Signatory Nanny Contract Template Made Easy

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good evening everybody and it's great to be with you advocate very welcome so i greet you all in the spirit of lillian and [ __ ] in the spirit of sophie the brain helen joseph rahima musa these are the warriors of 1956 on whose shoulders we walk and i thought i would just share with you that gorgeous picture of sophie de brain in the sunday times today i want to know her secrets to look that good and she's the most fantastic shira of all of ours so i also greet you in the spirit of tlaleng mufo king the un special special rapporteur on gender-based violence shoma josie from zelim lambo nuka lindiwe masibuko sittenbee fabulous women who own their space and of course the national prosecutor shamila batoy welcome thank you very much for being with us today i'm very happy to be with you can everybody hear you i can't hear you are you unmuted yes thank you sorry about that thank you no problem lovely to be with you this evening so i know that you're getting it as well thank you so much so i know that this is a woman's day webinar and i want to stay true and authentic to that purpose because we have a warn women to talk about and so many other things but i did want to share with you that almost all the questions we received and we got written questions and you'll also see from our chat in a few minutes it's all about orange overall so i guess we'll have a few minutes to get to that but i wanted to ask you a question one gentleman emailed me and in the instructional way that some men can sometimes speak to women he said don't let her get away get time frames so what struck me beside that was how much uh what struck me and resonated with me was the utter desperation that you see almost everywhere in our society it's almost um the same debate that people in lebanon and beirut are having where corruption feels so it's it feels almost unbeatable and i'm wondering how you deal with that and do you feel that sense of pressure a lot i promise this is going to be a woman's day webinar though with the way you started i hope i'm not going to have my doubt about this because it is such an important issue and i and of course corruption is is you know i don't need to tell people listening and how important that is but i would be very sad if if this particular um you know event today um is sort of overtaken by that because we will then really not be recognizing the the other pandemic that we're facing and you know you mentioned dr pumbo luka the executive director of you and women in the list that you mentioned uh our former deputy president of south africa and she characterized violence against women and girls as a shadow pandemic and you know you mentioned you know war on women and you know our constitutional court has even said said you know the scourge is reaching alarming proportions in our country so you know of course we can we can talk some a little bit about that but i really think this is as you said it's a war on women sure and and we really have to you know of course there's many other platforms where i speak about corruption and i'm i'm happy to to do that you know and we're not running away from that not by any means but what we are we really have to understand that as a society and not just south africa but globally um we're facing a war against women and girls and children and and our our responses are you know uh you know just not sufficient and i think we really need to dwell on those issues and really seriously think about how far we've come you know since beijing platform for action way back it's the 25th anniversary uh this year you know we've had security council resolution 1325 20 years ago on women peace and security and you know what have we achieved in all of this time and where are we i'm not i certainly wasn't trying to ambush you just to ask about do you feel that utter pressure but i'll come back to that so i did want to ask you about a quick answer to that is yes i'm quite sure you do you are relating how how today has gone it hasn't been a public holiday or a day of listen for you but let's let's deal with the binary of being a woman in south africa where we have this constitution that has enabled many of us but not enough for us to realize every possible dream that has both foundation of empowerment that is recognized around the world but yet on other hand we do live with this war on women where being completely unsafe in every sphere is part of a loved experience that's absolutely extraordinary but also it's extremely dysfunctional so i saw kareena kucia one of the prosecutors quoted in the sunday times today and i was quite happy to see that that your prosecution levels of gender-based violence crimes and that goes all the way from sick harassment through to rape uh through to the love of women the gendered murder of women your numbers are quite high and i wondered if you could share with us some of that because it did leave me feeling like oh gosh thank god something's happening here the numbers are very high really very high i mean we and and you know during lockdown the first three weeks of lockdown they were they were about 120 000 victims that called the south african national helpline for gender-based violence look not all of them were related to gender-based violence calls for help but certainly a large percentage of that was and you know if we look at our statistics for just assault against women you know we had 82 726 um in 2018-19 and that increased in in in the 2019-20 period by about 500 we've got sexual offenses that are you know 52 000 in the one year uh rape has increased by 1.7 from 40 over 41 000 to 40 just slightly but to about 42 000 in the following year and and you know we've we've in the past um you know that we've got there's so many initiatives but if you look at these statistics it is really scary i think the statistics is two women seven women and two children and this is not sgbv are killed every day every day and you know this is you know it is a war when you have seven women and two children dying every day then we have to really question what is going on in our country when when the levels of violence against women and children and we won't even talk about the general levels of crime in this country is just so high and yeah so that is the reality as far as statistics is but i must add that you know in the courts you said you know one of the prosecutors spoke today we have really good conviction rates in the sense that you know it's about uh 70 to 80 in a conviction rating in the year 2000 we had a 48 conviction rate that increased