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this is robert kraft and i'm your host on snn network and joining me today is neil sweeney he is the founder and ceo of kili limited it's a publicly traded company i got two symbols for you m-y-i-d on the tsx venture and m-y-i-d-f in the u.s neil thank you for joining me today how you doing i'm great love to be glad i'm glad i'm here glad we can chat a little bit about kelly and the micro cat market same here same here all right well let's dig right in you know um this is our first time doing an interview together so usually for each one i'd love to start off with an overview and history of the company and how you got to where you're at today and then we'll go from there yeah sure so um kili actually was a product that was incubated inside of my last startup which is a company called freckle there tends to be a bit of a trend with me freckle was actually incubated in my other startup which is a company called juice and so um i have a bit of a history of incubating technology commercializing and then moving it into sort of larger companies um keeley though as a pure play where we change the symbol etc that's um that happened about kind of 90 days ago and so we as a company are entirely focused on consumer data and privacy where when we look at the larger multi-billion dollar global data market there really is no consumer inclusion so what we've set out to do is to create uh an ecosystem and tools for consumers to allow them to take back control of their data have transparency on who's using it and be compensated accordingly which considering we're in the middle of coronavirus and we have 10 to 12 unemployment and there's 20 million people in the united states out of work this redistribution of wealth we think is a larger kind of macro social uh theme that is gaining steam i couldn't agree more i mean this is something that you know i've interviewed a few companies that are really starting to work in this kind of user data space you know where we're really starting to take action there i mean what would you say makes killi and and some of your technology more you're developing unique and different compared to some of your peers out there well for one we're a pure play so this is the only thing we focus on um so there so you know i couldn't i couldn't say that kind of six or seven months ago um but we made the decision that this is a big enough um market that we felt like we needed to put all of our eggs in that basket i think if you look at other comparables they either have two or three other different kind of portfolios or products inside of their businesses we're international in scope we do not pay people in things like crypto nor do we pay them in coupons or tokens we pay them in what people use every day and that's cash and i think probably the other big differentiator is sort of twofold one is we feel we have more scale than anybody else in the u.s alone we have 100 million profiles you're going to be hard-pressed to find anybody anywhere close to that i myself have 20-plus years in the data ecosystem i'm working with every major data firm so that's not something you just roll out of bed and compete against and then lastly um i would say that there's a lot of people that i think you'll see this increasingly more um it's an intuitive philosophy where data is a manifestation of identity therefore you as a consumer should get should get a piece of that um you're gonna you're not gonna find a consumer that disagrees with that um what typically happens though from a technology point of view is when you see companies come into the market they say um you know robert let's let's give you back control of your data by the way here's a survey and then it kind of falls flat so with us what you'll find is very different is we've actually moved increasingly away from that we refer to things like surveys and card length offers and things like that really as kind of active revenue very difficult to scale because it puts a lot of pressure on consumers to consistently come into the product we've actually trademarked data dividend ethical data and fair trade data so that concept of universal basic income which people like presidential candidate andrew yang and governor gavin newsom often talk about we're actually doing this so we passively pay americans in cash every week using the payment rail that we have and that concept of scale plus passive accumulation slash redistribution of wealth we think kind of makes us the lead dog in this multi-billion dollar market no i you literally just hit on my next question because i was really curious as to you know it seems like more or less the technology is already there so it seems like that mode has shrank and it seems like the new mode for companies like kelly is now scalability and and and utilizing that network effect am i hitting on the right point there yeah so um anybody that looks at this this thesis or this or what we're trying to do you're gonna have kind of two buckets of skeptics the first is gonna say great idea how do you scale that's the first one and then the other skeptic on the other side of the equation is the consumer which is great idea how much money can i make right so kind of you gotta you've got to deal with both of these buckets if you want to kind of if you want to get consumer adoption um i think the big thing for us that has been a really unique driver that's allowed us to scale has been sort of twofold and i kind of refer to the front door and the back door the front door simplistically is that you know you as a consumer can come to kili.io online through an application etc sign up for an account and begin to link various different modules that will allow you to take back control and be compensated so that's the front door the back door is really kind of a consequence of what we've seen around this move around privacy so most people are aware of things like the privacy act which came out in europe fewer people most americans are aware of this concept of the california consumer privacy act and it's a really important piece because i mean clearly i'm biased but i think this this movement towards uh privacy and consumer control of data or consumer inclusion in the data ecosystem is one of the largest kind of themes that you'll see and if you look at kind of the top news stories today you know the four ceos of the big tech