Print Roomer Payment with airSlate SignNow

Print roomer payment

hey you're going to love this interview with jeff booth the author of the book the price of tomorrow and the co-founder of the company build direct if you've ever heard jeff in the past you know that he is fantastic at talking about the macro economy but in this interview i really push to number one learn about his entrepreneurial background in more detail and speak tangibly to what individuals entrepreneurs and thoughtful people like you can do to protect themselves in turbulent times you're listening to going deep with aaron watson [Music] jeff thanks for coming to the podcast man i'm really excited to be talking with you no problem aaron looking forward to this um it is really cool to me to have the opportunity to speak with an entrepreneur who's not you know months into a business and just trying to get off the ground not years into it where it's kind of still on like training wheels trying to pick up momentum but you've seen maybe not the complete life cycle of a business but you've seen something from from a genesis point from an idea all the way to like real scale real maturity and frankly multiple chapters where you kind of had to reinvent uh the business that you were operating so i actually wanted to start there with build direct uh at the beginning and can you just talk a little bit about the initial idea for the company that you co-founded and what that eventually grew into um the initial initial idea for bill direct was um out of a building company i had and and i failed to deliver the house on time and probably anybody thinking about the buildings sector uh um that's pretty normal occurrence right and and and so i had to put the family up in the hotel furniture and storage because i failed to deliver the house on time and i was i was pissed um they were mad at me i was mad at what caused this and as you as i realized how broken a mess the building industry was um i said i'm going to fix this and create a a technology solution to be able to solve all the complexity of why why why materials never arrive on time people have no choice in the matter of what they got and so that started uh that started a journey um at builddirect and i and quite honestly when i started it just like most entrepreneurs i had no idea what i was up for i didn't know the my belief in myself to be able to do it was here my ability was here where it was through the floor it was just the and so i just knew it was a problem that needed to be solved so i went and said i was going to solve it and that was 99 in the middle of the dot-com boom so like that that seemed like a pretty frothy time from what i've heard i don't necessarily remember but was it what was it like yeah so so you could have raised money on in fact my co-founder at the time uh uh who was one of my best friends and a roommate um said let's start an internet company and i laughed at him and i said most of these are going to be bankrupt because they don't provide any value um and and then so he probably put the idea in my mind about starting something uh e-commerce related or technology-related and then a couple weeks later it was this event that i'm talking about that just realized i'm gonna put those together and and so we started the company together um and it was a frothy time and and so at that time you could have raised any money on a napkin um it was late 1999 and you could and we instead didn't do that we instead raised money from family and friends and and we did the opposite of what the market was doing at the time we said to to those family and friends you're most likely going to lose all your money um that this this is going to be really hard and don't invest in us because you think we're a dot com invest in it is because you think there's a chance to actually create the create some value here so um fortunately a lot of really good friends family and at that time we raised 500 000 to start the business we had already proof that approved the concept before that but but to really get after the business we raised five hundred thousand um in about uh four months later we raised an additional million and what were you building with what were you building first with those resources so when you think about how when when you realized how building how the supply chain worked for building supplies that's that caused all of that problem you realized that that there were a bunch of middlemen in between believing what they thought would sell into the market and say and and refining that choice because it costs a lot to deliver stuff from say overseas all the way through and they had to make bets on that inventory and then they would be wrong or right based on demand and you'd have outages or not not product in stock and everything else so the complexity that solved the problem how long the supply chain to solve the problem created the pain and so we had to break that complexity so so we started um by it was almost looking back it was the first iteration of this was almost like a costco of building materials our value proposition was as simple as this and this this might be helpful for other entrepreneurs just to set up something that's different and shaded from every everyone else you have to go where no one else is going right it had to be to create value it's not necessary you have to get that change of value if you're it's not just like everybody else if you want to separate from the pack and so in a big idea like this we had to separate so what we thought of as almost like a costco of building materials where we could increase the order size a lot instead of sells small order sizes and by increasing the order size and at that time order size we increased to container size so instead of buying a thousand square feet of foreign flooring you'd have to buy 25 000 square feet of flooring and you and and so what we did is you also had to pay in advance um instead of getting terms and everything else and then what we could do with that model at costco building supplies is we could use essentially just a nighttime inventory or rolling or floating inventory and we could pre-produce what people were buying with it and and deliver it to them 90 days later so you can imagine and and so then the market happened everything collapsed and we had a business where we we were saying trust us we will deliver this great product to you in three months and it'll be everything you think and wire