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bill gustin here with uh miami-dade fire rescue department training division special projects with daryl higgins dan shaw chief jan shaw and uh our good brother captain sam hibble and we represent different regions of the country i'm from southeast florida originally from chicago daryl's from oakland california on the west coast dan is in the washington beltway and sam is in america's heartland and uh we're all glad to have you our topic today is going to be the role and the mindset of the second engine in other words the role of the second engine and the mindset of the officer of the second engine company um before that i want to give out some shout outs this is november 11th this is veterans day a lot of us have the day off uh because of in memory of the people that have made this country safe and kept our democracy and our freedoms and have made such tremendous sacrifices for us um and for me i never spent any time in the service i know my dad was a world war ii veteran but uh uh everyone today uh thank a vet it is why we enjoy the freedoms that we have and all the confusion that's going on right now in this country it's a mess but at least it's our mess it's our mess we're allowed to make that mess and because we still live in a democracy thanks to our veterans i want to give a shout out to our um uh our partner here that is not here today my partner is mike d mike dugan fdny retired ladder 123. mike is participating in a neighborhood veterans day ceremony i think they're placing some bricks at a memorial with veterans names on it and uh he told me he wouldn't be here i said that's where you need to be captain mike so a big uh big shout out to him uh i also want to thank uh i've been doing some research on my job and i reach out to guys that i think are consummate subject matter experts when it comes to nozzles or hoes or whatever i happen to be looking into at the time this happened to be hosed so i reached out to my friends at key that's uh keep keyfire.com uh long time uh mark lighthill who used to be a uh assistant chief with brevard county uh florida what they call the florida state coast and dave hibben from ten engine in dc and dan shaw i think that's uh that's probably as busy as you get isn't it they're up there they're they they carry that mantle for many years yeah so dave paid his dues and uh but those two guys what gentlemens and they're not out to sell you hoes they're just they're brother firefighters that didn't forget where they came from so i want to give a shout out to my buddies at key uh they're great guys and they're good firefighters uh then i'm gonna give a shout out i just had a wonderful experience this weekend yesterday and today i was asked to give a teach a florida specific class uh to the fire departments on what we call our space coast brevard county cape canaveral melbourne in that area and what i like to do with my classes is get up a day or two early and make an assessment and ride around with an officer take pictures integrate the pictures into my uh presentation to make it specific to their needs and so we had the last two days we had firefighters from palm bay brevard county melbourne satellite beach and cape canaveral and um i got great respect for them the wind coming in off the atlantic ocean and off the banana and what's the other river the indian river is awesome there is no way that they are going to be able to fight a fire in any kind of structure with a frontal attack with that if if the uh if the fire is on the windward side so i take my hat off to you guys and it's not just the wind and structure fires they have a huge wildland interface fire and you know here i'm coming from a real big fire department these are smaller departments but man they do their share of work and i take my hat off to these guys both for structural firefighting and wildland interface so big shout out to those guys uh they're a little bit about yourself and then um uh we'll move on to dan well thank you like uh yeah daryl liggins i think uh you you guys that watch the program know me i'm a captain in oakland california this is my 28th year in the fire service which is hard to believe and i still love this jobs as much as the day i i started i'm still always trying to learn and for those listening as far as always trying to learn this man right here bill gustin had nothing but questions to the panelists prior to starting this program and he has he does have the most gray hair i i think i have less hair than you although you have more gray hair uh i was using just yeah and for somebody that uh surrounds their their uh life and their passion is is this occupation and being in a very busy urban area it it goes to show that there's always more for us to learn if you've how many years you have now in this profession 47 years and daryl don't be humble i did have a question and i had a question for my brother sam wasn't on yet but i had a question for my brother daryl and dan i've got an inquiry from a brother in a northeastern city about how long it takes to fill a dry standpipe uh and get water and adequate pressure to a remote top floor outlet or roof outlet how long is it going to take to completely fill this thing and what are the techniques to be used no experience okay so what do i do this is why networking for those of you that are watching this is what we're doing right now guys you viewers that are watching us right now this is what we do on and offline we network with our buddies nobody can know everything but i know somebody that does know and all i got gotta do is pick up a phone or send them an email and that is what's so wonderful i love this so uh daryl you're a humble guy but uh you did give me some great great advice and i think we ought to address this topic of dry standpipes and manual wet standpipes it could be a topic all of itself dan two questions for you how many since we last talked how many apartment complexes have you burnt down in fairfax county and how many more bugles have you added to your bag damn none to both okay thanks for asking i appreciate your concern yes oh i'm concerned damn someone has to do it hey thanks bill uh always a pleasure to be here dan shaw i'm a deputy chief with fairfax county fire and rescue department and i also have the privilege of uh working with a great collective group of firefighters and fire officers at traditions training one being that little fellow down at the bottom um of really uh having great collective conversation much like what we're doing right here uh and i was also fortunate enough to write 25 to survive with my brother another mother doug mitchell and really looking forward to a great conversation as always and dan you surround yourself with the likes of larry schultz and ricky reilly those we stand on the shoulders of giants yeah absolutely and mr sam captain sam how are we brother i'm good how you guys doing today okay are you on duty sam no no i came off ship this morning okay i like the hat sam i like like the hat sam are you are you did you get yourself back on a ladder company or are you on the rescue now no i'm uh fortunate to be a captain on the rescue also uh fortunate to uh be an instructor with the real combat ready group traditions training and uh you know so i don't know how much i'm gonna be able to offer to this engine stuff but i'm just looking forward to see you break out in hives [Laughter] okay we shouldn't even have this conversation but i'm gonna bring it up because it's like passing a gas in church you know you did it but nobody's too polite to talk about it and that is hurry because engine 7 is going to beat us into the scene in other words who's going to be first in who's going to get the first water whether you're our career or