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thank you evan for joining this call um talking about um rights retention and how exploring how the plan s strategy could apply globally and you'll find out lots more about the cabanas strategy i will not be trying to explain this fully we have sally ramsey and johan ruarik from coalition s who will be able to talk more and explain what's going on simply to say that this is a really fascinating a really exciting area of development of open access at the moment that crosses over in a really exciting way with how we can make sure that the people who are doing the research the people who are writing are actually empowered as well and so without further ado um i'm going to hand over to johann warwick and sally ramsey your honor from coalition s is going to run uh this session i would note as said we are going to be recording the event so it will be possible to list list back afterwards you should see in the at the bottom of your screen about a questions and answers button so please do use that to ask your own questions straight after johan and sally we're very pleased to be welcoming diana chan uh yes our tonta and ramesh gao who will be our lead uh respondents so with that i'm just going to hand over straight away to your hand so we can get right into the substance so johan over to you okay allow me to share my screen okay here we go so um i will be driving the slides even when sally and neha are talking so yeah today we would like to introduce the the rights retention strategy of coalition s because it is a strategy um that we have developed that does not just apply to coalition s funders but it could also be adopted by individual researchers and by universities and that's why we're trying to get that message out [Music] so let me briefly introduce myself i'm the executive director of coalition s sally ramsey works at azisk but also is working for coalition ssd uh our open access expert and nia vias is working at a welcome trust associate and legal council for whom is this seminar intended well for organizations related to higher education research staff in libraries and staff assisting researchers in any capacity uh librarians research office staff and senior research support staff who who determine policy um our agenda for today will be uh an overview of the banners rights with national strategy what does it do how does it work then sally will present briefly about the rights retention strategy resources that we have namely resources that we put at disposal of the community to explain this to their staff how it works and then there will be some time for questions and answers um just for completeness sake and as a disclaimer if there's any discrepancy between information presented here and the coalition as website the website takes takes precedence just in case we inadvertently say things that that are not in line with what is on the website um what are our key objectives as coalition as you as you know we have developed planners which wants immediate and full open access to research results that are supported in partnering home by uh our research funding and um to ensure that the coalitionist organization want to ensure that their research the research results publications resulting from their research are made open access with the cc violent body licensed and accessible through a repository as a very minimum and we also of course allow for gold open access or open access under transformative agreements but if that is not possible um the least the the very least condition that we are imposing on on our authors is that their article should be available in a repository with the ccbi license now this is to ensure that the funded researchers have access to all possible uh journals and as wide variety of journals as possible namely also subscription journals and even hybrid journals that who did not have not yet developed a transformative arrangement and we want with the rights retention strategy to make sure that authors retain sufficient rights to be able to use and reuse their their work as their tools as they choose as our chair uh mark shields always says the manuscript is something that belongs to the researcher even after peer review it is something that belongs to the researcher it's not something that should be owned by a publisher and to encourage subscription publishers to consider developing transformative arrangements we have we have developed this strategy as well namely by adopting device retention strategy this will hopefully encourage publishers to move away from the subscription model and to move towards an open access model whether that be by transformative agreements or by transformative journals but we want we definitely want to provide an incentive to move away from the subscription model um at this from the outset we would like to stress that this coalition as funded we have a clear preference for the version of record for an open access version of record for which we pay wherever that is possible so we do want to pay for the version of record when that is possible except when that is in hybrid open access journal so we definitely want uh all journals to move over to a full open access model and so the am will only need to be made open access when there is no plan as aligned way to make the version of record open access so basically what we're telling publishers is make sure that all of your journals move to a complete open access model and then we will pay for the version of record if you are not willing to do that if you want to remain in hybrid under a hybrid model or under a subscription model then we will ask our authors to make the aam the author accepted manuscript available in a repository because that's for us the only way to make sure that our publications are made available in open access you can keep the version that is behind the payroll that is fine with us and in in that sense the am has been paid for but