us the money before you get it which which sounds insane but the price was literally one tenth of what they could get anywhere else so some people so so again you we had and and because quality is learned after the after you do a transaction we always were really high quality but but people were buying because of price and essentially what they did is they discounted everything else customer service quality everything up and it started the kind of feedback loop but when it was delivered they realized wow this is high quality customer service everything else and they told more people so our business went from after a whole bunch of ups and downs and everything else and building the technology our business went from zero or fourteen thousand dollars in the first month in january 2001 when the technology was built it was fourteen one sale two million dollars by the end of the year to 14 million the following year to 28 million the following year or two and and because we were paid in advance for all of our products we didn't uh we didn't need one money we didn't need to raise more money it was it was printing money and it was growing really fast so it was a really exciting business um that was that would that was phase one of the business and that actually kind of reminds me of stitch fix in the way that katrina lake she struggled to raise financing but it was almost out of necessity she was like give me 20 bucks before i even send you the clothes um for your uh different like apparel recommendations that she sends directly to people people like oh my gosh that's so brilliant i was like it wasn't necessary for me to keep the business functioning so it sounds like the the lack of funding that you took on was also disciplining you to build that kind of more um sustainable business model for yourselves we designed a business model to to focus on one thing and at the expense of everything else right the expensive so what people will a lot of times do is they'll try to be average at everything and they won't stand out of the pack for anything so if you think about providing terms as an example or smaller lot sizes or anything else anything else all of those things cost more and you have to average the average that cost across everyone else so it creates a it created a way to differentiate the company not because of capital it was a way to differentiate the company that that created the the value that then kept on kept on growing that kept on growing up till 2008 and it grew really fast up to 2008 and then you can imagine in 2008 that with the credit crisis our business turned off because now nobody had credit and our entire thing was based on credit so we had a 50-odd million dollar business um that went to 18 million dollars like that but remember in that we still owe the 50 we didn't know 50 million but we owed a bunch of that and now we're 18 million so remember in 2008 what happened and the all the businesses collapsed and everything else and there was an insight at that time in the business that uh um and so was 18 million dollars for two years and it should have been done it should have been over and the business should have collapsed at that point we had suppliers we couldn't pay everything for nobody very few people buying anymore or and it was it was essentially over and there was an insight out of the data that i had um that i realized most people realize pricing because uh because uh the product has the price embedded so just about everything you see on the store in front of you has it has shipping price embedded in the price amazon gives free shipping and so you buy based on that on on that setup but when i looked in our data because of the way we constructed that you had a product database and you had a shipping database that were two different things so so what that meant is you could see the demand for every single product and by the shipping amount you could see where the ship where the product should be and it was and those two those two data points were different they were totally different so so a lot of people will say i'm going to move all of this product into my store or location and then i'm going to give free shipping to people that are really far away and what do they have to do by giving free shipping to people that are really far away they have to they have to increase the price of the product for the people that are close by and so that seemed it seems intuitive when you think you think about it but when you see the data especially on heavyweight products like building supplies it went it was ah it was this magic um and and we could see as a byproduct of that we could see the real demand data all the time and where every product should be all the time to be able to optimize its best uh its best location so we took that data and this is remember this is in the height of the collapse um and and i've failed didn't mention i sold my house at that time because i believed in this data so my wife and i went all into the company um and family or three kids under four two and one and went all in if it didn't work we were we were done um and went all in because i believed in and i went to one of the suppliers first supplier that i did it was in turkey and i said first bad news we can't pay you um but here i have this really good idea in this data if you move your inventory from turkey and use this and and we open up a warehouse with your inventory in it so you put it there we don't buy it we put it there against this data we believe this data will sell at this rate because this is the this is so we gave them data they gave us product in return to people so but imagine a supplier in turkey or china or anywhere in the world doing that and just giving you product that that is in your warehouse that they uh that they and so but the data was super compelling and suppliers did that and then that supplier they were winning they were winning and the business went in the next four years from from 18 million to 120 million dollars so um again um because it was based on essentially consignment inventory or suppliers building into there it was it was staggering we were so you could reduce the cost again and lower order size but you could do it without actually so so you did it based on the data of the market wow and and it's also wildly more profitable for you guys once that transition was made yeah everything you reduce so now lead time uh instead of three three months and on lead time