volunteer we call ourselves professional there is no place in today's professional fire service for anybody to be in a race or a contest to see who is first do i always liked being second dude because there's many times but first to company with incomplete information spots in the wrong position whereas if i stage keep myself available then i benefit if there's a mistake made by the first arriving company i also you have an entirely different mindset as the officer of the second do engine and on my way of operating and i think it's dan we've had this discussion offline it is i'm thinking first and foremost does the first do engine have an adequate water supply so i'm on the mobile computer unit looking for hydrant locations hearing which way direction that the company did come in in terms of them laying a line in or out uh chicago for instance when that first arriving company makes an iran it doesn't matter what they're on they will say we're northbound we're westbound because they're a reverse laying fire department so there's a consideration what the other engine's going to do some of the departments like chicago the second engine will back down and then reverse out from the fire scene so uh opposite the direction of the first engine but i i find it a fascinating um discipline of the mindset and the duties of the second engine and i've got some questions for you guys uh but that's pretty much the way that miami-dade operates unless it is just absolutely a pallet storage yard or a lumber yard uh we're going to either forward lay a large diameter hose in now you know we use a full way valve and uh if it's a smaller residence we will um rely on that second engine to lay us a line is there a throw of the dice with that sure there is sure there is uh and when i was first do i want to know is engine 7 on the assignment where are they responding from and are they clear the railroad tracks and if they're not that would influence my decision to stop and lay our own line um now i don't completely agree with the findings the recent findings from ul that state do not delay water application on the fire to establish a water supply residential fires yes the discount auto parts at four o'clock in the morning pushing smoke black smoke or the apartment complex well involved that's under construction you better get you better get yourself a water supply uh any comments your thoughts how do you operate as a second engine in oakland darryl well you mentioned discipline and i think that is the most important part i mean we're all firefighters and anybody taking the time to listen to this you know podcast or uh they want to be on the nozzle they want to be the point of the spear as ray mccormick calls it they want to be in the fire and that's where i want to be that's why i choose to be on the company i'm on as i want to go to fires but with that comes discipline and you have to recognize that at times you're not going to be there most people on the fire ground are going to be supporting that nozzle position and some of those are going to be outside some of those are going to be at the hydra or removing kinks in those uh unglorious positions so uh as a company officer anybody uh in oakland that has worked with me that i have if i have if you're new and i haven't worked with you before i set the tone right at roll call i tell them what i expect if we're first two second do third do or if we're the writ company and i just want to get it out there so there's there's you know no confusion there it's very simple if we're second due we're doing everything and i'll take dennis leguire's facebook page name from hydrant to nozzle we are supporting that first two engine company from the hydrant to the nozzle i can't have somebody that's just aggressive and wanting to get a piece of the action and going and stretching a second line one of the most failed you know efforts i saw was a second new company going and pulling their own line and not assisting the first engine and it was just this snowball effect of of problems because the jobs still have to get done the jobs have to get done but now it's getting done by other people who have other responsibilities so if you're second do be the best second do you can don't crowd the nozzle take the kinks out of the line help feed in hose conserve your air you may go on air later once it's time to go in there make sure they have a water supply make sure the first two engineer or or pump operator whatever you call it is is taken care of and for us it's a little uh well maybe not unique maybe a little more unique for a larger city our second dude officer will often take uh command until arrival of the battalion chief because our battalion chiefs have a longer response time so that's something else we may have to take off the hands of that first uh first new engine but yeah bottom line is we are helping as best we can and the other thing we have to do is tactically we may not have the first two engine doing what we may think should have been done or maybe maybe you would have pulled the two and a half and they pulled an inch and three quarter maybe you pulled an inch they pulled an inch and three quarter and you know you would have gave it a dash with a deck gun first but whatever they choose to do we have to support that we can't be uh have being at odds with uh with what their decision was so basically in a nutshell that's what we're doing supporting the first two engine dan we've had a discussion offline on this um i know you have some pretty strong feelings about that the role of the second engine and also the use of the booster tank for an initial attack yeah um and so i'll go back to i think bill carey always shares i mean you do you right i mean you do what works for your organization um for us us going off a brewster tank uh does doesn't happen this is not something we have been indoctrinated to our experience kind of guides us towards uh typically for us as the first doer lays out the second dude picks up the water the third gets the secondary water fourth picks up that water so we always typically have two water supplies and we're always able to surround a building with the alpha and charlie or geographically how it's set up um but again it's because that's worked for us and because of geographically where we are uh with our staffing the amount of people we get there pretty swiftly that we go to that and i think to your point is yeah when i first came into the department uh 25 years ago um yeah i mean a little more cowboy antics that we saw like racing to get there that has been gone for eons i think that's been gone and you can eliminate that because to your point it's a lack of operational discipline but also it's because we don't explain the why and when we educate our members and get them to understand why it's so important you take this role and get them to change mentality is that your rivals and getting there is not about you we're there for them and so for us to have the best outcome for them if you were going to change your run order and we have very strict operational doctrine when it comes to that is that if you want to add on to a call you're changing the run order you know that battalion chief that our first arriving battalion chief is the one who orchestrates all that because ultimately he's responsible for all and so he's the one that has the final say on hey if i arrive here and i'm clearly in front of that other engine then i'll lay out and we'll be able to get water on fire but you know and some of it comes down to the way you operate like i know when i came to fairfax in 95 it was often different i mean like the driver never laid out we had a layout man where i came out before there but our driver lays out because he's dressed like we are right now he doesn't have