we will keep we will make sure that our authors retain the rights on the author accepted manuscript so we encourage institutional repositories to hold a copy of that work either the vor or the am to assist with preservation as well so the minimum requirement what is the problem that we are seeking to solve the minimum requirement for us is clearly that the author accepted manuscript should be in a repository with zero embargo and a cc by license so that is accessible for everyone to read that is the minimum requirement we make this an obligation through the coalition's organization grants agreement so as of the 1st of january a number of our organizations and some of the organizations will implement this a little bit later but all of our organizations take as part of their coalition as grant agreements they make it an obligation for authors to make the at least the am available in a repository now at the same time we realize full well of course that many researchers will sign a publishing agreement that gives away their rights to the public the amenity repository with ccbi and with the cc by license and zero embargo authors are required by publishers to sign a copyright transfer agreement and thereby very often lose their rights lose any rights to the manuscript that they have themselves written and that they have intellectual rights to be in our opinion so this means that there is a contradiction between the researchers grant agreement on the one hand and the publishing agreement with the publishers on the other so basically researchers are between a rock and a hard place between the rock of so to speak of their research and grant agreement and the hard place of the publishing agreement which requires them to hand over their rights now we ask them to preserve their rights they are asked by the publishers to hand over their rights what the rights retention strategy is trying to do is aiming to do is to resolve this contradiction and i will tell you how in a minute so i don't know what happened there so basically we have a three-step model for delivering this uh we will update our grant conditions uh the grant conditions of all coalition of thunders are being updated as we speak and have or have been updated as of the 1st of january we have notified the publishers of these changes we will notify the publishers that all publications by coalition as funders now come automatically with a cc by license and and we also require beneficiaries in order to make this strategy multiplied we will require beneficiaries so grant holders to the to include details of the public license so basically every author has to say their publisher be aware of the fact that the manuscript that i am submitting to you already carries a cc by license upon submission so because my grant conditions require this so the publisher has to be informed the publisher is informed in two ways both by the by the uh granting organization the funder coalition s funder on the one hand and by the individual author because of course the publisher cannot know which author is funded by which uh which which funder is funding the the author authors that is not always clear so we will change the these grant conditions so that the beneficiaries apply a public copyright license to all their future uh author accepted manuscripts so that becomes a contractual obligation and the for the authors will have to specify this public copyright license that has been applied as well as the source of their funding so that and then finally they uh we mandate or the coalition has found those mandates that these manuscripts be made available at the time of publication in an open access repository of their choice so that's the that's the first step the second step is something that we did over the summer of 2020 namely we contacted the publishers who publish about 95 of research uh attributed to the coalition this organization and we organize webinars and we talk to publisher trade bodies i think we talked to about a hundred uh publishers over over the summer in various webinars uh to win to inform them of these changes and we also invited the publishers to respond how they will ch how they will react to uh uh author accepted manuscripts that our license cc by or how they will react to submissions that carry that language that carry the language saying look publisher be aware my my uh my article already carries a cc by license in accordance with my grant agreements we have we asked publishers this to be able to incorporate that information in the journal checker tool that we are developing and that i will talk to you about in a minute and then the step three is that we provide our researchers with templated language that they can include either in the missing letter or in the acknowledgement section but it should be in the submission ideally uh templated language of the following source this research was funded in order employed by organization name uh plea please publisher be aware that the cc by license already applies to to to this to this article uh for instance uh let's let's look at the way welcome does this welcome is one of the coalition s organizations who is applying this policy to all of their grants as the 1st of january they require i mean since they do a very specific type of research and they found a very specific type of research they ask that all original research supported by the grant must be made available in one repository namely europe pubmed central they also still tell researchers that they grant a cc by public copyright license to all future aems and they must ensure that that license is granted and they have to include all authors have to include the following language in in in their submissions so that gives you a very good idea of what welcome requires of authors to do uh in the in in the future uh as of as the 1st of january now of course we have to make it easy for researchers one of the things that we know of course is that we want