about 60 in 2010 and now it's sitting around 75 percent but that conviction rate and this is important is based on the number of cases that come to court not on the reported numb cases and what's the difference between those two these are very important statistics because the number of reported and our crime stats were released just recently yes so the number of reported the conviction rate vis-a-vis the reported cases is 10.5 percent for rape and 9.2 for sexual assault so the difference is it's when you compare how many convictions do you have as when compared to the reported crimes as opposed to those that ultimately are detected and get onto the court rules once it gets onto the court rules we have a 75 percent but it's the detection rate and what actually gets onto the court rules that stands at around content and if you add to that under reporting we know that globally is vast under reporting with regard to sexual offenses the real the percentage of how many victims of rape and other sexual for assault actually get justice at the end of the day is even less than ten percent and the reason that that figure of one in nine rapes actually being reported do you think that's still correct that's one we used as young young activists or do you think that the years of democracy have brought that down or made it worse i mean just the scan of the media will suggest you it's it's worse but i'd love to know what the the actual rates are are telling you and what your view is i don't have the actual statistics now but it i wouldn't be surprised if it's still around that rate the under reporting is extremely high and you know if you put that all into the into the pot um victims or survivors of rapes and sexual assaults the vast majority don't receive justice for various reasons and that that picture has to change does that keep you up at night and what's happened since you came in i know that your part the way you can impact is a small part but if you could just think for us along the continuum what are how where is there light at the end of the tunnel do you see reporting being a more effective process than it used to be just last week i read about a woman who had a reported abusive partner a cop dropped her back home and said ah you must make right at home and too often do we do a year of these kinds of cases you know ferial that it is so important that you know in order to to try to address this from a reactive perspective because as you know the criminal justice system comes in after the crime's been committed and there's a there's a whole lot that needs to happen proactively that i do want to touch on because that is something that that is you know it's it's a what is happening is a reflection of what is going on in our society so an effective criminal justice system is really important it plays a really crucial role in trying to serve as a deterrent and as you know you know people have said you know one of the most effective deterrents to any crime is the certainty of detestion and that there will be a solid investigation and a prosecution now when you look at the figures there's no certainty about that at all and so you know there's been a lot that's going on in the criminal justice system but still there's there's so much more that needs to happen within the npa we are doing you know we we are part of the emergency response action plan plan of the president we've prioritized these matters of sgbv and femicide we are looking at you know training of the prosecutors we have the tutuzela care center model which is regarded as an international best practice in terms of how we deal with sexual and gender-based crimes holistically you know it is victim-centered victims that come here they receive you know lots of support services that are necessary um you know we have prosecutor guided investigations and so i don't want to go into the detail of the kind of services they provide but that's the first step but once once once those that are violated come into the system it is really important that all criminal justice professionals in the system you know whether they are the prosecutors the defense the magistrates the judges everybody needs training in the social context and understanding the gender perspective and understanding the trauma understanding secondary victimization because it isn't it doesn't help if you have just one or two aspects of the system that are focusing on this and that the others are not because whenever when a victim comes into the system she looks at the entire system and and you know i have to i have to concede that that you know our systems are failing uh you know some of our some of those that actually do think you know do decide to come and approach the system and try to get justice um because there's there's a lot that needs to be done in in this field so you know we've with the tutus to zelda care centers as i said they're international best practice we are we are developing a gender gender policy we've just started that now which looks at how we will you know really deal more effectively with gender-based violence we are working with our colleagues in the sap south african police service i've had meetings with the national commissioner um and we've had other meetings at a more technical level where we are looking at trying what one of the major challenges is really dealing with the forensic evidence and you know having sufficient crime kits so that you can collect the evidence and and you know having them tested in in the labs and so you know we are looking at a backlog project we are trying to you know collect a whole lot of cold cases where forensic evidence was not available at the time we are trying to fast track and to look at cases that had been withdrawn because of forensic evidence not being available at the time or delays with getting it and trying to actually ensure that these cases are brought back onto the role and that those victims still get justice so there's a lot that that's happening even with the emergency response action plan as i said which is being led by the presidency but this is reaction and when you look at proactively what needs to happen in our society you know what is going on when when what are the kinds of values that we are we are teaching our children you know schools and universities need to come on board what are we teaching our young people when when they can actually violate and the values by which they live i are just you know it talks to violence and disrespect for not just women but for other human beings sure so they really know i guess those are a societal response but i think from many of the questions and i'm