turnout gear on it's not cumbersome and typically where our hydrogens are located that last couple seconds when the driver hops out wraps the hydrant gets back in the officer is able to see the structure start to develop what he wants to say on his own scene report and before he leaves that colonel silence give some last orders to the guys or girls in the back to say hey it looks like we got fire number two floor where the case may be uh so for us and again we have some experience where an engine decided not to lay out and went for the rescue and it didn't add favorably um because you know we we look back and i go back to it when we say we explain the why we put it into our operational doctrine and manuals don't solv all the problems all they really are legacy documents to say this is what we've learned this is the way we're going to operate here's our blueprint for success so for us you know knowing the facts right every 64 seconds united states we go to residential building fires the vast majority of the line of duty deaths and close calls we see our current representative that that the best bring to a fire is to put water on that fire so how do we best ensure that we have that continuous water supply again it's because it works for us but that's not to say every single one of our books is the same you know for the single family dwellings and uh townhouses we typically operate this way for your first lays out second picks up the water high rise is a little bit different our strip shopping centers i'm still similar but the second engine has the ultimate responsibility to make sure that they can supply the fdc if it's present so we try to take all that and feed into what the second do engine but their primary responsibility uh in our county is that you are going to ensure that continuous water supply for that first two engine and that means hey look they missed it um because i was a driver for many years and when people i hear people on the radio say hey we're going to hand jack to this hydrant that typically means one of two things you can't read a map book or you hate your driver because trying to hand jack four inch line anywhere up a street to a hydrant is always difficult but sometimes that second new engine has to pick it up so to daryl's point we're very similar is that your job is to make sure we're supporting what that first two engine officer has made is this tactical decision we're operating in offensive mode we're stretching the hose line so they get that taken care of so you have an engine the first engine lays in like a wagon second engine like washington dc used to have two-piece engine company la so and i just want to make sure i understand correctly your second do engine the line is already laid it's wrapped around the hydrant it's left at the hydrant will connect directly with a uh direct suction to the hydrant no so yeah like we don't we don't use a human four-way valve that is just the only thing that's in the layout pack is the ldhos a hydrant wrench uh and so whatever they wrap around it so that driver gets her in a second new engine throws that off makes a quick connection off either his side intake or his front intake and then he hooks up to his discharge and water sent now what happens and most you know i'm sure it's true for all you guys that's at the hydrant you're the second new company uh-huh that's that's the hardest the second duke company does connect to the hydrant and pump the line that was laid to the first hill correct okay um i'm gonna i know what the answer is gonna be because i i like that system let me let me ask you something we're gonna say engine one and engine two engine one's first in lays in a line and is operating on the fire engine two connects the supply line from engine one connects to the hydrant directly taking full advantage of the available water of the hydrant not depending upon hydrant residual pressure because you can boost it with the pump now dan engine one takes a dump engine one takes a dump is it a big problem no no i mean because because again because of our close proximity where our hydrogens are what can engine two do that can be this they may be the attack engine absolutely engine one becomes a big manifold if your intake relief valves are not too set too low now and a lot of times but what happens is they that's that first engine lays out second supplies them they're operating off their booster tank for a while because we have 170 585 gpm nozzles you know the vast majority of time we're not going to be flowing water for i mean it's going to take a minute or two for them to make the stretch to get to the room they open the nozzle and they start putting water on fire so a lot of it is all safeguards that have something to your point line one takes a dump someone they pull the second line they pull two and a half now we're trying to flow four or 500 gallons per minute off a 750 tank and we wonder why we run out of water we have the safeguards but to your point like if we lose that water supply one that second new engine becoming the attack engine just because typically the close proximity of our hydrants we're close enough they can make the stretch our personnel have to know how to stretch long lines and when we mandate two water supplies in every single fire we go to that third and fourth are going to get a secondary water supply they might be coming inside charlie might be coming in a different part of the block because we the other thing we really want to preach is those late arriving companies should not take the same exact response route as the first and second and so you're listening like hey first engine engine one laid out from here engine two picked it up engine three hey we're gonna go around the block and come in this way and hit this other car and that's why chicago announces their direction uh we had some foot from one of our viewers about hand land line uh brother i agree with you uh we're going into an area uh for instance uh heavy industrial we're i'm pretty confident we got a hydrant every 300 feet i'd run every 300 feet man you know it's going to be a piece of cake uh your driver engineer as dan says our drivers are going to be dressed in their station uniform which makes them a lot more agile laying 200 feet of five inch or 200 plus feet of four inch or three inch shouldn't be a problem if the guy's in shape and uh how chicago takes advantage of that is that you've got a hydrant every 300 feet you're never going to be more than 150 feet away so they accordion load i could be wrong on this and if somebody from the chicago area is is watching please correct me i'll stand corrected but the last time i checked the accordion load 150 feet of large diameter supply on their front bumper so that they're not stretching from the back of the rig around to the front if the hydrant happens to be closer than the front so sam any thoughts on second engine yeah we actually operate a lot like oakland does um i think you can do a lot with the second engine particularly if you have some resource issues or delays and um engines coming together kind of like we do so you know we we fight off the tank we know that there's a known life hazard at every fire and that's us so we put water inside at the very least for confinement to protect the search as a minimum um and i know a lot of my friends particularly on the east coast would disagree with that but you know like chief shaw said that's that's how we do it that's us um so the second do engine uh we typically reverse off of about everything um we reverse off and then we'll announce to the truck if there's any problems for them to come in as far as direction if we have a commercial or high rise or anything like that what that does is that ultimately her apartment i'm sorry not high rise