firms in front of congress tick tock slash microsoft uh covid tracing surveillance this has nothing to do with china it has nothing to do with tick tock it has everything to do with consumer data and privacy and so there's this underlying drum beat that is driving all of these stories so you know we think that this trend is is is definitely i'm going to continue why i bring that up is that a lot of firms that have operated in the data space do not have a consumer interaction in the same way that a facebook would or a bbc would where there's a one-to-one communication between you as the consumer and them as the publisher um there's what's referred to as a data broker a data broker is a headless entity that contains a lot of data um this is where we think that the kind of the problem is with with privacy um there is no way for these individuals to to communicate to the consumers whose data that they have this is the problem because in california you need to have explicit consent in order to use people's data so as a consequence so if you think about publicly marked publicly traded companies like oracle salesforce live ramp load you know these are companies that have huge huge data sets but they don't have a head on top of those data sets and if the if the privacy regulation continues to change where they need to have explicit consent how do they get that they come to companies like us where we are consumer focused and we we're working with these firms to basically um create the consent string on top of a data set that they that they haven't had um that's been a very big move for us it's allowed us to scale very very fast um and so that's kind of the back door part that i kind of mentioned that's that's pretty interesting i mean that's almost like an enterprise option for what you guys are building right now yeah i'd love to tell you that this was like this massive brainwave that we kind of planned and came up with but it was oh come on just take credit let's go it's fine yeah we were all over them consequence of what we bought in the product and you know not to kind of bore everybody with sort of the minutia here but inside of the product you know there's a couple of very important pieces one you have the equivalent of a banking record so you can see anybody who's used your data and the value of that data so png bought my location data for 25 cents as an example you as a consumer though also have the tools to turn on and off any various different pieces of data that you want i do not want to share gender i do want to share age i don't want to share a location i do want to share a credit card that opt in and opt out on an individual variable level is ip and it is that which is where which is what companies want to leverage when you know i made this term up of consent as a service where they want to kind of outsource the consent mechanism to companies who are entirely focused on that because they're either too small or in the united states privacy legislation is driven by the state it's not driven federally it's kind of the new tax law you know there's a federal and then there's a state level tax law uh so it gets very cumbersome so we've sort of taken that on for a number of these firms which has allowed us to scale quite quickly one one one potential risk question that i had to ask because i just i it's been kind of in my brain i mean especially when you're talking about on the retail side and marketing to you know individuals that say hey go sign up on kelly i mean is there a commoditization risk potentially here where you know let's say there's multi you know another company sees oh kili is for lack of a better term killing it you know let's let's let's just repeat what they're do rinse and repeat and maybe just pay more to the consumer so that they come on our platform so that they get paid more here you know is that is that a potential risk no so here's why um so this is interesting because when people say we come back to that second category of like oh how much money can i make you know we'll often explain to the consumer and we'll say you know are you aware that facebook makes 40 a month off of your data no and i've been of the belief that what big technology companies like facebook are most scared of is not elizabeth warren and not the doj and that that does not fear them they don't fear those companies what facebook fears is a coup inside of their own platform based on their data practices so if you have two and a half billion people inside of facebook asking facebook for a dollar that's a two and a half billion dollar rip every month that's not going to work so the big companies kind of don't want to sort of talk about that but in response to your comment about commoditization the misconception of consumers is first of all your data is already being sold it's being sold by hundreds of firms and it's already commoditized so if i asked you if we played a little game of like uh a little quiz here and i asked you let's go all right okay so if i asked you would you allow me to track you persistently for 30 straight days using your mobile phone yes or no let's say for arguments let's say yes sure for the record most people say no but let's for this oh for this we'll say yes yeah for this we'll say yes and i said okay cool um great i'm not gonna track your phone i'm gonna get probably about three to five hundred location pings a day uh from your phone what do you think would be fair compensation for that data what do you think i i don't even know i couldn't even give an answer so this is like a sociological experiment but when you ask people they'll say i want twenty dollars people some people say i want five dollars some people say i want a dollar the going rate for location data in the market to track you persistently is less than one penny per month now here's the rub so this is sort of the thesis if you think about if you're looking for disruption i'm a curious guy that's why i'm guess i'm a serial entrepreneur and when things don't make sense i scratch at them and having been in this data market for a long time what what i find intriguing is okay hang on a second if if no consumer would be willing to sh if the majority of consumers would not be willing to share location data and i'm just using location as kind of one subset and those that do share would only be doing would only be willing to do so at minimum a dollar and