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[Music] welcome to aspects of writing I'm your host James Kelly my guest is Amanda skin adore and carried a deal to do correct video today oh okay the topic of today's show is all about traditionally signed authors and my first guest is Carrie today oh and Carrie was born in Flagstaff Arizona she moved throughout much of her life spending each year of high school in a different location like Arizona Sweden which I want to ask you about that and Nebraska she earned her BA from the University of Arizona and her MA from the University of Wyoming no matter where she traveled she always found her way back to Arizona she's the owner of witty al consulting and works as a freelance writer editor researcher and instructional designer Carrie spends her free time with her husband Matt kayaking hiking and walking her two beautiful dogs Maya and is it Leila yeah lela lela or Lila okay currently Carrie is the author of nothing but a song and lives in northern Arizona where she plays viola in local symphonies she loves technology and finding innovational tools for a happy and healthy life so Carrie did I leave anything out no and you did a pretty good job that was great know-how right great so tell us a little bit about nothing but a song so nothing but a song it's an inspirational clean romance novel about a girl who loses her hearing and is she is a musician her dream has been has always been to be a big singer and of course losing her hearing she thinks that this dream can no longer come true and she has to find a way to fight through that and is that based on someone it is not it was actually it was based on the conversation that I had when I was a teenager and I actually wrote it when I was 14 and my friends and I were sitting around talking about would it be worse to be deaf or would it be worse to be blind and as a musician myself I couldn't imagine life being deaf you know and so I thought well what would that look like and if I did have to go deaf what would I do and and this book came out of that conversation and I wrote it when I was 14 and and and revised it in 2016 and got it published I'm just curious why why so long I was scared I was a chicken so one reason is in my book there is a lot of technology i had invented this handheld device that you could speak into and it would tell you whether you were singing in tune or not or saying something in tune and at the time nothing like that existed okay and now it exists you know we have a ton of apps on your phone a tuner app that you can get and put it on your phone and it'll tell you whether you're in tune or not Wow all right do you have any other books in the works I do I am working on a sequel and to nothing but a song and I'm also working on a novel I have a a three novel series that I'm working on I don't have a title for that yet but it again it'll be a young adult adventure romance novel and then I have a memoir that I've been working on where can we find your book my book nothing but a song is available on Amazon we're in the process of working on the e-book now so the e-book should be out in the fall right now it's available in paperback on Amazon and you are traditionally published yes I am alright and we're gonna go into that in a few minutes but first I'm gonna introduced a man to skin indoor and she's the author of between earth and sky and Amanda comes from a family of diehard scientists the kind you tell jokes about entering in a rash there were irrational numbers and the use of Vulcan salute instead of waving goodbye she has two sisters one is a conversational biologist and the other and a conservation biologist and the other is an astrophysicist you'd think I would read this I wrote this her father is a physicist and a movie buff and her mother is a mathematician who dabbles in everything from theater to stained glass amanda is an infectious Inchon nurse infection in prevention nurse but first and foremost a writer she says that even when her pen is still her mind is a flight with story so you're always thinking of new stories yes I always stay dreaming okay there you go that's good when she told her husband at 30 that she wanted to quit her job and try to be an author he said go for it after five years without selling a book or finding an agent he said trial two longer and luck was on her side and she finally found an agent and sold her book to Kensington Publishing Amanda and her husband live in Las Vegas Nevada with their pet turtle Lenore I'm still around she is yeah great alright and Amanda's been on the show before I know you're also a grant writer yes for about three years I was the grant writer for the Henderson writers group okay alright so tell us about your book my book between Earth and sky follows the story of Alma her father ran an Indian boarding school in the late 1800s and she goes to this school with these Native American children and becomes their friend the whole idea of these schools and it's a historical fiction book so it's based on true history was to assimilate the Native Americans into white society and the book follows her story but is really revealing the damage that these schools did for the Native American children that went there and how it really robbed them of their culture and their sense of identity and left them sort of straddling two worlds the white world and their Native American world and not fitting in really in either and you did a lot of research on this yes yeah because you would have to I would assume absolutely lots of I read memoirs I read other nonfiction books visited some of these places museums spoke with people in the various tribes that are discussed in the book but I love history and I love research so that was a fun part for me and it really is a beautiful book you know I went to your book launch and she had a very successful book launching you know so that's great and you at one time we're thinking about self-publishing I think or I know you waited a year before you put that out after yeah I had you know I was never necessarily opposed to the idea of self-publishing or and indie publishing but I definitely wanted to try the traditional publishing route first because on the first the first time you were on the show you didn't have Kensington I don't think I think I had the book was not out okay by then I think I had signed with them but the book wasn't out okay yeah so alright and where can we find your book the book is available everywhere books are sold Amazon Barnes & Noble kobu your local bookstore and your local library and both of you have personal websites Amanda Bentley you tell us you yes it's just my name Amanda skin and or comm am a nd aske na n do re okay and carry what is your personal website um its querida Deo calm so ke RI ve ve o calm alright and our topic for today's show is traditionally signed