but that allows us to actually get a bumper hook up there we have a engine down there it also allows us when we pull up in front of the fire building we can drop off the firefighters in the back they can be assigned to stretch exposure lines get a second line ready to go in when we get some more resources or they can assist that first line so we have some options to uh to make sure the first line gets in place and that we don't get out of control then the officer will hop off and they become the initial incident commander and when the battalion chief gets there they take command then typically that officer can marry up with their firefighter and put a second line in service or continue to help ensure that the first line gets put in service sam uh you're a reverse lane fire department then correct for the most part yes okay so you're using some kind of skid load like reverse horseshoes something like that i'm sorry say it again yeah we pretty much pull everything off the back static load do you have any kind of uh skid load or something like you can pull off like a reverse horseshoe of 150 feet of two and a half or something like that where you can just drop it right at the uh on the street what we'll do is uh we pull up to the back and they will actually throw it under the well they'll pull up next to the engine and they'll put underneath the front or back tire we're talking about the second duel do this yes okay all right and then the second do will connect directly to the hydrant on residential we typically go straight to the hydrant but commercial apartments um connect for pumper hookup okay all right and um something else i wanted to ask you have you ever as the second do ever dump their tank quickly giving it to the first two or dumped it on the fire while they are getting ready to lay out to the hydrant uh that's not something we do if we have hydrant issues then we'll give them tank water well 100 600 gallons off of that engine we have a split way or something like that something that's going to be delayed off the tank but again those are things that have to be announced on the radio because now we're asking guys to not be overly aggressive with the lines they're going to know that they could have interrupted water yeah hey it's uh it's our halfway mark i want to remind everybody this is a special uh veterans day edition of our hangout and uh for all you veterans out there thank god for you and that's why be thanks thanks to you and all the veterans that preceded you because that's why we're in this wonderful country and we're blessed to be able to have a discussion like this and voice our opinions and we wouldn't be able to do it without our veterans i also want to give a shout out to the training staff at miami-dade fire rescue department we bring each other up fellas we bring each other up and my my buddies ricky stevens miguel peralta juan miguel and um pete williams bring me up and we all have our strengths and uh for instance ricky is an excellent firefighter he just participated in the over 40 or over 50 category at the combat challenge um in um uh irving texas ernie i want to give a shout out to that also i sent that video that he shot of the winner of this thing um a guy from austin texas uh reminds me of you sam a uh a guy that's in incredible shape so what they have there guys is they have a the open category and then they got about 40 above 50 and i think above 60 if i but but that was that was amazing but uh i'm uh peter if you're watching uh i sent that to bill carey it is amazing what this guy can do in this combat challenge uh so i wanted to give a shout out to them again i want to give a shout out to key hoes uh that's the co the hose that we use on miami-dade and if you are fortunate enough to have key uh it's not like a you develop a long-term relationship with these folks and as problems and questions arise they don't forget about you it's not just one sale and that's over they want to develop a long lasting relationship with you and there are a lot of good fire hose companies it's just that my department is blessed to have be have purchased keyholes and uh no regrets so um a big shout out to key again i shout out to my buddies in the uh palm bay brevard county melbourne satellite beach and cape canaveral youth folks have your heart in your head in the job uh let me bring up an issue that my dad used to remember died in the wool chicago guy remember a lot of years that he was working there was no booster tanks on apparatus so they had to lead out reverse late and it had to do with the second hose line and he would say bill what good is the second hose line or a backup line if it's coming off the same apparatus as the first line and that apparatus breaks down hard to argue with that logic how would you answer that darrell well i i think that's a that's a a a perfect concern and it's something we don't think about enough because uh modern fire apparatus aren't often you know failing at the scene of incidents but you have to have a way to you know to to back this up our neighbors here in san francisco they do just what chicago do that second engine backs down the block lays out to the hydrant hooks up that second two engine and then they pump to the first two pumpers so you have two pumping apparatus if if you reverse out that second engine uh sam is is painting the same picture of what they do there in wichita um in oakland we we forward lay it's not my favorite way but we forward lay most of the time but we do use a human valve and so we can have an engine company at the humat if there were some incident at least there's a pumper that can ready ready to be put in pump and uh you know take over we don't want to have all our eggs in one one basket where darryl just have a line we're the umat is a four-way valve you matt just happened to be one brand hydra assist is it yeah uh oasis is another one uh from tft for those of us uh that might not be familiar that are viewing this could you explain what the principle is behind the four-way valve yeah and and we've had all different brands and sizes and all that you're right that is just one of them um for it's it's for fire departments that do forward lay as their primary way so when the water comes out of the hydrant it goes through the valve it's redirected down through through the hose line to the pumping apparatus there's some friction loss there so you are hooking up some some friction loss but they're pretty good at that but there's two other you'll see two other uh fittings on there a a female inlet and a male outlet so when a when another company and it could be usually for us it's like a second alarm company they hook up to it so then they take a line from the mail the unused male outlet on the far away and put it into their intake and then they hook a line from a a discharge from their rig into the female intake of the four-way and then you flip a handle that redirects the water from going directly from the hydrant to the the hose line to the engine where it goes to the engine that's hooked up to the four-way through their pump increases in pressure out of their discharge and then through the four way back to the first engine so it's a way to have uninterrupted water supply and have the ability to increase uh pressure but the side benefit is it's not just to increase pressure it's also to add some redundancy in the system if there was a problem with with the uh engine at the scene now the beauty of uh reversing out a second engine over pumping in a four-way is one like sam said you're dropping your crew off they're immediately able to help at the scene you're bringing them to the front door they're jumping off they're helping with a second line assisting with the first line and it only takes one member now to reverse