you'll just see me looking i'm going to start reading them so welcome zahira larry kramer glenn bossmann i'm going to ask question from florencia belvedere welcome what's been done to ensure that the entire criminal justice value chain is improved and the relationship interaction between police prosecution courts prisons you started speaking about ourselves i'll do a few shamila at the same time from arvind gender violence and corruption is killing our country does the npa have enough muscle to fight the scourge many questions came in this afternoon and tonight about whether you have the right skills and enough people um from bernie radomski what can be done to change the culture of men as regards women i think that's a societal question as you said from viva rattle it's absolutely essential we find a way to teach our boys and men to honor and protect women and girls big messaging about that from our president from daniela kruger a big up for you but toy will bring credibility back to the npa um and then michelle postman not so great it all sounds like the consumer protection all talk but absolutely no bite then a question from graham turnbull and alstopia the level of corruption in our country has affected the position of women in society and their vulnerability their experience due to poverty a discussion on corruption and the link to gender-based violence are surely linked and should be a topic in this webinar you said as much as well as about when you wrote in the guardian last month um about the extreme challenges posed to uh women um by the pandemic that's a mouthful i know but i think you know i wasn't right let me start you know i don't blame people for for saying it's all talk and no action you know i i don't blame people saying that because look at where we are so you know within the criminal justice system and i think that was your your first question we are you know there's there's firstly it is a it is a priority in our strategy it is it is a priority in all the director of public prosecutions divisions um throughout the country um and you know we have developed a training module um as part of the advanced sexual offences training curriculum which deals with you know all aspects of you know context sensitivity uh awareness in prosecutorial decent decision making and you know we continuously update this manual pilot or is it rolled out to your end no no that's nervous throughout the entire service this is being updated it is it is it is what has been happening for a number of years the npa established the sexual offenses and community affairs unit uh some years back about 20 years ago and this unit that is the truth zela care centers was actually set up in the context of this unit in the npa which as i said is an international best practice in terms of support to women but we've also been you know part of deliberated in the process of legislative amendments uh to the criminal procedure act of domestic violence act um and there's been a number of in fact there were just legislative amendments that were passed just last week um relating to sexual offenses and and so there's a lot that's going on in this space uh in terms of enhancing and if you just look at the the conviction rates of what actually comes into the prosecution space at 75 percent means there's a lot going on and i also have some statistics on on the sentences that are being meted out by the court and so if you if you look at you know the number of accused receiving sentences for either life imprisonment or terms of imprisonment of between 20 and 25 years has been steadily increasing in 2018-2019 year of the 1774 accused um that were convicted um around just over 25 percent of them received these long sentences in the 20 2019-2020 financial year uh there were that rose to 28.5 so just under a third of those receiving life imprisonment or long terms of between 20 and 25 years and then even as we come down there's a large percentage that received between 10 and 20 years imprisonment so the thing is the criminal justice system although i acknowledge right from the outset there's there's a lot that needs to happen because the detection rate is low but one once they enter the justice system the prosecutors are trained we are getting a conviction rate of 75 we're getting high sentences being imposed but at the end of the day it's not an effective deterrent these the the violations are still going up so you know the question is it has to be seen in the the rea so the reactive part of it is is is although it's not perfect they you know at 75 conviction rate that's a really good stat but when you look at the reported cases the detection what's happening in society why is that going on then you really have to look beyond the criminal justice system to look at how we address the scourge so you know in terms of um the last question relating to um you know many of the questions related to the criminal justice system and what we're doing and failure do you work together with the police do you have those um prosecution-led investigations for example we work very closely with the police um and you know the the prosecutors on the ground at the highest level with with the national commissioner we have been working very very closely with them but the one thing we do need to work on in the criminal justice system is is trying to increase the detection rate and try to increase the number of cases that actually do come do go to trial that that amount of 10 percent is is seriously concerning is that you know a lot of dropping cases or because the detection is just so appalling the case built to bring to you to the npas is poor it doesn't stand up in court or are people dropping case dropping charges um early in the process you know a large percentage of it is is because we don't get the evidence that we need to proceed and and that is the challenge and what is also concerning is that you know the research has shown that a large percentage of the perpetrators of these offenses are often known to the victim either an acquaintance a friend a family member um you know a relative um and and not just when it comes to children the percentage is higher when it comes to children but when it comes to all um victimizations it is a high percentage of people that are known to the to the victims and so you know when you look at that um i i one you know the stigmatization you know what this goes to reporting me and the various other reasons why women don't come forward lack of confidence in the system itself is one of those reasons but you know when you look at the fact that many of the perpetrators are known you you begin to think then why