you had lead time as long as you could predict that cycle well you had lead time you could deliver it the next day um and and and and so everybody won in that cycle and it worked really well the problem in that cycle is well it was growing really fast if i say what the business should have done against the data versus what it did do in the data that last year it went from 80 million to 120 million but the 80 million should have been about 350 million instead of 120 million what happened is when you have human beings predicting the data or taking the data and then giving to other human beings it's moving too fast so you can't keep up so so i'll give you an example let's say a certain skew a certain product skew had a kind of a call it a digital identity and in that digital identity it had price quality everything else and and and and locations so you could predict that digital identity and then you gave that scenario to a supplier and they were predicted and they were bringing hundreds of containers and storing them where you told them to in different locations and then the next day or three days later if the feedback went from five out of five to three out of five it changes the whole demand forecast and human beings are really bad at picking up those changes on both sides on the positive changes for the sellers and the negatives that changes for the sellers so so we had to reinvent the business again to be able to put essentially artificial intelligence in the middle to be able to pick up the changes so that so that you that that you can scale with the business and so the not the end point but the the transition here is if you if you were to restate that summarize that 20-ish year arc you went from being the home builder yourself which is primarily throwing you know human efforts and and kind of different plans against this problem to creating the kind of most basic of digital catalogs to slightly more data informed networks uh of distribution to ai powered uh highly you know data informed choices here and and that framework that you've lived as an entrepreneur is a pattern that you see being applied to every single industry like there's there's no industry that is uh going to elude such a transition yeah it's if every industry is going through that and what it should say for your audience too is i three years ago i left build uh bill direct because the transition to get for the next sketch that that ai we actually made it and you could see and it was hard to make it because you go through these cycles and business any of the people that are entrepreneurs they're listening know what it feels like oh my god i'm going to lose everything and then then on the other side wow it's everything's working out so there's really highs and lows in that whole uh process but at the end i actually put data into the business to be able to make it through the next wave the ai powered wave and just on the and remember we had sold our house we'd gone through so we were all all in and so but the debt in the business when we made it wouldn't let us out of the debt because they wanted the company and and so so i walked away literally with zero in the company i found uh founded and the company cl uh uh collapsed as as a result of kind of what it would end up happening out of 17 years in a business it was zero with no ability to pay the rent on the house that i was renting and and no ability to capture so so how ugly that could look you can imagine coming home to your wife and saying because in in that case uh what would debt do in the beginning what would do that obviously that would come into you and say um hey why don't we do this together i'll give you more of the company for me that giving me more of the company and doing it with the debt meant riding over all of the people that i had invested into the company that were also friends and everything else so i i would have to make a personal decision at the sacrifice of a whole bunch of people that did that and i couldn't live with that so so i i said my integrity is not for sale for any price and walked away from the company i i i i started and then uh and then they did a restructure to try to to no and they wiped everybody out so it did doesn't look like the same thing of anything else but but that whole experience walk come into your uh come come home and have that conversation with uh and and so and what i would say so you talked about the whole arc of everything you go through there what i realized is all the learning is still there all the network people is still there all of everything else so how fast you could build wealth again how so i had a company that started 18 months ago uh sorry started two years ago it started sales 18 months ago zero sales 18 months ago it's now doing 10 million dollars a month and and so the amount of times that i've seen these patterns and everything else in a whole bunch of different companies and how i can apply that it's been it's been so powerful so so even though that and that chapter did not end well every other chapter and everything else is kind of if if you have your integrity and you have even if you have nothing um but you have all the learning you can build again really fast gotcha so i i want to i want to take that learning though um i want to go up to kind of a macro view and then i want to come back down to the micro um so the basis by which i reached out to you i wanted to learn about build direct but um the the thing that you might most be known for is your book the price of tomorrow and it's really centered on this idea of deflation which if you're not into economics if you're not into finance it's probably not necessarily a word that you think of that often but really it's outlined by the story of build direct which is that you were able to provide that service for one-tenth the cost and the experience of it was equal to if not better for the end customer which is what technology does consistently it consistently you know the fact that i can order i ordered the book on amazon and it got there like the next day is was just not possible 20 years ago uh when amazon was just getting started during the dot com boom so talk a little bit about how you've taken this framework and and applied it to the macro economy okay so so again bill direct is a kind of a company that i led and i was a co-founder of but that got me into the into the boardrooms of uh and and you can imagine what was happening all around