layout to the to the hydrant and you're hooking rather than hooking that hose directly to the hydrant you're hooking it to your discharge and then your your front suction or a jumper line to the to the hydrant added redundancy backing down to the first battery it would be the same as backing down now to pull up to the first engine it's just going to require a wider street but if you're dealing with an alleyway or a narrower street one of the beauties of backing down is identify the hydrant that you're going to um take suction from and spin that cap off and make sure it's good you've already identified your hydrant and you know that it's good back down you have to be careful with backing down of course and two backers they have to stay in the engineer's mirror at all time and if the engineer is backing and at any time that he loses view of both of his backers stop the rig stop it stop the rig so you don't run over your people then do your engines have pre-connected front suctions we do not have front suctions and that is primarily because we're not a agency that you know ever embraced the reverse lay so we have uh jumpers on each each side of the rig and we usually use that okay with some type of intake relief valve so you can you could start off your tank without and then switch over to supply dan any comments on that uh actually the humatt originated in your county area correct dan yeah so i'm born and raised live in baltimore that was two guys from baltimore bob hughes was an engineer in hurley matthews who worked in baltimore county now dan every four-way valve has a direct shot in other words right from the hydrant steamer to the supply line now the four ways that my department uses when we are not supplementing the pressure it's a straight shot through straight shot from the steamer right straight on to the supply line now when we switch over and allow water to go into the suction we pump the other line and that opens up a clapper and once we do that that's a right angle now does that have a lot of friction loss of course it does but um we're there to overcome that frictionless my question to you is is the was the intent of the umat because when you if you operate the umat without pumping through it you've got a right angle it comes down correct and then goes was it the intention that you met to most of the time pump it uh i'll be honestly though like you know when i so i started in howard uh county which is a suburb of baltimore uh and we used them there but we haven't used them in years and really what i thought was a great benefit that is that when you uh finished up with the fire is the second new engine you weren't stuck in the plug you just hit that valve up disconnect and go home but i don't think that was the intention yeah yeah i hear you brother and is there an off position on the um yeah i mean again i haven't seen him in years but yeah he used to have always have a handle that would close that valve that will allow you to change it to feed directly off the hydrant like a gutter line into the attack engine or open it up and now you're taking that water supply and now you're supplying back out to that engine every couple years we won't be able to close a hydrant and if you've got a valve that you can shut off you're golden man yeah now then you're going to have a problem so to to to daryl's point i mean i i think the and this is again when we talk about like the importance of line to your original question bill about if the first engine uh fails and your first line fails you pull the second line off there i mean he's exactly right it's a normalization of deviance nothing bad has ever happened to us in this situation because of how well uh constructed these vehicles are we don't typically see that failure so we don't have a need to change for it uh but you're 100 correct i mean this is where again we we kind of focus that operational discipline on much like when we get the first law entry you don't get through a door take your irons and try it doesn't work you throw it out of tools and say all right i'm done um you have a plan a through z so you try to preach to our personnel is like you got to have a plan for everything to overcome it you know we ask all the time in class how long is your cross like 200 feet why yeah because every fire has always been 155 feet away no because it works for your area but if you can't answer that question you got to start thinking about why do i carry what i carry and does it work for what we have you know we have a 400 foot line that comes off the back and we try to teach to our people and i think you know they come up with some ingenuity on the fire ground your job is the fire always gets a boat it can burn anywhere it wants to it's going to go wherever it wants to so you've got to be able to overcome that so you've got to be able to make a 600 foot line or make a 350 foot line or whatever the case may be but you better have multiple plans for it and it really changed the mentality for our people and semantics right we got rid of the language of backup line uh and we changed the second line so you didn't always think about like i have to pull this line to make sure i back up the first now you pull a second line that might perform a backup to the first line but your goal is to make sure that first line is operational then you think about the second line because two lines are too short or both useless to us yes and and uh dan god rest his soul i worked for a uh a chief that spent two tours in the marines in combat and vietnam and as second engine once we got that supply line to the first engine we would pull the second line and go to the i'm talking about a dwelling now and we would go to the go to the rear now almost always that second line is going to have to be longer than the first because that's the one that's going to an exposure that's the one that's going above that's the one that's going to the rear and then our situation was we would go to the rear with that second line and stand fast uh we could outside vent we could force alternate means of egress but we were there as a standby if because of the wind or more than likely the situation would be that we the house was divided this is a huge problem in immigrant communities where there's no outside indication that you have the house has been divided and you can't get to the rear of that structure that efficiency in the rear through the front door you've got to go around to the rear so this happened so often that our chief was proactive take the line around to the rear all right you're having the difficulty engine seven finding the fire okay engine two come on in through the charlie side and it worked very smoothly it was a smooth transition and you know we said well that's opposing streams bs if you have opposing streams that are operating from different positions and they're communicated and coordinated i don't have a problem with that you're not in a contest with each other you each have a specific reason dan i like that logic i like that logic about quit calling in a backup line just call it a second line well and to your point though i couldn't agree that that's a lack of command and control if you're having opposing lines because no one is is clearly stating what the the plan is the strategy and tactics for what you're doing and you know you hit on a key point that we stress over and over in training is look your first job as that first arriving engine officer is to locate the fire and where do we get this point our bike locate confined compartment extinguish right we focus so much on the extinguishment effort how about we focus on that locate where the fire is confined to compartment which exactly what you're talking about line here line here line here now put the fire out let's keep it contained