the going rate is less than a penny this is not going to like this is going to blow up and when you add in the privacy compliance and regulation from the top which is forcing the consent that's in a roundabout way requiring those companies who are buying buying location at a penny to literally ask the consumer if they're willing to do it and the answer is going to be uh no or you got to give me more money so there's this massive sort of disruption that is happening inside of the market and it's sort of manifesting in a variety of different ways like what what's going on with apple what's going on with the loss of the third-party tracking cookie from google these are all things that are that are are really being driven by kind of by privacy and really about kind of kind of consumer inclusion so why i don't think that commoditization is really going to happen is for consumers is is one there will be a there will be kind of one two or maybe three of these big players in the market they will not be the big technology companies it will be an independent hopefully us um and if you can make the most amount of money by obviously um linking accounts and etc you don't really have an incentive to kind of take that same data and send it somewhere else it just doesn't really kind of there's not really an incentive to do that so um i think for the first for the short term it's about you need scale in order to sell data you need to do ubiquitous distribution in order to sell data and then you need demand um all three of those are really important you cannot have two out of three you have to have three out of three and those are not trivial things to do show me a company that's got 100 million users in the united states ubiquitous distribution into all of the global data buying platforms and relationships with every fortune 500 brand and or agency the answer is one it's us so um that's kind of how we look at it all right neil i feel like we could go on for forever with this because it's a fascinating topic i mean it you know and it's and it's very very much in the early innings i think it's i would argue it's still in the top of the first maybe with one out you know i mean so a little baseball reference you're based in toronto so you you follow the blue jays right so this year unfortunately but yeah i'm here all right good so so uh so my next question comes back to kelly the business itself you know what would you say then i mean you've kind of alluded to this already more or less in our interview but what would you then say at least specifically are the main value catalyst for the company for the rest of this year going into 2021 yeah so for the rest of this year i think what you should what you can kind of keep an eye on is these announcements around kind of around account accretion um i think as the market starts to kind of understand that their scale so if the if the skeptics are always worried about scale that that box has been fundamentally checked um so kind of monitoring that you know going from where we were you know most people in this ecosystem have maybe a few hundred thousand kind of records if the if the next kind of person has you know a couple million and you have a hundred million that's the big one so track that and we recently filed to kind of move up so we recently filed to move our listing in the u.s market up to the otc so i think um that is i think more we inherited that listing when we did our rto um i think it's also sort of we want to demonstrate t people that look we have 100 million people in the u.s we are a global data firm and we are serious about kind of what we're trying to do in the capital markets i think that that will draw kind of more attention more volume to what we're doing um and then as it relates to kind of distribution um this is the part that i think there'll be a there'll be a small few people in the capital markets that kind of understand this but that notion of making sure that you can have all the scale in the world but if you cannot put it into the platforms that people buy data from you will never generate that passive return for the consumer that creates a sticky flywheel so again think about that if you have if the more people you have the more data you have the more data you have the more buyers you have the more buyers you have the more money you have and around and around you go if you remove one of those variables from the equation it all falls down so if you have 100 million with ubiquitous distribution then you can plug into kind of international demand we have this distribution so i always use the analogy of if you're trying to sell a product into a grocery store you need to be in kroger walmart costco etc the same thing happens as it relates to data there are half a dozen of these big data platforms that act as the watering holes for basically every single data buyer in the world we are the only company in the world that is providing consumer uh consumer data or uh consumer included data inside of those instead of those platforms so we think that as people begin to kind of understand that and those things get increasingly more pronounced and announced that that will be a real driver and ultimately what that does it drives revenue and what revenue drives it drives redistribution to consumers so what we think is sort of interesting about what we're doing with um the individual consumers is nothing bad happens when you give consumers more money that's the reality so if you had to if you made a dollar this month and two dollars the next month and in order for you to make the two dollars it was passive like a universal basic income or like a dividend then why would you drop out of the product and forego future revenue the answer is you won't and some people might say two dollars is not enough for me but two dollars is 100 more than what you received the last month and it continues to increase every single person in the world is using some sort of loyalty card coupon points card this is no real difference the difference is that it's cash well with that neil where can my audience go and find everything they need to know about kelly kelly dot io k-i-l-l-i dot io you can find it online and in either the google play and or apple stores well neil thank you so much for joining me today i really do appreciate it good luck stay safe and i look forward to our next update thanks so much youtube you