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anomic wars it led to a deal the trends were agreement that story on Chicago tonight with John Calloway [Music] this evening on Chicago tonight author Edwin black rabbi Byron Sherwin Berta's College of Judaica and rabbi William Frankel as president of the Chicago Zionist Federation discuss the transfer agreement controversy with host John Calloway good evening and welcome to the program and Edwin black thank you very much for being here this evening helped me set the stage if you would if I understand it's 1933 your book centers on 1933 Hitler has just come to power the German economy is in a terrible mess it is really threatened by the prospect of a worldwide Jewish boycott because Hitler hasn't wasted any time going to work on the Jews inside Germany punishing them in all sorts of ways and then as a result of this and we're jumping way ahead a deal is struck which you call in your book the transfer agreement give us a capsule of what that was and then we'll work our way backwards in exchange for the transfer of Jewish people and money from Germany to Palestine the Zionists agreed to sabotage the boycott which threatened to topple the Hitler regime in the first year so that it is a deal with the devil in effect and it divided badly the Jewish world a deal with the devil to save Jewish lives and to create a Jewish state you're arguing to save more Jewish lives you're saying that's the first priority that's right would a Jewish state would the State of Israel exist if this deal hadn't gone through without the continuing economic relationship between the Third Reich and designed this it seems doubtful that there would be a State of Israel as we know it today and if the boycott which never did finally come to the fruition that it potentially could have had come off could Hitler been put out of business early on in 1933 or 34 for a several month period during the spring and early summer of 1933 there was a chance a chance that if all the Jews were organized and the Zionist movement was behind them and the American Jewish Committee was there and the Christian world was mobilized that the Hitler regime could have been toppled through the economic chaos that would have have resulted but there's no question that the blood of the German Jews would have been discovered underneath the ashes of the German economy because the retaliation and the massacres against the German Jewish hostages in Germany would have been certain by the time the summer of 33 comes it's very difficult to overthrow the Hitler regime and the chances diminish radically as we get into 1933 and then it's simply a holding action to keep hitlerism within the borders of the Third Reich and stuff it's spread from the rest of Europe alright and it is because the Germans the Jews inside Germany are being held hostage 600,000 of them in effect are being held hostage in 1933 the Jewish leaders the members of the Jewish Committee in the United States and other Jewish leaders around the world are saying go easy on this notion of a boycott because you may enrage Hitler and you may see the punishment even worse was that not the governing factor against an immediate total boycott that was the governing factor by those Jewish leaders in America who were of German descent those Jewish leaders who were of East European descent and/or who represented in East European constituency such as the American Jewish Congress the Jewish War veterans felt that the only way to stop Hitler was an effective boy cut was to to protest visibly to isolate him diplomatically and economically and and that we could not stop just because there were threats of reprisals they knew that by opposing desire several years earlier earlier they had increased the attacks upon the Jewish hostages there and at that time they said Jewish blood must be spilled in the war of Liberty but it's understandable how people could be fearful at that time for their own kith and kin living in Germany and the ironies are incredible in this story because there was a deep relationship between the Jews in Germany and the in the stand Germany as a nation Germany you right had in effect saved the Jews in Palestine from annihilation from the Turks during World War one there was this great love of Germany and the culture of Germany by many of the Jews and while the deal was being made to get the German Jews to Palestine the German Jews were the last Jews on earth apparently many of them who wanted to go to Palestine anywhere else but Palestine that's right the German Jews were one segment of the Jewish community which considered them themselves anti Zionist they considered themselves 101 percent German they were Germans who were by accident of birth of Jewish religion many of them were reformed Jews Jews of little identity and the last place they would have gone to was Palestine it is an extraordinary irony in one of the telling stories of the transfer agreement how an organization and a movement within Germany that represented just one or two percent of the community became the custom the custodian of the inn scientism only represented one or two percent of the Jewish population of 600,000 in Germany you're saying according to its own best estimates 1933 in Palestine you've got the the Jewish portion of Palestine you say is only 4% of the Arab parts 20 percent Great Britain has the rest in Mandate half of that is desert you're saying 800,000 Arabs 200,000 Jews in Palestine at roughly roughly now you introduce a character named Sam Cohen who is the deal maker at least at the beginning could it be argued that this is another one of those incredible chapters where somebody's really out to do good and make profit and change the course of history that's exactly what the character of Sam Cohen is this man was half devil and half deliverer as he was