is this so low why are the percentages so low why are we not able to get the evidence that we need to bring these cases to court and until that sorry there was a question around the link between particularly covet 19 now and and corruption and the impact on women um i can't i can't agree more with the person who raised that quiz question the the impact of corruption generally on women because we we know that you know as a result of corruption they have been many um many interventions in terms of providing base services that you know money has been stolen so you know basic services like water sanitation etc has not been provided and so the the impact on women as as generally as a care giver in the family but also on those women that are trying in the informal sector has been huge and when you look at the covet 19 impact um you know we were in our discussions uh in in government in trying to address um you know the response to to covet 19 generally and to corruption in particular i know the department of women was looking at at a gender analysis doing a gender analysis in terms of looking carefully at what is the impact of covet 19 in particular on women so that the interventions that are put in place can actually talk directly to that as a result of a comprehensive gender analysis so there are things that are happening in government to address this issue in particular i think it's it's very it's very slow because you've seen this around the world in the uk everywhere where they're calling this a she session because the impacts on women's employment women in informal sectors are are quite clear but i do want to go on because many people really lovely questions and comments and give you a few more from joan fanika very little funding going into primary prevention and joan should know her story um from boston i'm concerned but we'll get to those in a moment just go a little bit further down um denise huxson under reporting because victims fear the process we spoke a little bit about that um and then many more so what i do want to ask you are someone who's followed those two to zela case centers very very carefully through the years they seem to have fallen victim to the same kind of hollowing out of your institution that we saw through the klyptocratic years where they were defunded or underfunded and really you didn't have your top people running that part of the npa how have you improved those things and has some of the 1.5 additional 1.5 billion additional budget you got has it gone into ensuring that we have the right kind of prosecutorial talent to to prosecute the war on women because i do think when you start seeing those big sentences coming through and the uh the big rings being cracked it has an impact of making one as a woman in our country feel safer uh yeah ferial on on the tutusella care center model that has there are many of them that are working extremely well but there are some of them that do challenges and what we have actually found is that the system lacked a national coordination structure okay so what what we have just put in place in fact being put in place at the moment is a national truth zela care coordination center and and we are also together with um unodc looking at doing an evaluation of each one of the centers so that we can you know have a have a good understanding because there are many of them that are working well but there are some of them that actually need assistance and that's the importance odc just to tell us yeah office for drugs and crime okay so so the the the the problem with the um the tutuzella care centers is that because you have um it's a multidisciplinary approach um the hollowing out as you said has had an impact on this because getting the right skills they are not just from prosecutors but from all of the the other support services and at this point i must really acknowledge the work of various other entities like the department of health like the department of social development and various ngos that are actually providing a lot of services at these twitterseller care centers that support the victims and survivors of these crimes and so i think the most important thing is the evaluation and then the national structure that is going to actually look at each at a look holistically at what is working what is not working and give the impetus from a national level to ensure that we engage the relevant departments with ngos and we make sure that the centers are working optimally as they need as they should be there are 55 right and it's envisaged that there will be another i think it's seven more that will be created within this you uh when you expect that to be finished because i've watched you carefully not in a stalky way but just because i'm interested in the rebuilding of the institution is when do you expect that work to be finished because i think that you go for the polished final perfect product and it can sometimes take a little bit long so when at least will that diagnostic be done i i hear what you're saying you know yeah they say what to say perfection is enemy of the good you know so we are we are hoping you know that you know we must try for within the next six months to try to ensure that we have the evaluation done and certainly to have national structure also set up during that period and let's say a year from now we do another one of these next year this time i hope we will with you where would you like things to be i also would just like you to walk us through you know our country so see such intense news all the time that we actually missed that the cabinet approved very important gbv bills gender-based violence bowls this week extremely important there were criminal criminal law criminal amendment law amendments uh the national register will be changed the domestic violence amendment bill will go before parliament could you explain to us in a nutshell why these are important for us to know about i think you know the it actually the fact that we need to to uh boost our you know legislative um react response to these these means that you know we've it recognizes that well it's a recognition by you know government that you know we need a more powerful legal framework the fact of the register is a really really important issue because many people that have had offenses for example for example pedophiles were actually these registers were not available or they were available only in a very limited context so the fact that you know we are going to this is going to be more available to certain other areas where people work particularly with children is a really important step in the right direction in terms of