authors are all about traditionally signed authors and there's a lot of difference between well not actually there's not there's both similarities and a little bit of difference between traditionally published authors today and self-published because there's different degrees of traditionally published authors I mean you can go with Simon Schuster that's one mcgraw-hill Kensington I'm gonna talk a little bit about Kensington publishing in a few minutes I didn't realize how long they'd been around actually so actually let me just read that and then we can start talking about it it was founded in 1974 Kensington publishing Corporation is located in New York City and is known as America's independent publisher it remains a multi-generational family business and 2014 it marked Kinston publishes corporate fortieth year in business and is the last remaining independent us publisher of hardcover trade and mass-market paperback books so that's pretty interesting you know yeah it's you know there there's been so much consolidation in the last I don't know 20 or so years that you really only have the big five that we talked about but you do have a couple of larger independent books but publishing companies like Kensington source books and then you know that are sort of you might call like mid-sized yeah usually someone like Kensington would have been picked up by a big company they must decide they don't we are I should say the books from Kensington are distributed to penguin Random House but everything else is all done in-house and they you know have complete sort of control over their authors and I should the book said they met out yeah and I know Carrie you were published through crystal publishing LLC and it's a smaller independent publishing house and it's located in Fort Collins Colorado its own wife Patricia Landy and their mission is to provide publishing opportunities for new and experienced authors their services include cover design illustration editing layout and wrap as well as printing and production of course with the ISBNs and Library of Congress registration and let's see their clientele is global and offer translation services in major international languages is there anything you'd like to add to that yes yeah so there's heard it yeah and so there's already a little difference here in that you know now the how long has crystal publishing been around I think they've been around for what eight eight years or so yeah eight years um actually yeah it has been eight years that's really I can't believe that I thought it was shorter than that but I write and it's eight years and so it is a pretty small company and they actually so how I got my book published through them was was through a pitch over the phone with the publisher and I I've been working on the editorial board with them and so that's kind of how I knew that they were looking what they were looking for and then did a pitch okay so I don't have an agent so that's one that's one difference between me and Amanda as well and Amanda how did you pitch your book - kissing Tim my agent pitched the book to Kensington although Kensington does take unsolicited queries pitches unlike you know most I don't think any of the big five do so you can you can query Kensington without an agent I do think it helped get my foot in the door and certainly I think helped you know they always talk about the slush pile certainly agents have slush piles but publishers have slush mouths to editors do and I think having an agent one who had a relationship with my editor helped you know move my manuscript up a little bit in the slush pile so that he read it fairly quickly well I know some of the big traditional publishing houses they have small subsidiary companies and oftentimes you can go through the small subsidiary companies and submit your book so you know it's it's I'm working with another company by the way recently I'm working with workman publishing group and they have ala Quinn and I think it is I wish you guys well there's quite a few that they have so you know that's why we're saying there's so many levels to additional publishing today and that's why it's really not there differences in the sense that like I know let's just talk about the advantage well first of all what what is the advantage do you feel about radition Allah sure Amanda a couple of advantages I think or at least differences over indie publishing that I didn't have to put any money out upfront to get the book so I didn't have to pay for an editor I didn't have to pay for a cover designer all of that was done in-house okay and so you know I think as you're considering what publishing route you want to go go through that's a that's a consideration actually that's a big big consideration because I think the biggest hurdle most self-published authors have to go through is the editing process because it can be expensive yes and find a good editor your to find that good at editor is not always that easy right right exactly yeah and carry what what was it like for you so I would say it's very similar to what Amanda was talking about on the others no money up front one of the other things though that my publisher did was she got the beta readers for the book to kind of see how it was going to play out and what people would think about it and so that was something that I didn't have to do and as a self-published author I think that you would have to do that and she's also been helping me she's been sending it to a lot of places for contest entries and things like that and so she's done a little that of the push and a little bit of that end of the marketing of the book but mostly I've been having to do a lot of the leg work for the marketing and for you Amanda the same yeah I you know I often heard especially before I was published that it's the same weather yourself published or traditionally published that you need to do you have to do all the marketing and publicity yourself and while I definitely have felt swamped with all of the marketing and publicity that I'm doing myself I do feel like Kensington offered some good help with that I do have a publicist with Kensington that I work with and she's been very wonderful like with Carrie they submitted the book to contests to you know reviewers like book lists and Publishers Weekly Library Journal that may take independent independently published books but there's a fee associated with that that you have to pay for them to review so that's been helpful Kensington has put advertisements in magazines my book was or actually currently is the southern lady journal their book club pick of the of the month of June so that was something that well they did for me I'm in a book subscription box once upon a book club also picked the book for this for May and so the book was sent in this super cute little subscription box - I think 1400 readers wow