me and all my friends and everything else and so so you're sitting i'm at google zeitgeist each year with kind of the top 500 minds in technology every year and spending tons of time with them and from all the companies your ubers your googles amazons everything else i know a lot of the players and spent a lot of time with players so you understand the pattern and you you see what's happening and and what what i realized and uh and had been talking about for 10 years i'd never wanted to write a book on it but but i kept on asking if technology is this deflationary if it's providing this much efficiency and that efficiency is deflationary and we can see it all around us if you look at your phone your phone today versus 20 years ago look at what's on your phone all the apps and how much do you pay for them you can see the tremendous abundance that you get and the cost keeps coming down and down it in 2015 there's an article about self-driving cars that says they'll never scale because lidar costs per car lidar is on the the new iphone 12 and and the bill of materials on the iphone 12 for lidar cost five dollars that's how they do so when you think about how how staggering these things are and they're all around us you would naturally think prices should be coming down everywhere everywhere in everything not just technology technology is moving into a base layer layer of everything we do with ai you'd think your prices should be coming down everywhere and i was puzzled that nobody was talking about that and so i investigated i looked deeper i did what an entrepreneur does like okay this is scratching me um i need to find out more and so i looked deeper and then i realized okay there's 200 250 trillion dollars of global debt in the world to run an 80 trillion dollar global economy and that's a lot of debt and and when you and and so when you think about trillions of dollars think about this if you paid back a dollar a second for uh on on the debt a dollar a second it would cost 31 710 years to pay back a trillion dollars so 250 trillion is a lot of money and and then think okay can we grow our way out of that because that's what everybody says oh we'll just grow our way out of it we'll just grow our way out of it and you and what i realized is if you add more and more debt you're actually stealing growth from the future because taxes must go up to pay for that debt later on so you actually have to slow grow so the more debt that comes into society the more it actually grows that's bad enough but i wanted to look deeper than that if my thesis was correct that something has changed and technology is advancing exponentially and that exponential technology advancement should be providing abundance and price declines everywhere then it shouldn't be just the so we should notice something more recently that kind of shines a spotlight on that and that's exactly what you see you see 185 trillion of the 250 trillion of debt has come in the last 20 years to be able to stop technology is essentially to be able to stop the price declines nate nat and that would be natural out of technology progress from reaching society so you have these two forces competing against each other you have technology competing against an inflationary monetary policy that we've always lived in and those two forces competing in each other are actually the byproduct the second order effects of those inequality uprisings all of it is caused by those two forces competing against each other and so i said in the before we got on the recording um i didn't want to write a book i didn't want to but when i looked out at the path forward on what nobody was talking about i realized society's gonna this is a really bad thing it's a bad thing for my kids it's a bad thing for your generation aaron um because it that process drives inequality further and further and because nobody understands the process and what's up what's happening underneath they're all talking about second order effects and and and it's and and that'll that'll lead to predict a really bad predictable outcome and just to hit the the bell on the accelerating rate of that change just in another way it made me think of i actually hadn't thought of this until you were saying it um venture capitalist josh wolf has this metaphor of the half-life of technological intimacy so 50 years ago you'd have a computer in like an entire room and then 25 years ago you had it on a desktop and then 12 years ago you had a laptop in six years it's your iphone and three years ago it's your iwatch and now you've got the airpods in and it's just getting closer and closer but like really what that's saying is the form factor of how much computational power can be delivered in a smaller lower powered entity is just accelerate like that is legitimately a hockey stick upwards in terms of the rate of change and you know acknowledging like the the starting point is even just acknowledging this issue that's really what i see the book as being it's like are you even seeing what is happening clearly before you can make a prediction about the future like you have to see the present clearly well well the answer is quite simply no because it's so hard and you know from reading the book i use an example of a paper folding and if you fold a piece of paper on itself and you keep folding you can only fold it seven times but if you could fold that piece of paper 50 times on itself that piece of paper would reach the sun and when i've asked that to tens of thousands of people nobody gets the answer nobody um you probably when you read the book went on google and said is this true um and so and the point the point is and we laugh at that and because because i didn't get an answer uh either but we laugh of it but at it and and then we think because we heard the parlor trick we're capable of understanding it that is not my point at all in the book my point is if we're really bad at understanding those exponentials and the evidence is pretty clear we're really bad at it then we will always miss how fast things are moving in the future if we have an exponential pattern underlying everything that's coming everyone will miss it so so why did blockbuster miss netflix because they missed the exponential pattern what did it cost them nine thousand stores went out of business and by the time they did it was way too late and all that changed is download speeds changed right and it rendered the old business completely