dealing with um the the violations against children so these are you know the strengthening the legislative straight framework is part is one part of government's response to deal with holistically with the response but as i said these are all reactionary and as joan for nick had said there's there's perhaps not enough that is being done at the preventative side of it unless we focus on that and the prosecutors we have you asked a question earlier we have really well-trained prosecutors prosecutors who do their jobs well so from the npa perspective i feel confident that we do have the skills that we need but the whole of government approach and the preventative side of it that is where the key is going to lie in one is prevention and two is better detection of these cases so here's a lovely question from sandy shell how much serious training in forensics and collection of evidence does our saps have i know you're not in charge of the police service but you'll have a sense uh from joan furnikirk again we have two registers and they duplicate each other's if we really want to protect women and children we should be using the sap 69 register she says the national sex offenders register is a waste of money barbara castle in a patriarchal society such as ours gender-based violence is unlikely to be on the decrease um i have to hope that's not true from prop francis wilson the question of values takes us to the heart of the matter we have to start there given the fact that apartheid and for example the policies such as migrant labor that went with it was so totally immoral that there's little social consciousness of right and wrong where are the imams where are the rabbis where are the priests in this debate what effective steps are the churches the most synagogues taking to teach crash courses on values is that the kind of thing you you were speaking about advocate you know exactly and i think you know what the sad thing about you know most you know the spiritual you know the last the values issue which which yes it's you know it it actually lies also in you know it starts off with the family but of course all of the the religious institutions have a have a really important role to play in that but i think what what is becoming sad is that you know in with religions and i'm not all religions or most religions people are focusing on just doing you know sort of certain you know um you know there are certain practices that people just it's the values you know the philosophy behind the religions that are being lost you know so people think if i go to a mosque or go to a temple or i go to a church on a particular day of the week and i pray and i do all of that so we do all of those practices people have a lot of but we are forgetting about what are the values behind these practices and i think somehow it it's our schools and our institutions our universities have got to seriously think about changing the curricula in terms of what are we i mean if you think of of people in in society most people we are driven by you know the the amount of money we earn the cars we drive the houses we live in and all of those values you know we are not driven by values of respect for other people treating people well you know gratitude and so you know we really need to go back to inculcating those values then we will hopefully see that translating into us treating people better whether it's about women and sexual violence or just crimes in south africa in in general so you know i i you know it will be good i haven't you know joined from nicaragua we haven't spoken for years but it will be certainly good to catch up and to hear her views on this in terms of the training and you know sapps and there's ongoing training i don't have the details of the seps training but i know that there is ongoing training in the saps but it's still you know a lot a lot needs to be done and i think our forensic capabilities needs to be increased uh to be strengthened considerably uh because you know the forensic evidence is one of the most important um uh pieces of evidence in any trial so that that is hugely important the patriarchal society yes i i share your views feral i hope that that's not correct but i think it is a reality you know it is um a lot of some of the the you know the the uh violence against women are justified by custom and patriarchy and and you know as as mothers you know we have to really look at you know what role are we playing in bringing up our children with the right values to respect whether it's male or female um to respect each other you know so that patriarchal society has a ha has a major impact unfortunately um you know hopefully we'll be able to to do something about that in terms of engaging more you know with and we are there's even within our criminal justice uh cluster we are engaging with with certain you know community leaders to try to change this this type of attitude so a lot of work needs to go in that space so so you're going to enjoy this comment from laureen platsky who you may remember how many perpetrators of gbv that's gender-based violence think even of the justice system when they beat and kill women and children and hang them from trees that awful case we saw earlier this year this is about patriarchy power entitlement to women's bodies and minds often fueled by binge drinking rashni gajar in a country with the ratio of males to females is relatively balanced what systemic changes are needed to change the behavior to foster greater far greater gender parity um so polyphenol paul often the rest of you i do see your questions and we definitely will get to them but i thought those were interesting where do you stand on the alcohol ban in the country which has emptied out the trauma units but it's also such a key component of the gender-based violence that that so corrodes our country i think that's that's a really important issue i mean we we we have you know there's there's statistics that show that when we had uh the ban on alcohol the the gender-based violence uh drastically reduced and you know the as a as a as a society we have to look at in fact the national commissioner of police was just today in a meeting that we had earlier this morning uh talking about the fact that you know the the the what we found is a learning from the covet 19 is the connection between alcohol and domestic violence i think there's been you know research done on that people are aware of it but it was stuck in that we could see that numbers had come down but so you know with regard to you know there's a number of legislative changes i think we also need to look at in terms of how people get