that's cool yeah and and that I think is something that I would have really struggled as a as an independent author to have had access to so I do think that Kensington in that way has really helped the distribution piece of it and Carrie had mentioned beta readers did this in your book out to beta readers they did not certainly of course my editor read it and then the cupboard designer read the book but by the time they acquired it I think they had a sense my editor had a sense of where it fit in the market I'm just curious when you I know how hard was it for you to get an agent I spent years trying to get an agent and you know in constantly improving the book I had on two separate occasions agents read the manuscript and say well I like this can you think about making some of these changes and then resubmit to me and so I did that like I said with two different agents that ultimately passed on the manuscript but ultimately I think that's what made the book what it is today getting that feedback from them and then finally when I did meet my agent at the Las Vegas Writers Conference it was in a in a place that I am he was ready to say yes I like this let's take it on how did you approach getting your agent when you met them at the Las Vegas writer conferences yes did you have something I had a formal pitch appointment with my okay and which is something that almost most writers conferences will provide and certainly that will be at least on the details of the conference and so I think if you're looking to meet an agent that's a great way to do it again I think you got to think about that slush pile and you know I pitched to my agent at the conference and he requested 25 pages and I actually walked away disappointed from the pitch I thought oh he doesn't like me just like my story but ultimately you know these agents they they're getting dozens of pitches they're going to dozens of conferences they're getting hundreds and hundreds of thousands really of queries and so it's maybe you'll be that one in I don't know a million person that will sit down with an agent like I love you let me sign you right now but what I think pitching does in person is it gets you to the top of their slush pile so that when I did go back the next week and email him my manuscript and I said hey I pitched you at the Las Vegas writers conference he looked at it right away instead of tucking it away for maybe six months because sometimes you are waiting that long and that helped and then but then it's just a fit it's a it's a question of do they do they like your manuscript not like do they love your manuscript and they really want to work with you my agent said after he said yes I'd love to represent you he said I just want to let you know that I only sell about fifty percent fifty to sixty percent of my first-time authors oh yeah and and I don't think that it's that that's him in particular I think that you know you just imagine like I'll get an agent and then it's uphill sailing or that's not the right word you still have to go on submission to the publishers yeah and it's a very very crowded market and a lot of people don't sell their first work yeah you know I've done pitching for motion picture scripts I did that in LA and I can see that it sounds like from what you're telling me it's pretty much the same way you know you get your people from the studios they're there though they have what you get in line and you go to this board you rush to the board and you have to have some idea who the agent is you might want to pitch to in advance and then whoever puts the first like eight or twelve names up there or Lisa when I went to you know if it's full then you have to go and try and find someone else so you better have an you know different companies in life yeah and you better know if they're interested in science fiction or whatever it is you're you're pitching and then at that point you wait and then they call you based on where you sign the board yeah so I don't you know obviously it's a little different than what your you did at the San Francisco writers conference it was similar they they would had a room with all of the agents that were accepting queries and needed to research in advance to know who might take your genre and then it was sort of like I don't know just like opening these cattle gates and they had a bell and two minutes you had two minutes with whoever you were pitching to and then bail you have to go to the next one yeah you start all over with the pitch and you're thinking you know where did I leave off you know you're trying to get yeah yeah and it is like I consider it like shopping you know when what is that called Black Friday when they open everything in it the door is open and everyone runs in yeah yeah it's exactly like that yeah uh did you ever do anything like that Kerry I did so I have I've done two publishers and you know I just never I never really wanted to go the agent way I don't know I don't really can't say why but I just never really decided to do the agent way so I would just pitch directly to publishers and the way I never had that experience though where the cow gates open and you Russian well you know I think that the way Amanda went about finding an agents very important because I have had two or three agents in the past but I didn't go about it the way you did and I really wished I had I they used to have the books you could go to the library yeah I mean go online into it today and you could go through the books and you would try and find agents based on you know your genre and you it's no different in book format than it is on the internet you still don't know who you're talking to and if it says they have 300 clients or had 100 clients and they're all it's gonna say they had a movie cell and they may have but the problem is is that what I didn't know cuz I was young at the time a lot younger anyway and so what what happened is is I would write them and they were interested and then it's oh yeah we're really interested in what you have you know don't think we requires you send us X amount of dollars so we can cover this and cover that and you're thinking well that sounds reasonable but I've learned the hard way if you have to pay an agent in advance you don't want that agent yeah because think about it if they have 300 people paying them 3 or 400 bucks that's their living mm-hmm and you really don't want that no I also had an agent who was I guess you could say a little bit pompous maybe but he you know he thought he was really important and we had a deal we had I had had a movie thing I had been working on for someone else they needed a barge I knew someone had a barge because of that the producer was interested you know he wanted to read my book we talked about my book my first novel that ever came out and when my agent finally got around to after all that nonsense