obsolete why did kodak miss the digital camera that they that they uh invented because of this because of the same thing they couldn't see how the new innovation was congruent with the business model that they created that same thing in in every one of us me too is is what's happening at a policy level why would we expect our governments or or fed or institutions to be any different and miss that so they miss it exactly the same but it costs more now because they're playing an old playbook and that old playbook that a whole bunch of the population believes is is is being broken by technological progress and what you do a good job in the book of doing is breaking down when you reach the end because the other side when you talk about that enormous amount of debt for the entire economy relative to uh gdp that's indicative of being at the end of a debt super cycle which is something that ray dalios talked about and plenty of macro people have commented on and i kind of want to just i want to place that idea for people so if they want to go explore that further they can but what i really want to go to jeff is very down to the individual level whether it's an entrepreneur listening to this whether it's an employee listening to this you know listeners will know that anti-fragile is one of my favorite books i love the the concept that in times of disorder in times of chaos there are ways that you can carry yourself to seize opportunity as opposed to be exposed to more extreme danger and in this type of change there has to be it's clear you've laid out there's dangers to you know being eliminated by automation the flip side is that there are opportunities so how as someone who's helped these businesses so quickly get up to 10 million revenue built your own companies yourself what mental models can you offer to individuals to help seize opportunity in such a seismic change as opposed to kind of being run over by it so so number one for everybody that's in uh listening to this research what i said deeper pick up the book not because i need to buy it by my book be because it is super critical for you your family it's critical that you understand what's happening when you understand what's happening you realize that technology will not be slowed it's gonna keep moving and and government's likely if governments tried to turn off the tap right now then or in stop printing what it would mean is a reset of asset prices by 90 percent or so around the globe and all bankings would would collapse everything would collapse so with that they probably won't turn off the taps but that has different consequences now now think about when you when you talked about anti-fragile or than that if you're all in on one game you're dead if the other event happens and and the game that most people are playing right now is a manipulated currency game and they're levering up for more and more my house has to go up and everything else thinking that because there's been 185 trillion of stimulus over the last 20 years there's going to be 185 trillion or 300 trillion over the next 20. if that stimulus doesn't keep going more and more and more because technology is going the other way there's going to be a collapse so at some point you need to be and businesses need to be aware of it and everything else or to hedge your risk against a against that um so that's one in an environment that's moving like this so once you understand the pattern and you understand what's what should be happening and what isn't then you might look okay how long could this pattern persist what could it do what could what could what could hurt me in it but but beyond that where i spend my time is is technology companies that are that that actually are are using that to bring good to society and there's i'm on the boards of 10 different companies and i could and i'm not going to go into them here here because this isn't about the companies i'm involved in but i look for opportunities that create massive gains for people society out of technology and so and and where founders uh that are really great people and so so when you spend time on some of these industries that are changing and everything else and what's to come next and using technology to make them more efficient you realize there's tons of opportunity specifically people that are listening where will there be opportunity there will be an opportunity in solar there will be opportunity in health care there will be opportunity in agriculture moving to getting far more efficient and localized there's a whole bunch of giant industries that haven't yet changed that are going to see tremendous change and you'd probably want to be on the leading edge of those technology companies because the learning rate will be so great for you so that's the either construct them um understand what there's time there's lots of opportunity and gaming there's lots of opportunity in uh vr 3d additive manufacturing some of these industries just completely change other industries and and there so there's lots of opportunity but but net net globally there's not more jobs than there were that's the part that's that's the problem so the so if you're fighting an old path in an old industry that is going to be dying you're going to be fighting really hard against the tide another thing that kind of jumped out to me when you between listening to the interviews and reading the book it's so unarguable the deflationary effects of this technology and so when i'm thinking about the cost of things going down and the deflation of cramping like this downward chart and i'm thinking of the it pops up on at least for at least my social media feed every you know month or two it's you know the differing rates of inflation broken out by industry type and they show like the freaking crazy uh rate of inflation for medical services and for education and then they show like you know the cost of a tv you know you can get a tv ten times as large for one tenth the price and how that's just been you know completely on that downward trajectory so to me it also seems like an opportunity if you can identify the competitor has gotten kind of fat and happy on the the thick margins and not um recognize that the deflationary prices are coming that also seems like a place from a competition standpoint where there's just going to be a lot of opportunity because that's where the change is going to be occurring is that fair yeah so aaron even what you just asked