to that there are various ways with planners to get to open access on the one hand there is gold open access where the author pays or the grants the granting organization pays for open access there's other other journals that are under a transformative agreement and then there are the hybrid open access journals and the subscription journals that require um authors to deposit the version and the am of the article in a repository how is an author to know what applies to each journal and we want our of course our grant holders to be able to identify how their journal of choice the journal they want to publish in aligns with the plan as a plan s policy and that's why we have developed a journal checker tool um in collaboration with cottage labs and in in partnership with antlief um um there's an image missing here i don't know what's happening but it's a it's a combination basically that allows um the author to find out by typing in their grant the granting organization typing in there then the the name of the journal the the granting organization and their university that combination yields a result telling them what they have to do now for instance if the journal is under transformative agreement uh because they work at a university that has signed transformative agreement then the author is informed that that that article is subject to the transformative agreement and that they don't need to do anything else because the article will automatically be published in open access however if the article if the journal of choice of the author is a hybrid journal or a subscription journal then they will be told to uh deposit a copy of the am in in a repository first iteration of that journal checker tool is available since november 2020. you can check it out i'll give you a link at the end of this presentation now what do authors need to do i think that is that is very simple they only have to inform the publisher that the am resulting from their submission carried that cc by copyright license in their submission uh letter using what we call the magic language to inform the the author that is all they need to do and on publication they need to deposit the am in the repository so two things included in the submission and deposit the am in a repository and now we'll pass the floor to sally to tell us about the the the the resources again here there are some images missing and i i don't really know why never mind never mind um thank you johan um we've made a few uh resources available for the community to use and to make it easier for you um so that you've got to hand just the summary of what the planet is about and i'm not planning sorry the rights retention strategy is about and so that you can explain it easily directly to researchers i mean generally we think that researchers don't need to know all the all the deep details of how this is and why it works they just really need to know what they need to do and why so what we've done is as well as the infographic that um we had before that's available to give a sort of overview but then there is a handout which can be freely reproduced and distributed and you can add your organizational details to that there's a version that way you can do that and you can give that out if you've got say training sessions or or if you're just uh have an interested researcher or just want to publicize the rights retention strategy more then if um it's useful there are some slides there are two um sets of slides one is just a single slide i mean i know from experience when you're invited to a university committee to talk about something like the rights retention strategy you're often given like two minutes at the end of the the meeting when you have to skate over things very quickly and a single slide and gives just a summary of the rights retention strategy so that you can and quickly fill in the details for people and then there's a more fulsome five slide deck and that has more details on there i should also mention that um we've published some practical advice about the technical requirements for repositories so you may have seen the technical crime requirements for repositories in plan s there's a bit more detail now on the plan s website and they should help institutions with the implementation of their repositories and how they can meet the plan s requirements and many of the requirements really are sort of standard aspirations for repositories things like and persistent identifiers that's on the coalition s website along with these resources that you can have and just a bit of extra publicity and if you're interested in repositories there is currently um i've written a a series of blogs on repositories uh part two was just published yesterday and that's again on the coalition s website under the soap box uh which is the coalition s blog so please do have a read of that if you're interested in repositories and at this point i'll hand over to neja thank you and i apologize in advance for any background noise i've got some building work going on so i'm i'll battle with my um volume um over that um so under uk copyright law and indeed a lot of other jurisdictions it's clear that an assignee or an exclusive licensee for example the publisher um will take the assignment or exclusive license that they get from an author a researcher subject to any prior licenses that the author has entered into and has given them notice of so the um when the researcher accepts funding from a coalitionist funder and agrees to the grant conditions that um stipulate exactly what johann has outlined um they agree that they will make the author accepted manuscript available on a under a public copyright license um so when by the time they enter into a publishing agreement with the publisher atelier stage um they've already give they have to give them notice by inserting the magic language that we've mentioned um and so that prior license they've um agreed to with the publish with the um