was gone away with the movie it was actually for the generals daughter with John Travolta and so when that had gone away you know I had called him and asked him are you still interested in you know my book to possibly make it into a movie and he said yes you know who's your agent my agent was there I put my agent on the phone with him and they were talking and he said you know I really like the book I'd like to slate this for like the sixth project down the road and then my agent said that's not good enough and my jaw dropped and I'm thinking wait a minute what's he doing and basically he pretty much put us in a position to where they didn't want to talk to us anymore because when you start thinking you're so important that they're gonna push your other projects aside you're gonna lose them and that's one of the things I have taken some script writing courses to help with how Grossman and he really goes over that too that when you're pitching something you you don't want to lose sight of who they are and who you are and in reality we're nobody at that point mm you know we're just someone pitching some work we have and you kind of just want to sit there and let them talk you know tell them about your book see what their responses are and then you know don't tell them what you want don't make demands like I want to make sure I know who the star is gonna be I went into me you don't do that you listen to what they have to say or you will lose them and it's really no different with a book you go you pitch your work you let them ask you questions I assume that's what you did yes yeah you you know you just deliver a short little probably very similar to pitching a publisher you have a short little kind of like an elevator speech and then wait for them to ask questions yeah exactly yeah so but yeah I'm just curious because I know Kerry you didn't use an agent and you found a publisher did you feel like you wouldn't be able to do this unless you had a manager or an agent you know I um I think I might say that so I have a I have a pretty good personal relationship with my publisher and I feel like she's really taking care of me but I think sometimes if I had an agent I wouldn't feel so alone sometimes you know and I think that it would and having an agent would help with marketing I would think and that that aspect and it's always nice to be able to talk to somebody about you know about current projects and about upcoming projects and things like that and so I would think in that sense a manager would be really handy I mean an agent would be really handy to have um yeah I just I don't know I just I just always went the route of just talking to the publisher directly and but that's something that I really think is very important to you when you go to talk to a publisher or an agent you really have to do your research and find out what kind of books you're publishing and if your book fits in that genre because you don't want to waste their time and you don't want to waste your time if they just don't publish those kinds of books and yeah it's an elevator speech and then you can't you have to be prepared my publisher asked me you know what kind of marketing techniques do you want to use and what kind of social media presence I have and so those were some really important questions that I had prepared ahead of time I know I do think that's a what a big difference between traditionally published or someone helping you publish as opposed to self publish this as well they always want to know what is your platform because I've run into that as well you know what's your platform and you better have be able to say something you know or at least have an idea what you want to do it's interesting because I think you know Fred ray worth Amanda and I have to tell you he's a funny character we were he was on the show and we were talking about finding an agent and or finding a publisher and he was dead set that he would not publish unless he had a traditional publisher 367 rejections later and I kid you not he is so tenacious you know because most people would give up after seven or eight or 17 or 27 but 367 I mean you know that's pretty amazing when you think about it that he went through that much trouble I'm not gonna publish unless I have a traditional publisher so you know you never give up keep going you know although self-publishing is not all that bad but I will tell you this it's very difficult as a self-published author to get the kind of recognition that someone has you know that has a little bit of I call it storefront you know as far as presence goes there are a few exceptions we we've always talked about Amanda Hawking she's an exception there's lots of a matter actually what is interesting I will take that back a little bit if you look go to Google and look up the top-selling 100 authors I think it was first 2016 and believe it or not on Amazon 53 of those were self-published so it is it is shifting a little bit mm-hmm but there again I bet if you go into research those 53 they probably did have some kind of platform they had some idea on how they were gonna market this and you know they followed some format they didn't just just publish the book and think I'm gonna make a me and I'm gonna sell a million copies because that does not happen right and I think I definitely think that we continue to move toward I know a book selling environment that definitely I don't know if it favors but it's good for self-publishing mm-hmm but I think it also depends a little bit on what you write and certain genres I like romance for example they can do very well self-publishing but that's just there's there's a lot of acceptance out there for that they're able to find readers really well while some of the other genres it's still a little bit more challenging to find readers and get in front of users it's a self-publishing so it I think that depends a little bit on what you know on what you write and if you are considering you know both options you want to research that a little bit and see what the market is like or the environment is like for your genre and one thing you have to think about is distribution to when you're self-published you've got to learn how how am I gonna get my book into Barnes and Nobles you know you've got to figure that out whereas if you're go with the traditional publisher they have an outlet already they've already you know made that establishment with with those companies so it's a little easier to get your book in the store and get a book signing have you done into book signings yet Amanda here at any of the Barnes & Nobles not here in town I've done some signings well at independent bookstores here in town and then also in Colorado where I grew up okay I'm planning on visiting a Barnes & Noble doing a signing in Salt Lake in July or August okay and what about for you Kerry cool