to the trucks and rescues and sam and go to award days when they pull someone out there's a little rescue right well you know that sam is a little insecure and maybe there's just a little bit too much praise to uh our brother dan today but um sam uh i i will we could we could totally so i was going to wait later sam but um i had no idea you could read me compliment you on something sam i always look forward to whatever hat you're going to wear but i have to tell you sam i have feelings too and i get insecure so not to be outdone i got this for you sam okay dustin all right and i can tie it around my chin here it's actually on backwards you know that but sam if you'd like i could get you one of these it would say gusting on it but you could i would appreciate the advertising and then if you want you can like snap it up like this like an aussie oh yes like a fashion show but sam listen we love you here let me just see here how does that look excellent what's that what was that cowboy's name from the toy story i want to quote mike dugan with something we all operate a little bit differently and captain mike who's at a veterans day function right now and that's where he needs to be has a great saying daryl you don't have to be wrong for me to be right i don't have to be wrong for you to be right daryl there's a reason why each department does what they do and as long as they've given it some thought like for instance i will never recommend the size diameter of hose for standpipe operations to any department other than my own now do i recommend that each department do their homework measure look at their systems are they dry are they well maintained the age of their buildings um are they sprinklered compartment all of those are factors that i don't know that i have no control over so i'm not going to recommend any size hose to you and i'm not going to recommend any size configuration or layout of that host that's up for you to decide but what i am saying is you better have some kind of plan and you better have a rational reason based on research in training and development why you do the things that you do and just because the neighboring department does it doesn't necessarily mean it's right for you however having said that you do have to worry about your neighboring departments when it comes to interoperability dan shaw for instance was had a big hand in the north northern virginia high-rise regional high-rise plan correct dan another compliment for dan well i can't take credit look we've had interoperability in automatically with 14 departments in 75. having said that you know you don't do what the other department does there are certain situations where you need to know what the other departments are doing and if they are on automatic aid there's very few departments in the united states that can handle a significant high-rise fire by themselves so you're going to have help and you're going to have to have the same terminology the same tactics and interoperability with hose threads and some type of interoperability with the way that you're deploying the hose that let's don't mistake that with just configuring your apparatus or buying equipment uh based upon what the big city next door is doing so sam um as a squad when you're rolling in as a squad do you ever are you ever just a tactical reserve that stands by and perhaps is not deployed is not deployed or um is then subsequently given an order based upon something that may be unforeseen so you're actually a tactical reserve to that the incident commander um we depending on the incident commander and depending when we come in so the uh the residential fire we had yesterday had a room over a double car garage we're a second do we know that it's a garage fire they announced they don't have a man door to the garage except for the interior when we come in i just announced the incident commander hey we've got your saws we can open that up for you we don't tell them what we're going to do we kind of suggest it they say yeah get that thing opened up and then we ended up getting a truck assigned to us and being in charge of opening up and getting vertical ventilation so then i started coordinating with truck one to make that happen uh if we come in really late to something then we will just announce that we're on their scene and ask them where they need help we really are a resource to be plugged in wherever they're having problems or wherever they think we can be best utilized my battalion chief the regardless of order he's pretty much told us on commercial buildings we will be uh opening up and softening that structure for him yeah and and um we talk about well the life hazard the life hazard you see was calling me you know it's i have legions of adoring females that won't leave me alone right we're in the middle of a a hangout but um i'm not a big fan of large area search uh to me if it's a commercial even if it's an assembly people are aware there's a fire the reason that they're trapped in that nightclub in that illegal nightclub is that every door other than the front entrance door where they're checking ids and in some neighborhoods frisking you they're locked block barred so if you're going to have people trapped like cord wood at doors it's going to be because you're going to have to get to the outside get around to the sides and the rear with saws very saw intensive and get those freaking doors open now the reason i asked about that that's in the finest traditions of squad companies uh i have log books sam from my dad's time on squad 2 in the 50s before they had radios and in the finest of firefighter fire department traditions they would respond on a box number and report to the chief of fifth or sixth battalion and most of the entries were stand by but then there were those entries stood by reported to the chief of the sixth battalion order to take a 35-foot ladder and uh put it up to the third floor for engine 39 to evacuate or take a second line off with engine 28 so do you ever take a second line third line if you're on the squad i haven't so far um our engine companies uh we we've started to develop a culture where engine companies take pride in engine work and truck companies take pride in uh truck work uh for the most part you know we generally get assigned ventilation opening up or search yeah those are the three things we do yeah um now you ever make like a small triangle if you got a lot of fire behind a garage door overhead door you ever make a small triangle and shove the nozzle in first and knock down the fire and then go about the business of making a firefighter size opening no if it's a uh if it's a low enough door then what we'll do is we'll just uh stick a roof hook or a halogen up on the top of the overhead door and just kind of pry down on it and open that up kind of give it a little bit of a horseshoe as a fulcrum and then use the roof hook to pry up the bottom of the door uh yeah actually we did that uh on both doors yesterday so we don't have to make the triangle at the very bottom but yeah okay okay coming in at the top of the garage and just bending that down a little bit that allows them to actually get some water bounce things um one thing you've got tornadoes in wichita kansas but no hurricanes because we would never be able to do that in miami-dade and south florida your wind bracing is significant and we're not going to be able to do that on our larger doors particularly if they're older older older commercial doors had more substantial wind bracing to carry the length of the door uh the engineering now we can have some small diameter wind bracing and still have a 20-foot door yeah yeah it just depends on where you're at one thing i would like to uh back up on we got time brother go ahead is this um one of the