licenses to sell alcohol you know you have to buy alcohol from from outlets close to schools etc so i feel very strongly that there needs to be a lot more um enforcement or regulation in terms of alcohol licenses and in terms of how you know we can't be a nanny state you know so it's you know you people have you know you can't say okay we've got to ban alcohol so you know because you know we're not a nanny state people have rights you know and they entitle if people want to drink they're entitled to drink but how do you actually regulate so you know and then we kind of go around in circles because that then circles back to the fact that we deal again with the values and you know so the the alcohol the patriarchy and all of that and the lack of those values at an all feed into um you know exacerbating the the violence against women and children so i think alcohol we really need to think about not just legislation but other ways in which we can regulate um the sale and consumption and use of alcohol so that you know it we can minimize the impact on women and children thank you so from tabitha the economist does shamila trust the competency of the police police have been known to fluff cases and even hide files we know that what should be done to clean up the police the same question applies with regards to the hawks i know they're not your babies but that is from tabi they've been many many similar ones from beulah tambido not getting evidence is a saps failing can we not establish an alternative arresting authority through the disaster management act or any legislation that so lends itself and put them all on robin island or that's what she said earlier in an email christian but you get the you you get the drift of what people are asking quite a lot of yeah and you know yeah you know the steps the sepsis is one of our key partners in in in this fight against gender-based violence and you know it's it's they are serious challenges in the saps and and you know i i you know it's as i said you know we're partners we're working on this together but i agree that you know there needs to be more training we need to really look at you know the competency in not just the steps in in all criminal justice professionals as i said um looking at you know the you know corruption in these in these law enforcement entities looking at you know the lack of um you know sometimes there's you know lack of you know the understanding of of the social context the training would relate you know you gave an example earlier on when we started about a woman going to station getting a certain type of you know response and those are those are so important in their system to make sure that we have you know persons in right sepsis is the first line there's a number of victims that don't go to the tutuzela care centers that actually go to the to the saps and and we have to have that kind of mental understanding of of you know a whole lot of gendered issues um and you know relating to to gender-based violence and we've got to have the training and i i think our system does fail many many victims who who expect certain who need certain types of services when they go to the saps and even when they when they come to the courts if you have magistrates or or you know other criminal justice professionals who don't understand and you have the secondary victimization it's hugely problematic so you know we can certainly manage what's happening in the npa space and show in terms of making sure we have the skills we have the right attitude i was at the international criminal court when i was there i i was part of uh i led a team that developed the sexual and gender-based violence policy for the office of the prosecutor of the icc and and that in itself was you know so we are now looking um you know here in the npa to develop that kind of policy so that you know we understand not just about how we prosecute these cases but we understand how we engage with victims and then survivors of these crimes that everyone's understand the gender perspective what is a gender perspective what is the lens through which we see these issues so you know and having a gender perspective it it relates to you know it's important in so many different contexts not just in terms of how we we deal with victims or survivors or engage with victims of survivors of these crimes but in terms of you know how you deal with staff you know how you recruit and so it has you know a multifaceted um impact and so we're looking at developing this policy so that as you know certainly as the npa we have the right attitude we have the right skills in terms of dealing with this but other professionals in the criminal justice system i agree there's there's a lot of work that needs to be done a lot so i want to go back to something i say i think you said at one of the daily maverick gatherings and i have a question related to this which i ask with humility and respect so you said the reality is if you want to bring a good corruption case the average internationally in developed jurisdictions is that it takes between six and nine years it's not what we want to benchmark ourselves against but it is the reality now i want to ask you this one is do you think that you do make perfect the enemy of the good and many many questions coming through about low-hanging fruit which people believe you can pluck and so inculcate confidence in the system that corruption isn't going to ruin us it's not going to make the war on women worse than it is um do you think you could move a little bit faster you know i've often said you know i i you know these these cases i take a long time yes and i agree with everything you said about the low-hanging fruit about you know if if anyone doesn't think that you know we are acutely aware of that and that if these were just hanging there for the plucking we would take them because you know we've we you know i've come back to this country because this is our it's it's a calling it's what we want to do is to yes to get corruption and so this there's a number we are looking at you know a number of within you see the the investigating directorate that was set up is set up to deal with your high level corruption your state capture and can you imagine if the investigating director goes for the very low level cases people are going to say but you were you set up to do this but outside of the investigating directorate we're also dealing we have the sexual offenses sorry the um we have the our commercial crime um units in the npa and we are working with the hawks in that space in terms of trying to to address what people talk about low hanging fruit and so