so I have I just done some book signings in the library here in Kingman and then there are two used bookstores here and I haven't I haven't contacted them yet but I and I did a book signing in Wyoming Believe It or Not at the Wyoming writers conference because I lived there before I moved back to Arizona and so I knew a lot of people there and so I went up there to do a little tour and then I'm I'm doing a book fair and a book signing in Payson coming up in July in the middle of July at the Payson Book Fair well one of the things I found I will tell you this I I did represent an author who we did get hurt - I would say and I'm not kidding probably at least 40 Barnes and Noble's across the United States and what one of the things I learned you should already have us establish as long as you have your isp in which Amanda your book is beautiful it really is I just love the way it was printed and I don't mean just the cover I just love the texture of it the way they did everything but with that book you're already set up to go into any Barnes and Nobles and the thing is is they all they do is they just going the computer to see if you're established with a fifty five percent markup and returnable and I'm sure you are because otherwise I can't imagine anyone yeah putting that book out there for you it so you can just call almost any Barnes and Nobles and get and get a signing probably yeah so in the same way with you carry if you've got your ISBN on the back and you know alright are you distributed you know if she distributes through Ingram or Baker and Taylor or um I don't know that actually I I do know that she I am in Barnes and Noble in Fort Collins we haven't arranged a signing there yet but that's in the in the works and then I published through Lulu so it is mostly print on to me and so and I have some books that I have that I've been selling personally as well so but I don't think she's gone through those distributors or she has I haven't heard about it yet so my book is still really new it was just published this year uh-huh Amanda's just came out to oh yeah I was looking at your your book to amount on Amazon it looks beautiful I love that thank you for this well you know my personal experience is is that you you have to I I used to just every I'd spend two I set aside two hours you know two or three times a week just calling across the u.s. close to where this woman lived to try and get her in the stores and the other thing I did in addition to that because I'm assuming and then just an assumption with both Amanda and carried with both of you that when you are on the road you're paying for is that correct yeah yes okay well here's my advice to you and if you stick to this plan it really does work every time I signed her up for a Barnes & Nobles usually was on a Saturday they like to do Saturday signings I would either sign her up on a Friday with an impending independent store in the same city or on a Sunday with an independent store in the same city and the reason is your independent stores usually only ask for a 40 percent markup and they typically pay you at the end of the day like if you sold 10 books they write you a check or pay you for those 10 books so you've got money in your pocket you're not gonna wait three months because if you go through a distributor you're gonna be waiting at least three months probably to see a check so it kept it keeps you going yeah and if you she was doing signings every weekend mm-hmm and you know if you have a route I always tell people it's like a being a mailman have a route you know if you're in Tulsa Oklahoma you may want to do Bartlesville then sky2 core you know make sure you're going within an area that's just a few miles up the road so you can cover an entire area and/or region really and then you know work your way into candidates go across Missouri you know but do it in in some kind of a route type situation so you're not spinning your wheels and wasting your time and laws if you're on the road and you can be on the road for two weeks you could probably hit two or three cities that way mm-hm and yeah if you did the independent stores along the way typically they will also let you do signings during the week as well so you could even do one on a Wednesday that way yeah and then that way you can have money to go on the road a lot of people or for some people I guess money is not the option or not enough isn't a concern but the thing is is that you do have to be practical that you know what's the point in having the book out there if you're not making money with it I would you know the goal is to to be a sustainable artist and at some point that requires you know you to be able to feed yourself right right yeah and for me too I mean it's like there's a message in my book and I really want to get that message out you know about follow your dreams and don't worry about you know there's going to be bumps in the road but you can conquer them you know that kind of thing and so for me to not it's not just about selling books but it's about getting that message out and trying to just trying to get a readership mm-hmm it's interesting I was talking to Amanda Carey before we went on air and I have a new book that just came out this week called the purple caterpillar and to be honest with you I have not put together a marketing strategy yet but she's holding it up for the video audience but you know I need to work on that this next week I'm gonna have to be working on how am I going to market this now we have it out there right now my only marketing strategy is I create these little postcards so wherever I go to eat or I go to the grocery store also you have children and if they say yes I go I've got a new book for you it actually is interesting how that's working already yeah you know I mean we haven't done any advertisement in three days we sold almost 70 books now so yeah so if there is there are ways of going out there I mean we can't just do that we are gonna have to put together some kind of marketing strategy here I will get around to it but you know so we we all I'm in the same shoes everyone else is and I will tell you this as an author it's easy for me to talk about this on the radio because this is what I do and I have authors on from every walk of life who have written in every genre possible and I listen to what they say but when it's your turn to do it it's it's a different story mm-hmm first of all you try to more what do they do how do they do that you know and you're trying to think back I actually go back and listen to shows if I know someone did something interesting to see what they did so I have to take you know I have to take the same advice that everyone else does because I'm no different than anyone else it's just the advantage I have is I get to talk to a lot of people about it and it's scary yeah you know it really is