benefits to uh that second do engine taking that initial command for us is when they do get assigned to be fire attack if they end up being fire attack group leader it bodes to exactly what you said in the beginning the first line inside can't always see the true conditions they have limited visibility they may not be able to see the extension and so what that allows that second engine to do is actually get a full assessment of where that second line needs to be or where that first line needs to try to get you know sam there's two size-ups that happen on every fire must happen on every fire inside and outside and um if they are not in agreement somebody's got it wrong so somebody's got around it's usually the company inside to what you're saying um when i was teaching in uh up the state here they have walk through pump compartments and the main reason they have the walk-through pump compartments is when that first arriving comp engine is there operating by themselves when the line goes in let's say the front door the only set of eyes there is the engineer at the pump panel and he can see or she can see the building now what are they looking for they're looking for a progressively uh lowering of the neutral plane they're looking for an increase in velocity and pressure of the smoke things that the company operating inside on their hands and knees in limited visibility or zero visibility don't see so that is their number one reason it's not to keep them out of the ice or snow ring there is no ice or snow it also allows the engineer direct access to the deck gun right there so i never thought about that so i was we were teaching a class west of fort lauderdale in uh sunrise they have side mounted pump panels and on their new pumpers they have a camera mounted on the right side of the apparatus so that the engineer at the pump panel is looking at a screen and looking at the fire building same same concept outside eyes so sam i'm with you man and you know mike dugan will be the first one to tell you he said it publicly publicly and privately you k ow they don't do that in new york city everybody has their assigned tasks and they do that to quote mike to have a first arriving company officer take charge and being physically involved in some type of action you're setting the poor guy or girl up for uh failure you actually are that's mental overload man so i like your concept of having that second due company uh take command uh pending the arrival of a uh a greater chief now if i'm if i'm taking command as a second duke company you better believe i'm conversing with that first new company if i'm a second dude company uh an engine i want to know was the first line stretch and if not why wasn't it and it's usually because they need a hand they've got multiple corners they stretch short multiple obstacles multiple parked cars they need a hand so first and foremost and hey fdny has five people on an engine they don't they'll cheat not hesitate to team up two three engine companies to get that first critical line into operation and daryl yes sir so can i have one thing that the command thinks i mean obviously i don't get the privilege of what these guys get to do every day riding that right front seat of an engine and you're 100 correct um is the commander's intent for our personnel as always there should never ever be a gap in command we can't have a gap in command now how we execute that is obviously dependent upon a fire i mean it fires a dynamic situation you gotta have the dynamic decision making so when a first engine arrives yes they have command until they are relieved of command but they might be in command of themselves if it's a single engine house and so our system how it works for us is that that battalion chief while he's not in command he has a level of intervention that he has to impose on the incident because he is going to be in charge of that incident when he gets there so it's incumbent upon him and that first engine calls the end of their own scene report is a command statement request to transfer command or i'm establishing command defensive action he can have command until the chief gets there they're making a stretch going down a hallway chief will be engaged and need to transfer command the chief decides hey i want the second to take it in some cases our third does because our third is responsible for side charlie that guarantees two lines in place the third is quickly arriving there with the second but the the overall or overall arching theme i can give you from my perspective is we can never ever have a gap in command it's a top five in every line of duty death is a lack of command and control uh and to your point thirteen points is always make sure that your strategy and tactics match what you see and what you hear so when our first engine calls me daryl calls and says i got the fire knocked and i still see fire blowing out of two windows they're not matching because he can't see that because he's in zero visibility and that's where nc commanders whatever your rank is you have to be an instant commander you got to have command presence you got to make sure you have strategy and tactics to apply regardless if you're a captain of lieutenant or you're you're a chief officer but yeah i just wanted to share because it really is just such a important part to me of when we understand our operations is that command is it's not as sexy as doing a search and pulling hose lines but it's so vitally important to what we do now there's true clearly there are times that the first arriving company should take a command position which means mobile command climb up on the roof of the apparatus for a point of view that would be an mci multiple casualty incident a emerging hazmat operation or the uh apartment complex that is beyond the suppression capabilities of the first alarm assignment it's already uh a conflagration definitely there's times that you're going to have to take take command with that um but again whatever your department does has to be done by thought and in figuring it out in your own situation uh the longer a company has to operate by themselves the greater the possibility they're going to have to take command somebody's got to be informing these come now got another question dan do your chiefs have drivers um i do as the ops deputy the battalions do not so they have it's very taxi for them to try and navigate traffic listen to communications um and then try to make some assessments it is and it is and it's that's a shame yeah uh my chiefs don't either but that is a shame and it's not like the public thinks that they're like somebody's drive chauffeuring around the chief yeah it's allowing the chief to become engaged in the incident before he or she gets on the scene intervention right basin at mcu looking at pre-fire plans looking at the run assignment it's really sad how about you sam your chiefs have a driver we don't and um you know we're i don't think we're gonna get them anytime soon even though we recognize the need for them uh chief uh riley and uh chief schultz i don't wanna mess up their uh statistic but i believe they uh point out that 60 of um fatalities end up because of task saturation at the command level whereas they're missing radio traffic and having a cheap driver does exactly that it lets you have a better assessment of what's going on it allows you to manage your component of that and allows that chief's driver to help with radio control or go do face-to-face so we definitely recognize the need for it but particularly right now i think we're 21 of our cities contracting coped right now so all of our hospitals are full um the aircraft industry is not going to recover anytime soon and that is our primary uh bread and butter here so uh we're not gonna get them yeah