you know we've we've been working with general libia in in terms of looking at more at dealing with for example contraventions of the public service management act the municipal services the mfma and pfma looking at you know uh dealing with those um statutory offenses um looking at the less serious offenses so that we can you know i agree you know you need to get people out of the system and so whilst we are trying to put together these very complex uh corruption cases that that do take um you know they take time and and i'm going to talk a little bit about the challenges in that regard with the id in a minute we do we are looking at working we're not looking at we are working with saps to try to get together these other cases that can show the people that things are happening that the wheels of justice are turning and they haven't been there was the vbs um you know arrest there was a big arrest yesterday with the or temple but it related to organized crime a number of many num uh i think it was 17 saps police officers were arrested so there's a number of there's a number of things that are happening um to try to inculcate that confidence and i accept people are people are tired of this you know but we are really trying to go after the low hanging fruit and so hopefully in in the next couple of weeks there will be some you know more action you know and that is why you know people won't ask me why you know why am i not speaking more you know the media i'm talking today primarily because it's a it's a women's day issue but it is my philosophy that our actions must speak louder than our words and so it's so important what you're saying to get those smaller cases into the court whilst we in parallel to that look at building those those big cases i mean when people aren't that they're asking about the big cases and then there's a question i have to ask you because it's come up 20 times on the chat and then emailed about 10 times and i get why it's a vital one um so last week jacques paul reported that since august last year you've had this report on your desk drawn up by a crack team within your nba that has pointed alarming fingers and things that we've really known about um advocate noko who's now in the northwest and the advocate seller myemma who's also in the northwest shouldn't they have been part of your clear out your broom cleaning because you have brought in your own team who clearly are driving things and i wonder if you could tell us when you're going to work on that because for me that's treating the north west a little bit like ubuntu because it is a place of enormous corruption and misspending you've only got to read the auditor general's reports to see that so i wonder if you could take us into your confidence about that now fine i i sure i'm going to try to take you in into you know my confidence um firstly you know let me clarify that um advocate noko was the dpp in just on on the northwest issue and yet it seems like you know we are putting people there and you know you said it's being treated like ubuntu so people that have you know some kind of smoke around them or alleg allegations are put into the northwest so firstly advocate noko um requested a transfer to the northwest because as the dpp because of family and so that was why she was there was no reason not to move her there she was she would have been doing the work in in quesadilla now she was doing the work in the northwest as for advocate mayema and the media incorrectly reported that he was promoted he was not promote advocate mayama has has been a deputy dpp for a number of years he was a deputy dpp in the northwest and he was brought to pretoria to do certain certain work let me put it that way and when i decided that um you know i was going those uh prosecutors that were brought to the vgm head office to do certain cases when i decided that they needed to go back and i was dismantling that capability then advocate mama went back to the northwest which is his that decision that's where he's from he's been there for a number of years and so the media reports that he was promoted i mean that is completely incorrect because i've been covering her for years and years and not in ways that give me confidence as a south african so you know in that regard you know this is when i first took office you know um it was about understanding what was going in the on in the npa and then um you know they were and i'm going to you know this is about speaking about people that are still in the npa so i i know we've got to be fair yes exactly so so let me just say this much that we um both those uh against whom the allegations are level as well as the institution it's in the interests of all of us that there is a process that you know they can be cleared if they need to be cleared or if they have found to have acted improperly then there must be consequences and so there was um you know a lot of um consideration given to what exactly should that process be in terms of understanding what exactly happened now a number of these decisions that you hear about um like you know i the report that was publicized the one uh relating to the boysen matter where i overturned the decision of of to prosecute now these are the subject of the zondo commission inquiry and a lot of evidence is being led there about what exactly happened and so we have been trying to work with the commission if any any um process in the npa would have been a parallel process and there's no way you know you cannot look at incidents in isolation you've got to look at it in the broader context of what was going on and in order to do that it would mean that i wouldn't need to set up a mini zondo commission in the to to look at this when you have a commission where it has and i will never be able to get a fraction of those resources to do and unearth what the zondo commission is doing they have a stream that is called the law law enforcement um state capture state capture and law enforcement and you know this is where all of that is located and the commission has actually got to a point where they're analyzing all of that and so i'm you know before in fact even before this was jacques paul's um media report yes um i was we've had several engagements with the zondo commission in terms of how we could ensure that we get the the evidence that they have without having to go through the same process um and so i'm i'm in the process of writing to judge zondo to to in fact um try to fast track the findings with regard to the to the law enforcement stream you know i mean if we could get interim reports they would be great because you cannot deal with this in a