all people 2 000 years ago when christ died on the cross and and even though i explained he i believe he earned forgiveness for all i believe he paid for the sins of all but no he forgives people through faith in christ he justifies people through faith in christ and because of that answer i was suspended from the ministerial again it wasn't just semantics it was thus the words have taken on a new meaning unfortunately in objective subject or justification and even when you explained it so it's it's so it's not it's not a thing of misunderstanding where semantics like you're saying it's because you broke it down you explained it and still they were offended by your words as you as you nuanced it and explained you know you know he he tied for everybody everybody can participate of this but for you to be justified forgiven you have to have the element of faith they didn't want to hear that no no they said that was false doctrine they condemned that doctrine um so really condemned the scriptural doctrine of justification by faith alone in christ alone that's serious business now uh yeah and we're almost closing here and i thank you again pastor paul bettaky rydecki for being with us excuse me uh mispronounce your name um so you you mentioned before that um words uh you you had a pattern that it is it's not semantics because it also affects that the way that we think so it's not just words it affects the way that we think uh would you agree with me or you know correct me if i'm mistaken don't you think that it also affects the way that we behave the way that we view sin like i i really believe that uh teaching so words of like you said words affect our minds and our minds also kind of govern the way that we encounter or engage with the world what we think about sin you know and when i'm thinking about these things do you think that there is any way that perhaps we start pooping the significance of of sin of my work and you know sanctification or not taking the passages seriously like for example work out your salvation these kind of things well well christ did it all for me or you know um you know improving the way that i treat my brothers and sisters in christ and and and growing their holiness do you think those things are affected or it just stays as an issue where it's just oh words and beliefs and we're going to communicate people or you know get into a yelling match or does it really have an effect on people as they carry out their christian life in in real time in real life sure it does and i'm sure that the people who teach it don't intend for that to happen but yeah if you believe if you're taught all sins were already forgiven by god well then if i if there's there's a sin that i'd really like to go out and commit and i'm contemplating let's see should i do it or not if there's a doctrine that says that sin has not only been paid for but already forgiven wow you that might lead me to just say yeah well it's already been forgiven subconsciously right kind of in a way right yeah not that anybody intends for that to happen who teaches object or justification but for sure sure it's an obvious and logical result of of that doctrine but i think even worse is our understanding of god and how we view god if we view god as um as having already he's the owner of heaven right he's the one who holds the keys if he's already said the whole world is righteous in his sight then he's if he sends people to hell which he does from scripture then that seems rather unjust because he's the one who gets to declare people righteous or unrighteous and if he looked at the world and declared everyone righteous and yet still sends people to hell that goes against his own character yes his own self um yes and worse still um if if i'm absolved just like judas iscariot was absolved supposedly with the whole world that doesn't give me much comfort it does not because if judas was absolved we know we know judas went to hell yes i would say from scripture we know that yes and we know other people who do if if i'm absolved just like they were absolved and i end up in that and i could end up in that same place i could be just like them yeah yeah i don't think solution needs to mean something absolution needs to mean you are not going to hell you are god's child you are forgiven and um you're a child of heaven and then again an heir of eternal life if it doesn't mean that if it means something else god absolved the world but but didn't accept the world as his children and didn't make the world heirs of eternal life then how does that help me it seems to me like a like a like a big stumbling block because like because like i i know a lot of so of course i have a bunch of family members that are you know baptists who are charismatic and whatnot methodists and whatnot and one of the uh things that you know of course we have disagreements this agreement is with those traditions but one of the things that i respect and i i i i value from those traditions pastor uh radeki is the fact that these people you know really strive to live in holiness they're very big you know they're very sensitive to anything like uh like sin they you know alcohol is that drinking a beer they're scandalized by you know these kind of things they don't want to look at things that are inappropriate you name it they they really struggle with um sanctification or they seem to not have peace really because to them it's like they have to work these things out so but but i respect that they i respect the fact that they are sensitive to sin they take they take it seriously they they really want to please god and live holy lives if you will but then on the other side of the spectrum we we have this doctrines which kind of push us on the other way which kind of could make us a beat a bit hedonistic or very uh how can i say um cavalier w with sin because it's like well hey hey homie you don't have to worry about that because it's all taken care of i mean i think that the idea would be for for us to fall in the middle not to be struggling and really motive uh tormenting ourselves and not fall on the other side which is like you know nonchalant you know do what you will it's taken care of you see i'm saying so it seems to be going that way you know well i i think that those who came up with objective subjective justification or general justification and individual justification i know that their intention was to point people to the means of grace but ultimately it it doesn't point people toward the means of grace if if you're