scary and that's the other side of this I can talk on the radio all day long but when it comes to a book signing you really have to work yourself into that and say you know you got to go out there and do this and you got to tell people you know have you seen my book you know so I'm no different than anyone else you know and I think that's I don't think that all authors are introverts but I think a good number of us are introverts and so that's that's difficult to go out and be that that sales person it's a little bit it's like we don't eat you yeah you know any support that we no one really talks about too much when you if you sign with a traditional publisher you're probably thinking they're gonna send me out on the road they're gonna set up these signings and the reality of it is even with the bigger publishers today if you're just starting with them you're not probably gonna get that PR person to go out there and and do all this for you when I started out I happen to be lucky when I was here in Las Vegas when my book came out with the emblem in 1995 and that someone did hook me up with a good publicist and you know she was valuable in the sense that I didn't know how to go about selling my book to be honest with you I hadn't bought that part through I did have a few stores in California that's how I ended up back here in Las Vegas I did go and do some signings there and stop through Vegas on the way and this publicist was great you know she introduced me to a couple of well-known authors and actually one of them was Steven J Connell he's the one who used to produce 21 Jump Street on television he had like 42 shows on TV but he was a novelist and he had had a few novels out and he was no different than us and that he told me says James I have all these shows on TV but no one knows who I am as an author and so when I go out there I have to find ways to get people's attention because he wasn't an Rice you know he was in Grisham or Clancy so he had to come up with a way to get people to come into the store so he could introduce himself as an author and sell his book so he did lectures and he's James I'm gonna be doing a lecture today you can see what I do one hour before I do the signing and give you an idea and actually that what I actually came up with a series of lectures called aspects of writing back in in 1996 and I actually every month would go into that store for a year and a half I lectured on self-publishing and and it works people you know if you can come up with something a gimmick that will you know bring people if you can talk about something other than just your book that they might be interested in now I I know that there's a Barnes and Nobles here and I've actually had a group of people from the stores on we did a show on that on what do they expect from their authors and they kind of ran agreeance that they didn't like people who came in and did lectures before the signing and they said unless it's something really interesting and we talked about what I did they said yeah but self-publishing is different people want to publish so they're gonna be curious about what you're doing because they want to publish so trying to find sometimes readings don't even work so trying to find what will fit and what will work is very important when you're out there trying to pitch that story other than just going there and sitting there and just doing the signing yeah right right and for my limited experience so far with the book I definitely I prefer those events where I am at least doing a reading or doing a class of some sort because I I want to feel like I'm giving something back to the people who are there who've spent some of their time to come and and listen to me and even you know I'm happy to talk with them to answer questions anything like that regardless of whether or not they end up buying the book I'm just kind of happy to be having that interaction again that way again I don't I'm not trying to be a salesperson I'm simply trying to kind of create awareness and that's a much more authentic way to do that and as opposed to just sitting at a little table with the pile of books and hoping that people stop by oh this looks interesting so we're back yeah and what we're talking about now is exactly like self-publishing so there's the traditional publisher who can do so much for you and then there's that line where you have to cross over and now start being you know the salesperson yeah and that's where there are a lot of similarities absolutely yeah so you have to be creative on that end one of the things I found and I'm and I don't know if you're doing it because I have I've only been to one of your grants which was you're launching which was very successful really nice I from a great a great teacher about James Kelly it's a great great class on that and I imagine a great radio show on that yeah we've talked about it several times and it really works I'm working with someone now in fact his book just launched his name was Christopher spoda and he's on IndieGoGo so and it's called America fight back in the corruption and so that just went on IndieGoGo and what I've helped a lot of authors not a lot but I've helped quite a few authors who will go out there some of them and it's not even about having or needing the money it's about the exposure Amanda you talked about on when you are on my show we talked about grant funding and then we also talked about crowdfunding and they both can work hand in hand because you've helped authors get money as well through grant writing we've certainly talked I've worked with with authors to do like grants that help them attend conferences and workshops yeah so essentially that's money that's money that you can go and get some writing education out without having to necessarily pay out of your pocket yeah yeah great and then wouldn't when it comes to crowdfunding oftentimes the hardest thing as a self publisher which is different than what Carrie you and Amanda have gone through is they did have to put the money out of their pocket for the editing and for the proofing for the typesetting for you know the the printing of it itself so that's where there's a big difference between traditional and self-publishing so we've actually helped people get money through crowdfunding you know to help at least with that portion of what they have to go through but I will tell you the greatest thing out of the that happens and it's really no different than what you did for yours Amanda when you did your book launching is inviting family and friends and getting people interested in buying that book in advance so they'll come to that event and you know they want to be a part of it yeah and a lot of times psychologically we think oh my gosh but you know I'm asking for money they're helping me and I feel bad but the reality of it is all they're doing is they're just