peaceful manner and so the report of the zombie commission is hugely important but we can't wait for another year and this is what is really you know i'm really taking you into my confidence here we cannot wait another year to to address these matters and it has had a very negative impact both on the institution as well as people that are implicated because in fairness as i said when i started off either way it must be dealt with and put to bed and so you know i'm hoping that we would be able to to reach some agreement you know to to be able to get the findings of the commission well the change of the regulations last week aid you in in this way because i understand that it will or not really not for this particular purpose the change of the regulations will assist the investigating directorate in so far as accessing information etc uh with regard to you know certain certain cases so it will work there but in this particular case it's really about the commission has already collected a whole lot of evidence some are in the public domain but not all and then the process of analyzing that now and making submissions etc and that is you know we really need uh the findings very very quickly so that these matters can be addressed we've got lovely questions i'm just going to try and do a few in the like one minute we have we have five minutes hasn't the zondo commission done a huge amount of work needed to bring about prosecutions you've begun to answer that surely this should allow you to go after the high hanging fruit most of whom are obvious to us my own question is one of the things i was really impressed with i mean i made a list of all the things that have happened the global magnitsky law now applicable to the gupta family regiment's capital you've really taken uh a billion ran in frozen assets quite huge the anc mp and former state security minister bongani bongo case charges laid against them also against the eff president julius malema and his deputy and that's related to the just discharge of the rifle so it's not as if nothing's happened um but i guess is how do you think we'll ever get the the big names um the guptas the former president perhaps what about those big names are those really difficult to do i'm i'm you know i don't get involved in names because we don't target people you know and i think it's unfair but we we will go wherever the evidence takes us and i feel confident that if the investigating directorate is properly resourced that has been a major stumbling block because you know just the legal framework which is based on a secondment model yes um is just not working because they they you know it's based on a model where other entities in government are meant to give them the directorate resources to do this work so that has been one of and the forensic capabilities the the challenges with forensic evidence the skills that has been a major stumbling block with the id but i feel very confident that with the recent amendment to the to the zonder commission regulations as well as the the recent indications that have emerged from from the the anc nec meeting a cabinet statement that was made about the need to actually have a more robust response to dealing with corruption i feel very confident if the necessary resource and i feel confident now that there seems to be a bit of a change of the mood in terms of how we deal there's there's more of an urgency i feel very confident that things are going to change and that the id the national mood is is is the national mood is is almost um it feels like it could explode any day and i i guess that's why there's all these questions to you so the last one i did want to ask you and i hope you can answer is a very interesting article in the sunday times today which indicates that there's a big debate in the anc about whether or not we should go ahead with the party resolution to um to to extract ourselves or to not be signatories to the icc any longer do you have a view on that yes i have a i have very strong view i think you know it it will be a sad day if south africa withdraws from from the international criminal court south africa is was a strong supporter in setting up the court we've had a very strong history of support for human rights and so to withdraw from the court which is not a perfect entity but it's the only one we have will show that that these issues of human rights these issues of crimes against humanity genocide war crimes and holding people responsible for that is not important to our country and and that will be a sad day for us so i think we need to work within the rome statute system it's not a perfect system but south africa needs to actually uh become more vocal and robust in trying to strengthen the system and improve it and it does need uh strengthening it needs improvement and so i certainly hope that south africa will never withdraw but that we will support the international criminal justice project and try to ensure that we can we can strengthen it in a way that makes it more effective thank you very much for your clarity lots of people offering their services to you i'm sure that's not new um can they how do they i'm looking at the donor i just very quickly on that you know we've had lots of support and you know we we've uh particularly in dealing with corruption and one of the issues has been you know we were asked in parliament etc where you know people we want to avoid any kind of of um perception that the npa is now captured and we are now you know so uh receiving fundings that that may be an assistance that may have created objectives so we are setting up a donor oversight mechanism donations as we've always said is not new we've had a lot of donations for you know all of government accepts donations but we're setting up an oversight mechanism because we really do want to to to actually uh accept many of these offers of assistance particularly when it comes to assisting and dealing with with corruption so hopefully there will be um a lot more you know people will see that we we are moving in that direction but once we've set up this mechanism to to protect us against any possible attacks in that regard thank you so i wanted to thank you very much for being a good sport taking all the questions and especially for especially for doing this women's day webinar after what sounds to have been a punishingly busy day for you thank you very much advocate victoria i hope you enjoy a nice cup of tea all in a day this is what we're here for thank you very much so much bye-bye thank you to everybody for joining us and to the conrad adenauer foundation for sponsoring this webinar have a good evening