basing your everything on a forgiveness that was already pronounced once for all upon everybody whereas justification by faith pushes us always toward the means of grace and from the means of grace then toward a life of service to god a joyful service to god not fearful oh no oh i just i just looked at something that might be i i need to i don't know the means of grace are where god keeps directing us this is where god forgives sins yes this is where he keeps forgiving sins this is where your even your baptism your one time baptism is continually preached and the body and blood of christ are given out for the forgiveness of sins you can even go to your pastor and confess your sins and receive absolution from your pastor so and and you go to church to receive the continual preaching that sustains the faith by which you're justified amen so all of all of it um scriptural doctrine points us to the means of grace yes and and then to a joyful life of service to god as his forgiven children as we talk about daily in our baptism amen well anyways pastor uh you know just to close out i want to give you a space you know to say uh words in closing uh kind of uh remind us uh what is the gospel why is this why is so problematic about this uh teaching or thesis of objective justification and subjective justification uh so if you have any thoughts that you want to say in closing i would appreciate it if you if if you do so so you know you you have the microphones to do that password right that key sure the objective subject of justification is gets us away from scripture so that we're not actually reading scripture as scripture anymore um we have to reinterpret all those passages it's a doctrine that jesus and the apostles never preached and never taught that's dangerous because when we listen to jesus he says whoever believes in the son has eternal life he who believes and is baptized will be saved he even asks martha um i'm the resurrection and the life he lives and believes me will never die do you believe this dared to ask her if she believed the apostle peter on the day of pentecost can preach to the crowds of jerusalem repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of christ jesus for the forgiveness of sins paul paul can preach from jail and philip i believe in the lord jesus christ and you will be saved scripture is consistent with that preaching with that message it there there is no solid scripture behind and by the way you're all forgiven jesus didn't preach that way the apostles never preached that way that we shouldn't preach that way either yeah we but we can preach christ died for you christ died for all god wants you to be saved he's calling you right now in the gospel whoever you are no matter who you are because he calls out to all people in the gospel to repent and believe in christ jesus for salvation and you can be sure that that that is god calling to you no matter who you are amen thank you so much and i really appreciate also uh the snippet of what you gave us as far as what you would say to someone that came to you struggling spiritually that god loves him and that god is faithful to his promises so it's not only that you know that he loves you because of john 3 16 but also that he says if you believe this you shall be saved there's no doubt in that and also in closing um if you can tell us the public uh that the audience uh the quote that you mentioned from melanchol that you read where did you get it from uh all right let me look that up here again that was um a lengthen in now i've got apology article 5 paragraph 184 beginning there apology five what else uh beginning at paragraph 184 184 i forgot that's one that has the different numbering from one version of the book of conquer to the other but eventually you should be able to find it there under the apology of the oxford confession article 5 paragraph 184 okay lex uh my my co-host and my friend uh he is you know melancholy is one of his homeboys so i'm pretty sure that he's going to appreciate i appreciate that quote he really uh he loves gerrard and he loves uh mel langton and we have a lot of people also in the twit uh fide group that are big fans of midlands and whatnot there you go he was a great theologian very clear uh very helpful gerhard is another beast but anyways um this was wittenberg project i really appreciate you pastor for being with us i hope that you guys uh profit from this conversation i hope it was not uh abrasive or insulting or any of these things i know that a lot of people get into you know very emotional conversations but i think that we can have a conversation without being uh you know where we can be uh ironic if you will we can be uh have a friendly tone and communicate our um our concerns uh guide us back to what the gospel is the beauty of the promises of christ in the gospel follow the pattern of preaching that the apostles had and uh stop with this uh belief system that is uh doesn't really do much to help it's just uh confuses things and just for you know just to tell you a password just uh here you know in private but everybody's listening uh i have a lot of i have a few friends uh back in my country and in other countries that are lutheran are confessional and they have never heard of this before and what i get from them is uh just confusion uh it it seems like uh they don't understand the purpose of doing this they don't see how it is consistent so yeah i think you know we just keep it simple uh atonement is atonement justification and justification that god uh you know atoned for the sins doesn't mean that everybody was justified just keep it simple i think doctrine is very clear we we don't need to tinker with that and make it more complicated than it should be it's you know i always go back to john 3 16 and it really is that simple i wish we could just keep it that simple thank you so much thank you so much brother i really appreciate it so anyways i wish my project like subscribe and share pastor paul rydecki he has a facebook presence i believe that you're on facebook so if people i want to have more questions they can ask me or you know written project within the project we can uh if we have any doubts or any any further comments we may have another uh conversation to address that as well but anyways uh thank you so much guys for holding us uh holding on with us for more than an hour and i really appreciate you pastor taking time from your day and doing that for us thank you so much pastor wittenberg project see you next time bye-bye