funders under the funders grant conditions will trump any of the any conflicting language that might be inserted into the publishing agreement um and so is the initial submission itself also covered by the cc by license no but the author the researcher should make sure that they give notice to the publisher that the um author accepted manuscript has been licensed under a public copyright license for cc by license um or for example a non-derivative license cc by nd we um were thinking about a situation where there might be a disagreement with the publisher and because of that um a publisher may issue a takedown notice to a repository so what the coalition s has decided to do in order to handle this is that repository managers can direct any request for takedown for any item that falls under a coalition s funder this is not just for any any item in their repositories it's just for those which are funded by coalition s funders they can then turn to their funder and say that they've had um a takedown request from a publisher the funder will then investigate and check out whether there was prior notice given to that publisher and they will ascertain whether the takedown notice should be refuted or adhered to they will advise the repository and then the repository can act accordingly um authors it should be should be stressed authors would not be expected to do the investigation so hopefully that will make it a lot easier for everybody involved and yes there's further information of course on our website the you have these um i'll make sure that you get a proper pdf with all pictures included because something went wrong with my presentation today uh apologize for that it's very important i think in conclusion to stress that the way the rights retention strategy works is as nia already said it is by by priority namely the fact that uh an author or an institution or a thunder has already told has already claimed cc by on the publication upon submission that works as a prior contract so to speak of which you inform them the publisher and then the publisher cannot uh or the the contract that is then entered with the publisher about the copyright is then null and void with respect to that previous copyright it it's basically the idea is basically that the ccbi license that is applied to the manuscript upon submission takes precedent over any later copyright agreement that is that that is signed any later copyright agreement even if it is signed by the author is not a void uh of course we prefer to avoid that but it's basic rights retention strategy really works my by my legal precedence of the of the license that's the essence i believe and you can contact us of course individually on these on these addresses and i'll stop sharing now and open the paper for questions and answers so thank you very much johan sally nah and sorry neiha for not introducing you at the beginning so we're very happy to have three lead respondents here who will lead off with questions and i'll introduce them shortly i've already seen that two questions have come up in the q and a box and so johan sally neher please of course do take a look and be ready to to answer um hopefully you can find them um what then so first of all i'd like to turn to to professor yasser tonter from the department of information management of hasa tepe university in ankara in turkey so professor tonter would you like to go first in sharing initial responses and any questions you have uh thank you stephen uh thank you johan silly and me as well for this presentations um of course it's very important to increase the percentage of open access articles be it through green open access or gold open access and it appears that with the plan s if everything goes all right the percentage will increase an additional 10 percent within the overall papers published or indexed by the web of science at least um i when the minimum requirements are mentioned by johann um uh states that um aam should be deposited in uh in a repository with zero embargo and cc by license i can't help but think that uh green open access could actually already um achieve this even not during the publication at the time of publication but whenever the paper is published i'm sorry is accepted by the referees so i'm wondering what i'm missing here in terms of plan s or coalition s funders um heading to that yeah can i i'll gladly answer that what i think well i think it is true like you said that it is possible to deposit the article uh on um on a repository once it is accepted by the referees the trouble is that most of the time uh publishers will impose an embargo period on such a deposit for six months or 12 months and that is what we want to avoid and by doing this by by having this strategy we have we avoid that and we allow for deposit in a repository immediately on complication but sadly you want to do that yeah i just come in there i think and professor tonto if i understand you correctly and we've said that it should be deposited in a repository at publication and that's what that's what plan s requires now then and i've been a repository manager and i know it's much easier actually if if people do actually put it in and it's made available at um acceptance and in them the uk certainly that's what we've been doing because of a requirement from a government refunder requirement here that we've had so yes some publishers already say i think the royal society is one of them they already say that you can make your um your your accepted manuscript freely available from acceptance i think that's what you were you were saying wasn't it and certainly with the rights retention strategy that that would stand i think now might might contradict me here but it means that that paper has got no embargoes on it and it's cc by at that point and so an author could um deposit it at acceptance and make it available prior to publication now sometimes um they might and and i don't know how this will come