pre purchasing the book so they're getting something for it it's really not a you know they're not well they are but you know they're being rewarded for that gift they're getting something in return it's called an incentive and even if they're paying for the cocktail party they'll say well yeah but they're paying for the health and pay for the cocktail party too yes but they're going there and they're enjoying the hors d'oeuvres - I think you have to think of it in that way and don't be afraid so you're really a sales meeting even on that end of it hmm you know yeah so you know there's that part of it that's different we talked about distribution and the distributing of it what I really think I have to I got to back up a bit though cuz I'm just curious you had mentioned Kerry that when you were growing up in high school you mentioned you were in Sweden as well how did you go from the u.s. to Sweden him back so I was I was an exchange student okay and so yeah it was 36 hours on a plane and with my violin I should say in my suitcases lived there for a year and yeah it was through an organisation it was really about it it changed my life it really did it made me look at the world and it's totally differently where did you go in Sweden I went to a little town called swagger stop and it was 90 miles for 90 kilometres let's see I forget my directions right so the south west of Stockholm okay it sounds fine yeah it was it was amazing it was just it was amazing and you'll always end up back in Arizona I've always ended back in Arizona that just seems to be the case so I'm back in Arizona now after being in Wyoming for almost 20 years Wow and yeah so Wyoming kind of feels like my second home but Arizona is my first home and probably always will be so do you think that from the travel that there's inspiration to add that to any books in the future oh absolutely so one of the the book that I'm working on which is a sequel to nothing but a song she actually travels to Sweden to do some touring Oh neat yeah yeah so that's that's fun because I do get to rely a little bit on my experience from being in Sweden and I'm telling I've been telling my husband I need to go to Sweden and do some more research so Amanda honor has your travels ever made it so we did admit any of those your travels make it into your book or a little bit I the book is set in the Upper Midwest Wisconsin and Minnesota places I had visited before I wrote the book but then places I also visited after or I should say while I was writing the book to kind of to get a feel for what the nature was like there I went or I went for example to downtown st. Paul and was trying to imagine what it would have been like in 1906 and okay this building was here but this building was gone and used to be this and but it's it's really really fun to get to walk kind of in your character shoes and get a sense you know a sense of distance and a sense of just you know the smells and the sights right the sounds all of that even you know even what a hundred and twenty years later there's still there's so something quite unique about going to the place that you're writing about my next book is set in New Orleans and I also went to New Orleans as I was researching again too just to get a feel of this city and what it was like to walk across it and to to walk toward the river and all of that kind of sensory stuff that you might not fully be able to appreciate when you haven't been there yeah and and I do that as well in my books I always incorporate places I've been I'm very fortunate that I got to travel when I was younger and so you know I've been a lot of places but I always find it's easier for me when I can think of someplace I've been and it's like you said even the people whether it's in Europe or in the south of in the US or northern us there's there's a difference in people and so you get to incorporate that into the book as well and like you said the smells the food you know I think to me that's probably one of the best lessons in life is to the greatest things you can do in life is the best education that's what I've always the best education in life is travel mm-hmm because you know you meet people you learn all about people and different perspective yeah that's always part of what I do and you have any questions for me Amanda as far as we've talked so many times mm-hmm when it comes to you traditionally published III one of the things I wanted to to ask you Carrie when you you were saying that I'm Amanda you know haven't you have the agent anyway you know do you find this odd dealing with anything you're doing with your publisher that you're speaking on your own behalf because I know with you you're probably your agent handles quite a bit Amanda yeah anytime certainly he handled the initial setup set up and then when the contract came through he looked it over I looked it over had some questions that I could then kind of field to him and say you know I don't fully understand this can you explain this to me and then a couple of points I wanted to ask them if they would change and so he did that made those enquiries to the publisher which they did not change was the one that was asking those questions instead of me which lets my relationship with my editor just really be about the stories and not about the business right details yeah which is which has been nice yeah Carrie and you had to do all that on your own I did I did have to do all that on my own and I yeah dealing with the contract with a little bit nerve-racking I there were some areas of it that I just didn't quite understand and luckily I have a lawyer in my family and so I handed it to him and he you know he took a look at it and you know and I did some research to to find out what the average contract was and it it seemed on the up and up and I went ahead and signed it and it helped to that I work with the publisher in editing as well and so I had a relationship with her beforehand and so you know I I felt that I could trust sir well I find that when it comes to dealing with authors I think sometimes when you're self-published in particular it's really hard to understand this business and understand what it takes for publishing I know someone locally who charges quite a bit to publish and I always thought why he's kind of outrageous price-wise but you know what I found is that it doesn't matter how much you charge people are just as demanding with whether it's a little bit more a lot you know and they really have no concept and that's why we do this show too is I do want people to understand I spent $30,000 on my first novel and today you wouldn't need to even go close to that even if you self-published you can do it for a few thousand but when you don't know what you're doing I trusted people I trusted that they were gonna do the editing they said they were gonna do graphic artwork was