called by his own associates and the people who knew him he he thought that by his own contrivances and intrigues he could deliver the Jewish people to the Jewish homeland and in the profit and in the process turned small profits Edlund like let me be just a little bit adversarial for the sake of discussion the the publicity surrounding the publication of this book indicates that it was a very daring thing for you to do to write this book and yet when I read it you wrote it with compassion and context and I'm saying this is another chapter of where you where we see captors making deals with captives and captives making deal with captors devils agreements are riddled through history we see Ronald Reagan tomorrow night going to China to sit down with those devil communists and everybody's kind of seeing the context of that was it really I mean is it really all that big a deal you are quite right the fact of the matter is those who criticize this book and those who criticize the transfer agreement are those who have not read the book and those who are not familiar with the agonizing details surrounding the tragic choices that the Jewish people had to make this book accuses no one but everyone is so afraid that they're going to be accused that they're worried about the book they're frankly worried now your parents were among those who were worried before they had a chance to read a 100 page out what did they say to you when you told him first told him that you were going to do this book well my mother said she was going to sit Shiva on me which is you may know is the Jewish ritual of mourning for a loved one who has died and my father who himself was a Zionist bait bait our partisan who fought against the Nazis literally offered to strangle me and I would not proceed without their blessing and I finally convinced him to read this hundred page outline that you just mentioned and it pointed out where the research would lead me and what the facts were and when my parents finally read it they said now we understand things we could never understand before please go and write the book all right we'll be back with more of that story and with some response to your book right after this [Music] [Music] [Music] now to help us in this conversation about edwin black's book the transfer agreement I want to introduce rabbi Byron Sherwin of Sporus College of Judaica and rabbi William Frankel who was a past president of the Chicago Zionist Federation and rabbi Sherwin if I understand correctly you in part were influential in edwin black's writing of this book how do you feel it would tell us that story and how you feel about it well it was in June of 1978 Edwin who I didn't know at the time called me regarding a story he was doing for the sun-times in connection with the Nazi march in Skokie and the article had to do with not with anti-semitism in America in the course of our discussion in response to one of his questions I mentioned the transfer agreement he responded by saying such a thing Clint of existed it's impossible a year and a half later he called me back and he said you remember you mentioned this thing called the transfer agreement it was there really such a thing I said yes he said well where can I find out about it I said it's documented in every one of the major histories of the Holocaust there were at the time for major histories of the Holocaust beginning with polio cops in 1954 down to it but I'm sorry let me in our white why was it important you think that it be written why would you encourage a writer I didn't encourage him or discourage him he was so enthused by the story that he took it but he sent him on to it originally I put him on in the course of that interview to many things and this was the one that seemed so incredible so unbelievable that he decided to pursue it have you read the book I've read it through a number of it strands migrations and in various manuscripts what's its value its value as I think that it opens up an area of Holocaust Studies an area of Jewish history an area of American Jewish history that has been kept very quiet rabbi Frankel how do you feel about this book well let me say this the problem with the book is the way it's being perceived in the community before having been read and that is largely due to the publicity which surrounded it an example another Network announced the program in this book in a rather questionable manner there's just a channel 5-piece I didn't want to mention well we're all friends those grants is called yes the travel files piece giving a picture or some kind of a sinister plot between the Zionists whatever that means and the Nazi government when in fact it was incidentally as a rabbi Sherman mentioned this can be found in any encyclopedias encyclopedia Judaica has a an article in this subject it's nothing sinister it was an arrangement the possibility that the boycott was actually topple the Hitler regime was a far-fetched possibility no just I'm sorry to interrupt when you say it's not to be viewed as sinister at the time if we can believe mr. blacks quotes and research there were quite a number of persons who felt that it was that it was doing business with the devil and that it divided Jewish groups and Jewish individuals and non Jews all over this world it did it did so that the characterization of it is sinister is certainly a retrospectively it did succeed in saving 60,000 German Jews and brought 40 million dollars to Israel and in fact it did not do much for the German economy because that money did never reach Germany it was drumming goods which were exported to Israel with money of German Jews which would never have left Germany have a nice question before we go to phone calls mr. black and that is that you make a great deal I think I think you're on record here and elsewhere as saying that this really was critter to the