in play out but and if there's a sort of press embargo or something on things that might have a bit of an effect on it but if i understand you correctly what you're saying is making it um available at acceptance and from a repository perspective what um we would probably want people to do in practice is deposit at acceptance because that's when there's a touch point with the author and something's happening the author often forgets at publication or they don't know when the actual date when it's been published and then and make it available as soon as possible but the plan s requirement is that it's made available from public the date of publication so that's all that's required to to meet your your funders um uh rules as it were thank you um if i may continue um i think um it seems to me that plan is uh plan s is still a little bit gold open access centric so to speak and when we look at the percentage wise we are talking about basically the coalition is members and uh half of the papers actually um plan is complying papers coming from the european union i'm wondering when i saw stephen's title uh planets could apply globally especially when i think of from you know the big players like usa or china or india when do you think the critical point will be reached in terms of planets compliant papers being populated within a web of science or indexed platforms or institutional repositories or whatever do you have any sort of um plan b beyond uh 2024 for instance if things don't go as these are messaged by the planners when it comes to um you know reaching the um percentage by publishers uh to call them open access journals what happens for instance when the uh publishers do not agree to um sort of make their publications uh open access at the end of 2024 and still they are not in the 75 percent level when it comes to the um open access journals uh open access papers published in their journals thank you yes well there's there's various things we can do we don't have a plan b uh completely ready but in any case we we are trying to make um publishers transition to to full open access by our transformative journal framework and by other frameworks that they are they are responding to that as you can see uh you know spring in nature and elsevier have already agreed to the transformative journals framework so we and that means that they commit to trans transitioning those channels within a limited number of years to to to full to full open access um critical points i i don't think we have a critical point in in mind it really uh depends also a lot on on how uh quickly uh publishers indeed will be adopting our policies it also depends a lot on think on the pressure that the the scientific community can exert and one of the ways of exerting pressure is by using the rights retention strategy the right retention strategy certainly not gold oriented right i mean basically claims back the rights on the publication to for the authors it basically says authors you have a right to that publication even after peer review publishers of course needless to say do not agree with that perspective what we are clearly trying to tell them is look if you make these papers if you make your journal available in a way that we can pay we will we will pay for the version of record and otherwise the article will appear in a repository as as the am which is still in possession in the possession of the authors so we hope very much that many um many organizations and authors outside of coalition has will adopt this rights retention strategy which in itself is is really not gold-oriented uh at all we are also looking into i mean i do understand the concerns about gold and about transformative agreements and we are uh looking this year we will be looking into alternative ways of uh paying for the for academic publishing because uh like you said i mean it's it's academic publishing as it stands now and gold open access is is very expensive and certainly not um equitable in uh in the sense that it treats rich and poor countries alike i mean whether you whether you are work in turkey uh or in india or in norway you basically pay the same apc for uh for an article that is very strange because i mean many of very few products work that way you know playing tickets uh coca-cola bottles i mean have a differential price depending on on on where you consume the product for an apc that's it's the same price for everyone that's that's very strange and there there are uh other ways and that have been tried already of of of that and that are more equitable to pay for academic publishing i mean we are in a full transition i mean many different models are being are being uh tried out uh for this we're also looking into diamond journals how we can support diamond journals where authors do not pay so this entire system is in transition and you have to you have to give some time for it to to to settle again so it's very hard to say or to predict beforehand uh when there will be a complete tipping point that that we can all uh live with and then go to the beach and do nothing but yeah we try to what we try to do at coalition is is very much to try to use various integrated policies on the one hand we're telling publishers yes we will pay for gold open access one way or another transformative agreements are differently we will try to get the prices down on the other hand we are trying to write retention strategy we are trying to support diamond open access journals all these pub strategies we try to integrate johan can i just come in there as well and i think it's also it's notable as i've said in the blog that there are three routes to to open access that are compliant with with um the plan s uh well two main routes both the gold route but also the green route it is compliant and so therefore just being mindful that there are other preferences around the world you know maybe um the majority of of coalition s funders do prefer that there's a flip