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the jurgen experience within sex research in particular i feel like sex research was the the canary in the coal mine because we saw this coming decades ago in that one professor michael bailey at northwestern university there's been a long history that's ugly between sex researchers and transgender activists and michael bailey wrote a book i think it was 2003 that really enraged some activists and i have to say trans activists don't speak for all transgender people i have many trans people who've reached out to me over the years telling me that they actually agree with me but i feel activists tend to be the most vocal they tend to be the most aggressive and so after researchers saw what happened to mike i mean i in the book i talk about the things that they did to him some of them were very unethical really they really tried to ruin him professionally and and his personal reputation as well and so after that people said well you know i'm not touching the subject because it's just not worth it and so anyone who has tried to counter trans activists since then also face really serious you know repercussions so i think that's been part of it i think also with a lot more broadly with this ideology that students are being taught this and they graduate they go out into the real world they get jobs and a lot of people even five years ago i would say dismissed a lot of this ideology especially around gender they would say that's only in academia that is not something that's actually going to affect me in my you know real life but here it is now it's it affects everybody there's no way that you this is not affecting you i think it's just a question of how much do you pay attention to it you know people send me messages they tell me about when they have training at work they tell me about their kids education look at the book i don't just talk about transitioning children i talk about the idea that gender is not a social construct it is not a spectrum i talk about how it there is a relation between gender identity and sexual orientation which you're also supposed to not say apparently i talk about sex differences you know and these are all things that are considered taboo and i don't understand i don't understand why we can't just have a fact-based conversation we're not saying that this information justifies discrimination against people in fact i'm always very clear to say that it doesn't well i think this is one of the reasons why you're so important because you're obviously a very intelligent kind person and you're not a hateful person and you're you're not in any way discriminating you're looking at this as a scientist and you're looking at this as a person who is very frustrated by the fact that you can't discuss science particularly when it comes to really critical aspects of people's lives which is sex and gender i would love to talk to you about what you just had though when you said that there's no not a spectrum when it comes to gender that's a common narrative so what do you what do you mean by that like there's not a spectrum so there are two genders and so gender for 99 of us our biological sex is our gender biological sex is determined by gametes which are either eggs or sperm so there are no intermediate gametes so gender is either male or female so this i do not think validates the existence of intersex people or transgender people i think we can advocate for equal rights for those communities we don't have to reconceptualize what gender or sex are and and also for intersex people in particular most of them want to live within the binary they want to live as either male or female they don't want they don't want gender or sex to be collapsed into a a kaleidoscope or a galaxy or whatever else i mean this is what's being published in scientific papers now they refer to gender as quite literally a galaxy so i mean it's ridiculous that's pretty crazy not just a spectrum but a galaxy 200 50 billion types is that what it's like like all the stars that's crazy um when you when you say there's there's just two genders first of all that's going to enrage people right but second of all you will you can see that there are very feminine men and very masculine women and if though if that is true what what accounts for that it goes back to the prenatal environment so i definitely don't deny that they're gender atypical people i as a woman i look very feminine but i'm actually very generally typical i've always felt more masculine and even to this day i feel much more masculine wait a minute hold on a second you feel masculine really that's crazy you don't you would never know oh my god you don't even seem remotely masculine like what what determines that you are masculine i i would say well from a young age i'd always been more like boys i looked like a boy when i was younger i've always just my friends were always boys and guys and i've always felt i've just always felt more like a man just like you feel like a man right it's it's gender is one of those things in terms of how we describe it is so personal and that's why i feel it's so important to focus on the evidence because without that what do you really have so what it really what it comes down to is testosterone exposure in the womb right but how are you how are you like a man if you see well how can i say this it's hard for me to not go in and digging into personal examples right but i would just say i've always been more like boys if you look at how boys behave how girls behave i've always been more like the boys okay like in like your interests and you're in the fashion shows my behavior i'm into fighting right i've been a martial artist when i was young especially i used to always get into fist fights with the boys and i would actually win [Laughter] but you're that's hilarious because you seem very feminine to me that's very odd people always say that to me yeah for sure so this spectrum that does exist even though there are two genders in your opinion a male gender and a female gender well it's not in my opinion it's not in my opinion it is okay but that okay scientifically right there's two genders but this is obviously a hot button subject right if just saying there's two genders will get you canceled oh i know i know we can talk about the non-binary movement because i'm actually very concerned in terms of what that movement is about and i am all for this and i'll use whatever pronoun someone wants me to use i'll be respectful my issue is when people again say that this is backed by science when it isn't and when we're also not talking about what it's actually about so for a lot of people who are identifying as non-binary i think it's coming from a place of sexism in society or homophobia so a lot of people who identify as non-binary especially among people who are born male they will normally come out as gay as a gay man and then decide to be non-binary or for people who are born female many of them don't they feel a lot of discomfort around their bodies the changes they experience being a woman they don't like the attention that they're getting they don't want to be sexualized for some of them they get they have exposure to pornography at a young age and they they think that that is actually what sex is going to be like and they think i don't want that so how do i avoid that well if i be if i become something other than a woman i will not have to experience this and and no one is saying to them you know number one pornography i'm definitely not anti-porn you know i used to write for a very prominent men's magazine so i uh have no issue with that i just think we have to be able to have a conversation saying you know if you feel different that doesn't mean you shouldn't be a woman or with regards to pornography it's entertainment so that's not what sex is gonna be like when you get there [Applause]