development the eventual development of the State of Israel and yet if only and maybe only isn't the word to use 60,000 German Jews from 1933 to 1941 ended up in in Palestine and are already two hundred thousand to start off with and many hundreds of thousands would follow statistically it doesn't sound like that's the it sounds to me like you can make an argument that Israel would go on and become a state sooner or later anyway you're right it's at the sixty thousand German Jews that came over its the fifty to a hundred million dollars in assets Seth came over which expanded the Palestinian economy increased the the general immigration quotas for East European Jews that allowed hundreds of thousands of East European Jews to come in escape the spreading now so marking the term leveraging is what we're talking about built the country we should we need to make I think one more point clear and that is that the the British Mandate charged if you if you wanted to get out of Germany you had to pay the equivalent of five thousand dollars or a thousand pounds wasn't no even have to enter Palestine enter Palestine needed a thousand pounds but you couldn't take a thousand pounds out of Germany like to also mention that although the transfer agreement is cited as effect in many Paulo in many Holocaust references that's all it is no one knows D no one knew the details behind its reporting that went on here we have phone calls you're on the air with the British Mandate did the British the British were often go go-betweens between the Zionist Organization and the Nazi regime they initially thought the transfer agreement was a great idea because they thought that British goods and services would abundantly supply the growing Palestinian economy at the last minute they found out that it would not be the British merchandise that would be Paris German merchandise and then they decided to take a hands-off policy we have another call you're on the air because [Applause] that's a little overdrawn is it not no it's not the the most authoritative reference on German Zionism is the history of German Zionism by Richard liftime who was of course on the Zionists the Zionist Executive Committee who says nowhere among the jewett the world Jewish communities was i anism more more rejected than in germany the organization's to which you refer the Maccabees sports organization was a transcontinental organization which was indeed Zionist but it fell on itself under a special category known as non Zionist which was a contrivance of the German Zionists to control Palestine without becoming nationalistic 'le involved Rabbi Frankel you wanted to comment well I'm not a German Brewers of Viennese I was born in Vienna I can tell you this designer is muscala strong in Vienna I'm aware there was strong opposition to Zionists in Germany at the same time the German scientists made a major contribution later on to the up building of Israel and that is reported on in the book I mean that's that is actually reported but it is it was considered in some circles of sacrilege it was at Lund circles I would question this the percentage of 4% only these are their own numbers there any other objection you have to this book other than the way it's been publicized and promoted well I within the few minutes we have here though there's some minor reservations I have for an example and I'm not talking about - I'm talking about subdivision ictus the division between Eastern European born Jews and German born Jews a german-born Jews in this country were more concerned about German Jews and Eastern European would have been I think meant to be justified I think we have another call let's go - good evening you're on the air hello did we have a call we have another call yes you're on the air good evening you're on the air yeah my objection come on what's your question my objection to this book is that not so much word reveals but the way it's being portrayed in the fact that money is being made and them to the manor it's as a commercial venture on the back from the Holocaust let's talk about the money part of this I guess the the premises you're getting rich quick on on the grief of other people well I suppose if the book becomes a double bestseller and makes tons of money my debt would only be diminished by about fifty thousand dollars I personally went into debt to the tune of $100,000 on this book when we when the book was finally launched it was assumed that it would be a commercial failure there is no way that I could ever make up the money that was spent on the book I'm paying about twenty thousand dollars a year in interest that does not account for my time did you pay all those people who helped you do all the translating and digging into all the various libraries around the world I paid for their planes I paid for their translations I recruited college students I read I recruited retired Holocaust survivors yeah I didn't make my own advance you want me I ask well the original book was bought by the New York Times books and then was switched to Macmillan but the total advance amounted to about 70% of a total cost and we have a beginning we have another caller good evening you're on the air [Applause] mr. black seriously considers the effect of a Jewish boy cart being such strength that it would affect Nazi Germany I'm glad you raised that question I wondered if that part of the drama and you really make it quite a narrative isn't over played a bit well it's very simple if the if Hitler did not think the boy cos would overthrow the Third Reich why would he help build the State of Israel well he would because there is evidence that he wanted to get rid of the Jews any way that he could and that was a way of doing it he could have gotten rid of the Jews without giving them assets he could have gotten rid of the Jews by his own timetable he kind of