to goal but there are other countries in the world that have different directions and so that that having that green route there does allow for different preferences of you know which which way people want to go so i think it's it's sort of recognizing that and making sure that it's not cutting off one of the routes to open access as well so looking as we've got two more lead respondents to go so i'd very much like now to turn to professor ramesh sigao who's professor and dean at the indira gandhi national center for the arts in india so professor gao your your initial reactions on the rights retention strategy uh thank you stephen thanks john uh sally neha for wonderful presentations uh before coming to write a retention strategy i have a little different questions i don't know how to learn relevant it see initially in india sometime last year there was some discussion among academics and policy maker to adopt planets but after some time of it it turned into different direction now there are some discussion to adopt uh one nation one subscription model so that one nation one subscription model is also not finalized it is under discussion so i just need to understand uh from all of you do you see any any connection uh between this uh this discussion uh like we have while discussing this one nation one subscription model do you think india can think of adopting some of the you know the strategy what you have discussed so it's because i will be i will be participating in some conclave next uh next week so if you can give me some some uh ideas so then then i can further uh forward yes i i read um i i read part of this um document that that was recently released for india the stip i believe it's called or something like that science and technology policy innovation yes indeed and one of the things that struck me there is that the the idea is indeed that all articles will be deposited in the public repository right and that it says that it says that very explicitly but what struck me there is that that strategy is not legally backed up i mean what the advantage and i also wrote this to to the minister to vijay regiment uh i said look i mean one of the things that we think is strong in our rights retention policy is that this rights retention policy legally backs up the deposit in a in a repository in the sense that it um it requires no uh embargo right it can the deposit can be immediate because you claim uh as a researcher you claim that that that ccbi license that prior license on the article exists uh which which prevents copyright transfer agreement a copyright transfer to the publisher of course and automatically allows you to deposit the article in uh in a repository so my recommendation would be for india to adopt this as well in the sdip namely the that some version of the rights retention strategy would be incorporated in this plan to make sure that all articles will be deposited in a repository that would be my recommendation and and that would be sort of pl that would be sort of coalition s root wouldn't it as well well it would enhance i mean this is the strategy that you're adopting you're adopting the strategy of depositing articles in a repository what we are suggesting is to to reinforce that legally by the by the strategy that we have developed and that should be applicable as well in in india because basically the rights retention the way it works is basically by saying look there is a prior contract here that the publisher there is a prior contract here between the thunder and the and uh and the author that you need to respect or the or there is a prior license here that is claimed by the author as an individual the author claims this ccbi license on their article and you have to respect that any later agreement that you want to impose on top of that is null and void because of this prior license that's the idea it's it's very basically an idea of priority i mean i took me some time to understand this as well i'm talking to neha and then and basically the idea is it's like you when you rent when you when you have any contract with for renting a house for instance right you cannot rent out a house that has already been rented out you know there is a prior contract there that you have to respect absolutely so i what i understand that it is to adopt this tension strategies you don't require to adopt the planners it is independent of life exactly it is independent of planets you don't do not have to uh the planet the the nice thing i think about planets is that there are bits and pieces that you can use i mean we we don't demand everybody to join us you know i mean it's not you know one party rule or anything uh basically what we are looking for is not for everybody in the world to adhere to plan us but to adopt the policies that we've developed one of the great things i think about planets is that we have all these specialist experts from around the world from all these organizations that join and together of course they have many more ideas than you could have on your own in in any national in any national agreement so we think about these policies and then we jointly move further and then we propose them and anyone who wants to adopt them can adopt them but i mean you do not necessarily have to join planets in order to take advantage of them of course we would very much prefer for india to join planets that is that is clear but uh nothing prevents you from adopting the policies some of the policies that we have developed developed while leaving behind leaving aside others yeah so another question which i have in mind like you talked about am am like we have several institutional repository uh based on this uh copyright permission available on this romeo so uh how how this am model is different from uh like existing uh where some publisher have allowed uh uploading pre-printing and institutional repository and uh in case uh like what are the important guide guidelines or important