the same way oh my goodness you know trying to find someone to do the cover and trying to paint a picture the hardest part is is to win yourself publishing you've got to paint the picture to someone of what you want on that cover I do covers and I've had I actually had someone come to me and I didn't get it I'll be honest I didn't you know so sometimes it's hard to convey what you want yeah and if someone says I want this and you're thinking okay so you put something together and then well that's not really what I was looking for and as someone who does that as well it's kind of hard to understand so but when you have a traditional publisher they kind of help you with that I have a feeling they I don't know what your experience carry was but it wasn't that they helped me with the cover they designed the cover oh they designed the cover this is the cover oh wow okay hello it well I like and I quite like my cover as well but I think in the beginning I was I what you see as the author and what you're trying to convey from your story is not necessarily the best thing to put on the cover of your book because the book the book cover is about marketing and I that was a big lesson for me you know I looked at this cover and I thought well this looks like looks a little romancey it looks a little bit like a book that a woman would buy that a man's not gonna pick up right and and and by and I you know you think that everyone in the world is gonna love your book and want to read it and I do think my readership definitely extends beyond women but if you look at who reads fiction who reads historical fiction who reads historical fiction that's not set in world world water world war two that's women yeah and so it makes sense for them to market the book toward women yeah but as a you know just as a writer you don't necessarily know all those pieces and when I might write my first novel came out it was you that when I was uncertain of how am I going to market that one the second novel that came out I the title was the problem and you know it's it's a science fiction my second novel is a science fiction which is soon to be re-released but when it came out it was it was I titled it creating God and what I didn't realize is using that term some people took that as blasphemy you know some people love the title and then other people thought this was blasphemy and we were talking on the last show I did how you really have to find a way to market to as many people as you possibly can so you don't want to be offensive to some people and at the same time you still want to keep your concept there well mine science fiction so I thought you know what put something out to the sound science fiction so now it's titled the alien transcripts creating god so that's will be out very soon but you do have to be careful with everything not just the cover but titles and everything else right and carry I like your title but how did you come up with that um I actually came up with it when I was 14 so what it used to be called all I wants a song and okay I liked it I thought it was too long and then I shortened it to nothing but a song and that was the original that was the title after that I was 14 and my publisher I was really surprised I thought for sure she'd want to change the title but she kept it and the cover I was given choices the the cover designer she read my book and I had no idea what I wanted on the cover I mean I just I thought well music and you know microphone and those were the only things I could I could say because I really had no idea and they came up with a bunch of different designs and they said which one do you like and I picked I picked that one okay you know it's interesting because when I design covers especially for my own books I will have several designs and because it's kind of like doing beta reading I'll take the designs around with me somewhere wherever I am let's say a restaurant and I'll just put like two or three designs at the neurologists ask someone which one you like the best and you're getting an honest opinion yeah I actually did that - I took my designs with me to Starbucks every single Burress barista I was like so what do you think which one do you like you know and that's a great that one which is my cover and one person picked the other one which I really didn't like but it's very dirty rule yeah and that's truly how you can do it I mean it really is I actually have had people in the past tell me well I like that but I think I would change this here and I look at I'm gonna maybe the right you know so it really is too good to do that especially if you're self-published but it is nice that someone chose it's interesting that they didn't let you pick anything though they they did ask they said do you have any ideas son discovers pictures of covers that you like and sort of images and history of images that you would like to see on the cover of the book and so I sent to some and and I did say one thing that was quite important to me actually was the book is about the Native American boarding schools it said in the Upper Midwest I said it's it's very important that if you do put anything related to Native Americans that its representative of the Upper Midwest name you know you know pottery from Native Americans in the southwest that it just you know I wanted that to be an authentic piece of it and they did absolutely take that into consideration when they made the cover that's great well ladies we're running out of time so Ginny again where can we find your book you Jenny I I made Carrie okay so my book is available anywhere you can buy books on lulu.com Barnes and noble.com it's Amazon calm and I'm working on the e-book right now too so it's exciting and you can get it at Barnes & Noble in Fort Collins if you want to go there but otherwise it's not it that's available online okay so Carrie the next time I say Jenny then you're going to answer Amanda where we find your book you can put my book in the same places certainly on Amazon your Barnes & Noble store your local independent bookstore and several libraries throughout the country have it as well okay I would like to thank our guest Amanda's going to Dora and carry the dare to the arrow today out today oh I always get names wrong I used to get a man is wrong but I get it right now right fine links to our guests website please visit aspects of writing comm you can also find links to youtube roku TV am/fm 24/7 comm which is where this airs itunes and several other outlets there's 14 terrestrial stations you'll find on that website as well so just go to aspects of writing comm and there's also the shows are always archived on aspects of writing comm so until next week this is your host James Kelly reminding you if you can dream it you can write it thank you ladies for being on the show thank you thank you you're welcome [Music] you