could have gotten rid of the Jews in many many ways and he could have just annihilated the Jews the fact he is intrigued by the notion of a of a state was he not no he opposed the notion of a state it wasn't until approximately 1937 to 1938 after the peel Commission when Britain recommended per partition that the Nazis looked around and said my goodness what have we done but he overruled Eichmann at one point yes he did at the very end you're getting into my second book all right rabbi Frankel well in this case I must disagree with the author the the Nazis in 1933 were not prepared to embark on the Holocaust yet the German people wasn't prepared the world wasn't prepared yeah but they got off to him they got off to a really but mass extermination was not on the agenda as yet that's true in that case they were most eager for the German Jews to leave every time the German Jew left in the apartment was vacated there was a shortage of job was opened a job was opened up that's translated I mean I reported and much of the money remained in Germany the only one thousand pounds could be taken out to merchandise and so forth consequently the Nazis had an interest in seeing the Jews leave that's why he did it but there were no immediate economic entry against before we get a nice called rabbi Sherwin I asked you earlier what the value of this was and you talked about its historical value is there any value in terms of our understanding current events and how we deal with policies and then so-called enemies and in the real world today well I think that it has some relevance regarding say current policy between Israel and other countries how say for example the question which I the question which I think is that the matrix of the book is the question of whether or not the Zionists of the Jewish Agency were primarily interested in building the state or whether they were interested in saving lives where Edwin and I disagree is on this question I think that their major interest was building the state saving lives was only a secondary you know it seems to me that the book makes a great case for the premise of the of many of the Zionists being that the that Hitler was just the latest in a long line of oppressors and that in some respects Hitler was a blessing because it says you've got to get on with making this state otherwise you will run into Hitler's for the rest of existence that's quite true just about 10 years before actually in 1919 most scholars don't know this 100,000 post Jews were annihilated within the span of 18 to 24 months along the Polish to Russian border a plan to ship on Maas 600,000 Polish Jews to Palestine was abandoned because they knew that 200,000 would starve to death within a few months and another 200,000 would be forced to Auriemma great elsewhere and only 200,000 would would be left they could not accept these numbers this time the Zionists wanted to make sure there was a state to come - all right let's go up to another call good evening you're on the air sir let me argue that some might argue that it does matter because the accommodation was made in the absence of what could have been a total boycott had the boycott been effective Hitler could have been put out of business early and the Holocaust could have been prevented mr. black argues that's oversimplified etc but that can be an argument I agree with mr. Pike it is an oversimplification because you have to remember 1933-34 was in the midst of a depression the depression was not only United States but it was worldwide right every country was looking for a market Germany definitely wanted a market race the United States probably has the largest overseas population or half a largest overseas population of a German and it had a president Franklin Roosevelt who was in no mood not to be nice to the Germans right he needed all the business right Sharon I think it's important here to interject one other fact and that has to do with the support many of the unions in this country during the early 30s were giving to the boycott it wasn't simply a Jewish issue one of the first things Hitler did when he came to power was to abolish the unions and therefore the unions in this country say the Longshoremen's Union had an interest in backing the boycott and therefore I think there is some credibility to the claim that the boycott might have been successful and indeed this is the claim that's made by the individual who has written a book PhD dissertation on the boycott professor motion Moshe Gottlieb who claims that the boycott would have been successful and in 33 would have toppled Hitler and consequently the Holocaust Hani Moshe Gottlieb doesn't say that forgive me Moshe goblet Moshe Gottlieb's work which was pioneer work really thought that the boycott would not have been effective because he didn't understand that what Byron says is quite right though and what the caller said is quite right and we must remember this a lot of Jew haters participated in the boycott against Hitler for their own reasons there were Polish anti-semites involved in the in the boycott everybody wants to horn in on the German market and so I like you raised the question I'll hit I'll hit you with your last question in the book was this deal madness or was a genius I'm sorry I never answer that I can't I'll tell you this book was an education for me it was it just was still this book is filled with things which I found extraordinarily helpful this is one who lived in the Hitler I mistake any solution other than the one followed by the Jewish Agency would have been irresponsible we had to fight Hitler on two fronts one the boycott on the other hand we're saving lives the immediate task of saving rather rather Frankel thank you very much rabbi Sherwin Edwin black thank you very much for being with us this evening I'm John Callaway goodnight [Music] [Music] [Music]