and i get a lot of people commenting on that chart yeah that chart is measuring the system from the existing system imagine that chart with no money printing house pricing would be down education would be down everything and and tvs and stuff would be way down way more so all of those numbers that you're looking at are with the inflationary printing and printing and printing and even all the printing in in computers television because that's where you can't offset how much those are coming down because it's happening faster so so so realize that you're the thing you're measuring everything is against is the thing that's being manipulated and it's a really important concept right you're measuring all of those things that you're measuring as being so so yes you can't it's impossible to argue that technology creates efficiency which creates uh deflation on an exponential scale and there's and and governments are trying to offset that more more in your time ask a bigger question if you want to really see so so education is one of those areas that you you just talked about and you said how the price of education there's probably a whole bunch of people listening to this price of education so high when i went to school you could go to a or the highest price school that cost probably 10 times cheaper than it does now um and you could be guaranteed a higher wage job out of it because you went to that school that is no longer the case it's just people believe it's still the case education is free it's already free with an internet connection you could learn anything you want about anything and you can get to whoever you want researchers phds everything you could get as deep as you want on any topic with an internet connection go use khan academy and see what you could do in math and science go in coding with so your time is not free but education is already free but we have a concept that we have the only reason education is the price it is is because of a belief that we'll get a higher paying job when we get out of that education and that belief is about to get destroyed i can tell you from hiring thousands of people i would hire every time this the the driven curious person a a person that's constantly curious and and driven they learn faster and they never stop learning so learning is important curiosity is important that drive is important education less so but it's a belief pattern we all have so it persists for a time agreed yeah i'm i'm pretty vociferously uh again so my business partner she never went to college uh basically self-taught in everything and that was the appeal in terms of our partnership for piper i was just like man from the age of 18 to 22 i've seen her get like hockey stick growth better and that's who i wanted to be in business with and and by the way that's what if if i think about the thing that's driven everything for me both family business everything else it's that learning right it's like curiosity everything it's so um if i had one uh one above everything else to do i used to tell my employees don't just think because you're at a company that's doubling every year in sales that you're learning at that rate what are you doing personally to learn above that rate because in a technology world that's moving as fast as it is it's almost a requirement yeah um jeff you've given me given the audience a lot to think about here um i wanna kind of aim towards wrapping up ask the standard last two questions but before i do that is there anything else you were just hoping to convey to the audience today that i didn't give you a chance to um no problem probably not at a at a high level um there is are tons of opportunities that are going to break down tons of opportunity really excited about this but on the other side of this this system that we work in i understand there's also a whole bunch of people maybe you or maybe somebody else that's going through a ton of pain because of the systems breaking down understand that it doesn't look the same for everybody in a system like this and so i would say with empathy or her or humility understand what it what somebody else might be going through without kind of this awareness amen um for folks that want to kind of continue to find ways to learn from you what digital coordinates can we provide people probably twitter is best just at jeffbooth on twitter wonderful we're going to link that and uh jeff's way too humble but i'm also going to link to and recommend his book the price of tomorrow for folks that want to explore these ideas a little bit more deeply and there's you know you reference anti-fragile in the book you reference big debt crises by by ray dalio in there as well there's plenty of very accessible learning that can can continue to be done uh if your your heart and your mind take you in that direction jeff um i i appreciate you coming on the show and sharing some time with us before i let you go i want to give you the mic one final time to issue an actionable personal challenge to the audience um i i probably said it already yeah um empathy when you see so so you know in in a world that's breaking down and going through a structural change you will believe a whole bunch of the stuff that you've been programmed to believe you will too so will somebody else and you'll it's easier to hang out with friends who believe the same things it's easier to be on a community that's in a community that believes the same things as you understand that that manipulation or what you believe is driving apart society and it might not be caused by what you believe at all it might be caused by something else like this if that's true look for yourself verify it if that if that's true understand that everybody in society is going through the same thing and a bunch of the stuff you fight about or think it's those people is not true at all um and so if you can do that if you can do that if you get to that point build bridges so that people understand so more people are aware of what's going on and we can we can actually fix this spot on i love it and uh i i love the challenge i hope everyone will take it and uh jeff thanks for coming on the podcast man it's great aaron thanks hey thanks for watching to the end of my conversation with jeff if you enjoyed this then make sure you check out our past interview with brent johnson he talks about his dollar milkshake theory and also discusses how it can be practically applied to help people like you you