yeah um daryl do your chiefs have drivers uh i i believe it was 1986 when we lost our chiefs drivers and it's a shame because our last line of duty death on the fire ground it was listed as a as a factor uh and a recommendation to have chief's drivers and i just think you know not enough fire departments really value it because we have so many members that were not part of their their organization when we had drivers and and you know i remember uh i met andrew fredericks one time in 2001 uh he came to our training tower and did some some uh did a talk and it had me thinking kind of on this topic a member talked about the staffing levels how they have such high staffing and he says people think of new york city as a department that that has very high staffing but we've merely retained what most cities had and when i think of that it is very true it's true for us and i think that most cities did have drivers and we lost it and we did have more people on the engine we had more battalions or trucks um i want to roll back and talk about a couple of things on this uh second do engine topic and that that is talking about the command and uh goes along with you know chiefs uh you know not having the support they they need or a lot of cities not having battalions close enough to where their fires are our second new engine generally does take uh command until the rival of the chief however there is a factor there you have to have a a crew that can work uh you know somewhat independently i can't have two probationaries in the back or you know at roll call i'm telling the chief hey if we're second do i you know i i got two probes today and you know basically that's not going to happen because our our engineers helping that first to engineer and if i need them to you know get a line here or there or do something independently i'm not going to be able to do that so i may just have them like i said just assisting that first two engine but on an occasion if the first two engine hey they have maybe a short stretch they got one line and we just need another line uh backed up or maybe a line going to the floor above i don't want to have just two uh you know non-experienced members doing that on their own the other thing is how are we talking to them on the radio and every organization will have something a little different now i'm on engine 13. if i become command and i say we're international command i'm establishing international command i'm naming my crew engine 13 until i'm relieved by the battalion chief because we have to make this very clear and i i tell them that hey guys i'm in command you're engine 13 until you know until i come back to them and then once the the chief takes that command i become engine 13 and then they're back to we assign hydrant and nozzle in the morning so they're back to you know nozzle 13 lead off 13 is what we call them so make that very clear the other thing that i i think is i i do want to reiterate what what dan said about the backup fire attack terminology i never liked that as a company officer i thought it was very non-specific if someone says you're you're back up fire attack that can mean many things but it doesn't it doesn't let command absolutely know what they're doing backup fire attack could be you're stretching a second line to behind the first line it could be that you just have your your staffing supporting the first line to others it may be that you're stretching a line to the floor to the floor above or or somewhere or to an exposure if whatever you want them to do be very specific about what you want them to do engine 13 upon your arrival we need a second line to the floor above now you know what they do and there's no question to them of what their tasks are but the backup fire attack terminology is is vague enough to cause uh miscommunication all right i'm glad that we addressed that we're going to wrap this thing up uh chief dan any final thoughts i just want to give all the praise and attention to sam because he feels like he hasn't got no great conversation as always um you know i always come back to what we talked about here before right like you hear you have collected four different fire departments that do things similar but just a little bit different anyone who's listening and watching this you do you you do what works for you you know when i get to teach with doug and he's got you know 85 guys on a live truck you can't do what they do and you know some departments can't do what we do but you find the core your principles what we do and see if you can apply it and at least generate the conversation i think it goes back what you said bill is at a minimum what we always want is thinking firefighters because the fires we go to are dynamic and we have to be dynamic in our decision making and you gotta have something to pull from that's based upon experience and knowledge and the wisdom you get from others so again another great conversation love to share with you guys and you know most importantly learn from each other great sam any final thoughts sir yeah i i hope that as a fire service uh we don't disagree on the objectives um we just are going to disagree on how we get there i i love what um captain dugan says and i i think that's spot on but i also really like what you kind of uh hit on a little bit earlier you've got to understand the pros and cons to what you do there's not a perfect system but if you truly evaluate it you can say that their system works great because of this and it doesn't work so great because of that our system we chose because of this but we understand when we do that we're giving up this yeah and sam why don't you uh do you have any pointers because i know that you are a subject matter expert on we got thanksgiving coming up and uh so i know that uh you know you're kind of a country guy if you're in kansas so you got any pointers on frying turkeys sam because i know you do it uh i'll tell you what i try not to leave the city unless it's on an airplane i don't like the country i like the city yeah well i i really think that most most uh of your turkey frying incidents may be because the of operator error because of impairment i actually think i i do know this even though we don't do it you're supposed to fill it up with water first yeah and find your uh grease line then pull the turkey out and fill it with grease yeah but um head is no joke so uh my i'm lucky i'm gonna go spend thanksgiving with my son and he is a he is an expert at it and it's wonderful so uh just a shout out again to my buddies my brothers at key mark lighthill and uh uh dave hibben from dcfd uh engine 10 and i want to thank you for your continuing advice professional advice and your support of miami-dade fire and um my buddies on the space coast there brevard county melbourne satellite beach and cape canaveral uh i tell these guys i hope this is politically correct i tell these guys when i become your friend when i become your friend it's like herpes my friendship never goes away now it may you may think it goes away but then it'll flare up every once in a while when you're under stress was that okay sam quite eloquent i i think you're uh legitimately grandfathered into saying whatever i'm just impressed with your medical knowledge of herpes that's right all right so guys uh until hey and one reason i'm thankful on thanksgiving is because of being able to participate with you wonderful guys and and our buddies that are not here today uh clark lamping jason hobelman and uh captain mike d so you can't make it every month guys don't worry about that i also want to thank our friends that uh participated and uh with the hashtags online so uh until next month uh have a safe happy healthy thanksgiving and may god bless and keep you safe in our most noble of professions