points uh you would like to suggest for libraries to uh create those institutional repository following this a.m that's a question for sally i believe yeah um that the problem with institutional repository deposit has been that there have been conflicting um policies so an author would deposit in the repository and you might have a policy that's been imposed by the publisher that says such and such an embargo you might have a different policy that was imposed by the funder and then you might even have another a third policy which is different again which might be the institution or or the government or something like that and you know your poor repository person is sitting there thinking what earth do i do and you have to go for the you know the one that you you can fulfill that doesn't break any of them and what this rights retention strategy does it sort of cuts through all of that and says hang on a minute let's just forget this you know the um the item can be made freely available immediately and it doesn't matter what all these other um rules are that's what we're doing the author's taking back that control really of their own work and making it freely available at acceptance so your accepted manuscript it doesn't apply as ney has said in on her slide it doesn't apply to previous versions just the accepted manuscript does that answer the question i'm happy to yeah but uh for adopting this right attendance strategy do you need any changes in the existing uh copyright laws or what kind of policy decisions policy uh guidelines need to be uh put in place uh at the level of uh government or or institutions or individuals like just just do now go ahead yes um i mean i was just going to say i in terms of indian copyright law i'm not an expert on indian copyright law but certainly in the uk and a lot of other jurisdictions um it's clear that we don't need to change copyright law to be able to make the rights retention strategy work there's already a mechanism in place that allows the prior cc by license to take precedent precedence over an agreement that they're a later agreement that they enter into with the publisher so there's not necessarily any changes that are required to um make that make that happen obviously that depends on the individual laws in every single jurisdiction which i'm not familiar with um but yeah if there's a jurisdiction that doesn't allow that then obviously changes would be required there i i know we have a time limitation in this uh i i request you that i see similar kind of discussion on this one nation one subscription and other open access modern india i was very keen to organize a separate baminar focusing on indian situations and implementation so i may be requesting and traveling you for uh more time for that particular webinar with those words i thanks kripan and thank you all for very clearly uh giving answers and making me more knowledgeable on this subject thank you very much thank you i i can see that the chair of our section on academic and research libraries is in the audience so i hope that the request i'm sure is noted um so finally and with particular thanks i wanted to welcome diana tran our last lead respondent and she's the director of library services at the hong kong university of science and technology as well as being chair of the july consortial committee in hong kong i wanted to thank her because she's made herself available at very short notice to join us so diana over to you your your response is reaction sure thank you uh thank you johan salian also naha uh for giving us those are very valuable information i think you know the retaining the right retaining uh the retaining the right strategy is a very smart one because i guess in the past uh if we relied on the resurgence to fight with the publisher to retain their copyright and not to transfer their rights to the publisher it's a it's a hot battle it's our uphill battle many researchers won't do that they just accept whatever the publishers ask them to do so i think this is a very smart uh strategy that a coalition has has taken onto yourself to do it but i i would like to know that um as you have you said in the past uh six months or or so you have contacted more than 100 publishers on on this so from now what is uh the response from the publisher do you see that there is a push back from the publisher or do you find that most of them are uh pretty compliant to what uh coalition asked them to do uh that's an excellent question uh we can't really say that publishers have been compliant i mean we received on uh the very last date that the reactions were due we received a number of letters of them saying that they declined to answer which is of course not something that we can that you can work with for the journal journal checker tool and so when we insisted when we inquired a bit more they said that they would not uh they they never said that they would refuse articles that came with the language so none of the publishers that we contacted have explicitly contacted us to say look we will refuse any article that comes with the magic language with the rights retention strategy language which is good enough for us right because as soon of course as they accept that paper they recognize the cc by license claimed by the author and then they have to tweet that article further on also don't forget that if they want to have access if they want to be paid for the version of record then they have to accept that article right they won't know beforehand whether the author will pay or will not pay for that version of record in a transformative journal for instance but but yes there have been there have been some back and forth between publishers and ourselves publishers did not like this strategy at all i mean they basically said well one of the things that they often said was well who is going to pay for that you want access to the am but who is going to pay for that we invest a lot in peer review forgetting of course that peer review is often done by the researchers themselves so i wonder where the investment is but okay let's let's grab that and then we said in response actually sally came up and that answer is well in fact this article will appear behind the paywall will be bill and will in fact be covered by the subscription price that you are already charging so the price is already covered right i mean you are afraid that it will be that it will be deposited in a repository but as sally has also pointed out in one of her blogs in fact publishers should welcome this move of the article being available in a repository because it is already it it provides some publicity the one of the things they could do for instance publishers could do is to require the am to make reference to the vor and the vor of course is a is a version that is much more complete and that that also authors want to be able to refer to so uh there's there's definitely reasons to distinguish the aam from from from the vor um that that that that we think are uh are important even for publishers even though they don't see that this way uh for now but sally you wanted to you may want to add something to what i said um i i don't think i do really i mean it's i think it's um you know there are there are as i've said in the blog there are lots of benefits of using repositories and um the in addition to the version of record and one of the things i've said to sort of try before you buy we know that a lot of people want to access a lot of works you know in order to to to do their research and if they haven't got access to everything that can that can make a very hefty bill for somebody you know if they're trying to pay for everything so it's a question if somebody can come to a repository they can see um they can read the article and say oh yeah that that's exactly what i want and they they're then more willing and then they can also see whether it's worth for them to pay for it to to pay for their all right to have access to to have access to the subscription side and and johanna's already sort of hinted at this but every repository that well i'm pretty sure every repository i'm aware of anyway we'll put in that doi link to the version of record and you can see from the out links from repositories that's where people go they a lot of people do their research via google these days you know so yeah let me ask one more question uh uh what about book chapters and books um does the plan ask also cover them as well this is strategy we do not have a policy yet on uh open access book and book chapters but we will develop one in the second half of the year um we are now looking into that we have to set it up um my my my hunch about book chapters is that they will be treated as as articles mainly but something very that is relatively easy to do you can pay for the book chapter in individually that's one of the ways uh forward for books themselves for monographs it's going to be a little bit harder i think and because they're um you have to take into account um the various countries and various traditions because books are very often published in local in the local languages of the various funders they're also more important in certain areas of science than in others especially in social sciences and humanities books they play a much larger role than in um i mean stem subjects so we'll have to develop a policy that that that is generally enough but leaves a lot of leeway to individual countries as well but we will develop something this year yes thank you johan thank you very much so i realize we're coming up to time now and obviously i wanted to just basically say thank you on behalf of victor headquarters to johann de sally to nayha for explaining so clearly and what's going on for the the right to attention strategy and for sharing links and of course in particular to yasar to ramesh and to diana for leading the conversation asking such good questions what i wanted to do now actually is pass the floor to gulchin crib who is the chair of our academic and research library section and who has played such an important role in allowing these webinars to happen so gulchin over to you thank you stephen uh greetings from australia um is the chair of academic and research libraries section of ifla i'm delighted that stephen was able to organize this this webinar series this is the first of three of course and we're going to have two more next week um and i was just delighted i i just loved the exchange of ideas and information and knowledge and i'm particularly grateful to coalition s johann and sally and niha thank you very much for your generous sharing and also i want to thank you professor yashar tonta from tepe university uh and and of course i know yesha from way back and professor ramesh gar who is a member of academic and research libraries section and diana she's a colleague from when i was in singapore so thank you so much and and thanks steven it's been a fantastic session and i'm so glad that it's been recorded so people who couldn't attend to today's well it's tonight it's nine o'clock in in where i am in australia and that they can go back because it's incredibly useful thank you very much and good night from byron bay thank you very much and with that thank you to everyone um i've put in the chat we have next webinars both on the 18th of january one at 12 pm cet1 at 6 pm ce t i apologize those times what's less good for asia oceania we've tried with the times to find moments that will discriminate as little as possible according to where people are in the world because we know that's always an issue so with that just thank you once again uh thank you to all of our our speakers to our lead respondents and we'll get the recording up on the website as soon as we can thank you very much thank you very much thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you it was nice to meet all of you virtually stay safe thank you